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rigeld2 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
You can buy venomthropes for cover as well as grenades. With enough elite slots you can buy them one each without losing out. two units of 10 termagaunts now opens up everything so whats that 100 points to get 3 of every other slot? Yea not seeing a lot of points spent in troops to make it work. In addition you can spam zoanthropes now for easy synapse and some of the cheapest access to 2 warp charges.

two x flying hive tyrants with double leech
3x venomthrope
2x zoanthrope
4x 10 man termagaunts
7x carnifex with adrenal split however you want
50 points to work with.

Not the best list, but it gives you an idea of what you can work with. Or you can go 3-6 exocrines and a skyshield landing pad with zoanthropes and venomthropes for a 2+ cover 4+ invul all the time potentially with FNP. The options go on for nidzilla.

Oh boy - 7 Carnifexes that will do jack all over the course of the game. Well built list. Truly you understand the ins and outs of the Tyranid codex.
hint: the Shrouded bubble is pretty small. And having 2 Synapse is just a bad idea (the 2 Flyrants can't be counted on because they move fast).
But that's okay. You schooled me well.

Wow, maybe get off your god damn high horse and realize that I was not trying to school you. I was trying to get the ideas flowing for how you could make your list work with the new edition. I even said it was a bad list in my post but you were too busy looking for flaws to actually read it.

But I am sorry I wasted my time, you are so dedicated to being miserable that even trying to think about ways to make it work is a waste of time. My bad.

Deny the Witch question. The new rule states:
"For a Deny the Witch Test to be Successful, you need to nullify all of the warp charges that were successfully harnessed by the psycher when he passed his psychic test"

Does that mean that if I'm casting a 2 WC spell, and I roll 3 successes, that in order to deny it, my opponent has to roll 3 denies? Or only 2? RAW it would seem to be 3, right?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


A problem? No, not really. But 'still solid', the words you used to describe it, doesn't a imply huge incredible nerf. The one guaranteed power you get, the primaris power, has been nerfed a tremendous amount. I don't think most people fully understand how much harder it is going to be to fire off warp charge two powers reliably.

Overexagerate much?

You have to understand that most of the powergaming community relied on that power to save them from the dice. Now it´s back to square one and they feel like the game has taken then fun away from them and replaced it with balance. Offcourse they feel cheated and mad, everything is different now. Psykers will demand effort and it will go wrong sometimes. How can you reliably win if things go wrong?

MadmanMSU wrote:
Any word yet on Fast vehicles?

Fast vehicles move 12" flat out, if moved at combat speed can fire all weapons, cruising speed fire 2 weapons at full be rest as snap shots

 tarnish wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


A problem? No, not really. But 'still solid', the words you used to describe it, doesn't a imply huge incredible nerf. The one guaranteed power you get, the primaris power, has been nerfed a tremendous amount. I don't think most people fully understand how much harder it is going to be to fire off warp charge two powers reliably.

Overexagerate much?

You have to understand that most of the powergaming community relied on that power to save them from the dice. Now it´s back to square one and they feel like the game has taken then fun away from them and replaced it with balance. Offcourse they feel cheated and mad, everything is different now. Psykers will demand effort and it will go wrong sometimes. How can you reliably win if things go wrong?

+1 for the chuckle and the avatar haha

Aww no change to walkers so all my dreads remain men.

SeanDrake wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:
Any word yet on Fast vehicles?

Fast vehicles move 12" flat out, if moved at combat speed can fire all weapons, cruising speed fire 2 weapons at full be rest as snap shots

Anything special for passengers or just all snaps at cruising still?

tag8833 wrote:
Deny the Witch question. The new rule states:
"For a Deny the Witch Test to be Successful, you need to nullify all of the warp charges that were successfully harnessed by the psycher when he passed his psychic test"

Does that mean that if I'm casting a 2 WC spell, and I roll 3 successes, that in order to deny it, my opponent has to roll 3 denies? Or only 2? RAW it would seem to be 3, right?

It appears that is clearly intended to work that way, to me. Remember that more dice increases the risk to the psyker and if they die, no power at all.

Wilson wrote:

It's a dice game.... expect lots of dice?

If you're after less dice rolling, I hear in monopoly you only have to roll two dice per player turn. OR better yet!!!

checkers! all you have to do is move!

sounds great for you.

Entirely missing the point.

There's a way to have a dice rolling game use a sensible amount of dice. Rolling absolutely everything on a random D3 or D6 or a table takes away from the players actions. That, and having to roll everything slows the game down, instead of just "2" rather than "D3".

But just so you understand, look at the old way, and look at the new way. Both involve rolling dice. Both will have roughly the same outcome. One is simpler, more efficient, easier to track, and easier to resolve; the other is a bloated mess.

 Desubot wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:
Any word yet on Fast vehicles?

Fast vehicles move 12" flat out, if moved at combat speed can fire all weapons, cruising speed fire 2 weapons at full be rest as snap shots

Anything special for passengers or just all snaps at cruising still?

Nothing mentioned regarding passengers so I guess would act normally.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


A problem? No, not really. But 'still solid', the words you used to describe it, doesn't a imply huge incredible nerf. The one guaranteed power you get, the primaris power, has been nerfed a tremendous amount. I don't think most people fully understand how much harder it is going to be to fire off warp charge two powers reliably.

Overexagerate much?

No, not at all. Not. At. All. If you don't think moving a spell from warp charge 1 to 2 in addition to having the new warp dice rules isn't a tremendous nerf to prescience, either you are unaware of the math in 7th (likely) or are 8 years old and haven't taken the class to understand it yet (extremely unlikely).

Do you know the odds? Do you? Compare prescience in 6th with prescience in 7th. Odds of success and odds of perils under each rule system. Walk me through the numbers if you think I am over exaggerating. If instead you have no idea what the odds are then you have nothing to support your claim do you?

Super Newb wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


A problem? No, not really. But 'still solid', the words you used to describe it, doesn't a imply huge incredible nerf. The one guaranteed power you get, the primaris power, has been nerfed a tremendous amount. I don't think most people fully understand how much harder it is going to be to fire off warp charge two powers reliably.

Overexagerate much?

No, not at all. Not. At. All. If you don't think moving a spell from warp charge 1 to 2 in addition to having the new warp dice rules isn't e is a HUGE a tremendous nerf to prescience, either you are unaware of the math in 7th (likely) or are 8 years old and haven't taken the class to understand it yet (extremely unlikely).

Do you know the odds? Do you? Compare prescience in 6th with prescience in 7th. Odds of success and odds of perils under each rule system. Walk me through the numbers if you think I am over exaggerating. If instead you have no idea what the odds are then you have nothing to support your claim do you?

Prescience is a HUGE buff and force-multiplying power. It should most definitely require a difficult test to use.

It is specifically bolded that "all sucsesfull warp charges" have to be blocked so I would say in your example 3 blocks would be needed to stop the power.

Oh right i forgot to ask.

Anything on IC joining other IC besides MC?
(9 Captains joining 1 chapter master alone?)

 RedFox wrote:
So basically there's not a single positive new rule that benefit assault...ouch

Yup.

Well, except that when assaulting walkers if you deal a penetrating hit it counts as TWO wounds when determining who won combat. Not that anyone takes walkers other than knights anyway.

Super Newb wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


A problem? No, not really. But 'still solid', the words you used to describe it, doesn't a imply huge incredible nerf. The one guaranteed power you get, the primaris power, has been nerfed a tremendous amount. I don't think most people fully understand how much harder it is going to be to fire off warp charge two powers reliably.

Overexagerate much?

No, not at all. Not. At. All. If you don't think moving a spell from warp charge 1 to 2 in addition to having the new warp dice rules isn't a tremendous nerf to prescience, either you are unaware of the math in 7th (likely) or are 8 years old and haven't taken the class to understand it yet (extremely unlikely).

Do you know the odds? Do you? Compare prescience in 6th with prescience in 7th. Odds of success and odds of perils under each rule system. Walk me through the numbers if you think I am over exaggerating. If instead you have no idea what the odds are then you have nothing to support your claim do you?

It takes a good 5 dice to cast it reliably now (reliably, as in, near the same reliability that it took in 6th). And, of course, if you roll 2 sixes, you also perils.

So, for example, if you took Coteaz purely to cast prescience on someone, you're only getting 2+d6 dice (excluding other psykers you may or may not add to the army) to cast it with.

That's a pretty big hit to psykers. And this is basically across the board. There will be a lot less spells being flung about.

SeanDrake wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Derp.

That's just the flamer template. Not even blasts, right?

Hellstorm weapons also but not blasts.

Yea that twists a knife into the side of ork and DE which was pretty unecessary.

Doesn't matter. People still amaze me by failing to realize the impact of Telepathy and deamonology. It doesn't matter if you can only get 2-3 powers off a turn consistently when they are stupidly broken in design.

This whole edition will change from Divination spam, to telepathy spam. You seriously only need invisibility on a beast pack or seer council. A council can get a minimum of 16 dice, just throw 15 at invisibility and save one for the ghost helm. Have fun needing ~7 natural 6's to stop it. Now that unit is IMMUNE to blasts and templates and is only hit on 6's for shooting AND HTH! That is actually worse then before. Heck, you can put a seer council in the dais with invisibility now just for laughs

GK's will do the same thing due to psychic pilot and BoP + mystics and just make Imperial Knights Invisible.

I totally forgot about my space wolves, they get 4 rune priests per FOC....

Mark my words mana batteries will be the flavor of the month as soon as this hits. You can't kill what you can't target or hit, Invisibility is such a moronic spell. Had that one power not been printed I'd be much more comfortable. This edition is far from perfect, but closer then it's ever come from what I have read..... Up until they dropped the ball on dispelling blessing. It is basically not ever going to happen on important spells. The next problem is they went and made spells that are WAY to abusive.

Oh well, I guess I'll just continue to focus on campaigns and painting. Competitive play is was always a joke but now it's not even funny.

 tarnish wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


A problem? No, not really. But 'still solid', the words you used to describe it, doesn't a imply huge incredible nerf. The one guaranteed power you get, the primaris power, has been nerfed a tremendous amount. I don't think most people fully understand how much harder it is going to be to fire off warp charge two powers reliably.

Overexagerate much?

You have to understand that most of the powergaming community relied on that power to save them from the dice. Now it´s back to square one and they feel like the game has taken then fun away from them and replaced it with balance. Offcourse they feel cheated and mad, everything is different now. Psykers will demand effort and it will go wrong sometimes. How can you reliably win if things go wrong?

You have to understand that purely based on math and odds, the change to prescience is in fact a tremendous nerf. Your not even passive aggressive attempts to insult people (not me, I'm the furthest from a power gamer you can find lol) does nothing to the actual facts here. Prescience was very very powerful before. Now it is SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful. Calling it a tremendous nerf is extremely reasonable. I think you'd agree if you actually went over the math. But perhaps you'd much rather spend your time implying people you disagree with are mad and upset and don't believe in effort?

 Blacksails wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:


Reference section consists of seven pages of tables.

Dear lord.

I mean, that's just amazing.

What's even more amazing? That they finally put all of the tables in ONE location!!! I was soooo sick and tired of thumbing through the rule book to find a single table and then back through to find another.

jamesk1973 wrote:

 RedFox wrote:
So basically there's not a single positive new rule that benefit assault...ouch

Yup.

Well, except that when assaulting walkers if you deal a penetrating hit it counts as TWO wounds when determining who won combat. Not that anyone takes walkers other than knights anyway.

As has been said table and mission setup has changed enough, that if you can resist the edge to zerg a gun line and instead go for objectives. There will be a much increased chance that assault will be engaged in in the mid field areas.

Is there a reference section in the back like there was in 6th listing all the vehicles hull points for armies that haven't gotten an updated codex yet?

SeanDrake, can bikes assault after they jink? Thanks.

 spartanlegion wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
So...Shadows in the Warp, from a codex just a few months old is now useless?

I'd relax a bit if I were you. Expect a FAQ on release day or shortly thereafter.

I'm in a similar situation with Tzeentch Daemons getting +3 to Ld for Psychic checks. I'm not freaking out ... yet.

It's been 1 year, 1 month and 5 days since the last FAQ.

Faqs, were in fact, abandoned by GW because they were starting to write 7th edition 13 months ago. They basically gave up on 6th (in under a year from its release no less), quietly, knowing what was going down. Our new universal faq is "Roll 1d6. If it is 1-3 you are right & 4-6 your opponent is correct." (BTW, that ain't a joke.)

If that's the case then they really made a complete suckers play with $83 of supplements released in December (almost the cost of the new rule book). If that's the case, then they are bigger scumbags than I thought.

@seandrake - what point are fortifications placed? Before or after terrain setup etc?

MadmanMSU wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
No, not at all. Not. At. All. If you don't think moving a spell from warp charge 1 to 2 in addition to having the new warp dice rules isn't a tremendous nerf to prescience, either you are unaware of the math in 7th (likely) or are 8 years old and haven't taken the class to understand it yet (extremely unlikely).

Do you know the odds? Do you? Compare prescience in 6th with prescience in 7th. Odds of success and odds of perils under each rule system. Walk me through the numbers if you think I am over exaggerating. If instead you have no idea what the odds are then you have nothing to support your claim do you?

It takes a good 5 dice to cast it reliably now (reliably, as in, near the same reliability that it took in 6th). And, of course, if you roll 2 sixes, you also perils.

So, for example, if you took Coteaz purely to cast prescience on someone, you're only getting 2+d6 dice (excluding other psykers you may or may not add to the army) to cast it with.

That's a pretty big hit to psykers. And this is basically across the board. There will be a lot less spells being flung about.

Some sense! Thank you. Yes, 5 dice is almost but not quite getting you to the same success rate. But that also has a 20% perils rate! Also, the enemy can deny the witch on your blessing! And hey, if your 6th edition army had three psykers each casting prescience easily, by easy I mean like 80-90% success rate, to try to do that now you'd need 15-18 warp charge dice, you'd peril a lot more often and even after your limited successes some would be dispelled. That is if you could even get to 18 warp charge dice in the first place. That's a tremendous difference.

Super Newb wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


A problem? No, not really. But 'still solid', the words you used to describe it, doesn't a imply huge incredible nerf. The one guaranteed power you get, the primaris power, has been nerfed a tremendous amount. I don't think most people fully understand how much harder it is going to be to fire off warp charge two powers reliably.

Overexagerate much?

No, not at all. Not. At. All. If you don't think moving a spell from warp charge 1 to 2 in addition to having the new warp dice rules isn't a tremendous nerf to prescience, either you are unaware of the math in 7th (likely) or are 8 years old and haven't taken the class to understand it yet (extremely unlikely).

Do you know the odds? Do you? Compare prescience in 6th with prescience in 7th. Odds of success and odds of perils under each rule system. Walk me through the numbers if you think I am over exaggerating. If instead you have no idea what the odds are then you have nothing to support your claim do you?

Ive seen the charts, an ability that powerful should be that hard to cast, I dont see the problem, and yes, the rest of the tree is still solid, nothing you've said has debunked the fact that there are still strong powers other than Prescience worth taking on the Divination table.

Not sure why you're only hung up on just Prescience? It needed a nerf, it got a nerf. Unless you just like picking random fights over opinions.

Until 7th, psychic powers were almost risk-free to cast with LD 10 running around all over the place.

Who would have expected a nerf to free buffs? Weird.

And yes, I really can't feel any sympathy for people angry about psykers being nerfed when at the same time, some armies don't even have access to any psykers.

What do assault grenades do for charging now? Do they still ignore the initiative penalty like. Move through Cover?

Krak grenades were nerfed, right?

 Blacksails wrote:

Wilson wrote:

It's a dice game.... expect lots of dice?

If you're after less dice rolling, I hear in monopoly you only have to roll two dice per player turn. OR better yet!!!

checkers! all you have to do is move!

sounds great for you.

Entirely missing the point.

There's a way to have a dice rolling game use a sensible amount of dice. Rolling absolutely everything on a random D3 or D6 or a table takes away from the players actions. That, and having to roll everything slows the game down, instead of just "2" rather than "D3".

But just so you understand, look at the old way, and look at the new way. Both involve rolling dice. Both will have roughly the same outcome. One is simpler, more efficient, easier to track, and easier to resolve; the other is a bloated mess.

-in your opinion, which is very much fair enough.

i will however happily play these new rules and still find it a good laugh.

I like the random side of things, means anyone has a chance of winning+ who knows what will happen element.

pros and cons.