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You cast hammerhand once. RAW you may not use p.2 to modify a stat as it is neither wargear nor a special rule.

rules on p.2 refers RAI most likely refers to special rules as its a continuation of modifiers which spells out wargear and special rules.

blaktoof wrote:
My argument is based solely on RAW, and like many people does not reflect how people actually play the game.

the rules on p.2 apply to any rule which is allowed to cumulative modify.

the rules on p.2 for adding a modifier are stated as pertaining to Wargear and special rules.

is hammerhand wargear or special rules? no.

Actually, Hammerhand does contain rules that bend or break the main rules in the BRB, specifically the ability to be added before multiplication, being used in the Assault phase, as well as the ability to change a unit's Strength characteristic by 1 for the duration of that round of combat. As such, Hammerhand does fall under the Special Rules restrictions on not being cumulative without specific permission, something Hammerhand lacks. Also, as a Psychic Power, Hammerhand falls under the general restriction on all Psychic Powers found at the top of pg.68 of the BRB, restricting cumulative modifiers to different powers. As Might of Titan (pg. 25, GK codex) does contain wording informing us that its +1 to Strength is cumulative with Hammerhand, yet Hammerhand lacks wording informing us of any intent for Hammerhand's modifier to be cumulative with itself, the +1 Strength bonus from Hammerhand only has permission to be applied once regardless of the number of castings.

Other than that point, I support your argument.

SJ

blaktoof wrote:

You cast hammerhand once. RAW you may not use p.2 to modify a stat as it is neither wargear nor a special rule.

rules on p.2 refers RAI most likely refers to special rules as its a continuation of modifiers which spells out rules and special rules.

So you're making up the word "special" on the quote? Or is page two not talking about a combination of rules?

You're not discussing rules, given you're making up words, making up concepts such as + not being cumulative - by definition it IS - , and stating we cannot use real world maths definitions of + as 40k doesn't use real world maths, despite this not being at all correct.

blaktoof wrote:
but a single one is not, and under the section for modifiers it states "special rules or wargear" is hammerhand either of those?

Does page 2 state that only special rules and wargear can modify characteristics?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
My argument is based solely on RAW, and like many people does not reflect how people actually play the game.

the rules on p.2 apply to any rule which is allowed to cumulative modify.

the rules on p.2 for adding a modifier are stated as pertaining to Wargear and special rules.

is hammerhand wargear or special rules? no.

Actually, Hammerhand does contain rules that bend or break the main rules in the BRB, specifically the ability to be added before multiplication, being used in the Assault phase, as well as the ability to change a unit's Strength characteristic by 1 for the duration of that round of combat. As such, Hammerhand does fall under the Special Rules restrictions on not being cumulative without specific permission, something Hammerhand lacks. Also, as a Psychic Power, Hammerhand falls under the general restriction on all Psychic Powers found at the top of pg.68 of the BRB, restricting cumulative modifiers to different powers. As Might of Titan (pg. 25, GK codex) does contain wording informing us that its +1 to Strength is cumulative with Hammerhand, yet Hammerhand lacks wording informing us of any intent for Hammerhand's modifier to be cumulative with itself, the +1 Strength bonus from Hammerhand only has permission to be applied once regardless of the number of castings.

Other than that point, I support your argument.

SJ

Not dealing with all of the mistakes here, but just pointing out - you cannot state fhat permission (functionally redundant, but still permission) to do X is a restriction on doing Y. That is another logical fallacy

@jeffersonian000:

Thats not breaking or bending any rule; its called an exception. An exception is "permission" given to ignore a standing policy or rule, as if there is no complication.

What we have here is complication manifested on how people from different countries understand something based upon this very interesting take on english.

I do need help with something though... where in the BRB does it say that the BRB and codices are permissive styled rules?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
but a single one is not, and under the section for modifiers it states "special rules or wargear" is hammerhand either of those?

Does page 2 state that only special rules and wargear can modify characteristics?

Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's
characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+ I , +2,
etc.), multiplying it (x2, x3, etc.) or even setting its value (1,8,
etc.).

Nope, does it need to?

It spells out what can modify stats using those rules, perhaps they are being redundant and really mean "anything that modifies a models characteristics" they however do not say this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
My argument is based solely on RAW, and like many people does not reflect how people actually play the game.

the rules on p.2 apply to any rule which is allowed to cumulative modify.

the rules on p.2 for adding a modifier are stated as pertaining to Wargear and special rules.

is hammerhand wargear or special rules? no.

Actually, Hammerhand does contain rules that bend or break the main rules in the BRB, specifically the ability to be added before multiplication, being used in the Assault phase, as well as the ability to change a unit's Strength characteristic by 1 for the duration of that round of combat. As such, Hammerhand does fall under the Special Rules restrictions on not being cumulative without specific permission, something Hammerhand lacks. Also, as a Psychic Power, Hammerhand falls under the general restriction on all Psychic Powers found at the top of pg.68 of the BRB, restricting cumulative modifiers to different powers. As Might of Titan (pg. 25, GK codex) does contain wording informing us that its +1 to Strength is cumulative with Hammerhand, yet Hammerhand lacks wording informing us of any intent for Hammerhand's modifier to be cumulative with itself, the +1 Strength bonus from Hammerhand only has permission to be applied once regardless of the number of castings.

Other than that point, I support your argument.

SJ

Not dealing with all of the mistakes here, but just pointing out - you cannot state fhat permission (functionally redundant, but still permission) to do X is a restriction on doing Y. That is another logical fallacy

I do not disagree with you, however from a RAW stand point the rules as written show that a modifier can modify a stat if it comes from wargear or a special rule, on p.2

On multiple modifiers it says any combination of rules or wargear.

So either multiple modifiers RAI should be special rules and not just rules, or they intended for any rules to be cumulative but only wargear and special rules can modify a stat, or they intended for anything that says modify to modify but RAW they did write "special rules and wargear may modify a characteristics" therefore RAW those are the things given permission.

I agree that it is not logical to say that "these things may modify a stat" but "you can combine these things+ anything else to apply multiple modifiers" but it is what is written in the rules RAW, not what I have made up.

Yes, if you're claim is that the rules on page 2 deny permission to apply the strength modifier of Hammerhand because only wargear and special rules can, then you do in fact need rules to back that up.

DO I?

I don't see permission to apply the modifier anywhere on p.2 can you back that up?

Resolve psychc power, page 68 - "... you can now resolve the psychic power according to instructions in its entry."

The entry for Hammerhand - "If the Psychic test is passed, all models in the unit )including independent characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the Assault phase."

Permission is granted.

that is not permission granted.

you have to look at p.2 to tell you how to apply characteristic modifiers.

How is "the unit gains +1 strength" not permission to gain +1 strength?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How is "the unit gains +1 strength" not permission to gain +1 strength?

here is an example.

I decide to cast a PSA at a unit.

I expend warp charge

I declare a target

I take psychic test

Deny the witch is failed

Resolve psychic power-

The unit I declared is in Line of Sight but outside of the PSA range, being in range is not a requirement for declare target for psychic powers.

Obviously i cannot resolve the power even though I made it to the resolve step as the unit is not in range, because permission for resolution doesnt come solely from making it to the resolve step.

blaktoof wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How is "the unit gains +1 strength" not permission to gain +1 strength?

here is an example.

I decide to cast a PSA at a unit.

I expend warp charge

I declare a target

I take psychic test

Deny the witch is failed

Resolve psychic power-

The unit I declared is in Line of Sight but outside of the PSA range, being in range is not a requirement for declare target for psychic powers.

Obviously i cannot resolve the power even though I made it to the resolve step as the unit is not in range, because permission for resolution doesnt come solely from making it to the resolve step.

Actually you can not cast a PSA on a unit out of range as you can not shoot them. you have to pick a different target. So the power resolves just fine.

"At least one weapon must be in range of the target unit. If no weapons are in range, then a different target must be chosen" (12)

"Any model that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit doesn't shoot" (12)

blaktoof wrote:
You cast hammerhand once. RAW you may not use p.2 to modify a stat as it is neither wargear nor a special rule.

A special rule is a rule.

RAW, you MUST follow what's written on p.2.

 DeathReaper wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How is "the unit gains +1 strength" not permission to gain +1 strength?

here is an example.

I decide to cast a PSA at a unit.

I expend warp charge

I declare a target

I take psychic test

Deny the witch is failed

Resolve psychic power-

The unit I declared is in Line of Sight but outside of the PSA range, being in range is not a requirement for declare target for psychic powers.

Obviously i cannot resolve the power even though I made it to the resolve step as the unit is not in range, because permission for resolution doesnt come solely from making it to the resolve step.

Actually you can not cast a PSA on a unit out of range as you can not shoot them. you have to pick a different target. So the power resolves just fine.

"At least one weapon must be in range of the target unit. If no weapons are in range, then a different target must be chosen" (12)

"Any model that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit doesn't shoot" (12)

I agree with you that you cannot cast a psychic power on a unit that is not in range, however you can go through all of the steps in the process of casting a psychic power and end up at resolve the power on a target that is in line of sight but outside of range. therefore obviously making it to the "resolve psychic" power step does not automatically make the power have an affect on a unit, and you must consider the implications of the other rules contained within the BRB.

the point therin is that that rules for resolving psychic powers do not equal permission for the psychic power to have an effect without the inclusion of other rules within the book.

blaktoof, jeffersonian000, et al.

Is +1 Strength a special rule, yes or no?

blaktoof wrote:
I agree with you that you cannot cast a psychic power on a unit that is not in range, however you can go through all of the steps in the process of casting a psychic power and end up at resolve the power on a target that is in line of sight but outside of range. therefore obviously making it to the "resolve psychic" power step does not automatically make the power have an affect on a unit, and you must consider the implications of the other rules contained within the BRB.

the point therin is that that rules for resolving psychic powers do not equal permission for the psychic power to have an effect without the inclusion of other rules within the book.

"not automatically make the power have an affect on a unit" is resolving the power if that unit is out of range...

 Happyjew wrote:
blaktoof, jeffersonian000, et al.

Is +1 Strength a special rule, yes or no?

No, but it is a rule.

yes saying you can resolve the power at the resolve step is wrong because you are out of range, the point is the resolve step does not mean the power will automatically go into effect. you have to look at the other rules in the brb that affect the power, and if they are followed then it may go into effect.

Essentially you can reach the resolve power part of psychic powers and the power may not go into effect because of other rules ( in this case out of range) but you have still fulfilled the requirements towards trying to resolve the power.

And in the case of dual hammerhand's it is a good thing we have rules that govern the exact situation, they are on Page 2 under Multiple Modifiers.

In the case of everything modifying character values actually as it refers to "rules" and "rules" means everything in 40k - whether weapon, psychic power, special ability (and obviously special rules too) or anything, it's all "rules".

Prey tell how are the rules of a special rule not considered special rules? Powers are some of the rules of the psyker usr and are some how being considered standard rules. This perplexes me. Multiple modifiiers is not permission it is a tool of resolution if permission exists, please stop claiming it is permission.

 Bausk wrote:
Prey tell how are the rules of a special rule not considered special rules? Powers are some of the rules of the psyker usr and are some how being considered standard rules. This perplexes me. Multiple modifiiers is not permission it is a tool of resolution if permission exists, please stop claiming it is permission.

Bausk, since no one wanted to answer me earlier, is +1 S a special rule? If yes, does it stack with +1 S? If not, how do you know?

It in itself is not but what grants it may (furious charge etc) or may not be (power axe).

 Bausk wrote:
Prey tell how are the rules of a special rule not considered special rules? Powers are some of the rules of the psyker usr and are some how being considered standard rules. This perplexes me.

Are they listed as Special rules? I do not see psychic powers in the Special Rules section. It should not perplex you as there is nothing saying that Psychic powers, or the resulting Bonuses/penalties to stats are special rules. Therefore they are not.

Multiple modifiiers is not permission it is a tool of resolution if permission exists, please stop claiming it is permission.

It actually is permission to apply multiple modifiers cumulatively.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Prey tell how are the rules of a special rule not considered special rules? Powers are some of the rules of the psyker usr and are some how being considered standard rules. This perplexes me.

Are they listed as Special rules? I do not see psychic powers in the Special Rules section. It should not perplex you as there is nothing saying that Psychic powers, or the resulting Bonuses/penalties to stats are special rules. Therefore they are not.

Psyker is a Special rule listed in the BRB on pg. 41, which tells us the rules for a Psykers start on pg. 66.

Multiple modifiiers is not permission it is a tool of resolution if permission exists, please stop claiming it is permission.

It actually is permission to apply multiple modifiers cumulatively.

Please quote a passage on pg. 2 that mentions modifiers being cumulative.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Prey tell how are the rules of a special rule not considered special rules? Powers are some of the rules of the psyker usr and are some how being considered standard rules. This perplexes me.

Are they listed as Special rules? I do not see psychic powers in the Special Rules section. It should not perplex you as there is nothing saying that Psychic powers, or the resulting Bonuses/penalties to stats are special rules. Therefore they are not.

Psyker is a Special rule listed in the BRB on pg. 41, which tells us the rules for a Psykers start on pg. 66.

I said Psychic Powers. Not the Psyker Special Rule...

Please quote a passage on pg. 2 that mentions modifiers being cumulative.SJ

We have, but Ill post it again.

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

Hammerhand is a rule that modifies a characteristic (Gives +1 Str).

Therefore the base Str is 4, we apply any multipliers (No multipliers for dual castings of hammerhand) then we apply any additions or subtractions (We apply additions, so we apply +1 and +1 as they are both additions), then finally apply any set values (there are no set values for dual hammerhand castings)

So 4 (No multipliers) +1, +1 (no set Values) =6

"Apply additions" tells us to use math

ergo 4+1 = 5
4+1+1 =6

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Prey tell how are the rules of a special rule not considered special rules? Powers are some of the rules of the psyker usr and are some how being considered standard rules. This perplexes me.

Are they listed as Special rules? I do not see psychic powers in the Special Rules section. It should not perplex you as there is nothing saying that Psychic powers, or the resulting Bonuses/penalties to stats are special rules. Therefore they are not.

Psyker is a Special rule listed in the BRB on pg. 41, which tells us the rules for a Psykers start on pg. 66.

I said Psychic Powers. Not the Psyker Special Rule...

Ah but you see everything related to a special rule is also a special rule. You know, like The Scuttling Swarm making Tervigons troops choices? Tervigons are special rules.

DeathReaper, you failed to quote any mention of modifiers being cumulative, all you quoted was order of operations. Can you quote a single example where more than one of the same modifier are combined per the rules on pg. 2?

SJ

I'm sorry, but are you suggesting a unit that has had Hammerhand resolved on it twice does not have "a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic" and thus may not "apply any additions or subtractions"?