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Can we combine all the recent 40k threads into one giant atomic thread of destiny? Everyone of these of late has devolved into pretty much the same set of argument/counter argument.....
Not here. The one day I leave my house when it's sunny, thinking "I don't need a jacket, the sun's out!"... the temperature drops to 50 degrees (F) and it rains all damned day.
This is why hope is the first step on the road to disappointment, and is why it is a lesson best not forgotten.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Davor wrote:Phase? No I don't think so, just the small majority is the loudest as it was before.
There is a definite uptick, though. Not too long ago, there was a complaint thread here or there. Now there are a dozen on the first two pages of the general discussion forum. Before it was a trickle of annoyance. Now it's a flood of nerdrage.
There's something different this time.
Jaceevoke wrote:I disagree with this on so many levels, first off it is not only the "people who take the game as a serious strategic exercise" that are complaining. It seems that people from all over the hobby are not exactly thrilled with 40k/GW right now from the painters to hardcore gamers.
Tell me, why are casual players up in arms? Why are only-painters raging in "40k is broken" and "GW is satan" threads? Can they not paint or hobby anymore?
No, the only people who are actually angry are those people who want 40k to be a strategy game where everyone starts out on an even playing field, in a game that accurately determines player skill. Those who use words like "compete" to mean anything but, and nothing more than "I want to win".
That one narrow section of 40k players, overrepresented on forums, are those who are getting so angry. Talk to someone for whom the point of the 40k exercise isn't about winning games, and you'll find either a lack of rage, or someone lying about not caring if they win games.
Jaceevoke wrote:Also what is wrong with treating 40k like a strategic exercise?
People who want 40k to be a strategy game always get angry and burned out over time (which is why there's always complaint threads), but eventually they move on to real strategy games, or in some other way just stop playing 40k. Or, of course, they whine on forums, yearning for a game that would ruin 40k for the rest of us.
Jaceevoke wrote:Further more is it a necessarily good thing that some of the players are being forced to chose between being forced to change how they enjoy the game or leaving?
A game can't be everything to everyone. If such a thing existed, then we'd all just be playing that one game. Instead, a game makes certain sacrifices to make it better for some people and not for another.
Serious strategists who chose 40k mistakenly believing it was a serious strategy game are having the wool pulled back off their eyes, and are being forced to see the game as it is. Really, there's no good option other than to change what you want from 40k, or play something else. Or, as mentioned, crusade against the people who were already playing 40k in the way it was intended to be played in the first place.
Phase? How long does it last? Since I found 40K forums about 10 years or so ago, same thing has been going on. Back then it was GW sucks, GW prices are too high, GW sucks, they don't listen to their fans, GW doesn't give what it's fans want, GW releases things to slow and far apart, GW has no clue on how to run a business. 10 years later it's the same thing except, GW releases stuff too soon.
Phase? No I don't think so, just the small majority is the loudest as it was before. Maybe it's new people who complain/whine but as more things change, the more things stay the same.
Emphasis mine.
This is my all-time favourite gripe honestly. Expensive? Sure it's not like this is a cheap thrills hobby, but it's still overall a decently priced one when you compare it to anything like say ice hockey. Even my uncle spends upwards of $1000/season (typically about 4 months of games + upto 1 month play-offs) for his rec league.
When I played competitively, my family would be spending upwards of at least $3-4k minimum per year, between the registration fees, driving to tournaments/games/practices, upgrading/replacing equipment, extra practice ice, tape/sticks/skate sharpenings etc... Then add in another $1k+ during the off-season for hockey camps/summer league play to keep my skills sharp & constantly improving.
GW is cost-wise a decent middle ground hobby. It's not exactly cheap, but it's not what I'd call expensive either when you have hobbies like rec ice hockey, paintball, console/PC gaming, etc...
Ailaros wrote: Tell me, why are casual players up in arms? Why are only-painters raging in "40k is broken" and "GW is satan" threads? Can they not paint or hobby anymore?
No, the only people who are actually angry are those people who want 40k to be a strategy game where everyone starts out on an even playing field, in a game that accurately determines player skill. Those who use words like "compete" to mean anything but, and nothing more than "I want to win".
That one narrow section of 40k players, overrepresented on forums, are those who are getting so angry. Talk to someone for whom the point of the 40k exercise isn't about winning games, and you'll find either a lack of rage, or someone lying about not caring if they win games.
I couldn't be less interested in "competing."
I am on record as stating that playing 40K is some thing I do with the minis I paint, not a game I paint minis in order to play.
While I do not 'rage' nor 'hate' because they are terms that people like you use in order to try and undermine people who disagree with their views, I still find GW's apparent disinterest in making a game which keeps everyone happy (or happier) baffling, I also think that a more closely balanced 40K would be a better 40K, and if it were, perhaps I'd be more interested in taking it more seriously, and subsequently invest more heavily in pursuing it as such.
So there you go, I am the player you describe, you do not speak for me, and you are wrong.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Phase? How long does it last? Since I found 40K forums about 10 years or so ago, same thing has been going on. Back then it was GW sucks, GW prices are too high, GW sucks, they don't listen to their fans, GW doesn't give what it's fans want, GW releases things to slow and far apart, GW has no clue on how to run a business. 10 years later it's the same thing except, GW releases stuff too soon.
Phase? No I don't think so, just the small majority is the loudest as it was before. Maybe it's new people who complain/whine but as more things change, the more things stay the same.
Emphasis mine.
This is my all-time favourite gripe honestly. Expensive? Sure it's not like this is a cheap thrills hobby, but it's still overall a decently priced one when you compare it to anything like say ice hockey. Even my uncle spends upwards of $1000/season (typically about 4 months of games + upto 1 month play-offs) for his rec league.
When I played competitively, my family would be spending upwards of at least $3-4k minimum per year, between the registration fees, driving to tournaments/games/practices, upgrading/replacing equipment, extra practice ice, tape/sticks/skate sharpenings etc... Then add in another $1k+ during the off-season for hockey camps/summer league play to keep my skills sharp & constantly improving.
GW is cost-wise a decent middle ground hobby. It's not exactly cheap, but it's not what I'd call expensive either when you have hobbies like rec ice hockey, paintball, console/PC gaming, etc...
I am on record as stating that playing 40K is some thing I do with the minis I paint, not a game I paint minis in order to play.
While I do not 'rage' nor 'hate' because they are terms that people like you use in order to try and undermine people who disagree with their views, I still find GW's apparent disinterest in making a game which keeps everyone happy (or happier) baffling, I also think that a more closely balanced 40K would be a better 40K, and if it were, perhaps I'd be more interested in taking it more seriously, and subsequently invest more heavily in pursuing it as such.
So there you go, I am the player you describe, you do not speak for me, and you are wrong.
Likewise,
I've played in a few tournaments, but these were minor affairs and it was a "just to see what it was like" thing. I'm a casual player through and through that simply wants a balanced ruleset.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 21:48:24
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
"Tell me, why are casual players up in arms? Why are only-painters raging in "40k is broken" and "GW is satan" threads? Can they not paint or hobby anymore? "
I never said they were, all I said is that they are not exactly thrilled. And I didn't even say all of them were like that, I have seen plenty of painters and casual players who are happy. But I have also seen painters and casual players who had some annoyances.
No, the only people who are actually angry are those people who want 40k to be a strategy game where everyone starts out on an even playing field, in a game that accurately determines player skill. Those who use words like "compete" to mean anything but, and nothing more than "I want to win".
Personal note, I like to compete with other players, but I really couldn't give two gaks about winning or losing (outside of tournaments). In general, are there people who think that way? Probably. But does that mean everyone does? Based on what I have seen and heard, I'm going to go with no.
"Because it isn't."
Pointing out your own work, doesn't prove your point. It just further states and solidifies your argument.
"People who want 40k to be a strategy game always get angry and burned out over time (which is why there's always complaint threads), but eventually they move on to real strategy games, or in some other way just stop playing 40k. Or, of course, they whine on forums, yearning for a game that would ruin 40k for the rest of us."
First what is the definition of strategy? "a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.". What is the definition of a strategy game? "A strategy game or strategic game is a game (e.g. video or board game) in which the players' uncoerced, and often autonomous decision-making skills have a high significance in determining the outcome."
I don't know about everyone else but that sounds pretty similar to 40k, in that you do have to either take objectives or kill the opponent models. Both of which are decisions you make. However I am the first to admit that 40k is not a very serious or in-depth strategy game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/24 22:16:18
Everything I say, barring quotes and researched information, is my personal opinion. Not fact.
"Being into 40k but not the background is like being into porn but not masturbation..." - Kain
"I barely believe my dice are not sentient and conspiring against me." - knas ser
I not only like the game, but don't mind the prices. It is a game based on a product that gets sold once, and then never has to be repurchased. This same product is only purchased by a small portion of the population, not only because it is expensive, but also because it is sold unpainted, assembled, and requires a good degree of skill to make presentable.
Though this is not a factor for those of us that saw the modeling side of the hobby as a fun way to express our views of the 40k universe, or those of us that saw the need to paint the models as a challenge that we could rise to. For those that have little time, imagination (believe me there are more people without it then with it), or confidence in their painting skills, the hobby is woefully inaccessible. Even if the models were sold at a third their current costs the number of people playing would not increase more than 50% for these reasons alone, and this lowered price would result in the utter destruction of GW as a company.
I never minded the price hikes. Not only did they coincide with markedly better and more customizable models, but with more armies, and more fluff. The price has also barely altered more than could be explained by the alteration in the value of money in a post 2008 market collapse world. The price changes are very reasonable and understandable to this end.
As for the rules changes, they represented new challenges to be overcome, and thank god for them. My Tau army is no longer relegated to hiding behind Devilfish transports like it was in 5th. The allies rules has made fluff easier to write for my armies, and more options possible. For the first time since I started playing I can actually field four fast attack in the same army, something I have wanted to do since third edition as fast skimmers are and have always been my favorite options. On top of this I am utterly thrilled with the addition of fortifications, turning tournaments into fluffy fights, and the inclusion of Imperial Knights for the first time in regular 40k, something that has profoundly changed my local meta by finally stopping people from spamming ridiculous amounts of the same unit and forcing them to diversify their army to deal with this new threat.
I not only love where GW is going, but also have never had this much fun playing at any point since I started playing fourteen years ago. I admit I had a dark period when I first fought a Farsight bomb, Missileside spam, and Serpent spam. But once I transitioned my army from something that would have been great in my old codex to something that works with this new one I have found that the same fluffy list (With a few small changes of course) I used to use in fourth edition is not only capable of placing in tournaments, but able to win.
Adaptation and a clear head are key to survival in a hobby like 40k. This is not Magic, GW can't force us to buy new models to make more money. The company that makes our game can not count on having a reliable income. Instead they must tempt us with new and better things, and because of this we should see more new codexes, more new models, and even more interesting additions to the game. I for one welcome these changes, and I attribute this primarily to my understanding of how owning a business works.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/24 22:22:12
Phase? How long does it last? Since I found 40K forums about 10 years or so ago, same thing has been going on. Back then it was GW sucks, GW prices are too high, GW sucks, they don't listen to their fans, GW doesn't give what it's fans want, GW releases things to slow and far apart, GW has no clue on how to run a business. 10 years later it's the same thing except, GW releases stuff too soon.
Phase? No I don't think so, just the small majority is the loudest as it was before. Maybe it's new people who complain/whine but as more things change, the more things stay the same.
Emphasis mine.
This is my all-time favourite gripe honestly...
Cool misdirection. Now compare their products to competition. Just because the general hobby is cheaper than other hobbies doesn't make something overpriced. Hint: Start with the tools, work your way through the paint brushes, then paints, then rulebooks, and finally to the models. I could give you examples of each where you are paying for the "GW" name but little actual quality.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 22:13:47
As a "Casual Players" I am not complaning about the "Competative Gamers". I mostly Complain when the "Competative Gamers" tell me to go away becouse not being a "Competative Gamer" my point of veiw is worthless.
Anpu42 wrote: As a "Casual Players" I am not complaning about the "Competative Gamers". I mostly Complain when the "Competative Gamers" tell me to go away becouse not being a "Competative Gamer" my point of veiw is worthless.
Casual gamers are great. I wish my brain was wired like that so I couldn't care. When I see numbers, they gotta be optimized. I build spreadsheets on this stuff. It's fun for me, homework for others.
However, I do realize that other games don't worry about this sort of split playerbase. They are just "gamers" of said game. If we stopped pointing fingers at each other and as 40k fans asked for it to be better from the company that produces it, we'd all be much better off.
Anpu42 wrote: As a "Casual Players" I am not complaning about the "Competative Gamers". I mostly Complain when the "Competative Gamers" tell me to go away becouse not being a "Competative Gamer" my point of veiw is worthless.
It's the fact that you are not exposed to competitive builds on a regular basis. And you often make anecdotal arguments. It doesn't matter if YOUR tac marines do well; many others' tac marines are getting melted like butter trivially.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 22:41:27
Anpu42 wrote: As a "Casual Players" I am not complaning about the "Competative Gamers". I mostly Complain when the "Competative Gamers" tell me to go away becouse not being a "Competative Gamer" my point of veiw is worthless.
Yea, I hate those guys too. But then most of the same people look down on people that play card games, or other table top games, and because of this no one likes them. This is one of the reasons why people that play games like Magic, Yugio, Pokemon, or Card Wars treat me with hostility when I show up to the shop on a day that isn't 40k day to play. Just makes the whole hobby look bad and elitist. I never minded competitively minded players, but treating someone else as inferior for not sharing your mindset is just childish.
Anpu42 wrote: As a "Casual Players" I am not complaning about the "Competative Gamers". I mostly Complain when the "Competative Gamers" tell me to go away becouse not being a "Competative Gamer" my point of veiw is worthless.
Casual gamers are great. I wish my brain was wired like that so I couldn't care. When I see numbers, they gotta be optimized. I build spreadsheets on this stuff. It's fun for me, homework for others.
However, I do realize that other games don't worry about this sort of split playerbase. They are just "gamers" of said game. If we stopped pointing fingers at each other and as 40k fans asked for it to be better from the company that produces it, we'd all be much better off.
Well said sir.
PS: I too enjoy mathhammer. I have notebooks filled with page after page of statistical evaluations and considerations, I find it oddly stimulating.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/24 22:45:23
Anpu42 wrote: As a "Casual Players" I am not complaning about the "Competative Gamers". I mostly Complain when the "Competative Gamers" tell me to go away becouse not being a "Competative Gamer" my point of veiw is worthless.
Yea, I hate those guys too. But then most of the same people look down on people that play card games, or other table top games, and because of this no one likes them. This is one of the reasons why people that play games like Magic, Yugio, Pokemon, or Card Wars treat me with hostility when I show up to the shop on a day that isn't 40k day to play. Just makes the whole hobby look bad and elitist. I never minded competitively minded players, but treating someone else as inferior for not sharing your mindset is just childish.
Anpu42 wrote: As a "Casual Players" I am not complaning about the "Competative Gamers". I mostly Complain when the "Competative Gamers" tell me to go away becouse not being a "Competative Gamer" my point of veiw is worthless.
Casual gamers are great. I wish my brain was wired like that so I couldn't care. When I see numbers, they gotta be optimized. I build spreadsheets on this stuff. It's fun for me, homework for others.
However, I do realize that other games don't worry about this sort of split playerbase. They are just "gamers" of said game. If we stopped pointing fingers at each other and as 40k fans asked for it to be better from the company that produces it, we'd all be much better off.
Well said sir.
PS: I too enjoy mathhammer. I have notebooks filled with page after page of statistical evaluations and considerations, I find it oddly stimulating.
I do have a personal Loathing of Mathhammer.
I do love Mathhammer + Feild Testing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 00:01:22
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I not only like the game, but don't mind the prices. It is a game based on a product that gets sold once, and then never has to be repurchased. This same product is only purchased by a small portion of the population, not only because it is expensive, but also because it is sold unpainted, assembled, and requires a good degree of skill to make presentable.
Though this is not a factor for those of us that saw the modeling side of the hobby as a fun way to express our views of the 40k universe, or those of us that saw the need to paint the models as a challenge that we could rise to. For those that have little time, imagination (believe me there are more people without it then with it), or confidence in their painting skills, the hobby is woefully inaccessible. Even if the models were sold at a third their current costs the number of people playing would not increase more than 50% for these reasons alone, and this lowered price would result in the utter destruction of GW as a company.
Pulling unsubstantiated numbers out of the air! FTW!!
The fact is the prices increase all the time, and there's good evidence that the volume drops too. There can, and have, been threads dedicated to this topic, but it isn't unreasonable to think that the reverse may also apply. Even only if those ""with imagination" were able to do more and more elaborate kit bashes because the stuff was more affordable.
I never minded the price hikes. Not only did they coincide with markedly better and more customizable models, but with more armies, and more fluff. The price has also barely altered more than could be explained by the alteration in the value of money in a post 2008 market collapse world. The price changes are very reasonable and understandable to this end.
Rubbish. One price hike coincided with Finecast for feths sake, the Stormraven went up by ~25% when 6th hit, it became a flier and fliers were the new hotness. You only have to then look a little further and see what other companies are doing in comparative materials and the prices they're selling that GW doesn't offer reasonable value, neither does it offer premium quality.
As for the rules changes, they represented new challenges to be overcome, and thank god for them. My Tau army is no longer relegated to hiding behind Devilfish transports like it was in 5th. The allies rules has made fluff easier to write for my armies, and more options possible. For the first time since I started playing I can actually field four fast attack in the same army, something I have wanted to do since third edition as fast skimmers are and have always been my favorite options. On top of this I am utterly thrilled with the addition of fortifications, turning tournaments into fluffy fights, and the inclusion of Imperial Knights for the first time in regular 40k, something that has profoundly changed my local meta by finally stopping people from spamming ridiculous amounts of the same unit and forcing them to diversify their army to deal with this new threat.
I'll paraphrase what someone else said in response to allies "anyone looking to do it for fluff or storytelling purposes didn't need permission from the rulebook to do it, all including it in the rules did was open it up to abuse from the element of the player base that looks for that sort of thing." One could argue the same for Fortifications or anything else that 6th has (re)introduced. If you're playing for fluffy and have a good imagination, why do you need permission from the rulebook to do these things?
While I agree with your point that new rules and changes to the game are, theoretically, a good thing, execution of those rules changes is of fundamental importance, and this hasn't been something that GW has ever been too great at, but is getting woefully poor as 6th matures.
I not only love where GW is going, but also have never had this much fun playing at any point since I started playing fourteen years ago. I admit I had a dark period when I first fought a Farsight bomb, Missileside spam, and Serpent spam. But once I transitioned my army from something that would have been great in my old codex to something that works with this new one I have found that the same fluffy list (With a few small changes of course) I used to use in fourth edition is not only capable of placing in tournaments, but able to win.
You play Tau? No wonder you're enjoying 6th!
"Where GW is going" may not be a place you want it to end up. We'll know more in a couple of months, but if the trends from the interim report continue in the year end, where GW is going is in a downward trajectory.
Adaptation and a clear head are key to survival in a hobby like 40k. This is not Magic, GW can't force us to buy new models to make more money. The company that makes our game can not count on having a reliable income. Instead they must tempt us with new and better things, and because of this we should see more new codexes, more new models, and even more interesting additions to the game. I for one welcome these changes, and I attribute this primarily to my understanding of how owning a business works.
No, they can't force you to buy new models, you can't force people to buy new cards either, for that matter, but they can stimulate your desire to buy new models by releasing new books and models people want. What they're doing is releasing a large volume of stuff that either nobody asked for, looks like crap, or is simply rehashed from other books or old editions, and a lot of that poorly executed (eg. auto-lose LotD codex.)
Now a lot of that they'd probably get away with for newer gamers, but they're also simultaneously continuing to increase prices, and by virtue of all the new books, making the game more inaccessible and impenetrable than ever. People regularly report a dearth of new people taking up the game in their areas all over the globe, and while that's not cast-iron, if you take that at face value, who, outside of a few hardcore fans, is left to buy this stuff?
You don't "survive" a hobby of any description (well, except maybe stuff like rock climbing and skydiving) you should be doing it for fun and to relax. If a hobby company makes it too much work to "enjoy" their "hobby" then people will simply do other things. That doesn't work out well for the company in question.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I not only like the game, but don't mind the prices. It is a game based on a product that gets sold once, and then never has to be repurchased. This same product is only purchased by a small portion of the population, not only because it is expensive, but also because it is sold unpainted, assembled, and requires a good degree of skill to make presentable.
Though this is not a factor for those of us that saw the modeling side of the hobby as a fun way to express our views of the 40k universe, or those of us that saw the need to paint the models as a challenge that we could rise to. For those that have little time, imagination (believe me there are more people without it then with it), or confidence in their painting skills, the hobby is woefully inaccessible. Even if the models were sold at a third their current costs the number of people playing would not increase more than 50% for these reasons alone, and this lowered price would result in the utter destruction of GW as a company.
Pulling unsubstantiated numbers out of the air! FTW!!
The fact is the prices increase all the time, and there's good evidence that the volume drops too. There can, and have, been threads dedicated to this topic, but it isn't unreasonable to think that the reverse may also apply. Even only if those ""with imagination" were able to do more and more elaborate kit bashes because the stuff was more affordable.
I never minded the price hikes. Not only did they coincide with markedly better and more customizable models, but with more armies, and more fluff. The price has also barely altered more than could be explained by the alteration in the value of money in a post 2008 market collapse world. The price changes are very reasonable and understandable to this end.
Rubbish. One price hike coincided with Finecast for feths sake, the Stormraven went up by ~25% when 6th hit, it became a flier and fliers were the new hotness. You only have to then look a little further and see what other companies are doing in comparative materials and the prices they're selling that GW doesn't offer reasonable value, neither does it offer premium quality.
As for the rules changes, they represented new challenges to be overcome, and thank god for them. My Tau army is no longer relegated to hiding behind Devilfish transports like it was in 5th. The allies rules has made fluff easier to write for my armies, and more options possible. For the first time since I started playing I can actually field four fast attack in the same army, something I have wanted to do since third edition as fast skimmers are and have always been my favorite options. On top of this I am utterly thrilled with the addition of fortifications, turning tournaments into fluffy fights, and the inclusion of Imperial Knights for the first time in regular 40k, something that has profoundly changed my local meta by finally stopping people from spamming ridiculous amounts of the same unit and forcing them to diversify their army to deal with this new threat.
I'll paraphrase what someone else said in response to allies "anyone looking to do it for fluff or storytelling purposes didn't need permission from the rulebook to do it, all including it in the rules did was open it up to abuse from the element of the player base that looks for that sort of thing." One could argue the same for Fortifications or anything else that 6th has (re)introduced. If you're playing for fluffy and have a good imagination, why do you need permission from the rulebook to do these things?
While I agree with your point that new rules and changes to the game are, theoretically, a good thing, execution of those rules changes is of fundamental importance, and this hasn't been something that GW has ever been too great at, but is getting woefully poor as 6th matures.
I not only love where GW is going, but also have never had this much fun playing at any point since I started playing fourteen years ago. I admit I had a dark period when I first fought a Farsight bomb, Missileside spam, and Serpent spam. But once I transitioned my army from something that would have been great in my old codex to something that works with this new one I have found that the same fluffy list (With a few small changes of course) I used to use in fourth edition is not only capable of placing in tournaments, but able to win.
You play Tau? No wonder you're enjoying 6th!
"Where GW is going" may not be a place you want it to end up. We'll know more in a couple of months, but if the trends from the interim report continue in the year end, where GW is going is in a downward trajectory.
Adaptation and a clear head are key to survival in a hobby like 40k. This is not Magic, GW can't force us to buy new models to make more money. The company that makes our game can not count on having a reliable income. Instead they must tempt us with new and better things, and because of this we should see more new codexes, more new models, and even more interesting additions to the game. I for one welcome these changes, and I attribute this primarily to my understanding of how owning a business works.
No, they can't force you to buy new models, you can't force people to buy new cards either, for that matter, but they can stimulate your desire to buy new models by releasing new books and models people want. What they're doing is releasing a large volume of stuff that either nobody asked for, looks like crap, or is simply rehashed from other books or old editions, and a lot of that poorly executed (eg. auto-lose LotD codex.)
Now a lot of that they'd probably get away with for newer gamers, but they're also simultaneously continuing to increase prices, and by virtue of all the new books, making the game more inaccessible and impenetrable than ever. People regularly report a dearth of new people taking up the game in their areas all over the globe, and while that's not cast-iron, if you take that at face value, who, outside of a few hardcore fans, is left to buy this stuff?
You don't "survive" a hobby of any description (well, except maybe stuff like rock climbing and skydiving) you should be doing it for fun and to relax. If a hobby company makes it too much work to "enjoy" their "hobby" then people will simply do other things. That doesn't work out well for the company in question.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and though I have heard yours before just like you've most likely heard mine, the very fact that neither of us have changed our opinions despite having heard these arguments before would make an attempt to argue here a futile exercise don't you think?
I have stated my opinion here not for your dissection, but rather to illustrate a view that exists in the world that had not, until I presented it, been featured here in this thread. I admire the passion in your response however, and your ability to light heatedly caste aside the heart felt opinions of others with insulting language.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 23:57:35
Really, you found anything in my post consisted of insulting language?
By all means report me.
Or grow a thicker skin.
Oh, and for the record, on boards like this, people say a thing, then other people respond to a thing, the very fact you posted implies you were inviting responses, if you're not happy with that, prolly best just to lurk.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 23:18:15
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Anpu42 wrote: As a "Casual Players" I am not complaning about the "Competative Gamers". I mostly Complain when the "Competative Gamers" tell me to go away becouse not being a "Competative Gamer" my point of veiw is worthless.
I am the very definition of casual gamer. I don't play games of more than maybe 1000 points, and often under 750 points, as the people I game with don't have $1000 to drop on an army.
And I still think the game is broken as hell. The ruleset is a mess, the technical expertise of the designers, from the perspective of game-design, is questionable, and the responsiveness to customer expectations by GW is laughable.
This is not Magic, GW can't force us to buy new models to make more money.
Actually, they can. All it takes is changing the way an army works in its Codex, or changing what models exist within its army list. Obviously, GW isn't going to send someone around to your house to put a gun to your head, but if you're expecting to play at your FLGS with strangers, or in any kind of tourney, and start plonking down models from units not appearing in your Codex, or that no longer exist in the configuration that you have a model for, then people are going to start looking at you funny. Certain players who are much into the WYSIWYG playstyle might not play you at all, because your plastic soldier dudes/dudettes lack the appropriate models for the wargear your list shows them as having, or are based incorrectly, are bigger or smaller than the new versions, or any one of a number of things that could change with the release of a new edition.
Is such a thing likely to happen? No. Is it possible? Definitely, just look at the poor bastards who used to play Squats.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
jasper76 wrote: Almost all the people I know that fit your description are people who have been playing since the early to mid 90s.
When you start listening to them and asking them questions, they're just burnt out on 40k because they've played so much of it.
I have been playing since 89 and even went thought the Tournament/WAAC phase. Then after watching two guys almost comes to blows of a stupid ruling that would have made no difference in the long run I almost quit.
Now I play just to blow [bleep] up and have fun showing off the latest model. I now try to play against people who want to play the same as the rest of us. It has cost us players, those of us who stay have fun.
jasper76 wrote: Almost all the people I know that fit your description are people who have been playing since the early to mid 90s.
When you start listening to them and asking them questions, they're just burnt out on 40k because they've played so much of it.
I have been playing since 89 and even went thought the Tournament/WAAC phase. Then after watching two guys almost comes to blows of a stupid ruling that would have made no difference in the long run I almost quit.
Now I play just to blow [bleep] up and have fun showing off the latest model. I now try to play against people who want to play the same as the rest of us. It has cost us players, those of us who stay have fun.
You're also a non-WAAC player who writes tactica.
True, but my Space Wolf one is sooooo out of date.
Ya'll want to see my Normal Shots vs. Twin-Linked Shots spreadsheet that I used to calculate the most points effecient load out (on a per hit basis) for Pask and his Punisher friends?
Spoilers: Take 3 Punishers, Pask, Hvy Bolter Sponsons and hide a Psyker with Prescience behind them. More dakka really is the answer!
jasper76 wrote: Almost all the people I know that fit your description are people who have been playing since the early to mid 90s.
When you start listening to them and asking them questions, they're just burnt out on 40k because they've played so much of it.
I have been playing since 89 and even went thought the Tournament/WAAC phase. Then after watching two guys almost comes to blows of a stupid ruling that would have made no difference in the long run I almost quit.
Now I play just to blow [bleep] up and have fun showing off the latest model. I now try to play against people who want to play the same as the rest of us. It has cost us players, those of us who stay have fun.
You're also a non-WAAC player who writes tactica.
True, but my Space Wolf one is sooooo out of date.
jasper76 wrote: Almost all the people I know that fit your description are people who have been playing since the early to mid 90s.
When you start listening to them and asking them questions, they're just burnt out on 40k because they've played so much of it.
I have been playing since 89 and even went thought the Tournament/WAAC phase. Then after watching two guys almost comes to blows of a stupid ruling that would have made no difference in the long run I almost quit.
Now I play just to blow [bleep] up and have fun showing off the latest model. I now try to play against people who want to play the same as the rest of us. It has cost us players, those of us who stay have fun.
You're also a non-WAAC player who writes tactica.
True, but my Space Wolf one is sooooo out of date.
It's got 6th Edition written on it.
Yes, but I have not updated it since before the Codex: Chaos Maries came out much, so I have a lot to add to it.
TheKbob wrote: Ya'll want to see my Normal Shots vs. Twin-Linked Shots spreadsheet that I used to calculate the most points effecient load out (on a per hit basis) for Pask and his Punisher friends?
Spoilers: Take 3 Punishers, Pask, Hvy Bolter Sponsons and hide a Psyker with Prescience behind them. More dakka really is the answer!
"MOAR DAKKA" is always the correct answer. To everything. If MOAR DAKKA isn't working, you're not using enough. Add MOAR DAKKA.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Anpu42 wrote: As a "Casual Players" I am not complaning about the "Competative Gamers". I mostly Complain when the "Competative Gamers" tell me to go away becouse not being a "Competative Gamer" my point of veiw is worthless.
Casual gamers are great. I wish my brain was wired like that so I couldn't care. When I see numbers, they gotta be optimized. I build spreadsheets on this stuff. It's fun for me, homework for others.
However, I do realize that other games don't worry about this sort of split playerbase. They are just "gamers" of said game. If we stopped pointing fingers at each other and as 40k fans asked for it to be better from the company that produces it, we'd all be much better off.
It's not that easy! Casual gamers means when your friend deploys riptides because they like them and you bring Tzeentch Marines or, Tzeentch forbid, Thousand Sons and try to play a fun game. That or you say screw it and have a warp tornado tearing through the battlefield dropping blasts
40k universe is a lot better if you just stick to your local group and avoid the internet. If i had to deal with half the people on this forum in real life i would probably have taken my toy soldiers to a shooting range to test how powerful that power armor REALLY is lol.
Only issue i got in local meta is 1 of the like 15 people here is a waveserpent nutcase, and another keeps getting rules from 2nd through 5th edition mixed up with 6th...which is understandable if you've played that long lol
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
Anpu42 wrote: As a "Casual Players" I am not complaning about the "Competative Gamers". I mostly Complain when the "Competative Gamers" tell me to go away becouse not being a "Competative Gamer" my point of veiw is worthless.
Casual gamers are great. I wish my brain was wired like that so I couldn't care. When I see numbers, they gotta be optimized. I build spreadsheets on this stuff. It's fun for me, homework for others.
However, I do realize that other games don't worry about this sort of split playerbase. They are just "gamers" of said game. If we stopped pointing fingers at each other and as 40k fans asked for it to be better from the company that produces it, we'd all be much better off.
It's not that easy! Casual gamers means when your friend deploys riptides because they like them and you bring Tzeentch Marines or, Tzeentch forbid, Thousand Sons and try to play a fun game. That or you say screw it and have a warp tornado tearing through the battlefield dropping blasts
I actualy think that Thousand Sons would do well vs Riptides, I would be getting my saves vs the Pie and like the Tau are going to assualt them.
Anpu42 wrote: As a "Casual Players" I am not complaning about the "Competative Gamers". I mostly Complain when the "Competative Gamers" tell me to go away becouse not being a "Competative Gamer" my point of veiw is worthless.
Casual gamers are great. I wish my brain was wired like that so I couldn't care. When I see numbers, they gotta be optimized. I build spreadsheets on this stuff. It's fun for me, homework for others.
However, I do realize that other games don't worry about this sort of split playerbase. They are just "gamers" of said game. If we stopped pointing fingers at each other and as 40k fans asked for it to be better from the company that produces it, we'd all be much better off.
It's not that easy! Casual gamers means when your friend deploys riptides because they like them and you bring Tzeentch Marines or, Tzeentch forbid, Thousand Sons and try to play a fun game. That or you say screw it and have a warp tornado tearing through the battlefield dropping blasts
I actualy think that Thousand Sons would do well vs Riptides, I would be getting my saves vs the Pie and like the Tau are going to assualt them.
Sadly this is not so. Thousand Sons just suck. It's been proven that CSM are actually better at killing enemies than KSons in like all but one specific scenario where it is rather negligible. Or some jazz.
Anyways, multiple problems. First, these guys wouldn't be shooting at eachother. The Riptide's gun would be aiming at more vital targets. Even if they did, it's still almost a 50% chance of that model dying and that's ignoring the fact that Riptides don't always get to shoot enemies without cover which can lead to other cheaper units being just as, if not more durable. Thousand Sons wouldn't be shooting at a riptide because then they'd be wasting their AP3 guns on a 2+ save model. Even without that, it's S4 meaning only wounds on 6. So it's actually terrible for a match. Besides that, if they were my army, I'd have no real answer to Riptides and the rest of Tau guns would simply tear me apart from weight of number. Oh, and good luck catching up to the riptide when you are slow and purposeful.
Tau Vior'la Sept: 6250 pts 
2375
/ 
1690
WIP (1875)
1300
760
WIP (350)
WIP (150) 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 