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Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

 Sigvatr wrote:
...and what about the points stated there? Oo

You stated that Psychic Powers are not Special Rules, and further stated you supported this opinion in detail with supporting rule.

I posted a detailed argument showing Psychic Powers fall under Special rules, fully supported by the rules. Having reviewed your "proof", I found that we are in fundamental disagreement. You further posting a simple statement that I am wrong moved me in no way to go through your previous post. As stating "you are wrong" without stating why that person is incorrect goes against the forums tenets, my simply stating that I disagree with you as seen in my previous post was sufficient rather than repost my argument all over again. If you want a point by point break down of where I felt your point goes wrong, re-read the post of mine you claimed is "wrong".

SJ

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/03 15:25:51


“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
This has to be the worst argument for stacking next to claiming page two.

Have you found any rules that say 4+1+1 does not = 6?

We are still waiting, because P.2 clearly says 4+1+1 = 6

As has been quoted and cited and referenced and paraphrased multiple times (and thus are cumulative per the BRB), 4+1+1 only equals 6 if the +1s are from different abilities, such as Hammerhand and Might of Titan.


I read the whole thread, I have not seen any quotes that say "4+1+1 only equals 6 if the +1s are from different abilities" (emphasis mine) the underlined is simply not in the rules.

None of the rules in your post on the previous page restrict two Hammerhands from resolving and applying their effects.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/05/03 15:46:42


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Where exactly does it state that psychic powers are special rules?

Keep in mind that we use a permissive ruleset. RAW, a seemingly logic connection between the USR "Psyker" and psychic powers therefore being special rules isn't enough.

I stated quotes that explicitely tell you what special rules are. In a permissive ruleset, you need to either quote where it says that psychic powers are special rules or drop the point.

   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

 Sigvatr wrote:
Where exactly does it state that psychic powers are special rules?

Keep in mind that we use a permissive ruleset. RAW, a seemingly logic connection between the USR "Psyker" and psychic powers therefore being special rules isn't enough.

I stated quotes that explicitely tell you what special rules are. In a permissive ruleset, you need to either quote where it says that psychic powers are special rules or drop the point.

Pg. 41, upper left corner, under the heading "Psyker". Of course, I and others already cite and quoted that. As to the 4+1+1 does not necessarily equal 6, I cited and quoted those rules, too, back a page on this thread.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

jeffersonian, I have a model. How do I know what special rules the model has?

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
Where exactly does it state that psychic powers are special rules?

Keep in mind that we use a permissive ruleset. RAW, a seemingly logic connection between the USR "Psyker" and psychic powers therefore being special rules isn't enough.

I stated quotes that explicitely tell you what special rules are. In a permissive ruleset, you need to either quote where it says that psychic powers are special rules or drop the point.

Pg. 41, upper left corner, under the heading "Psyker". Of course, I and others already cite and quoted that. As to the 4+1+1 does not necessarily equal 6, I cited and quoted those rules, too, back a page on this thread.

SJ


Again: you have to be precise.

Nowhere does it state that Psychic Powers are special rules. Psyker is a USR because it is explicitely stated in the rulebook. Psychic Powers are never stated as being special rules.

Again: either point out the exact spot where it says that Psychic Powers are special rules or your point is void.

In this case, you are free to silently back off the thread as well, a mere misunderstanding, that can happen to everyone, is no need to become irrational and get overly defensive.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/05/03 22:19:47


   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

 Happyjew wrote:
jeffersonian, I have a model. How do I know what special rules the model has?

The rules for your model will be listed in the model's unit entry.

SJ


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sigvatr wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
Where exactly does it state that psychic powers are special rules?

Keep in mind that we use a permissive ruleset. RAW, a seemingly logic connection between the USR "Psyker" and psychic powers therefore being special rules isn't enough.

I stated quotes that explicitely tell you what special rules are. In a permissive ruleset, you need to either quote where it says that psychic powers are special rules or drop the point.

Pg. 41, upper left corner, under the heading "Psyker". Of course, I and others already cite and quoted that. As to the 4+1+1 does not necessarily equal 6, I cited and quoted those rules, too, back a page on this thread.

SJ


Again: you have to be precise.

Nowhere does it state that Psychic Powers are special rules. Psyker is a USR because it is explicitely stated in the rulebook. Psychic Powers are never stated as being special rules.

Again: either point out the exact spot where it says that Psychic Power are special rules or your point is void.

Incorrect. Warhammer 40,000 6th Edition is not a precise rule set, and precision at the level you are implying does not exist in the current edition of the game. GW does not provide a glossary of key words or terms, they introduce key concepts that might get a reference-able tag line or phrase. In the case of Psychic Powers, we are first given the "main game rules", followed by "special rules", followed by "Universal Special Rules", to which "Psyker" has an entire section of the book dedicated to explaining how that one USR works. So no, there is no precise spot in the BRB that states Psychic Powers are Special Rules. There are, however, 6 pages of rules in a 431 page book detailing how to treat rules that modify how the game play, and Psychic Powes are detailed on all 6 of those pages, which are pages 32, 41, 66, 67, 68, and 69. I have quoted all 6 pages, and have shown how the rules as written cover any game changing effects from weapons to terrain to missions to psychic powers, all of which are cover on page 32, which deals with special rules, to which psychic powers are named as a source.

Please feel free to quote any of this out of context, as I'm sure you will.

SJ

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/03 22:37:34


“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Thanks for your reply / the edit.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
So no, there is no precise spot in the BRB that states Psychic Powers are Special Rules.


This seals the deal. Your entire argumentation revolves around Psychic Powers being special rules. The BRB, however, explicitely and literally lists all special rules - and Psychic Powers are not listed under those. As a consequence, in order to still gain that status and officially be special rules, there would have to be a part in the rules that explicitely calls them special rules - and as both you and me confirmed, this is not the case.

Psychic Powers therefore are not special rules and therefore do not follow anything that refers to special rules. In the case at hand, this means that anything that would make it impossible to be stacked for special rules is void when it comes to discussing Psychic Powers.

I am glad this got settled. One thing to keep in mind for the future: YMDC solely revolves around RAW - literally! Rules as Written. Basing a ruling on the, seemingly, logical conclusion you make is a natural way to solve problems. That is, however, HYWPI, and not what YMDC is for. Whether it makes sense or not, RAW is different from HYWPI in some cases and even rejects normal common sense.

I have exact and direct quotes from the BRB listing all special rules in the game (and hinting at those that aren't), which is pure RAW. You base yours on the assumption that Psyker being a USR immediately means that all Psychic Powers are special rules too. This is not RAW as you got no written rule to back it up.

Quoted from The Tennets of YMDC:

4. Rules as Written are not How You Would Play It. Please clearly state which one you are talking about during a rules debate, and do not argue a RAW point against a HYWPI point (or vice-versa).


Your way of playing is fine if your opponents agree on it, but it's not RAW and therefore doesn't belong in YMDC.

So, for everyone just tuning in to the thread:

Hammerhead, or rather its beneficial S+1 effect, is therefore stackable in reference to p.2 stating that anything stacks (and how) unless otherwise stated - and since this is not the case here, the motion stands.


Feel free to come back to the problem at hand from a different angle, maybe there are still rules we did not find yet. This very argument of yours about Psychic Powers being special rules, however, has been debunked in detail and is void.

Thanks for keeping the discussion civil though, sadly, that's not a given in YMDC.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/03 23:03:03


   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
jeffersonian, I have a model. How do I know what special rules the model has?

The rules for your model will be listed in the model's unit entry.

SJ


Where in the Unit entry are the special rules located?

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
Where exactly does it state that psychic powers are special rules?

Keep in mind that we use a permissive ruleset. RAW, a seemingly logic connection between the USR "Psyker" and psychic powers therefore being special rules isn't enough.

I stated quotes that explicitely tell you what special rules are. In a permissive ruleset, you need to either quote where it says that psychic powers are special rules or drop the point.

Pg. 41, upper left corner, under the heading "Psyker". Of course, I and others already cite and quoted that. As to the 4+1+1 does not necessarily equal 6, I cited and quoted those rules, too, back a page on this thread.

SJ


I see you're completely ignoring my argument that the rules on pages 66-68, 418-423 and the Psychic Power entries in codices are the rules for Psykers and Psychic Powers, not the Psyker USR. Is that because you can't disprove it?

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

 PrinceRaven wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
Where exactly does it state that psychic powers are special rules?

Keep in mind that we use a permissive ruleset. RAW, a seemingly logic connection between the USR "Psyker" and psychic powers therefore being special rules isn't enough.

I stated quotes that explicitely tell you what special rules are. In a permissive ruleset, you need to either quote where it says that psychic powers are special rules or drop the point.

Pg. 41, upper left corner, under the heading "Psyker". Of course, I and others already cite and quoted that. As to the 4+1+1 does not necessarily equal 6, I cited and quoted those rules, too, back a page on this thread.

SJ


I see you're completely ignoring my argument that the rules on pages 66-68, 418-423 and the Psychic Power entries in codices are the rules for Psykers and Psychic Powers, not the Psyker USR. Is that because you can't disprove it?

Not ignoring. I stand by my statement, and hold that your premise is too narrow and exclusive, as the rules support Peych powers falling under the restrictions and limitation of Special Rules.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

And I hold my statement that your argument is based on a false premise. It seems we're at an impasse. Shall we just call it and let the thread vanish into page 2 obscurity?

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

 PrinceRaven wrote:
And I hold my statement that your argument is based on a false premise. It seems we're at an impasse. Shall we just call it and let the thread vanish into page 2 obscurity?

Was always my intention. Been saying this requires a GW fix or TO attention since last year.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




1) Mastery Levels are a special rule, e.g. pg24 of Codex GK

2) Psyker is a special rule, e.g. BRB pg41

3) Psykic test is a special rule, being part of Psykers subitem

4) Powers without type, BRB 68, "rules for using it will be clearly expressed within its entry"

5) Hammerhand, Codex GK pg 25, "this strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers"

6) Might of Titan, Codex GK pg 25, "strength bonus from MoT is cumulative with that from Hammerhand"

7) Psykic test is also a special rule, by passing the check a power can be manifested, BRB rules under Psyker special rule

8) BRB pg 2 tells to multiply, then add. Hammerhand breaks this rule, thus making it a special rule

9) BRB pg 32, "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main rules, it is represented by a special rule" -> it can't get more clear than that

10) BRB pg 32 "What special rules do I have?". It was already shown that anything psyker related are special rules.

11) BRB pg 68 lists the cases when psychic powers can be cumulative, anything else is against RAW -> entry for MoT declares it to be cumulative with Hammerhand (needless permission based on the BRB, but it is there anyway)

To me it is clearly RAW that
i) Psychic powers fall under special rules
ii) Same powers are not cumulative, no permission for that given
iii) Hammerhand especially breaking the rule from BRB pg 2 ensuring that it indeed is a Special Rule.

I have presented my case, I urge you to do the same rather than just pointing at pg 2 saying "+ is a +".
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Naw wrote:
1) Mastery Levels are a special rule, e.g. pg24 of Codex GK

2) Psyker is a special rule, e.g. BRB pg41

3) Psykic test is a special rule, being part of Psykers subitem


"A model with this special rule is a Psyker. Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66."

Psyker is a special rule that makes the model a Psyker. Psychic tests are part of the rules for Psyker models, not the Psyker Special Rule.

Your argument has the same flawed premise as jeffersonian's.

1. It is the assault phase after assault moves but before blows are struck, my Psyker has a warp charge available and has not used used Hammerhand this turn, so I have permission to manifest Hammerhand. - "This power is used during the Assault phase in either's player turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck."

2. I have permission to follow the usual steps for manifesting a psychic power in pages 67=68 as my Librarian is a Psyker.

3. I have permission to resolve the power according to instructions in its entry. - "Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not nullify it through a successful Deny the \Witch roll, you can now resolve the psychic power according to instructions in its entry."

4. The Hammerhand entry instructs me to apply +1 Strength to the unit, so I do. - "If the psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including independent characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the Assault phase."

5. The unit already has had Hammerhand cast on it, so I have 2 +1 Strength modifiers, following the rules for multiple modifiers, Each model's current strength is now +2. - "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/04 05:23:34


 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




You are conveniently ignoring my 8th point. You take the rules that support your position and ignore the rules against it.

Hammerhand entry changes the rules from page 2 -> special rule.

Might of Titan is cumulativr with Hammerhand. Nowhere is it stated that Hammerhand is cumulative with Hammerhand. Nowhere.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Naw wrote:
You are conveniently ignoring my 8th point. You take the rules that support your position and ignore the rules against it.

Hammerhand entry changes the rules from page 2 -> special rule.


Hammerhand is not a special rule, it is a psychic power.

Grey Knights Codex, page 24 - Librarian:
"SPECIAL RULES: The Aegis, And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), Psyker, (Mastery Level 2).

PSYCHIC POWERS: Hammerhand (see opposite)."

Might of Titan is cumulativr with Hammerhand. Nowhere is it stated that Hammerhand is cumulative with Hammerhand. Nowhere.


Omission of permission is not denial, permission is granted as I have shown.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Naw wrote:
You are conveniently ignoring my 8th point. You take the rules that support your position and ignore the rules against it.

Hammerhand entry changes the rules from page 2 -> special rule.

Might of Titan is cumulativr with Hammerhand. Nowhere is it stated that Hammerhand is cumulative with Hammerhand. Nowhere.

So you are saying that Hammerhand is unique?

"Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex."(32)

Does Hammerhand make it abundantly clear that the unit that it is cast upon gains a special rule? Mo? then Hammerhand is not a Special Rule.

"similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers, scenario special rules or being hunkered down in a particular type of terrain. Where this is the case, the rule that governs the psychic power, scenario or terrain type in question will make this abundantly clear."(32)

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




Answer to this simple yes/no question:

Does Hammerhand follow the often quoted rules in support of stacking on page 2?

I suggest you stick to RAW as the tenets dictate rather than going by your own opinion.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Naw wrote:
Answer to this simple yes/no question:

Does Hammerhand follow the often quoted rules in support of stacking on page 2?

I suggest you stick to RAW as the tenets dictate rather than going by your own opinion.


Yes, with the sole exception that it has explicit permission to apply its addition before multiplication, as I have proved recently on this page.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/04 06:12:57


 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 DeathReaper wrote:
Naw wrote:
You are conveniently ignoring my 8th point. You take the rules that support your position and ignore the rules against it.

Hammerhand entry changes the rules from page 2 -> special rule.

Might of Titan is cumulativr with Hammerhand. Nowhere is it stated that Hammerhand is cumulative with Hammerhand. Nowhere.

So you are saying that Hammerhand is unique?

"Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex."(32)

Does Hammerhand make it abundantly clear that the unit that it is cast upon gains a special rule? Mo? then Hammerhand is not a Special Rule.


I am not claiming Hammerhand bestows a special rule to a unit. I am however saying that pg 2 shows the order of math and pg 32 shows that special rules break/modify basic rules, ergo Hammerhand is a special rule.

Furthermore, Might of Titans specifically states it is cumulative with Hammerhand. Hammerhand does not specify it to be cumulative with anything else. I suggest you come up with a written rule that specifically states that Hammerhand is cumulative with Hammerhand. RAW, it isn't as I have demonstrated. RAI it isn't as has been implied. That you choose to ignore those rules makes it a house rule for you.

"similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers, scenario special rules or being hunkered down in a particular type of terrain. Where this is the case, the rule that governs the psychic power, scenario or terrain type in question will make this abundantly clear."(32)


Yes, that supports my stance, not yours. I have tried to make you understand that but the failure is yours.

One final time: Show me the rule that says Hammerhand is cumulative with Hammerhand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
Naw wrote:
Answer to this simple yes/no question:

Does Hammerhand follow the often quoted rules in support of stacking on page 2?

I suggest you stick to RAW as the tenets dictate rather than going by your own opinion.


Yes, with the sole exception that it has explicit permission to apply its addition before multiplication, as I have proved recently on this page.


So pg 2 rule of multiplication before addition equals Hammerhand's addition before multiplication and this somehow does not contradict what page 32 says _some of the special rules_ to be.

I am glad we got this one sorted out. RAW it does not support your argument but mine. I have proven my point and step out now unless you provide a written rule saying Hammerhand being cumulative with itself. Your continuous failure to provide such evidence does not prove your point, but gives your HIWPI view on it.

Final time, RAW, Hammerhand is not given permission to be cumulative with Hammerhand.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/04 07:18:28


 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Naw wrote:
I am not claiming Hammerhand bestows a special rule to a unit. I am however saying that pg 2 shows the order of math and pg 32 shows that special rules break/modify basic rules, ergo Hammerhand is a special rule.


If everythnig that broke/modified the basic rules was a special rule every single advanced rule would be a special rule. Just because special rules break/modify basic rules doesn't mean everything that breaks/modifies basic rules is a special rule, your argument is an affirming the consequent logical fallacy.

Furthermore, Might of Titans specifically states it is cumulative with Hammerhand. Hammerhand does not specify it to be cumulative with anything else. I suggest you come up with a written rule that specifically states that Hammerhand is cumulative with Hammerhand. RAW, it isn't as I have demonstrated. RAI it isn't as has been implied. That you choose to ignore those rules makes it a house rule for you.


This is a ridiculous argument, you can't just pick a rule and state that since it doesn't say it's cumulative it automatically isn't. regardless of any other rules.

One final time: Show me the rule that says Hammerhand is cumulative with Hammerhand.


1. It is the assault phase after assault moves but before blows are struck, my Psyker has a warp charge available and has not used used Hammerhand this turn, so I have permission to manifest Hammerhand. - "This power is used during the Assault phase in either's player turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck."

2. I have permission to follow the usual steps for manifesting a psychic power in pages 67=68 as my Librarian is a Psyker.

3. I have permission to resolve the power according to instructions in its entry. - "Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not nullify it through a successful Deny the \Witch roll, you can now resolve the psychic power according to instructions in its entry."

4. The Hammerhand entry instructs me to apply +1 Strength to the unit, so I do. - "If the psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including independent characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the Assault phase."

5. The unit already has had Hammerhand cast on it, so I have 2 +1 Strength modifiers, following the rules for multiple modifiers, Each model's current strength is now +2. - "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/04 07:26:58


 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Naw wrote:


I am not claiming Hammerhand bestows a special rule to a unit. I am however saying that pg 2 shows the order of math and pg 32 shows that special rules break/modify basic rules, ergo Hammerhand is a special rule.

Except it is not a special rule as it is not on page 32-43.

So you are saying that Hammerhand is unique?

"Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex."(Emphasis mine, 32)

No Hammerhand is not unique, so do you have any actual rules to support your position?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naw wrote:
Show me the rule that says Hammerhand is cumulative with Hammerhand.

Easy:

we have permission for a IC psyker to cast and resolve hammerand on the unit he is in.

He casts Hammerhand and the unit gets a +1 Str, so 4+1 =5

we have permission for the unit to cast and resolve hammerand on thier own unit.

The unit casts Hammerhand and the unit gets a +1 Str, so 4+1+1 =6

Unless you have some sort of restriction that we overlooked...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/04 07:32:23


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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Naw - for your claim that it is a special rule to be true, the rule "hammerhand" has to make it "abundantly clear" that it is a special rule . Please show where hammerhand does this , page and exact line.
   
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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Naw wrote:
I am not claiming Hammerhand bestows a special rule to a unit. I am however saying that pg 2 shows the order of math and pg 32 shows that special rules break/modify basic rules, ergo Hammerhand is a special rule.


Just so I understand, anything that breaks or modifies basic rules is a special rule, that is your argument?

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Happyjew wrote:
Naw wrote:
I am not claiming Hammerhand bestows a special rule to a unit. I am however saying that pg 2 shows the order of math and pg 32 shows that special rules break/modify basic rules, ergo Hammerhand is a special rule.


Just so I understand, anything that breaks or modifies basic rules is a special rule, that is your argument?


That is what BRB says. Hammerhand does _not_ follow the page 2 rule as has been shown.

Also permission to cast and resolve a power does not equal permission to be cumulative, the claim for that has no basis whatsoever in the written rules. Nothing new was brought up in response to my messages, just the same faulty rules interpretetations that are not supported. It is time to move on.
   
Made in au
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.

Lets humour you all by discounting the special rule argument and focus on the Rules listed on pages 66-69. Lets take it step by step assuming no permission unless stated as per a permissive rule set yes? The assumption being that the Psyker USR grants permission to use these rules and these rules (on Pages66-69) grant permissions for the use of Powers using the rules listed.

The model is a psyker (as per the Psyker USR) so it has permission to have X amount of powers, use said powers with X amount of Warp charges and may only use its powers once per turn Following the rules for Manifesting a Psychic Power.

With this we intrinsically know and multiple of a power must come from two or more psykers. But at this point we have no permission for any power to be cumulative with itself or with a Different power.

Now when we look at the general rules for powers under Resolve Psychic Power it states that: Unless otherwise stayed, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative. This gives us permission for different powers to be cumulative, different being different named powers and not different castings of the same power. As we know full well a single psyker cannot manifest the same power twice in one turn. So Different must be different powers and not different casters/psykers/sources.

This is the only permission we have regarding multiple powers, only for different powers to be cumulative. We have no permission for powers that are the same, outside of their own text giving specific permission, to be cumulative with themselves.
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I'm just going to copy-paste this because some people still can't get behind the concept of RAW

 Sigvatr wrote:
Hmmmm I just re-read the part on psychic powers and stacking and I guess I know where the "con-stacking" side has a misunderstanding. Quoting for future reference:

Now - what are "special rules"? The rulebook says that...

Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers,scenario special rules or being hunkered down in a particular type of terrain.


...and this might make people think that psychic powers are special rules. But the rulebook explicitely tells us what "special rules" are:

For ease of consultation, we've presented the special rules in alphabetical order.


...just in front of the list that contains all basic "special rules". At the same time, it says that those aren't all "special rules":

Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex.


...but then says where to find them.


Unless anyone comes up with an exact quote from the BRB that says that psychic powers are special rules, every single point you try to make is a waste of time.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/04 11:33:06


   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

 Bausk wrote:
Lets humour you all by discounting the special rule argument and focus on the Rules listed on pages 66-69. Lets take it step by step assuming no permission unless stated as per a permissive rule set yes? The assumption being that the Psyker USR grants permission to use these rules and these rules (on Pages66-69) grant permissions for the use of Powers using the rules listed.

The model is a psyker (as per the Psyker USR) so it has permission to have X amount of powers, use said powers with X amount of Warp charges and may only use its powers once per turn Following the rules for Manifesting a Psychic Power.

With this we intrinsically know and multiple of a power must come from two or more psykers. But at this point we have no permission for any power to be cumulative with itself or with a Different power.

Now when we look at the general rules for powers under Resolve Psychic Power it states that: Unless otherwise stayed, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative. This gives us permission for different powers to be cumulative, different being different named powers and not different castings of the same power. As we know full well a single psyker cannot manifest the same power twice in one turn. So Different must be different powers and not different casters/psykers/sources.

This is the only permission we have regarding multiple powers, only for different powers to be cumulative. We have no permission for powers that are the same, outside of their own text giving specific permission, to be cumulative with themselves.


You mean apart from these rules I've already clearly laid out?

1. It is the assault phase after assault moves but before blows are struck, my Psyker has a warp charge available and has not used used Hammerhand this turn, so I have permission to manifest Hammerhand. - "This power is used during the Assault phase in either's player turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck."

2. I have permission to follow the usual steps for manifesting a psychic power in pages 67=68 as my Librarian is a Psyker.

3. I have permission to resolve the power according to instructions in its entry. - "Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not nullify it through a successful Deny the \Witch roll, you can now resolve the psychic power according to instructions in its entry."

4. The Hammerhand entry instructs me to apply +1 Strength to the unit, so I do. - "If the psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including independent characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the Assault phase."

5. The unit already has had Hammerhand cast on it, so I have 2 +1 Strength modifiers, following the rules for multiple modifiers, Each model's current strength is now +2. - "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

Which step is denied by which rule?

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Sigvatr wrote:
Unless anyone comes up with an exact quote from the BRB that says that psychic powers are special rules, every single point you try to make is a waste of time.


So every model in the game can use psychic powers ?
   
 
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