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I hope that change to Smash isn't true. If it is, as a Daemon player I'll have almost zero reliable ways of removing tanks. Weaker vehicles and some walkers I could handle, but anything AV13 or higher will be virtually immune to the shooting I can get with any reliability. A lot of my anti-tank options are results of random rolls on reward tables or psychic shooting attacks with variable strength.

For example, shooting with Bolt of Change (S:6+D6) I'd need to get the power off, not have it denied, get a high result on the roll to determine strength, have the target fail a cover or invul save if appropriate, then get a good result on the pen chart. And thats if I even get that power in the first place. The primaris Tzeentch power is S:5, which is fine against rear armor 10 or weaker vehicles but if that's all I get (and it's happened) the tougher vehicles are immune to shooting and I've had to Smash them open.

I still dont believe Unbound will be as rampant as the doomsayers believe. Sure there will always be TFG, but tournaments and the like, not so much

Also the scoring thing makes troops a bit more valuable with Objective Secured now.

And Vehicles still get hullpointed to death. Its a balance between parking lots and the junkyard we have now

for a brief period of time will Blood Angels dedicated Land Raiders have a time in the sun before it is taken away in a new BA codex?

Dont daemons also get crazy gifts that have lance and stuff? im sure there are more than 1 way to skin a tank.

and you attack from behind anyway so it still is ok.
You wanted FMC to have a huge survivability boost (only one grounding check and only on a wound) and keep their damage potential, or even have it improved as they can now fire weapons and spells !!!!
Flying circus would have been the only way to play then....

 Desubot wrote:
Dont daemons also get crazy gifts that have lance and stuff? im sure there are more than 1 way to skin a tank.

Yes, Daemons have a S:8 Ap:1 Lance attack as one result on a D6 table that you pay 20 points to roll on. Note that I said 'reliable way' to get anti-tank. Other armies (such as Space Marines) can decide to add Melta or Lascannons or other anti-tank by purchasing them directly, and these shots cannot be blocked by Deny the Witch. Paying 20 points for a 1 in 6 shot of getting a semi-decent anti-tank option isn't at all reliable.

 Leth wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Its tuesday and people they have seen the books, where are the scans?

If I get mine tomorrow expect a deluge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Consider me a Vegan.

And overall I don't think most people are against deathstars - as the new edition will have them too.

It's about the points costs and the disadvantages that should be inherent in taking them.

Each edition has it's own, I'm just not interested in getting on the merry go round again.

Just doesnt make sense to devote time an energy(especially negative energy) to something that no longer affects you. I tried warmachine. Put down 500+ dollars into it. About 5 games in I realized I just despised the entire game, hated the rules, hated the lack of customization, hated how the themed lists with the warcaster I wanted to run sucked, hated how the models I like sucked and to get a decent force I had to use models that I hated the look of. Absolutely hated it.

I dont sit around going to warmachine forums talking about how much I thought it sucked, I barely even give it a second thought.

+1 there

+2.

So what exactly hasn't been nerfed? Ground based vehicles?

Ground based vehicles have gotten super buffed dude. Now scoring, potentially have objective secured from the troops slot, might be giving transported dudes relentless while inside, harder to destroy....AWESOME SAUCE

So essentially 5th ed parking lots again? awesome.

Not at all dude, they still die to hull points like before, just harder to get one of shots that blow them up, skimmers no longer default to their cover saves, have to reduce fire power to get it. EVERYONE gained scoring so them getting scoring is no big deal.

Hmm...yeah doesn't seem TOO terrible, then.

sleekid wrote:
and you attack from behind anyway so it still is ok.
You wanted FMC to have a huge survivability boost (only one grounding check and only on a wound) and keep their damage potential, or even have it improved as they can now fire weapons and spells !!!!
Flying circus would have been the only way to play then....

I agree, not the end of the world. Tzeentch princes/LoC with the twig of change for +2 strength and you're already s8 ap2. That's generally enough unless you have Land Raiders on your hands.

I think the smash was more because of how easy they could ID characters making anything without eternal warrior a no take.

I am sure MC might get something to make up for it in their basic rules.

Or Iron Arm. Iron arm going to a flat +3/+3 might help

 undertow wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Dont daemons also get crazy gifts that have lance and stuff? im sure there are more than 1 way to skin a tank.

Yes, Daemons have a S:8 Ap:1 Lance attack as one result on a D6 table that you pay 20 points to roll on. Note that I said 'reliable way' to get anti-tank. Other armies (such as Space Marines) can decide to add Melta or Lascannons or other anti-tank by purchasing them directly, and these shots cannot be blocked by Deny the Witch. Paying 20 points for a 1 in 6 shot of getting a semi-decent anti-tank option isn't at all reliable.

The warp is a fickle beast.

Awww yeah forging the narrative!.

Do they not have access to CC weapons that actually boosts stats like a maul or hammer?

tracked tanks are still super easy to kill, HP's alone make them 33-60% easier to kill in most cases than in 5E (depending on the weapon in question), the major thing is that there's no longer much of a point to bringing Lascannons or Lances anymore, spam those autocannons as mercilessly as you can.

sleekid wrote:
and you attack from behind anyway so it still is ok.
You wanted FMC to have a huge survivability boost (only one grounding check and only on a wound) and keep their damage potential, or even have it improved as they can now fire weapons and spells !!!!
Flying circus would have been the only way to play then....

You can only Smash if you're on the ground, so the grounding check doesn't really enter into it. I'm talking about anti-tank options and that now I have none that I can reliably count on having in any given game. Also, I mentioned that the shooting I can reliably get can deal with light vehicles (Rhinos, some Walkers, etc) if I can get side or rear shots. It's the heaver vehicles AV13+ that will be virtually immune to my shooting.

Also, I may be able to cast powers and shoot, but most of my shooting is psychic, so I'm not really gaining anything here. My shooting is just moving from the shooting phase to the psychic phase. If I do happen to get a shooting ability from a reward, then yes I'm better off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Dont daemons also get crazy gifts that have lance and stuff? im sure there are more than 1 way to skin a tank.

Yes, Daemons have a S:8 Ap:1 Lance attack as one result on a D6 table that you pay 20 points to roll on. Note that I said 'reliable way' to get anti-tank. Other armies (such as Space Marines) can decide to add Melta or Lascannons or other anti-tank by purchasing them directly, and these shots cannot be blocked by Deny the Witch. Paying 20 points for a 1 in 6 shot of getting a semi-decent anti-tank option isn't at all reliable.

The warp is a fickle beast.

Awww yeah forging the narrative!.

Do they not have access to CC weapons that actually boosts stats like a maul or hammer?

Yeah, but not for all gods. Tzeentch Princes can get a Staff that adds +2 Strength. But still that's only going to Glance a Landraider on a Pen roll of 6.

Again, reliable anti-tank against AV13+ is no longer possible for Daemons if the Smash nerf is true.

FMC get STR 10 vector strikes right?

They said vector strike is ap2 now

Coupled with less danger from grounding.

 Leth wrote:
I think the smash was more because of how easy they could ID characters making anything without eternal warrior a no take.

I am sure MC might get something to make up for it in their basic rules.

Or Iron Arm. Iron arm going to a flat +3/+3 might help

Tell that to the Tyranid players, we love to Iron Arm our Monstrous creatures... oh wait, that got taken away.

If the rumour of Smash attack being just one attack, this is yet another blow for Tyranids.

As it is, Smash attack on our 'scary' WS3 I2 A3 monstrous creatures is not that bad, it gets us 2 attacks at WS3 S10 AP2, so 1 hit and 1 in 3 chance of penetrating armour 14, and a 1 in 2 chance of penetrating armour 13. Then a 1 in 3 chance of destroying the vehicle.

Smash attack being just one attack is a real punch to our ability to deal with armour higher than 13. With the new damage table, we are going to really struggle to deal with them at range, aside from just stripping them of hull points. The Rupture Cannon is a Joke at AP4, Warp Lance is useful. Just very short ranged at 18" and has 6 hurdles to leap through (generation of Warp Charges, rolling enough successes, the opponent not making their Deny the witch, rolling to hit, rolling to penetrate, rolling high enough on the damage table).

Taking away psychic disciplines, taking away a whole game play style, not allowing the ability to ally with ourselves, and then this.

Someone at GW must really not like Tyranids.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
FMC get STR 10 vector strikes right?

They said vector strike is ap2 now

I haven't seen anything about that. Currently VS is the base Strength of the model unless otherwise noted for that model. That means no wargear or psychic power (Iron Arm) can boost VS strength. My Daemon Princes always VS at S6, regardless of load out.

 undertow wrote:
I hope that change to Smash isn't true. If it is, as a Daemon player I'll have almost zero reliable ways of removing tanks. Weaker vehicles and some walkers I could handle, but anything AV13 or higher will be virtually immune to the shooting I can get with any reliability. A lot of my anti-tank options are results of random rolls on reward tables or psychic shooting attacks with variable strength.

Since when do demons rely on shooting to take out vehicles? You don't have any greater demons or demon princes? If they're still good at taking on vehicles in CC, the problem isn't with the rules but rather with the army style you've taken. Isn't that what monstrous creatures are for? I could complain that my tau can't reliably take on tyrannid monstrous creatures in close combat but I realize that isn't how they're *supposed* to take them out. I could also take a devastator heavy list and wonder the same thing with my marines.

 stonehorse wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I think the smash was more because of how easy they could ID characters making anything without eternal warrior a no take.

I am sure MC might get something to make up for it in their basic rules.

Or Iron Arm. Iron arm going to a flat +3/+3 might help

Tell that to the Tyranid players, we love to Iron Arm our Monstrous creatures... oh wait, that got taken away.

If the rumour of Smash attack being just one attack, this is yet another blow for Tyranids.

As it is, Smash attack on our 'scary' WS3 I2 A3 monstrous creatures is not that bad, it gets us 2 attacks at WS3 S10 AP2, so 1 hit and 1 in 3 chance of penetrating armour 14, and a 1 in 2 chance of penetrating armour 13. Then a 1 in 3 chance of destroying the vehicle.

Smash attack being just one attack is a real punch to our ability to deal with armour higher than 13. With the new damage table, we are going to really struggle to deal with them at range, aside from just stripping them of hull points. The Rupture Cannon is a Joke at AP4, Warp Lance is useful. Just very short ranged at 18" and has 6 hurdles to leap through (generation of Warp Charges, rolling enough successes, the opponent not making their Deny the witch, rolling to hit, rolling to penetrate, rolling high enough on the damage table).

Taking away psychic disciplines, taking away a whole game play style, not allowing the ability to ally with ourselves, and then this.

Someone at GW must really not like Tyranids.

I thought I heard that all armies can now ally with themselves as BB?

Also don't stray from hope yet man, it's a big book full of rules. who knows what else is in there to help you. They may even FAQ nids to have Biomancy once again.

 stonehorse wrote:
not allowing the ability to ally with ourselves, and then this.

Someone at GW must really not like Tyranids.

Wasn't it mentioned that all armies are now battle brothers with themselves?

 undertow wrote:
I hope that change to Smash isn't true. If it is, as a Daemon player I'll have almost zero reliable ways of removing tanks...

Except summoning more daemons to summon more daemons... not a lot of pity to be had here

I was refering to how things stood when the 6th edition Codex came out. Allowing Tyranids to take themselves as an ally would really help.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
not allowing the ability to ally with ourselves, and then this.

Someone at GW must really not like Tyranids.

Wasn't it mentioned that all armies are now battle brothers with themselves?

No need, just purchase another detachment from your own dex... looks like for every 2 troops you can grab an HQ and redo the Force Org again and again and again (which I think is a good idea, TBH).

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
FMC get STR 10 vector strikes right?

They said vector strike is ap2 now

Coupled with less danger from grounding.

VS uses unmodified STR, unless specified (like heldrake and hive crone)

Wilson wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I think the smash was more because of how easy they could ID characters making anything without eternal warrior a no take.

I am sure MC might get something to make up for it in their basic rules.

Or Iron Arm. Iron arm going to a flat +3/+3 might help

Tell that to the Tyranid players, we love to Iron Arm our Monstrous creatures... oh wait, that got taken away.

If the rumour of Smash attack being just one attack, this is yet another blow for Tyranids.

As it is, Smash attack on our 'scary' WS3 I2 A3 monstrous creatures is not that bad, it gets us 2 attacks at WS3 S10 AP2, so 1 hit and 1 in 3 chance of penetrating armour 14, and a 1 in 2 chance of penetrating armour 13. Then a 1 in 3 chance of destroying the vehicle.

Smash attack being just one attack is a real punch to our ability to deal with armour higher than 13. With the new damage table, we are going to really struggle to deal with them at range, aside from just stripping them of hull points. The Rupture Cannon is a Joke at AP4, Warp Lance is useful. Just very short ranged at 18" and has 6 hurdles to leap through (generation of Warp Charges, rolling enough successes, the opponent not making their Deny the witch, rolling to hit, rolling to penetrate, rolling high enough on the damage table).

Taking away psychic disciplines, taking away a whole game play style, not allowing the ability to ally with ourselves, and then this.

Someone at GW must really not like Tyranids.

I thought I heard that all armies can now ally with themselves as BB?

Also don't stray from hope yet man, it's a big book full of rules. who knows what else is in there to help you. They may even FAQ nids to have Biomancy once again.

You're assuming that they're even aware of this problem because it seems that GW doesn't really understand their own game when they nerf already weak things. Why do they want near useless units? I disagree with OP units, but I can see that its a gimmick to sell models, but weakening things like Nids, Blood Angels and SOB? Its lazy, ignorant and inexcusable.

 warboss wrote:

 undertow wrote:
I hope that change to Smash isn't true. If it is, as a Daemon player I'll have almost zero reliable ways of removing tanks. Weaker vehicles and some walkers I could handle, but anything AV13 or higher will be virtually immune to the shooting I can get with any reliability. A lot of my anti-tank options are results of random rolls on reward tables or psychic shooting attacks with variable strength.

Since when do demons rely on shooting to take out vehicles? You don't have any greater demons or demon princes? If they're still good at taking on vehicles in CC, the problem isn't with the rules but rather with the army style you've taken. Isn't that what monstrous creatures are for? I could complain that my tau can't reliably take on tyrannid monstrous creatures in close combat but I realize that isn't how they're *supposed* to take them out. I could also take a devastator heavy list and wonder the same thing with my marines.

Please pay attention. I'm saying that Smash in CC is currently my way of dealing with high AV vehicles (13+). If the nerf to Smash is true we will no longer be able to drop heavy vehicles in CC and Daemon shooting isn't up to the task of reliably dealing with AV13+.

Also, Daemons have decent shooting abilities. Light vehicles such as Rhinos or anything light that I can get a rear or side armor shot on I can take out. I'm strictly talking about AV13+ vehicles and no longer having any reliable ways to deal with them, shooting or otherwise.

aka people caring about unbound when battle forged is just as silly from the sounds of it.


RIP FOC you were a good friend and generous lover.




On the upside, thankfully snapfire is still bs1. My dakkajet is happy.

I am still gonna take lascannons because they are good at instant death as well as just removing armor saves from the equation.

Also knights. Now that regular things cant get the explode result. You gonna want some AP 1/2

To get 6 hull points will require 12 glances/pens to get through the shield, which will require 72ish autocannon hits.
Or for a lascannon will require 24 hits but at any point if you get a 6 on the pen it will remove additional hull points

Heads up for those that ordered Munitorum Edition....

Wahey a free book and a £50 voucher lol

GW Email Below........

Dear Customer,

We are writing to advise you of a delay on your recent order containing the Warhammer 40,000: Munitorum Edition.

Due to circumstances beyond our control, we are not able to get the order to your Retail Store in time for the Release Date, this Saturday, 24th May. We can however guarantee you will be able to collect your Edition in-store from 12 noon on Wednesday 28th May.

To apologise for the disappointment and inconvenience, we would like to offer you a free of charge copy of the Standard Edition book, which will be available for you to collect in-store from this Saturday.

We will also be sending you a Virtual Gift Voucher for £50 for you to spend in the Webstore. You will receive this Gift Voucher in a separate e-mail.

If you would like to change the delivery of your order to a different address, please contact our Customer Services team to arrange this on 0115 91 40000 (Monday to Friday 10am – 6pm)

We sincerely apologise for the inconvenience.

Kind regards

Scott Edwards.

Games Workshop Customer Service

 Lobukia wrote:

 undertow wrote:
I hope that change to Smash isn't true. If it is, as a Daemon player I'll have almost zero reliable ways of removing tanks...

Except summoning more daemons to summon more daemons... not a lot of pity to be had here

So I'll be summoning Daemons that can't remove tanks to summon more Daemons that can't remove tanks in order to remove tanks?

Good for them, and good for you.

That is nicely done on their part there. You get some rules in the mean time and some money for your troubles. Well done GW.