40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)

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**whembly**

Sigvatr wrote:
D weapons will, most likely, not allow cover saves. Anything else would be completely stupid.

The WD states invulnerables would be allowed except for 6s.

Also, according to Faeit's recent post: D weapons got toned down a bit. chart now goes....
...1 = nothing
2-5 = D3+1 wounds but you get to take Invul and Cover
...6 = 6 + D6 wounds no cover or Invul.

That's still mighty powah'ful if you ask me...

**mercury14**

mercury14 wrote:
- Is there any confirmation that ignores cover is -2 to cover?

- Is there any confirmation that D weapons don't allow cover saves?

^ shameless one-time self-bump

**DarknessEternal**

Brachiaraidos wrote:

For what it's worth, my over arching opinion on 40k would see D weapons less common, to bring it into a wider context. I'm still an advocate of Fantasy style percentage allocations. Whilst it didn't make Fantasy free of broken things, it has gone a long way to avoiding the problem. A 10-20% allocation for Lords of War, and keeping D only in said category, would work fine by me.

Oddly enough, Forge World's Legions army FOC which includes a Lord of War only allows up to 25% of the army total to be spent on that Lord of War slot.

**mercury14**

whembly wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
D weapons will, most likely, not allow cover saves. Anything else would be completely stupid.

The WD states invulnerables would be allowed except for 6s.

Also, according to Faeit's recent post: D weapons got toned down a bit. chart now goes....
...1 = nothing
2-5 = D3+1 wounds but you get to take Invul and Cover
...6 = 6 + D6 wounds no cover or Invul.

That's still mighty powah'ful if you ask me...

It's not... GTG in cover would give a 3+ save against D weapons. They'd kill like 2 tac marines if they hit a whole squad.

**Sigvatr**

Assuming that cover saves count as invulnerables

Not quite sure about how that's been handled so far, I am really tired and can't remember. Help appreciated. Or not. Haha.

**whembly**

Also... do we know for sure that the opponent can attempt to DtW a farseer from casting fortune? Like the old DA librarian table-wide Psyhic Hood?

**Byte**

mercury14 wrote:
mercury14 wrote:
- Is there any confirmation that ignores cover is -2 to cover?

- Is there any confirmation that D weapons don't allow cover saves?

^ shameless one-time self-bump

1. No.

2. The WD states invulnerables would be allowed except for 6s.

**rigeld2**

Brachiaraidos wrote:
Any any decision you can make pre-battle than you can make with certainty knowing your opponent cannot have a hard counter to is a gakky design choice within the game.

With D weapons ignoring everything, what's the hard counter to D weapons? Since everything must have a hard counter after all.

Would it be another D weapon? Do you not see how fething stupid that is?

**whembly**

mercury14 wrote:
whembly wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
D weapons will, most likely, not allow cover saves. Anything else would be completely stupid.

The WD states invulnerables would be allowed except for 6s.

Also, according to Faeit's recent post: D weapons got toned down a bit. chart now goes....
...1 = nothing
2-5 = D3+1 wounds but you get to take Invul and Cover
...6 = 6 + D6 wounds no cover or Invul.

That's still mighty powah'ful if you ask me...

It's not... GTG in cover would give a 3+ save against D weapons. They'd kill like 2 tac marines if they hit a whole squad.

*If* that chart is true... are you counting the "D3+1" accounting? If a large blast hits a whole 5 man squad, and rolls 2-5 for all five models... that's D3+1(wounds) times five models. Anywere from 10 - 20 wounds.

Right?

**Brachiaraidos**

rigeld2 wrote:
Brachiaraidos wrote:
Any any decision you can make pre-battle than you can make with certainty knowing your opponent cannot have a hard counter to is a gakky design choice within the game.

With D weapons ignoring everything, what's the hard counter to D weapons? Since everything must have a hard counter after all.

Would it be another D weapon? Do you not see how fething stupid that is?

The counter to a D weapon is based on whatever the D weapon comes in.

But the general apt response would be cheap as gak infantry with a big gun in each, for vehicles. Force your opponent to take shots on threats to his D weapon that he won't be making his points back on. Actually maneuver.

**Redsox84**

*Sorry if this has been Covered, 193 pages is a lot to skim through....*

Is it confirmed that to successfully cast a Psychic Power, you have to roll a 4+ on a d6 per mastery level of the attempted power? For example, in order to cast a level 2 psychic power, I must roll two or more 4+ (avoiding perils on double 6's?) on the number of dice of my choosing?

Is there a limit to how many dice a certain level psyker can use to cast?

**Vaktathi**

rigeld2 wrote:
Brachiaraidos wrote:
Any any decision you can make pre-battle than you can make with certainty knowing your opponent cannot have a hard counter to is a gakky design choice within the game.

With D weapons ignoring everything, what's the hard counter to D weapons? Since everything must have a hard counter after all.

Would it be another D weapon? Do you not see how fething stupid that is?

Most D weapon platforms don't require D weapons to remove. If you can deal with a couple Predators in cover, you can deal with a Knight. If you can deal with a trio of Leman Russ tanks you can deal with a Shadowsword. Even the Eldar Phantom isn't all that hardy (massed autocannon fire will kill it), it's just got an absurd amount of mobility and firepower.

**rigeld2**

Brachiaraidos wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Brachiaraidos wrote:
Any any decision you can make pre-battle than you can make with certainty knowing your opponent cannot have a hard counter to is a gakky design choice within the game.

With D weapons ignoring everything, what's the hard counter to D weapons? Since everything must have a hard counter after all.

Would it be another D weapon? Do you not see how fething stupid that is?

The counter to a D weapon is based on whatever the D weapon comes in.

But the general apt response would be cheap as gak infantry with a big gun in each, for vehicles. Force your opponent to take shots on threats to his D weapon that he won't be making his points back on. Actually maneuver.

The simple fact that lists become "D weapon" or "anti-D weapon" is bad design. Because that's what it'll boil down to.
You do realize that only IG can really field "cheap as gak infantry with a big gun in each" right? So essentially you want people to play D weapons and IG?

Yeah, that's great game design.

**Brachiaraidos**

rigeld2 wrote:
The counter to a D weapon is based on whatever the D weapon comes in.

But the general apt response would be cheap as gak infantry with a big gun in each, for vehicles. Force your opponent to take shots on threats to his D weapon that he won't be making his points back on. Actually maneuver.

The simple fact that lists become "D weapon" or "anti-D weapon" is bad design. Because that's what it'll boil down to.
You do realize that only IG can really field "cheap as gak infantry with a big gun in each" right? So essentially you want people to play D weapons and IG?

Yeah, that's great game design.

It's an ideal response. But it's hardly the only. The response to a D weapon pointing at you is not to stand close together, in essence, and everything else is a matter of preference.

All the ranged S: D I can think of comes in vehicles or- in two cases- bunkers. Any bunker blows easily enough from a single penetrating hit. A baneblade is still going to explode from a timely lascannon volley. Infantry in general is cheap and carries enough firepower to remove a Knight, Baneblade, machirius, even a Titan.

If you want, you can trade D weapon blows. Else just bloody think about your combat and don't play to your opponents strength.

And that's because these vehicles don't come with invun saves making them cheese. Apart from the Knight. Which only has D melee anyway, AFAIK.

Most D weapon platforms don't require D weapons to remove. If you can deal with a couple Predators in cover, you can deal with a Knight. If you can deal with a trio of Leman Russ tanks you can deal with a Shadowsword. Even the Eldar Phantom isn't all that hardy (massed autocannon fire will kill it), it's just got an absurd amount of mobility and firepower.

Well put

**rigeld2**

Vaktathi wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Brachiaraidos wrote:
Any any decision you can make pre-battle than you can make with certainty knowing your opponent cannot have a hard counter to is a gakky design choice within the game.

With D weapons ignoring everything, what's the hard counter to D weapons? Since everything must have a hard counter after all.

Would it be another D weapon? Do you not see how fething stupid that is?
Most D weapon platforms don't require D weapons to remove. If you can deal with a couple Predators in cover, you can deal with a Knight. If you can deal with a trio of Leman Russ tanks you can deal with a Shadowsword. Even the Eldar Phantom isn't all that hardy (massed autocannon fire will kill it), it's just got an absurd amount of mobility and firepower.

Not true.
First, a Knight has a 4+ invul, not 5+ cover. Second, a couple Preds rushing into CC ASAP just doesn't happen. And while he's in CC guess what I can't do?
That said, I don't really have a problem with Knights.

3 Leman Russ tanks will not delete a unit a turn. Simply won't happen. The Shadowsword will - and it'll be the unit(s) that threaten it first.
Massed autocannon fire killing a Phantom? I'll use the Revenant rules because that's what I have access to (Escalation).
9 HP with a 4+ field save. I'll ignore cover for now because it might not always be able to get cover.
9 HP that an Autocannon needs a 5 to glance. So that's 27 hits. Half your hits are ignored completely so it's really 52 hits. Autocannon spam is only possible with IG so BS3 - so 104 Autocannon shots, 52 barrels.
And there's 2 units a turn disappearing from the IG side. Plus whatever the rest of the Eldar army is.

But yeah - sure. D weapon models are easy to deal with without D weapons.

edit: What you're saying is akin to me recommending that Lasguns are totes the way to go against Monstrous Creatures. Just spam the crap out of them - it works fine!
It's not even close to the most efficient way and bringing it up is an attempt to hand-wave away issues.

**MWHistorian**

With conventional weapons, it'll usually take a couple of turns to kill something with a D weapon. If your list isn't optimised for anti super heavy combat, it'll take a few more. Meanwhile the D weapons are wiping out a unit each turn, chances are the units that are most likely to kill it. So the whole game comes down to trying to kill the D weapon and meanwhile the rest of D's army is still doing their thing.

Totally fair!

**N.I.B.**

Gahd, five pages of D-iscussion.

I'm much more interested in the Tyranid love that's currently spreading from Faeit. Ready your salt for AP2 Vector Strikes and all armies (Tyranids!) Battlebrothering themselves:

via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
Some of this is old news. Other parts not.

Vehicle chart has shifted one spot. Now tanks only explode on a 7+

Jink got punched in the neck. Now you have to choose wether or not to Jink after you are hit. If you choose to Jink you get your Jink save (which is now 4+) but you only snap shoot next turn. This is the rule in all cases. (Flyers,Bikes,skimmers, etc....)

All units except for Zooming flyers now score.

Interceptor + Skyfire no longer allows firing at normal BS at ground targets. You always snap fire at ground targets now if you have skyfire.

If you take a Battleforged list your troop units gain an ability where they cant be contested while holding and objective except by another unit with the same ability.

Psychic phase works as follows.....Roll a D6. Both players get this many dice. Then both players add up all their mastery levels and each player adds dice to his or her base pool one a 1 for 1 basis. (so If a 5 is rolled both players get 5. Player A has 4 Mastery levels so he ends up with 9 dice. Player B has 3 Mastery Levels so he has 8 dice.) Warp charges are now the powers difficulty. In order to cast a power you need a number of successes on D6s equal to its warp charges. A success is a 4+ on a D6. (If player A wanted to cast a 2 Warp Charge power he picks any number of dice and rolls them. 2 of them need to be 4+ for him to succeed.) If you fail in casting a power bad things happen to you. To Deny the Witch you choose howerver many dice you want a roll them. You need to score an equal or greater number of successes than the caster to cancel the power. A success on a Deny roll is a 6+. You get a bonus of +1 to each of the dice you roll for being a psyker, being higher mastery level or having Adimantium Will.

D weapons got toned down a bit. chart now goes....1 = nothing2-5 = D3+1 wounds but you get to take Invul and Cover 6 = 6 + D6 wounds no cover or Invul.

Battle Bothers can now get into each others transports.

You can now ally with Come the Apoc units. They get the same drawbacks as distrusted plus they cant be deployed within 12 inches of each other.

All armies are now Battle Brothers with their selves.

Vector strike is now AP 2 and you only score 1 hit per Vector Strike unless you are a Montrous creature then its still 1 plus a D3

Montrous creatures only take grounding checks if they are wounded not if they are just hit.

If you shoot a unit of mixed weapons you resolve each weapon type one at a time. Example...... If you shoot a Tac squad with 8 Bolters, a Melta and a Missile Launcher you roll to Hit and Wound with your bolters (or which ever of the 3 weapon types you choose to do first) then your opponent makes saves then you move on to the next weapon. Repeat until yuo fire the entire unit.Wounds are still taken from the front.

Vehicle Squadrons got better. You now keep resolving damage to the closest vehicle until it dies then move on to the next closest. No more having to spread all the Pens and Glances around then resolving.

**mercury14**

Redsox84 wrote:
*Sorry if this has been Covered, 193 pages is a lot to skim through....*

Is it confirmed that to successfully cast a Psychic Power, you have to roll a 4+ on a d6 per mastery level of the attempted power? For example, in order to cast a level 2 psychic power, I must roll two or more 4+ (avoiding perils on double 6's?) on the number of dice of my choosing?

Is there a limit to how many dice a certain level psyker can use to cast?

Nope, feel free to throw down ten dice with your lv 4 Eldrad.

Have fun not rolling two 6s in there though.

**timetowaste85**

I thought only demons periled on double sixes, and everybody else periled on doubles, period.

**rigeld2**

timetowaste85 wrote:
I thought only demons periled on double sixes, and everybody else periled on doubles, period.

When casting demonology spells, that's correct.

Anything else should be just double (or more) 6s.

**Drakmord**

What is the advantage of being able to BB yourself, outside of Tyranids who do not have allies? Just getting extra slots?

Playing UB would do that better, since you don't have to pay for the mandatory HQ and troops, wouldn't it?

**Dracos**

Except then you lose the Battleforged bonuses.

**Drakmord**

Dracos wrote:
Except then you lose the Battleforged bonuses.

Good point, I had forgotten about that. Having some extra royal courtiers would be nice sometimes.

**Vaktathi**

rigeld2 wrote:

Not true.
First, a Knight has a 4+ invul, not 5+ cover.

Lots of cover gives 4+sv's (such as Ruins and Aegis lines), and the Knight's save is directional, it only works in one arc, while you can get cover from multiple angles.

Second, a couple Preds rushing into CC ASAP just doesn't happen. And while he's in CC guess what I can't do?

If it's rushing into CC then you've likely got more tools to bring to bear, like meltaguns, a lot easier, and get around that directional save a lot easier. Either way, I think we agree there is no need for D weapons to engage a Knight.

3 Leman Russ tanks will not delete a unit a turn. Simply won't happen. The Shadowsword will - and it'll be the unit(s) that threaten it first.

A single S: D weapon is only going to delete a unit a turn if it's a tank or a small sized unit that's clumped up and your shot doesn't scatter. Either way, no need for D weapons to remove a Shadowsword. Other than the postulation that it'll be able to see, hit, and destroy everything that's going to be a threat to it before they can do anything back (which is silly assuming one pieplate a turn that needs LoS), you haven't shown that it's harder to kill than the Russ tanks. In fact, it's probably easier since you can cascade explodes results better and concentrate your firepower easier.

Massed autocannon fire killing a Phantom? I'll use the Revenant rules because that's what I have access to (Escalation).

Revenant, that's what I meant.

9 HP with a 4+ field save. I'll ignore cover for now because it might not always be able to get cover.
9 HP that an Autocannon needs a 5 to glance. So that's 27 hits. Half your hits are ignored completely so it's really 52 hits. Autocannon spam is only possible with IG so BS3 - so 104 Autocannon shots, 52 barrels.
And there's 2 units a turn disappearing from the IG side. Plus whatever the rest of the Eldar army is.

Yes, it's firepower is disgusting, but again, the thing itself doesn't require more firepower than say, an equivalent points investment in Holofield tanks. Lets say we're looking at a 150-165pt holofield tank, (lets assume wave serpents so we can largely ignore pens, unlikes on say if it were a Fire Prism or Falcon), AV12 3HP and a 4+ cover save in the open. At ~150pts each we can get 5 to a Revenant. That's 15 AV12 HP's with 4+ cover saves as long as they move. That'd require 180 BS3 autocannons, assuming no explodes results, and all separate targets that can't cascade Explodes results the way SH's do. I don't see people saying you need D weapons to take down 5 Holofield tanks.

edit: What you're saying is akin to me recommending that Lasguns are totes the way to go against Monstrous Creatures. Just spam the crap out of them - it works fine!
It's not even close to the most efficient way and bringing it up is an attempt to hand-wave away issues.

Not really, only if you assume that the D units will wipe out anything that can hurt them before they can engage, which is realistically only a possibility with the Revenant (which I'd agree is disgusting, but even compared to a Shadowsword it's painfully overpowered on a relative points basis)

**MarkyMark**

So taking Tzeentch casters for example, I am assuming that they will peril on any double on say divination/telepathy/biomancy (and the other BRB tables) but only peril on dbl 6 on malefic and tzeentch tables?.

**ashcroft**

N.I.B. wrote:
via an anonymous source on Faeit

You can now ally with Come the Apoc units. They get the same drawbacks as distrusted plus they cant be deployed within 12 inches of each other.

If they attempt to justify some of these combos in the fluff the results will be equal parts hilarious, cringe inducing and appalling. Daemon summoning loyalists will be the least of it...

**Vector Strike**

N.I.B. wrote:
Gahd, five pages of D-iscussion.

I'm much more interested in the Tyranid love that's currently spreading from Faeit. Ready your salt for AP2 Vector Strikes and all armies (Tyranids!) Battlebrothering themselves:

via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
Some of this is old news. Other parts not.

1. All units except for Zooming flyers now score.

2. Interceptor + Skyfire no longer allows firing at normal BS at ground targets. You always snap fire at ground targets now if you have skyfire.

3. Psychic phase (...)A success on a Deny roll is a 6+. You get a bonus of +1 to each of the dice you roll for being a psyker, being higher mastery level or having Adimantium Will.

4. D weapons got toned down a bit. chart now goes....1 = nothing2-5 = D3+1 wounds but you get to take Invul and Cover 6 = 6 + D6 wounds no cover or Invul.

5. Battle Bothers can now get into each others transports.

6. You can now ally with Come the Apoc units. They get the same drawbacks as distrusted plus they cant be deployed within 12 inches of each other.

7. All armies are now Battle Brothers with their selves.

8. Vector strike is now AP 2 and you only score 1 hit per Vector Strike unless you are a Montrous creature then its still 1 plus a D3

1. Nice and makes sense. Would have liked even more if Swooping FMCs didn't score as well.

2. Fortifications' Quad-gun and Icarus Lascannon got worse! Good thing Velocity Tracker lets you choose when to use Skyfire or not

3. So the Deny bonuses aren't cumulative with themselves? 5+ tops, as it seems.

4. Allowing invul and cover will make D weapons much more to the liking of my fellas.

5. That's quite good. Too bad Devilfishes aren't a awesome transport... Outside scenarios: Karandras with Wracks and Haemunculus, Lelith with Striking Scorpions/Banshees, SoB's priests with Terminators in a Land Raider, SM shenanigans among themselves

6. Friend of mine plays Tyranids. He's keen to ally some Legion of the Damned to deal with stuff he has problems with. On my side, getting some nice FMCs/hordies to melee the enemy sounds promising.

7. Space Marines sharing the love of their rules. This is excellent, even more with (5.). No need for Supplements to get more slots!

8. Because FMCs need even more buffs. d3+1 AP2 autohits?!? Jesus.

**Drakmord**

ashcroft wrote:
N.I.B. wrote:
via an anonymous source on Faeit

You can now ally with Come the Apoc units. They get the same drawbacks as distrusted plus they cant be deployed within 12 inches of each other.
If they attempt to justify some of these combos in the fluff the results will be equal parts hilarious, cringe inducing and appalling. Daemon summoning loyalists will be the least of it...

BA and Necrons can finally hit the table together. They just have to hide their affection for one another during deployment.

**Yodhrin**

Brachiaraidos wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
Brachiaraidos wrote:

Why is reasonable than a model can survive taking a deathstrike to the face with no qualms?

Because the game is balanced around certain units being able to survive a deathstike, and they're priced accordingly for that invulnerable saves.

Which is, in my humble opinion, a design flaw. Your mileage may vary.

What is the point of allowing investment in expensive and limited scope weapons of such magnitude if they are no different in mechanics to a lasgun?

Hyperbole weakens your argument. If a death strike actually hits its target it will wipe out 90% of the non-MC/Vehicle units in the game.

Stop dodging the question. Why do you think that something that insta-kills everything in the game is a good mechanic, in a game that's built around expensive units having high durability?

Because any game that allows a build that focuses on high durability needs an appropriate response. Anything, no matter what it is, should have a counter. And a hard counter, at that. That's how warfare works and that's what I feel the game should offer- and in many ways currently does in every way but invun saves.

If my opponent has invested all of his points into one unit, that should be a punishable and poor decision. Promoting tactical inflexibility in lieu of invun saves is nothing short of lazy, and, to pay homage to GW, forging a shoddy narrative.

Anything else in the game has its counter. A flier spamming army meets one with interceptor out the arse, it pays for its inflexibility. Human waves wither to templates. A gimped ward save unit currently has, or had, one answer. Which was the investment of a huge amount of points into one consolidated shot.

And that's a perfectly reasonable way to invest points, as far as I'm concerned. I lose a lot tactical adaptability by spending all those points onto one big ass gun to deal with a problem. Because if my big ass gun does not deal with the problem (hello 7th ed), there is now no way to deal with that problem with investing multiple times the points cost my opponent has. The prevalence of invun saves you cannot remove or circumvent is now a way to be able to field a unit you can say with nigh on 100% certainty will make a net profit in its battlefield life; even if it dies without killing anything, the firepower invested into killing it will have cost so much more than the unit that it operates as a profit for your army.

Any any decision you can make pre-battle than you can make with certainty knowing your opponent cannot have a hard counter to is a gakky design choice within the game.

If the game needs a hard-counter to invulnerable saves, create a hard counter for invulnerable saves, not a hard counter to everything which is what sD weapons are. Not one of my armies has a deathstar of any sort, in fact the only invulnerable saves in them are ones which come default on HQs, and a counts-as unit that uses the fairly underwhelming Legion of the Damned unit rules, but a sD weapon will be just as devastating against those armies as against deathstar units that rely on invulnerable saves. You lose absolutely no "tactical flexibility" by taking a sD weapon, because a sD weapon can successfully engage any target bar flyers(which you have the rest of your army to deal with), and do so better than any other ranged alternative - Guardsmen? Dead. Marines? Dead. Assault Terminators? Dead. Aspect Warriors? Dead. Orks? Dead. MANz? Dead. Tanks? Dead. Non-D-carrying Superheavies? Dead. It doesn't matter if you come up against single-wound-low-save GEQ, elite heavily-armoured assault troops, groups of multiwound MCs, or an armoured company, ranged sD weapons as they stand will ruin their gak just as surely as it will a screamerstar.

**Vector Strike**

mercury14 wrote:
Redsox84 wrote:
*Sorry if this has been Covered, 193 pages is a lot to skim through....*

Is it confirmed that to successfully cast a Psychic Power, you have to roll a 4+ on a d6 per mastery level of the attempted power? For example, in order to cast a level 2 psychic power, I must roll two or more 4+ (avoiding perils on double 6's?) on the number of dice of my choosing?

Is there a limit to how many dice a certain level psyker can use to cast?

Nope, feel free to throw down ten dice with your lv 4 Eldrad.

Have fun not rolling two 6s in there though.

There is a limit, as rumours go by. The casting Psyker's ML+1. So Eldrad can use at most 5 dice.

MarkyMark wrote:So taking Tzeentch casters for example, I am assuming that they will peril on any double on say divination/telepathy/biomancy (and the other BRB tables) but only peril on dbl 6 on malefic and tzeentch tables?.

I didn't see any indication this would happen, nor even why it should.
I'd even say Tzeentch casters should be even less prone to Perils (triple 6), as being so connected to the, well, god of Warp-magicks. Alas, this won't be.