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So the wife and I are considering starting a fourth army, mainly with her playing it. I've read the Adepticon top seed lists, but didnt see too much screamer usages. We're still relatively new and unfamiliar with demons, so for those of you who are knowledgeable can you please offer your most cut throat tournament lists?
Unlike our other armies we want to avoid buying fluff units and just buy the list outright.
Well, if you are going for a tourmanent list. There are really 2 options that will win you the most games. Although I must say that I am not a big fan of those 2 lists since they aren't really fun to play with in my opinion.
The first list you could go for is a Flying Circus. This list focusses on Flying Monstrous Creatures spamming Psykers abbilities. If you go for this lost you are probably wanting to take Fate Weaver. And use his unique effect to take 2 or even 3 Daemon Princes of Tzeentch, and give them all ML 3, with warp forged armour and ofcourse, daemonic flight (wouldn't be a flying montrous creature spam list then).
The troops aren't really important since you're gonna go for tabling anyway, so keep that at a minium with 2 times 10 pink horrors.
The second option is the Screamer Star. This list is focussed on taking 9 Screamers, and a Herald of Tzeentch on a Disc, with ML 3 and the Grimoire of True Names (it gives 1 unit a 2+ on their invuln saves so in this case a 3+)
So bascially, you do the same troops (2x 10 horrors) and just spam screamers with a Herald on a Disc and ML 3 each. Then you roll on Divination, and hope that your roll the 4+ invuln save one (yes indeed with a 2+ from the Grimoire this gives the screamer a 2+ invuln save, of which you get to reroll rolls of 1 once because it's a passive from being a Daemon of Tzeentch.
These two lists are the two most table lists and will almost surely bring you victory. I must also warn you though, do not expect any fun with these lists because you will not have much fun playing with them. If you want to have some more fun, you should tell us what kind of list you want (what chaos god, what unit type your prefer, strategy etc.)
I hope this helped
Outsmart what you can't beat, and beat what you can't outsmart.
These two lists are the two most table lists and will almost surely bring you victory. I must also warn you though, do not expect any fun with these lists because you will not have much fun playing with them. If you want to have some more fun, you should tell us what kind of list you want (what chaos god, what unit type your prefer, strategy etc.)
I hope this helped
Not sure I agree with that last part. The flying circus is one of the hardest meta-builds to play correctly and win with, and fun is relative so maybe she will like it. That being said I'm not a huge fan of the Flying Circus. The list i've been running is a hybrid ScreamerStar/Hound Rush approach and I have a lot of fun playing it. If she mostly plays you then I don't really see a need for her to get a meta-bashing list. There are some strong builds in the Daemon Codex, just not as absurd as pure ScreamerStar or Flying Circus.
Basically here's some units you can't go wrong with:
HQ Fateweaver (kinda mandatory but whatever) Lord of Change (given the right buffs can be an absolute monster. kinda forces you to play Flying circus by the time you get him and Fatey in a list though) Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut (killyness of a DP for 1/2 the points, put him in a big unit of hounds and go wreck things) Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (only really works well in a Screamer Star or Screamer Star Lite, but they can throw down some S6 like nobody's biz)
Troops: Anything but bloodletters serve a purpose here
Fast: Flesh Hounds (escorts for your Kh'erald and excellent at applying early game pressure. Scout + beast FTW) Screamers (obviously can be used in ScreamerStar, but make good harrassment units in their own right) Seekers (they're cool and can do work if they get the charge off, but I prefer hounds)
Heavy: Daemon Prince (one carries the grimoire, one carries the portalglyph. Basically they're there to make a LoC more awesome) Soul Grinders ( I don't have a whole lot of experience with these guys but they look good on paper. Good general support)
EDIT: No, I didn't forget the Elites slot. There's just nothing there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and if you are going to go the Flying Circus approach (it did win Adepticon woohoo!) a heldrake and it's associated tax are mandatory. And a bastion never hurt an army that can get the absolute sh*t alpha striked out of it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/29 00:14:55
Not sure I agree with that last part. The flying circus is one of the hardest meta-builds to play correctly and win with, and fun is relative so maybe she will like it. That being said I'm not a huge fan of the Flying Circus. The list i've been running is a hybrid ScreamerStar/Hound Rush approach and I have a lot of fun playing it. If she mostly plays you then I don't really see a need for her to get a meta-bashing list. There are some strong builds in the Daemon Codex, just not as absurd as pure ScreamerStar or Flying Circus.
Basically here's some units you can't go wrong with:
HQ Fateweaver (kinda mandatory but whatever)
Lord of Change (given the right buffs can be an absolute monster. kinda forces you to play Flying circus by the time you get him and Fatey in a list though)
Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut (killyness of a DP for 1/2 the points, put him in a big unit of hounds and go wreck things)
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (only really works well in a Screamer Star or Screamer Star Lite, but they can throw down some S6 like nobody's biz)
Troops:
Anything but bloodletters serve a purpose here
Fast:
Flesh Hounds (escorts for your Kh'erald and excellent at applying early game pressure. Scout + beast FTW)
Screamers (obviously can be used in ScreamerStar, but make good harrassment units in their own right)
Seekers (they're cool and can do work if they get the charge off, but I prefer hounds)
Heavy:
Daemon Prince (one carries the grimoire, one carries the portalglyph. Basically they're there to make a LoC more awesome)
Soul Grinders ( I don't have a whole lot of experience with these guys but they look good on paper. Good general support)
EDIT: No, I didn't forget the Elites slot. There's just nothing there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and if you are going to go the Flying Circus approach (it did win Adepticon woohoo!) a heldrake and it's associated tax are mandatory. And a bastion never hurt an army that can get the absolute sh*t alpha striked out of it.
I second this post (though not the mandatory heldrake, it is a competitive choice, but not vital to the list). Though I personally prefer flying circus over screamer star. (It's easier to remember who has what powers when they don't all look the same and are sitting in the middle of the same squad).
If you are going for a themed list that still wants to win games, then you have a few options:
Flying Circus - lots of FMC, lots of random table roll and psychic powers to remember, so can be a chore to play sometimes. Be'lakor with CSM allies are often seen along these.
Screamerstar - Cheesy 2++ blob that rivals the seerstar. Random power dependent, yet terrible to play against when they get hat they need.
Dogpile / Dogrush - Spam lots of flesh hounds. Simple and sometimes very effective depending on lineup.
Slaanesh theme - Slaanesh lists can arguably be said to be the 2nd most competitive god, after tzeentch. Expect KoS and lash DPs, and lots of fast infantry.
Plaguedronestar - An interesting Nurgle build centering around Epidimus, plague drones and 3 soul grinders.
These are the most popular and successful daemon builds around. With Flying circus and screamer star being the most popular.
As far as purchases go, get fateweaver first. Almost every list uses him.
For troops I'd go for Horrors, or maybe daemonettes. Though as astro said there are uses for all of them, except bloodlettes, depending on what you want to do with them.
From here it really depends on what kind of army you want to make.
Personally my favourite units for CD are the LoC, and soul grinders.
Daemon Prince Daemonic Flight 40 Warp-Forged Armour 20 Exalted Reward 30(Grimoire of True Names) Greater Reward 20(Lash of Despair) Daemon of Slaanesh 10 ML3 75 = 340
Daemon Prince Daemonic Flight 40 Warp-Forged Armour 20 Greater Reward(2) 40(Lash of Despair) Daemon of Slaanesh 10 ML3 75 = 330
Daemon Prince Daemonic Flight 40 Warp-Forged Armour 20 Greater Reward(2) 40(Lash of Despair) Daemon of Slaanesh 10 ML3 75 = 330
...hopefully this gives you a template for an 1850 list. If I run my other variation of the Flying Circus(with CSM allies), I prefer Tzeentch DPs.
This is the best all comers set up, I feel. The lash DPs are amazing at wrecking flyers, which is normally a hard counter to Daemons. If you roll right and get the right psychic power(Iron Arm), you could end up with 12 S9 rending shots/DP + vector strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 05:26:39
...that big sanction stamp of APPROVAL means it's OFFICIAL. No, I don't have to ask you for permission. D-cannons win games.
The lash is not rending btw. This is a common misconception. Still good at anti air though.
very true. Sorry, I don't know why I even put that in there. I certainly haven't been playing it with rending lol. It has been doing it's job regardless . Must have been my wish-listing thought train I had left, from when I first made the list!
...that big sanction stamp of APPROVAL means it's OFFICIAL. No, I don't have to ask you for permission. D-cannons win games.
It totally depends how you want to play and how many points you have to spend.
Most people agree that DPs are not worth it until you invest heavily into them to get a good chance at psychic powers. This will cost 340+ points depending on options.
Once you do invest in them however then can be absolute game changers, provided you know what you are doing, as without iron arm they are nowhere as durable as their points would suggest.
Soul grinders on the other hand offer a cheaper alternative and some tactical versatility. They are great either as slaanesh torrent flamers or nurgle phlegm cannons.
They have immunity to str 6 weapons and below, which other units in the book don't, and can also effectively deal with things like grey knights in cover, where your other deamons would struggle (or get instant death'd by force weapns).
Don't rely on them for anti air though, consider that just icing on the cake. I have killed storm talons with them before, but 170ish points for an average of 1.5 str 7 hits on target is pretty poor. Works ok at grounding FMC though.
As tough as they are, they are still vehicles in an edition that favours monstrous creatures.
In higher points games most people will tell you that DPs are better, though soul grinders still have uses. It of course depends on what your list is centred around and what you are going against.
Troops aren't too difficult to get the hold of:
Plagues sit on objectives in cover, the don't tend to do anything the whole game.
Horrors act similarly, but exchange a little bit of survivability for more versatility with regards to running, going to ground and shooting.
Daemonettes are the best at crossing distances the fastest, and getting into cover after deepstriking. They are the most offensive choice in terms of melee damage output, and are a decent threat to monstrous creatures.
Bloodletters look pretty sitting on your shelf.
The one big problem with that list is the screamers and the herald. A screamer star really needs to be getting 3 o 4 heralds in the squad, to give it its firepower, and also ensure it gets forewarning.
If not working as a deathstar, then a herlad doesn't bring all that much to a unit of screamers.
Try and get 2 exalted gifts if you can, then you can get the portalglyph to boost your scoring units during the game.
Daemon Prince Daemonic Flight 40 Warp-Forged Armour 20 Exalted Reward 30(Grimoire of True Names) Greater Reward 20(Lash of Despair) Daemon of Slaanesh 10 ML3 75 = 340
Daemon Prince Daemonic Flight 40 Warp-Forged Armour 20 Greater Reward(2) 40(Lash of Despair) Daemon of Slaanesh 10 ML3 75 = 330
Daemon Prince Daemonic Flight 40 Warp-Forged Armour 20 Greater Reward(2) 40(Lash of Despair) Daemon of Slaanesh 10 ML3 75 = 330
...hopefully this gives you a template for an 1850 list. If I run my other variation of the Flying Circus(with CSM allies), I prefer Tzeentch DPs.
This is the best all comers set up, I feel. The lash DPs are amazing at wrecking flyers, which is normally a hard counter to Daemons. If you roll right and get the right psychic power(Iron Arm), you could end up with 12 S9 rending shots/DP + vector strike.
What do you do with the KoS? deep strike him for the lulz?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iechine wrote: So I'm slowly wading through the info, can I please get some feedback on this starter list, its about 1830 ATM.
I would say if you go hounds, spring for at least 15. 10 are going to get taken off the board too quickly to have a meanigful impact. 15 on the other hand, and your opponent won't get to shoot much of anything else first turn unless he wants to cough up a unit to them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 22:10:56
the KoS starts on the table and basically just runs the back/midfield. He's mostly there so I can take DPs of Slaanesh(tax). If he gets Invisibility though, he can be quite offensive and good support to the Daemonettes.
...that big sanction stamp of APPROVAL means it's OFFICIAL. No, I don't have to ask you for permission. D-cannons win games.
Do you find that he just gets shot off the table often? I feel like against the opponents I play most (Tau/Tau, Eldar) they would just blast him given the slightest opportunity. He also wouldn't see much action against the Tau who are castled up/ rarely leave their own deployment zone.
astro_nomicon wrote: Do you find that he just gets shot off the table often? I feel like against the opponents I play most (Tau/Tau, Eldar) they would just blast him given the slightest opportunity. He also wouldn't see much action against the Tau who are castled up/ rarely leave their own deployment zone.
he can go down very quickly. The only time he really comes out of hiding and ventures out further is if he has Invisibility on him or all the threats are tied up/taken out. I wish I didn't have to bring him, and if we're talking purely competitive, I favour my Tzeentch/CSM Flying Circus list over this one because of that.
...that big sanction stamp of APPROVAL means it's OFFICIAL. No, I don't have to ask you for permission. D-cannons win games.
Iechine wrote: Very helpful replies to everyone, thanks! Is the Soul Grinder worth taking over a DP, ever? It has Skyfire and seems sturdy enough.
The troops selection I'm a little confused by, mainly because I need to reread the codex to truly see which one works best.
Yes, it definitely is.
I'm mainly running 2 daemon builds now and both with quite some success. I'm trying to avoid the popular competitive daemon builds like FMC-spam, screamerstar, etc. Instead, I run 1) Herald-hammer Daemons and 2) Be'lakor + Soulgrinders.
2000 Herald-Hammer Daemons
Fateweaver
Herald - Khorne, Juggernaut, Locus of Fury, Lesser Gift (Axe of Khorne)
Herald - Slaanesh, Steed, Lvl 2 Psyker, Locus of Grace, Greater Gift (Greater Etherblade)
Herald - Tzeentch, Disc, Lvl 3 Psyker, Locus of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
Herald - Tzeentch, Disc, Lvl 3 Psyker, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph)
Iechine wrote: Very helpful replies to everyone, thanks! Is the Soul Grinder worth taking over a DP, ever? It has Skyfire and seems sturdy enough.
The troops selection I'm a little confused by, mainly because I need to reread the codex to truly see which one works best.
Yes, it definitely is.
I'm mainly running 2 daemon builds now and both with quite some success. I'm trying to avoid the popular competitive daemon builds like FMC-spam, screamerstar, etc. Instead, I run 1) Herald-hammer Daemons and 2) Be'lakor + Soulgrinders.
2000 Herald-Hammer Daemons
Fateweaver
Herald - Khorne, Juggernaut, Locus of Fury, Lesser Gift (Axe of Khorne)
Herald - Slaanesh, Steed, Lvl 2 Psyker, Locus of Grace, Greater Gift (Greater Etherblade)
Herald - Tzeentch, Disc, Lvl 3 Psyker, Locus of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
Herald - Tzeentch, Disc, Lvl 3 Psyker, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph)
I've been running an 1850 very similar to (and, yes, inspired by battle reports of ) your Herald Hammer daemons. Slightly more Screamer-centric with more hounds instead of seekers. It goes like this:
Fateweaver
Herald of Khorne - Juggernaut, Lesser, Greater, Locus of Fury
Herald of Tzeentch - ML3, Exalted, Disc, Locus of Conjuration
Herald of Tzeentch - ML3, Exalted, Disc
Herald of Tzeentch - ML3, Disc
What do you find the Seekers bring over the hounds? I haven't tried them yet (mostly due to not having the models), but T3 and 1W, just seem to be asking to be removed by the hand full. I know there are other threats on the board, but I'm of the mind you can achieve the same thing with MOAR DOGES RAWR I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter though. After playing a few games with this list, I do think I need to shuffle some points to get another Screamer.
I've been running an 1850 very similar to (and, yes, inspired by battle reports of ) your Herald Hammer daemons. Slightly more Screamer-centric with more hounds instead of seekers. It goes like this:
Fateweaver
Herald of Khorne - Juggernaut, Lesser, Greater, Locus of Fury
Herald of Tzeentch - ML3, Exalted, Disc, Locus of Conjuration
Herald of Tzeentch - ML3, Exalted, Disc
Herald of Tzeentch - ML3, Disc
What do you find the Seekers bring over the hounds? I haven't tried them yet (mostly due to not having the models), but T3 and 1W, just seem to be asking to be removed by the hand full. I know there are other threats on the board, but I'm of the mind you can achieve the same thing with MOAR DOGES RAWR I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter though. After playing a few games with this list, I do think I need to shuffle some points to get another Screamer.
Hounds are the anvil unit. Seekers are the hammer. Hounds will have trouble against high Toughness 2+ MC's like riptides, wraithknights, dreadknights, etc. That's where the seekers come in. They will kill off units like those. Seekers also tend to do better against deathstar builds due to their rending.
But mainly, this was supposed to be my no-spam list (other than the troops). I wanted a variety in playstyle by trying to utilize other units instead of running the same units.
I can see that. I thought about bringing another Khorne Herald instead of Tzeentch herald for that reason. He's never had a hard time disposing of riptides, haven't gone up against a wraithknight with them yet. My only problem with that is that Tau and Eldar can pretty reliably remove ~16 hounds if I'm not going first, meaning one of the Khorne Heralds is probably going to die before he gets to do anything.
Of all the lists, this one seems the most fun and less complicated to start with, so I may go down this route. The more I've read the codex, the more I've realized this would be a fun army to play at home with the wife...she's mentioned she wanted to try
Tyranids for a while so this works out perfect.
I'm going to keep playing around with the lists so maybe I can just buy the whole thing in June.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Just be aware that 7 edition could render all this list illegal (maybe)
7th could render the daemons codex illegal?? All the lists posted in this thread have been single FOC, no allies from C:CD. I don't understand.
He means the foc will change to fantasy style which would render certain lists illegal
"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War
"If your not winning, try a bigger sword! Usually works..."
Some Tomb World in some galaxy by that one thing in that one place (or Minnesota for nosy people)
znelson wrote: Daemons can be great, but they aren't very durable and there's little margin for error... does anyone use CSM unit to back up their demons?
Any advice on what direction to go if I want models with an armor save is appreciated.
There's a rather decent margin for error with daemons and they are pretty durable compared to most things for their points, try playing them more and you will see.
"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War
"If your not winning, try a bigger sword! Usually works..."
znelson wrote: Daemons can be great, but they aren't very durable and there's little margin for error... does anyone use CSM unit to back up their demons?
Any advice on what direction to go if I want models with an armor save is appreciated.
There's a rather decent margin for error with daemons and they are pretty durable compared to most things for their points, try playing them more and you will see.
I suppose what I should have said was, "All the scoring units in codex daemons are made of paper mache, what should I do?"
And is there consensus on this forum regarding if/what units to deep strike? (it's a common discussion at my gaming group)
Froth at the top, dregs at the bottom, but the middle - excellent
znelson wrote: Daemons can be great, but they aren't very durable and there's little margin for error... does anyone use CSM unit to back up their demons?
Any advice on what direction to go if I want models with an armor save is appreciated.
There's a rather decent margin for error with daemons and they are pretty durable compared to most things for their points, try playing them more and you will see.
I suppose what I should have said was, "All the scoring units in codex daemons are made of paper mache, what should I do?"
And is there consensus on this forum regarding if/what units to deep strike? (it's a common discussion at my gaming group)
Regarding troops - they are actually pretty durable if you are using them in the right places. Get horrors to go to ground in area terrain or, even better, behind a fortification or aegis, and enjoy your 9 point terminators. (Actually much more durable than terminators if you can get them that 2+ cover save).
The same thing can be said for plaguebearers, who comparatively get a better save in worse terrain, but no re-rolls.
The only thing Daemon troops have to worry about is getting into terrain, and then ignores cover stuff. Daemonettes aren't great at standing in terrain like the other two, so use their speed to keep them hidden until you need to hold or contest.
CSM really doesn't provide anything which is scoring and more durable than daemons already owns.
As far as deep striking. Most of the time it is your troop choices, as you need them for objectives at the end, and they are the least durable. The only time it isn't is when you need to keep your FMCs alive in the opponents first turn. Many daemon players bring some kind of fortification to provide LoS blocking to their flying creatures of the first turn, however some lists can deal with this. Think drop pod lists or armies who can alpha you out of LoS. If they stand a good chance at taking out fatey or a prince before they get their buffs up and start flying, then keep them in reserve. Tau armies with a lot of smart missile systems an pose a threat to fateweaver and DPs as well, though their range is limited.
2000+
2000+ 
. Must have been my wish-listing thought train I had left, from when I first made the list!
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
) your Herald Hammer daemons. Slightly more Screamer-centric with more hounds instead of seekers. It goes like this:
I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter though. After playing a few games with this list, I do think I need to shuffle some points to get another Screamer.
"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War 
2k
