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Vulgar wrote:
MoN on bikers with armor upgrade would be T7, throw in jink, it feels a bit much.

Of course this adds complexity (chaos is about complexity), but maybe MoN gives them a different effect, like a low end "everything takes a S-X hit who is in base contact due to the noxious smell emitted by these methane powered bikes"

Or take jink away. How can you miss the smell?

... I am getting so tired of this response. please go back and look at the unit card I posted for bikers. where do you see mark of nurgle?

actually I'll just link it right here.


yeah, there is no option to take mark of nurgle on there.


oh wait, you must mean the option to take dedication to Nurgle.

yeah, how about you read what effect taking Dedication to Nurgle grants. here's the part of the card that gives that information:

Maverike_prime wrote:


Chaos Lord:

I gotta ask this because it has bugged me for a while. Why is a Chaos Lord weaker than a Space Marine chapter master? I mean they are pretty much a Chaos Chapter master except some of them have thousands, as much as ten thousand years of experience in warfare. I feel like they should at least get 4 wounds and 4 attacks by default. I mean Kharn and Lucius are expert duellists that were slaying xenos and loyalists for thousands of years before men like Dante and Calgar were born yet they only have three wounds. If you would prefer a weaker cheaper HQ choice you could always make a Chaos Lieutenant to represent lesser leaders outranking squad champions but still below an independent chaos lord.

Buttons wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:


Chaos Lord:

I gotta ask this because it has bugged me for a while. Why is a Chaos Lord weaker than a Space Marine chapter master? I mean they are pretty much a Chaos Chapter master except some of them have thousands, as much as ten thousand years of experience in warfare. I feel like they should at least get 4 wounds and 4 attacks by default. I mean Kharn and Lucius are expert duellists that were slaying xenos and loyalists for thousands of years before men like Dante and Calgar were born yet they only have three wounds. If you would prefer a weaker cheaper HQ choice you could always make a Chaos Lieutenant to represent lesser leaders outranking squad champions but still below an independent chaos lord.

Well to be fair the Chapter is 2x the cost of the Chaos Lord.

That being said, you do have a valid point. But once again I'm working on basically a reboot of the project and I should be ready to show what I've done in a few days so I'm not going to get too deep into revamping any particular unit right now. However, keeps the ideas, thoughts and suggestions coming. I am reading them.

I stand corrected, my apologies.

Hey guys just a question here. What's the situation with special and heavy weapons? Normally its a special and heavy for a 20man squad or two specials. But saw that it changed, and is different for legionaries.
If you guys could just list the changes for the squads that would be helpful, even for 5, 10 and 20 man squads.

I don't like the dedication table for bikes, vehicles could do with one but out of bike and marine its the marine that does the killing and marines get marks. The bike being more dangerous than the rider is just wrong

 Blackskull wrote:
I don't like the dedication table for bikes, vehicles could do with one but out of bike and marine its the marine that does the killing and marines get marks. The bike being more dangerous than the rider is just wrong

At least you're acknowledging you read the bloody thing. Of the 4 forums I've posted the information, plus the half dozen people I've talked to about the bikers that aren't on the forums I've gotten responses about bikes being toughness 7 thanks to mark of nurgle..... 7 times now.

But yeah beyond that, like I've said I am basically rebooting the entire project with a new direction and new breakdown that I should be able to post in the next couple of days. I don't want to get into too many details before that, so yeah. Keep the feed back rolling on whats already been posted along with suggestions and ideas.

ok to cycle back on your other stuff

12pt chaos marine
no that's what people pay for sisters of battle who are infinitely inferior to a marine. we get +1 toughness, initiative, WS, Strength and LD over the sisters who have a 6++ and some faith system I don't understand. the should remain at 13pts and cc weapons bought down to 1 pt per model, that war the marines get ATSKNF and chapter tactics and we get a cc weapon making use useable in an assult

 Blackskull wrote:
that war the marines get ATSKNF and chapter tactics and we get a cc weapon making use useable in an assult

? can you walk me through that part?

 Blackskull wrote:
ok to cycle back on your other stuff

12pt chaos marine
no that's what people pay for sisters of battle who are infinitely inferior to a marine. we get +1 toughness, initiative, WS, Strength and LD over the sisters who have a 6++ and some faith system I don't understand. the should remain at 13pts and cc weapons bought down to 1 pt per model, that war the marines get ATSKNF and chapter tactics and we get a cc weapon making use useable in an assult

This. Although 1 point for 1 extra attack is too cheap. 2 points for the extra cc weapon is fine. basic CSM do need some boost for their 13 points though.
My solution is to give them a mandatory Mark for free(Mark of Nurgle costs 1 point) like how Daemon princes have to take a Daemon of insert Chaos God upgrade, and give them stubborn. That would make them more in line with what a slightly inferior Loyalist Marine should be. Chaos Bikers cost 2 more points than they do now and inherit the above rules.

I also came up with a Mark of Chaos Undivided. Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Preferred Enemy and Adamantium Will Special Rule.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld, like I said before just give the legion units back in some form even if it's 0-1, chaos should be THE army that makes you go "I'm in for a tough time here" when they are put on the tabletop, arguably the biggest threat in 40k is worse in every way to the joke that is the tau empire, this has got to change.

I want things like a str 6 ap4 single shot from chaos spawn that cause an I test to infantry only and if failed... You are absorbed into the spawn and it gains a wound.

I want deamon engines that are monstrous creatures (except the defiler)

Op I know the chaos Lord is half the cost of a chapter master but double that cost and make him ws7 and chapter master stats, chaos Lords ARE chapter masters in all bit name and don't let gw crap writers stop us doing this book right!!

I want the bloody legions back and most of all I want a dex that isn't a total joke.

 Formosa wrote:
No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld, like I said before just give the legion units back in some form even if it's 0-1, chaos should be THE army that makes you go "I'm in for a tough time here" when they are put on the tabletop, arguably the biggest threat in 40k is worse in every way to the joke that is the tau empire, this has got to change.

I want things like a str 6 ap4 single shot from chaos spawn that cause an I test to infantry only and if failed... You are absorbed into the spawn and it gains a wound.

I want deamon engines that are monstrous creatures (except the defiler)

Op I know the chaos Lord is half the cost of a chapter master but double that cost and make him ws7 and chapter master stats, chaos Lords ARE chapter masters in all bit name and don't let gw crap writers stop us doing this book right!!

I want the bloody legions back and most of all I want a dex that isn't a total joke.

okay number one: telling me to do things.... yeah not gonna get a lot of positive feed back from me. Suggestions and ideas, fine. Give those out all day long.

Second, no one's ideas or suggestions are bad or unwelcome. Is that clear? You disagree with an idea or suggestion, fine. That is your opinion. But disagreeing with the idea does not make it wrong any more then it makes your right.

Third, us? I'm sorry I have yet to see any besides BlackSkull and myself post any non-wish listing or "I Want" or "I'm right because I said so" information. Have many games have you play tested any of these suggestions in? How many different armies have you tested the Thousand Sons again? And how much of those tests have you posted information for?

 Formosa wrote:
No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld...

I have 16 warhammer books in my bookshelf, all which I read (I probably read a few more lying around elsewhere).

Those books covers many of the recent additions to Horus Heresy, Grey Knights/Imperial Guard/Ultramarine, Souldrinkers omnibus, and a few stand alone books about Cain (Hero of the Imperium) and even one or two books competently dedicated to the Chaos Space Marines.

None of these books even remotely supports your statement that Chaos Space marines would be better at shooting or have higher close combat skills than the loyalist counterpart. What they do support is that experienced Chaos Space marines are stronger (physically) than loyalists because of the warp energies that runs through their bodies. However, a newly created Chaos Space marine is pretty much equal in all aspects to a loyalist Space Marine, it is not until they gain rewards/mutations from the chaos gods they actually become better.

The lore suggest that Chaos Space marines leadership is actually lower than loyalists, for example, from one of my books, during a large scale war between two rivaling chaos lords, one large force of iron warriors switched sides during battle. Leadership has a mixed meaning, for orks and imperial guard you could consider it as fear to fight, but for Chaos Space marines, it would be their lack of loyalty or will to sacrifice themselves for a greater cause (remember that the goal of each individual Chaos Space marine is to raid or/and become a daemon prince, you can do neither of this if you are dead). So when a loyalist Space Marine fights to death because they are indoctrinated to do so, most Chaos Space marines does not receive such indoctrination and are more inclined to retreat because the fight is not going well and the riches they were promised to loot (Chaos Lords often seems to convey warbands that way) is not going to happen if they are dead.

For this reason, I think Chaos Space marines with the same state line are representing new chaos space marines (or chaos space marines that not yet received many mutations) very well. Once they get their marks thou, they become stronger than the loyalists, one could consider that some marks are not good enough making them barely on only on par with loyalists, for example the Khorne and Tzeenth could favor a boost but also a slight increase in points.



Also here are some feedback on the dedications:
Khorne: Does the D3 apply to each model, or does the whole unit roll one D3. The first option (D3 per model) would result in more rolling, but a more predictable result, while the latter (D3 for whole unit) would be more wimpsy but also quicker to play.
Nurgle: Does this hit apply each turn, or only on the turn the get in range?
Slaneesh: toihits (spelling error)

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld, like I said before just give the legion units back in some form even if it's 0-1, chaos should be THE army that makes you go "I'm in for a tough time here" when they are put on the tabletop, arguably the biggest threat in 40k is worse in every way to the joke that is the tau empire, this has got to change.

I want things like a str 6 ap4 single shot from chaos spawn that cause an I test to infantry only and if failed... You are absorbed into the spawn and it gains a wound.

I want deamon engines that are monstrous creatures (except the defiler)

Op I know the chaos Lord is half the cost of a chapter master but double that cost and make him ws7 and chapter master stats, chaos Lords ARE chapter masters in all bit name and don't let gw crap writers stop us doing this book right!!

I want the bloody legions back and most of all I want a dex that isn't a total joke.

okay number one: telling me to do things.... yeah not gonna get a lot of positive feed back from me. Suggestions and ideas, fine. Give those out all day long.

Second, no one's ideas or suggestions are bad or unwelcome. Is that clear? You disagree with an idea or suggestion, fine. That is your opinion. But disagreeing with the idea does not make it wrong any more then it makes your right.

Third, us? I'm sorry I have yet to see any besides BlackSkull and myself post any non-wish listing or "I Want" or "I'm right because I said so" information. Have many games have you play tested any of these suggestions in? How many different armies have you tested the Thousand Sons again? And how much of those tests have you posted information for?

We'll having totally ignored my first suggestion and not even bothering to reply to it lead me to make a bold statement, and lo and behold it gets a reply.

I can see that you are trying to keep the status quo as much as possible with the units you have made and edited, but gw has failed on almost every scale to capture the feel of chaos in this current book, all I'm seeing is patches and hotfixes to a book that isn't worth wasting your time on.

If you want to start from the ground up then great and I'd be happy to help, but sticking to the mess of the last 2 chaos books is a mistake, it needs to be bigger and bolder (not op), there is so much untapped potential in the chaos dex.

flodihn wrote:

Khorne: Does the D3 apply to each model, or does the whole unit roll one D3. The first option (D3 per model) would result in more rolling, but a more predictable result, while the latter (D3 for whole unit) would be more wimpsy but also quicker to play.
Nurgle: Does this hit apply each turn, or only on the turn the get in range?
Slaneesh: toihits (spelling error)

Khorne: it is on a per model basis. so one model may get 1 hammer of wrath, another might get 3.
Nurgle: every turn that the condition 'Any model, friend or foe, that does not have the mark of nurgle" applies.
Slanesh: Yeah, sadly Photoshop doesn't have spell check. Thanks for the catch.

 Formosa wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld, like I said before just give the legion units back in some form even if it's 0-1, chaos should be THE army that makes you go "I'm in for a tough time here" when they are put on the tabletop, arguably the biggest threat in 40k is worse in every way to the joke that is the tau empire, this has got to change.

I want things like a str 6 ap4 single shot from chaos spawn that cause an I test to infantry only and if failed... You are absorbed into the spawn and it gains a wound.

I want deamon engines that are monstrous creatures (except the defiler)

Op I know the chaos Lord is half the cost of a chapter master but double that cost and make him ws7 and chapter master stats, chaos Lords ARE chapter masters in all bit name and don't let gw crap writers stop us doing this book right!!

I want the bloody legions back and most of all I want a dex that isn't a total joke.

okay number one: telling me to do things.... yeah not gonna get a lot of positive feed back from me. Suggestions and ideas, fine. Give those out all day long.

Second, no one's ideas or suggestions are bad or unwelcome. Is that clear? You disagree with an idea or suggestion, fine. That is your opinion. But disagreeing with the idea does not make it wrong any more then it makes your right.

Third, us? I'm sorry I have yet to see any besides BlackSkull and myself post any non-wish listing or "I Want" or "I'm right because I said so" information. Have many games have you play tested any of these suggestions in? How many different armies have you tested the Thousand Sons again? And how much of those tests have you posted information for?

We'll having totally ignored my first suggestion and not even bothering to reply to it lead me to make a bold statement, and lo and behold it gets a reply.

I can see that you are trying to keep the status quo as much as possible with the units you have made and edited, but gw has failed on almost every scale to capture the feel of chaos in this current book, all I'm seeing is patches and hotfixes to a book that isn't worth wasting your time on.

If you want to start from the ground up then great and I'd be happy to help, but sticking to the mess of the last 2 chaos books is a mistake, it needs to be bigger and bolder (not op), there is so much untapped potential in the chaos dex.

okay, lets be clear about something here. Namely reality. I do have a life outside of the internet and working on this project. Just because one day I have the several hours and go through and reply to each persons points, comments, suggestions and ideas individually on each of the four forums I'm doing this on does not constitute any form of agreement or statement that I have that ability every day. Also, not everyone's comment warrent a response.

"If I can make a suggestion, put a couple of the legion units in there, it royally pi..annoys me that somehow these guys have forgotten there skills and lost there equipment when for some it's only been a week out of the warp.

I suggest 0-1 attached to the legion traits.

Night lords: night raptors or murder squad.

Iron warriors: breacher squad

Etc.

Add marks as you see fit and then vet of the long war (with gw) and your done ."

I'm sorry, but that's already pretty far down there as far as helpful suggestions go. Allow me to illustrate why. You entire post consists of 82 words. Now in those 82 words you have actually suggested.... nothing. I will explain why:

1) What legion traits?
-You've said legion traits. Such as.....? Are we talking the smattering of what became universal special rules in the 3.5 codex? Are you refering to the Chapter Tactics in the current Space Marine Codex? Do you the mean the Chapter Trait system from the 4th edition Space Marine Codex? Are you referencing the Rites of War from the Horus Heresy Series? Are you referencing something completely different?
2) what are Night Raptors, murder squads, and breacher squads?
-You have simply given a name with no explanation as to A) what you are referring to and B) what you're idea for that unit is. When you say breacher squad are you talking about the boarding teams of Space Marines from Badab war? the Breacher Siege Squad from Horus Heresy? Something from a completely different source? If referencing one of those units in a source book that's already out there, what book? a Page number to reference would be nice as well. And why those units? What are they bringing to the army list that say 4 Melta gun armed Havocs are not?
3) 0-1 attached to legion traits.
-in short... what are you talking about?
4) Add marks as you see fit and then vet of the long war (with gw) and your done.
-I have almost no idea what you just said there, but from what I sort of kind of think you said yeah.... I think that's the same idea that lead to the current Chaos Space marine codex just Copy and pasting the the marks and icons upgrades through out the book and leaving us with the army list that we currently have.


So from you 82 word post I am left with 279 words worth of questions about what you are talking about.

Now look, I'm sorry to be so abrupt about all of this but I'm not going to take the time and hold your hand while I work to walk you through making your own suggestions on the threads. I'm sorry, but if you don't want to act like mature individuals who are actually going to put effort and mental power into this project then honestly no I don't want your help with it. You want to make a suggestion and want it taken seriously? Then explain it. "Add legion units" is not a suggestion. It's a waste of time and effort.

"Add a trait, I'm thinking making the lord Stubborn, that can be selected by the Lord that unlocked the use breacher squads in the army. I think the Breacher squad as it appears on page 204 of HH:Betrayal is a good place to start but I would limit it to a 10 man max to show that this is a specialized formation not in use by many surviving warbands and there are even fewer Chaos Marines still trained is it's operation. Because of the 10 man limit, I would make it so that the entire unit can have 4 melta-guns as opposed to the 1 in 5 rule from the Horus Heresy book. This way you've got a group of 10 marines with shields coming up with melta guns."

That's a suggestion that I will actually take time to look at and work with.

 J3f wrote:


I also came up with a Mark of Chaos Undivided. Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Preferred Enemy and Adamantium Will Special Rule.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

While I like the idea of undivided getting some love Preferred Enemy is too much. Crusader and Adamantium Will is fine, something else that boosts survivability or mobility is fine, but Preferred Enemy is too much and honestly doesn't make any sense. Why would Black Legion or Word Bearers be better at fighting Tau than World Eaters or Emperor's Children?

Maybe a chaos lord/sorcerer could choose an alignment or legion, if they are aligned with Tnzeetch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne they get their respective cult troops, if they are undivided they can take chosen, possessed, or raptors as troops (representing Black Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords respectively), only choosing one of the three as troops.

Buttons wrote:

 J3f wrote:


I also came up with a Mark of Chaos Undivided. Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Preferred Enemy and Adamantium Will Special Rule.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

While I like the idea of undivided getting some love Preferred Enemy is too much. Crusader and Adamantium Will is fine, something else that boosts survivability or mobility is fine, but Preferred Enemy is too much and honestly doesn't make any sense. Why would Black Legion or Word Bearers be better at fighting Tau than World Eaters or Emperor's Children?

Maybe a chaos lord/sorcerer could choose an alignment or legion, if they are aligned with Tnzeetch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne they get their respective cult troops, if they are undivided they can take chosen, possessed, or raptors as troops (representing Black Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords respectively), only choosing one of the three as troops.

If you look what the fluff what chaos undivided really do is to rally all chaos troops under the same banner, normally the chaos gods constantly fight each other, also leading to chaos troops always consider each other rivals, sometimes even leading to full scale wars.

Perhaps the chaos undivided mark on a lord could make units from different gods work better together. That would fit the fluff and lead to some interesting tactics. Imagine 5 khorne berzerkers and 5 plague marines in one squad?

flodihn wrote:

Buttons wrote:

 J3f wrote:


I also came up with a Mark of Chaos Undivided. Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Preferred Enemy and Adamantium Will Special Rule.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

While I like the idea of undivided getting some love Preferred Enemy is too much. Crusader and Adamantium Will is fine, something else that boosts survivability or mobility is fine, but Preferred Enemy is too much and honestly doesn't make any sense. Why would Black Legion or Word Bearers be better at fighting Tau than World Eaters or Emperor's Children?

Maybe a chaos lord/sorcerer could choose an alignment or legion, if they are aligned with Tnzeetch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne they get their respective cult troops, if they are undivided they can take chosen, possessed, or raptors as troops (representing Black Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords respectively), only choosing one of the three as troops.

If you look what the fluff what chaos undivided really do is to rally all chaos troops under the same banner, normally the chaos gods constantly fight each other, also leading to chaos troops always consider each other rivals, sometimes even leading to full scale wars.

Perhaps the chaos undivided mark on a lord could make units from different gods work better together. That would fit the fluff and lead to some interesting tactics. Imagine 5 khorne berzerkers and 5 plague marines in one squad?

While I think mixing units shouldn't be done, better synergy between units would be nice. Perhaps give unaligned the ability to take up to one of each cult unit as troops. So an unaligned Chaos Lord could take a unit of Khorne berserkers, a unit of noise marines, a unit of 1k sons, and a unit of plague marines (however he cannot have say two units of noise marines both being troops), all of them troops to represent how they can unite the various gods for specific purposes. That way an unaligned force could say bring Noise Marines to sit behind an Aegis Line in order to provide mid range firepower, while Khorne Berserkers could be used as assault troops alongside Plague Marines, with the Bersekers moving beyond the midfield objective while the Plague Marines sit on the midfield objective.

cult troops for unaligned makes no sense as they hire in these guys to kill stuff, they don't trust them in the slightest especially not for the purposes of claiming critical points and resources

however this argument will become invalid in 7th edition (released may 24th) where everything is scoring so its kind of pointless to fuss it

 Blackskull wrote:
cult troops for unaligned makes no sense as they hire in these guys to kill stuff, they don't trust them in the slightest especially not for the purposes of claiming critical points and resources

however this argument will become invalid in 7th edition (released may 24th) where everything is scoring so its kind of pointless to fuss it

Taking them as troops is primarily to facilitate using more varied cult troops as mercenaries and freeing up the elite slot for other non-cult units like terminators, chosen, and possessed to represent a legion or warband that has lots of possessed, terminators, or chosen simply hiring mercenaries to bulk up their force. One could always make the cult troops non-scoring or take away whatever benefit troops are rumored to get over other slots (IIRC it is something like no one can contest objectives they hold except for other troops).

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld, like I said before just give the legion units back in some form even if it's 0-1, chaos should be THE army that makes you go "I'm in for a tough time here" when they are put on the tabletop, arguably the biggest threat in 40k is worse in every way to the joke that is the tau empire, this has got to change.

I want things like a str 6 ap4 single shot from chaos spawn that cause an I test to infantry only and if failed... You are absorbed into the spawn and it gains a wound.

I want deamon engines that are monstrous creatures (except the defiler)

Op I know the chaos Lord is half the cost of a chapter master but double that cost and make him ws7 and chapter master stats, chaos Lords ARE chapter masters in all bit name and don't let gw crap writers stop us doing this book right!!

I want the bloody legions back and most of all I want a dex that isn't a total joke.

okay number one: telling me to do things.... yeah not gonna get a lot of positive feed back from me. Suggestions and ideas, fine. Give those out all day long.

Second, no one's ideas or suggestions are bad or unwelcome. Is that clear? You disagree with an idea or suggestion, fine. That is your opinion. But disagreeing with the idea does not make it wrong any more then it makes your right.

Third, us? I'm sorry I have yet to see any besides BlackSkull and myself post any non-wish listing or "I Want" or "I'm right because I said so" information. Have many games have you play tested any of these suggestions in? How many different armies have you tested the Thousand Sons again? And how much of those tests have you posted information for?

We'll having totally ignored my first suggestion and not even bothering to reply to it lead me to make a bold statement, and lo and behold it gets a reply.

I can see that you are trying to keep the status quo as much as possible with the units you have made and edited, but gw has failed on almost every scale to capture the feel of chaos in this current book, all I'm seeing is patches and hotfixes to a book that isn't worth wasting your time on.

If you want to start from the ground up then great and I'd be happy to help, but sticking to the mess of the last 2 chaos books is a mistake, it needs to be bigger and bolder (not op), there is so much untapped potential in the chaos dex.

okay, lets be clear about something here. Namely reality. I do have a life outside of the internet and working on this project. Just because one day I have the several hours and go through and reply to each persons points, comments, suggestions and ideas individually on each of the four forums I'm doing this on does not constitute any form of agreement or statement that I have that ability every day. Also, not everyone's comment warrent a response.

"If I can make a suggestion, put a couple of the legion units in there, it royally pi..annoys me that somehow these guys have forgotten there skills and lost there equipment when for some it's only been a week out of the warp.

I suggest 0-1 attached to the legion traits.

Night lords: night raptors or murder squad.

Iron warriors: breacher squad

Etc.

Add marks as you see fit and then vet of the long war (with gw) and your done ."

I'm sorry, but that's already pretty far down there as far as helpful suggestions go. Allow me to illustrate why. You entire post consists of 82 words. Now in those 82 words you have actually suggested.... nothing. I will explain why:

1) What legion traits?
-You've said legion traits. Such as.....? Are we talking the smattering of what became universal special rules in the 3.5 codex? Are you refering to the Chapter Tactics in the current Space Marine Codex? Do you the mean the Chapter Trait system from the 4th edition Space Marine Codex? Are you referencing the Rites of War from the Horus Heresy Series? Are you referencing something completely different?
2) what are Night Raptors, murder squads, and breacher squads?
-You have simply given a name with no explanation as to A) what you are referring to and B) what you're idea for that unit is. When you say breacher squad are you talking about the boarding teams of Space Marines from Badab war? the Breacher Siege Squad from Horus Heresy? Something from a completely different source? If referencing one of those units in a source book that's already out there, what book? a Page number to reference would be nice as well. And why those units? What are they bringing to the army list that say 4 Melta gun armed Havocs are not?
3) 0-1 attached to legion traits.
-in short... what are you talking about?
4) Add marks as you see fit and then vet of the long war (with gw) and your done.
-I have almost no idea what you just said there, but from what I sort of kind of think you said yeah.... I think that's the same idea that lead to the current Chaos Space marine codex just Copy and pasting the the marks and icons upgrades through out the book and leaving us with the army list that we currently have.


So from you 82 word post I am left with 279 words worth of questions about what you are talking about.

Now look, I'm sorry to be so abrupt about all of this but I'm not going to take the time and hold your hand while I work to walk you through making your own suggestions on the threads. I'm sorry, but if you don't want to act like mature individuals who are actually going to put effort and mental power into this project then honestly no I don't want your help with it. You want to make a suggestion and want it taken seriously? Then explain it. "Add legion units" is not a suggestion. It's a waste of time and effort.

"Add a trait, I'm thinking making the lord Stubborn, that can be selected by the Lord that unlocked the use breacher squads in the army. I think the Breacher squad as it appears on page 204 of HH:Betrayal is a good place to start but I would limit it to a 10 man max to show that this is a specialized formation not in use by many surviving warbands and there are even fewer Chaos Marines still trained is it's operation. Because of the 10 man limit, I would make it so that the entire unit can have 4 melta-guns as opposed to the 1 in 5 rule from the Horus Heresy book. This way you've got a group of 10 marines with shields coming up with melta guns."

That's a suggestion that I will actually take time to look at and work with.

All fair comments, I will happily explain what my intentions are and post up more constructive criticism.

First of by legion traits I am indeed talking about all 3 heresy books so far, they capture the feel of the heresy armies quite well (when combined with additional foc available to certain forces, for example castellan foc for iron warriors) in a few short rules, when I look at the legion army list I see what chaos space marines should be, legion but broken up in some cases (notably word bearers and black legion are still legion strength) they are still legions, so it confuses me why these are not available on the tabletop.

So I'd suggest 0-1 of the following units or just adding them in its up to you.

Troops
Legion tactical squad with all options and wargear remaining the same as hh with the exception of making marines 13pts per model after the unit has been bought, marks can be added but no icons
Legion breachers, iron warriors or successors only, marks added but otherwise the same.

There are just a couple of examples, so they would keep heresy era wargear and option but be able to take marks, rather than icons they can take a legion trait, so for example a normal chaos marine squad would represent renegades with marks and icons, a legion squad would represent death guard legionaries with the mark of nurgle but retain the benefits of the death guard legion (deathsythes, shred flamers, poison missiles etc.) but not be full blown plague marines.

okay, I've been mentioning I was working on something for a while now. It's not finished by any stretch, but I feel it's at a position that it can be talked about.

So what am I talking about? Well I'm basically rebooting the entire project and revamping the project. To help with organization and coordination I've set up a website for the project.

Check it out here:===> Chaos Codex



And Formosa; I am not ignoring your suggestions. Just right now I'm focusing more on the Chaos Renegades book and your suggestions sounds more like they belong in the Chaos Legions book.

Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.

As with chapter tactics it could be possible (as I see you have done) to implement codex space marines units, we already have vindicators but could we add the land raider variants (either full access or 0-1) and land speeders, now I know it won't make a lot of difference on the table top but it would help to show a renegade force that still retains its codex equipment to some extent, some wargear would also be cool even if.just a name change, so rather than the chaos 4+ inv relic lords could take an iron halo, maybe a smattering of grav weapons available to chosen only and of course dreadnoughts without the madness rule rather than hellbrutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khan the betrayer 230pts
Ws8
Bs3
S5
T4
W4
I5
A5
Ld10
Sv2+ 4++ 6+ FNP
Wargear: Gorechild, frag and krak grenades, deamon armour, collar of khorne, plasma pistol, aura of darkness.
Special rules: favoured of khorne: this confers eternal warrior, rage, hatred and furious charge to kharn.
gorechild: str +1 ap2, always hits on 2+ regardless of any modifiers, armourbane, murderous strike (6to would causes id).
Fear, whirlwind of Gore: at initiative step 10 kharn and any unit he has joined pile in, they strike in normal initiative order as normal however kharn must take a ld test, if failed kharn forgoes his normal attacks and instead strikes all models (friend or foe) in base contact, roll to hit and to wound as normal. If the test is passed or the enemy model in base contact with kharn has the vehicle type, kharn acts normally.

This is a suggestion of kharn the betrayer.

 Formosa wrote:
Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.

As with chapter tactics it could be possible (as I see you have done) to implement codex space marines units, we already have vindicators but could we add the land raider variants (either full access or 0-1) and land speeders, now I know it won't make a lot of difference on the table top but it would help to show a renegade force that still retains its codex equipment to some extent, some wargear would also be cool even if.just a name change, so rather than the chaos 4+ inv relic lords could take an iron halo, maybe a smattering of grav weapons available to chosen only and of course dreadnoughts without the madness rule rather than hellbrutes.

I'm already running into a problem with that internal to Chaos Renegedes codex. Look at the Chosen where I gave them the option to take a 2+ save. In the Chaos Codex at present there's only 2 ways to get a 2+ save, terminator armor, or flesh metal armor. Flesh metal is apparently rubbing people the wrong way because.... well, it's Flesh metal, it's not armor so much as it's the armor fusing with the marines body.

No, that's the fluff behind it. What effect does it have in-game? It gives a 2+ save. So now here's the issue. Do I make "Daemon Wrought armor" that gives a 2+ save and list it along side Flesh Metal armor that likewise gives a 2+ save and be accused of being either lazy or stupid because I've made the same thing twice? Do I change Flesh Metal so it does something else? If I do that I have to take a closer look at Oblits and Mutis and see what effect it has on them.

As for HelBrutes = dreadnoughts.... it's kind of the same problem.

here's the stat line for a helbrute;

WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Now here's a dreadnought stat line:
WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Now, here's a third unit I made (Not really, just making for demonstrative purposes) called the Fluffy Rhino Walker. It's stat line is:

WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Okay, what's the difference? The name. Functionally they are exactly identical. Here it illustrates one of my big problems I have with just porting stuff over to another Codex, in this case Space Marines to Chaos Renegades. You begin to loose the uniqueness of the army. I've just laid out 3 different units. What difference will they have in game between one another? Beyond using different models none. The Fluffy Rhino will work exactly like the Dreadnought which will work exactly like the HelBrute.

I remember back when the 3rd edition Eldar Codex there were complaints about the Wave Serpent going up in cost. Gav Thorpe made an response to that in the issue of White Dwarf to accompany that release. I wish I still had the issue in front of me but I can't find it just now so I'll just have to shoot from the hip. He said people had been asking why couldn't the Eldar have a cheap transport option like the marines or Dark Eldar. And he responded by explaining that it's because the Marines and Dark Eldar have a cheap transport. Gone are the days of Harliquins assaulting out a land Raider and other such abominations. Every army does not and should not get everything that every other army gets.

So same mentality here. "Because the space marines have it" is not sufficient justification in my mind to explain porting a unit from the Space Marine Codex to one of these three. I rather like the new fluff explaining the difference between HelBrutes and Dreadnoughts:

"Helbrutes are twisted mockeries of the Space Marine Dreadnoughts they used to be, combining the firepower of a small tank with the mind of a frenzied maniac."

They took the same basic idea, 'cept gave it spikes where it really shouldn't have spikes.... and then make those spikes go into the brain to brain feth the pilot in-side out to the point that the pilot goes bat-gak crazy. That is so fitting of Chaos in my mind that I am honestly loathe to remove the crazed rule from Helbrutes as a matter of course. That being said, I did provide the option to buy away the crazed effect on HelBrute via the purchase of the Hell Forged warrior upgrade.

Now on the topic of Land Raider variants... Land Raiders are effing expensive. Both in terms of price for the kit and the points cost. I'm still particularly miffed at GW releasing the Redeember for.... well basically no reason what so ever. It really didn't bring anything to the table that the Crusader couldn't already do. Yeah heavy flamers are nice... but are they really any different then 3-twin linked Bolters that are double tapping? There was a work log on BolterandChainsword.com, I can't find it just now, but anyway. The point of the log was the guy wanted to build as many variant land raiders as he could manage. He had Manticore Missile equiped Land Raiders, and Twin-linked Frag Cannon sponsors, and Hurrican Plasma Guns, and Twin-linked Plasma Cannons, and quad auto-cannons sponsons.... and the list just goes on. If I can find the blog again I'll link it. Anyway, he's a very talented converter but... to what end? It's not like there are rules for land Raiders that mount a Multi-melta, wth 6 Twin-linked Melta Guns and a HellHammer cannon or for a Land Raider with Twin-linked Frag Cannons with a Twin-linked Plasma Cannon. That's my real issue with bringing additional variants of the Land Raider up. What is their purpose? Why does this variant exist? What does it do that other land raiders can't? Also see my previous comment about porting dreadnoughts.

 Formosa wrote:
Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khan the betrayer 230pts
Ws8
Bs3
S5
T4
W4
I5
A5
Ld10
Sv2+ 4++ 6+ FNP
Wargear: Gorechild, frag and krak grenades, deamon armour, collar of khorne, plasma pistol, aura of darkness.
Special rules: favoured of khorne: this confers eternal warrior, rage, hatred and furious charge to kharn.
gorechild: str +1 ap2, always hits on 2+ regardless of any modifiers, armourbane, murderous strike (6to would causes id).
Fear, whirlwind of Gore: at initiative step 10 kharn and any unit he has joined pile in, they strike in normal initiative order as normal however kharn must take a ld test, if failed kharn forgoes his normal attacks and instead strikes all models (friend or foe) in base contact, roll to hit and to wound as normal. If the test is passed or the enemy model in base contact with kharn has the vehicle type, kharn acts normally.

This is a suggestion of kharn the betrayer.

... okay why?

Okay, so I finished a piece that I thought people would want to see so... yeah here it is. It's not finished, but I think it'll carry my intentions and plans.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.

As with chapter tactics it could be possible (as I see you have done) to implement codex space marines units, we already have vindicators but could we add the land raider variants (either full access or 0-1) and land speeders, now I know it won't make a lot of difference on the table top but it would help to show a renegade force that still retains its codex equipment to some extent, some wargear would also be cool even if.just a name change, so rather than the chaos 4+ inv relic lords could take an iron halo, maybe a smattering of grav weapons available to chosen only and of course dreadnoughts without the madness rule rather than hellbrutes.

I'm already running into a problem with that internal to Chaos Renegedes codex. Look at the Chosen where I gave them the option to take a 2+ save. In the Chaos Codex at present there's only 2 ways to get a 2+ save, terminator armor, or flesh metal armor. Flesh metal is apparently rubbing people the wrong way because.... well, it's Flesh metal, it's not armor so much as it's the armor fusing with the marines body.

No, that's the fluff behind it. What effect does it have in-game? It gives a 2+ save. So now here's the issue. Do I make "Daemon Wrought armor" that gives a 2+ save and list it along side Flesh Metal armor that likewise gives a 2+ save and be accused of being either lazy or stupid because I've made the same thing twice? Do I change Flesh Metal so it does something else? If I do that I have to take a closer look at Oblits and Mutis and see what effect it has on them.

As for HelBrutes = dreadnoughts.... it's kind of the same problem.

here's the stat line for a helbrute;

WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Now here's a dreadnought stat line:
WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Now, here's a third unit I made (Not really, just making for demonstrative purposes) called the Fluffy Rhino Walker. It's stat line is:

WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Okay, what's the difference? The name. Functionally they are exactly identical. Here it illustrates one of my big problems I have with just porting stuff over to another Codex, in this case Space Marines to Chaos Renegades. You begin to loose the uniqueness of the army. I've just laid out 3 different units. What difference will they have in game between one another? Beyond using different models none. The Fluffy Rhino will work exactly like the Dreadnought which will work exactly like the HelBrute.

I remember back when the 3rd edition Eldar Codex there were complaints about the Wave Serpent going up in cost. Gav Thorpe made an response to that in the issue of White Dwarf to accompany that release. I wish I still had the issue in front of me but I can't find it just now so I'll just have to shoot from the hip. He said people had been asking why couldn't the Eldar have a cheap transport option like the marines or Dark Eldar. And he responded by explaining that it's because the Marines and Dark Eldar have a cheap transport. Gone are the days of Harliquins assaulting out a land Raider and other such abominations. Every army does not and should not get everything that every other army gets.

So same mentality here. "Because the space marines have it" is not sufficient justification in my mind to explain porting a unit from the Space Marine Codex to one of these three. I rather like the new fluff explaining the difference between HelBrutes and Dreadnoughts:

"Helbrutes are twisted mockeries of the Space Marine Dreadnoughts they used to be, combining the firepower of a small tank with the mind of a frenzied maniac."

They took the same basic idea, 'cept gave it spikes where it really shouldn't have spikes.... and then make those spikes go into the brain to brain feth the pilot in-side out to the point that the pilot goes bat-gak crazy. That is so fitting of Chaos in my mind that I am honestly loathe to remove the crazed rule from Helbrutes as a matter of course. That being said, I did provide the option to buy away the crazed effect on HelBrute via the purchase of the Hell Forged warrior upgrade.

Now on the topic of Land Raider variants... Land Raiders are effing expensive. Both in terms of price for the kit and the points cost. I'm still particularly miffed at GW releasing the Redeember for.... well basically no reason what so ever. It really didn't bring anything to the table that the Crusader couldn't already do. Yeah heavy flamers are nice... but are they really any different then 3-twin linked Bolters that are double tapping? There was a work log on BolterandChainsword.com, I can't find it just now, but anyway. The point of the log was the guy wanted to build as many variant land raiders as he could manage. He had Manticore Missile equiped Land Raiders, and Twin-linked Frag Cannon sponsors, and Hurrican Plasma Guns, and Twin-linked Plasma Cannons, and quad auto-cannons sponsons.... and the list just goes on. If I can find the blog again I'll link it. Anyway, he's a very talented converter but... to what end? It's not like there are rules for land Raiders that mount a Multi-melta, wth 6 Twin-linked Melta Guns and a HellHammer cannon or for a Land Raider with Twin-linked Frag Cannons with a Twin-linked Plasma Cannon. That's my real issue with bringing additional variants of the Land Raider up. What is their purpose? Why does this variant exist? What does it do that other land raiders can't? Also see my previous comment about porting dreadnoughts.

 Formosa wrote:
Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khan the betrayer 230pts
Ws8
Bs3
S5
T4
W4
I5
A5
Ld10
Sv2+ 4++ 6+ FNP
Wargear: Gorechild, frag and krak grenades, deamon armour, collar of khorne, plasma pistol, aura of darkness.
Special rules: favoured of khorne: this confers eternal warrior, rage, hatred and furious charge to kharn.
gorechild: str +1 ap2, always hits on 2+ regardless of any modifiers, armourbane, murderous strike (6to would causes id).
Fear, whirlwind of Gore: at initiative step 10 kharn and any unit he has joined pile in, they strike in normal initiative order as normal however kharn must take a ld test, if failed kharn forgoes his normal attacks and instead strikes all models (friend or foe) in base contact, roll to hit and to wound as normal. If the test is passed or the enemy model in base contact with kharn has the vehicle type, kharn acts normally.

This is a suggestion of kharn the betrayer.

... okay why?

I get what you mean with the fluffy rhino, while I agree functionally they are the same the space marine fluffy rhino doesn't have the crazed rule but otherwise they are the same, but names are important from an aesthetic point of view, hellbrutes sound far to chaosy for a renegade chapter.

But I do agree that there is no need to drop 2 identical units into the book, so simply add crazed as a free option for "hellbrutes" and make crazed something to consider as opposed to no one wanting the rule at all.

I see you are updating the characters with tweaks and such, so I posted a kharn the betrayer as he should be, bloody deadly in combat and an eternal warrior, I also brought him in line with his heresy version, I upped his attacks to 5 so with the charge and +1 for ccw he has 8 attacks on the charge.. An appropriate number I feel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have to disagree a bit with land raiders, I agree with the not adding anything that doesn't bring anything but in regards to a larger transport cap land raider it would help chaos space marines get to combat easier.

I'm suggesting a these units as renegades would not have lost said equipment and the renegades are where you are starting (correct me if I'm wrong), so while yes you would just be adding chaos marks to space marine units that is essentially what some renegades are, hence why I'm suggesting it.

 Formosa wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khan the betrayer 230pts
Ws8
Bs3
S5
T4
W4
I5
A5
Ld10
Sv2+ 4++ 6+ FNP
Wargear: Gorechild, frag and krak grenades, deamon armour, collar of khorne, plasma pistol, aura of darkness.
Special rules: favoured of khorne: this confers eternal warrior, rage, hatred and furious charge to kharn.
gorechild: str +1 ap2, always hits on 2+ regardless of any modifiers, armourbane, murderous strike (6to would causes id).
Fear, whirlwind of Gore: at initiative step 10 kharn and any unit he has joined pile in, they strike in normal initiative order as normal however kharn must take a ld test, if failed kharn forgoes his normal attacks and instead strikes all models (friend or foe) in base contact, roll to hit and to wound as normal. If the test is passed or the enemy model in base contact with kharn has the vehicle type, kharn acts normally.

This is a suggestion of kharn the betrayer.

... okay why?

I get what you mean with the fluffy rhino, while I agree functionally they are the same the space marine fluffy rhino doesn't have the crazed rule but otherwise they are the same, but names are important from an aesthetic point of view, hellbrutes sound far to chaosy for a renegade chapter.

But I do agree that there is no need to drop 2 identical units into the book, so simply add crazed as a free option for "hellbrutes" and make crazed something to consider as opposed to no one wanting the rule at all.

I see you are updating the characters with tweaks and such, so I posted a kharn the betrayer as he should be, bloody deadly in combat and an eternal warrior, I also brought him in line with his heresy version, I upped his attacks to 5 so with the charge and +1 for ccw he has 8 attacks on the charge.. An appropriate number I feel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have to disagree a bit with land raiders, I agree with the not adding anything that doesn't bring anything but in regards to a larger transport cap land raider it would help chaos space marines get to combat easier.

I'm suggesting a these units as renegades would not have lost said equipment and the renegades are where you are starting (correct me if I'm wrong), so while yes you would just be adding chaos marks to space marine units that is essentially what some renegades are, hence why I'm suggesting it.

Okay first thing about Kharn, he already a freaking monster in combat as is. I was working with a friend last night and we were math-hammering it out. for 160 points he's one of the characters you can field in the entire bloody game. It's not until you start bringing characters with a 4++ or you bring characters that are 2 and 3 times his point cost that it starts getting more even. Also, some of your suggestions on Kharn... just don't make any sense.
The WS8. He already hits everything on 2s, with a re-roll. why bother with this?
the BS3... why has he gotten worse at shooting?
Sv2+ 4++ 6+ FNP... no. kharn does not need freaking terminator armor with am iron halo saves with a feel no pain on top of that.
favoured of khorne: this confers eternal warrior, rage, hatred and furious charge to kharn..... he already has all of this.
Fear, whirlwind of Gore: at initiative step 10 kharn and any unit he has joined pile in, they strike in normal initiative order as normal however kharn must take a ld test, if failed kharn forgoes his normal attacks and instead strikes all models (friend or foe) in base contact, roll to hit and to wound as normal. If the test is passed or the enemy model in base contact with kharn has the vehicle type, kharn acts normally.
- this.... just.... no. I'm sorry, but dear god no. That mechanic is making me cringe. A LD test... really? Are you honestly trying to go back to the concept that all world eaters are nothing but frothing mad-dog psychos that need to be on a leash so they won't hurt themselves or their allies?
Why is you're 'improved' kharn now vulnerable to psychic attacks? I'll be honest, that right there is why I would take the current version over your version. for 160 points he's one of the best damned character killers in the game and he gives the middle finger to psychic attacks.

As it stands, I see no reason to change Kharn in the slightest from how he's presented in the present Codex.
The only change I made to Abaddon was in regards to how the Daemon works with him. I haven't changed his stat line or his save or his wargear outside of that one modification. I feel that most of the Chaos Characters are pretty solid right now. The only one that I think needs some tweaking is Huron Blackheart.

Ok thanks for the criticism I will address each point as made


Ws8: heresy kharn is ws7, 10k years of near constant warfare I feel would improve this, when mechanically it makes little difference it is more of a fluff change.
The 're-roll only works on the charge (hatred) or when being charged, this means current kharn has very little chance of actually hitting his own models, not very befitting the betrayer.

Bs3: this is to represent not lack of skill but lack of coherent thought, kharn wants to take heads for the blood God, not shoot things to death, bs3 has also in the past been used to represent psychos that are too far gone to aim properly.

Chosen of the blood God: kharn has most of these rules, no eternal warrior, the eternal warrior is added to represent his being in the middle of some of the worst fighting the galaxy has ever seen and even when mortally wounded... Surviving to fight again, kharn and lucius deserve eternal warrior more than lysanander or Calgar.

Whirlwind of Gore: yes I am going with the 100% correct assumption that kharn is a frothing lunatic, but only when in the swirl of combat, note this is kharn, he is not a world eater, he WAS a world eater and as he said himself he cares nothing for the legion anymore, I'm not proposing world eaters are frothing lunatics I'm outright stating that when in combat kharn is.

Vulnerable to psychic powers: he has the collar of khorne still.

2+, 4++, 6+ fnp: 2+ is the to tie into the articifer armour he has that has been corrupted by chaos, 4++ is to bring in line chaos hq invulnerables with loyalist ones, named character need at least 4++ if a combat character. The 6+ fnp is a tie into to pre heresy world eaters that have gone so far down the line of madness they can shrug off wounds.

So all in all I am trying to make kharn one of the best hand to hand fighters in the game as opposed to middle ground that can die to a power fist, chaos characters historically have been combat power houses and since 4th they have been a bit lacking.

 Formosa wrote:
Ok thanks for the criticism I will address each point as made


Ws8: heresy kharn is ws7, 10k years of near constant warfare I feel would improve this, when mechanically it makes little difference it is more of a fluff change.
The 're-roll only works on the charge (hatred) or when being charged, this means current kharn has very little chance of actually hitting his own models, not very befitting the betrayer.

Bs3: this is to represent not lack of skill but lack of coherent thought, kharn wants to take heads for the blood God, not shoot things to death, bs3 has also in the past been used to represent psychos that are too far gone to aim properly.

Chosen of the blood God: kharn has most of these rules, no eternal warrior, the eternal warrior is added to represent his being in the middle of some of the worst fighting the galaxy has ever seen and even when mortally wounded... Surviving to fight again, kharn and lucius deserve eternal warrior more than lysanander or Calgar.

Whirlwind of Gore: yes I am going with the 100% correct assumption that kharn is a frothing lunatic, but only when in the swirl of combat, note this is kharn, he is not a world eater, he WAS a world eater and as he said himself he cares nothing for the legion anymore, I'm not proposing world eaters are frothing lunatics I'm outright stating that when in combat kharn is.

Vulnerable to psychic powers: he has the collar of khorne still.

2+, 4++, 6+ fnp: 2+ is the to tie into the articifer armour he has that has been corrupted by chaos, 4++ is to bring in line chaos hq invulnerables with loyalist ones, named character need at least 4++ if a combat character. The 6+ fnp is a tie into to pre heresy world eaters that have gone so far down the line of madness they can shrug off wounds.

So all in all I am trying to make kharn one of the best hand to hand fighters in the game as opposed to middle ground that can die to a power fist, chaos characters historically have been combat power houses and since 4th they have been a bit lacking.

where in the Chaos Space Marines book is the collar of khorne? (also that's just reinforcing the image of Khorne being kept on leash). Also if you're going to go the route that Kharn is just a frothing maniac in combat we can just ignore his LD entirely once he inflicts a wound and say his attacks can ONLY be inflicted against models in base to base contact with him. So he inflicts 7 attacks and there's 3 enemies and 4 allied berzerkers in base to base with im, hey those 4 berzekers are getting hit too. And he MUST always run and charge toward the nearest enemy.

Ever play the 3.5 edition World Eaters? Guess what, they were the lamest army in the game because all you had to was run a tank around about 8" away from them, cause... oh they can't shoot because they had to run, and they had to charge the Tank because it was the closest enemy unit. Oh wait, you could never actually claim to be close combat with a vehicle so... yeah I get to shoot you while you're banging on the tank, and it keeps moving every turn, and you keep getting shot every turn... and you can't do anything else because you're army is nothing but a bunch of frothing stupid lunatics that honestly have no business surviving.

And you're going to tell me that's Kharn? Seriously?

As for the 2/4/6 armor.... yeah. I disagree with your logic. Artifier armour has been shown taking more resources to maintain. So yes when he had the resources of the legion to maintain his armor and equipment, sure he can continue to use artificer armor. But as you've said, he's not a World Eater anymore so he doesn't have those resources to maintain the artificer armour... so yeah chances are he switched to power armour. And same point with the Iron halo.

As for making Kharn a beast in Combat.... he already is. Sure there are characters who can dish out more attacks with higher strength.... and they're a lot more expensive then Kharn. AND most character combat he's going to win 9 out of ten times anyway. Space marine captain that doesn't have a 4++ or better... yeah Kharns killin him. Tyranid Death Leather, he's killing it. Hell, with Armourbane on GoreChild, he's got a descent chance of taking out dreadnoughts. So... yeah. I still disagree that Kharn needs any fixes.