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champagne_socialist wrote:

 Dr. Serling wrote:
Even with a 2+ cover save and 4++, they are still a bunch of t3 immobile models. Sure, they will lay waste to near anything they shoot at, and with all those heavy flamers no assault will stick, but T3 is still T3. You will fail saves sooner or later even with 2+ saves. If invisibility fails/opponent goes first you are in trouble, or any ignore cover shooting with any weight. Being able to pick your powers makes it viable, but otherwise you would be screwed.

This unit plus skyshield is looking at 575+ points depending on what you give your inquisitor. For that cost, most armies can dump enough mid/high strength fire into them to kill several chimps a turn. 12 models on the skyshield are asking for large blast and template weapons.

The skyshield is very wide so I wouldn't have to bunch up my models.

the squad is 10 joakeros- 350, coteaz- 100- level 1 psyker with conversion beamer inquisitor- 100, 550points in total but that would be 10 lascannons, 1 conversion beamer and d6 str 4 shots from coteaz, all re roll to hit and all ignore cover.

If I don't go first there is still a 50% chance of night fighting to give me a 2+ cover save on the first turn and with coteaz I have a 33% chance to steal the iniative to go first.

Because the joakeros have a 48 inch range they will be right at the back of my deployment out of range of mass fire. I know t3 sucks but a 2+ cover and a 4++ will probably stop people firing expensive large blasts at them which will be very eneffecftive.

I included the price of the skyshield in my cost, and forgot the conversion beamer on the inquiz. Putting the unit at 625. Night fighting means that your range is limited as well, meaning they can focus down the rest of your force. Large blasts will still be effective if you can kill a few chimps. They are not cheap and dead easy to wound, as most large blasts are S4 or better. Your characters can be sniped out(although unlikely with a 2+LOS and 2+ save). Both thunderfire cannons and whirlwinds are common, ignoring cover barrage weapons that can force several wounds. Against 4++, every 2 wounds downs a chimp. Wounding on 3's 2 out of 3 hits from a blast wound, so 3 hits in a shooting phase kills a chimp, etc. Even with a 2+ save, enough dakka will bring them down. 10 lascannons that ignore cover are laughable against a horde or guard, deamons etc. Anything that can get close and pepper small arms will eventually cut through.

The other alternative is to ignore it. An army that can't directly outshoot said unit is probably mobile enough to ignore it and kill everything else.

 Dr. Serling wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Dr. Serling wrote:
Even with a 2+ cover save and 4++, they are still a bunch of t3 immobile models. Sure, they will lay waste to near anything they shoot at, and with all those heavy flamers no assault will stick, but T3 is still T3. You will fail saves sooner or later even with 2+ saves. If invisibility fails/opponent goes first you are in trouble, or any ignore cover shooting with any weight. Being able to pick your powers makes it viable, but otherwise you would be screwed.

This unit plus skyshield is looking at 575+ points depending on what you give your inquisitor. For that cost, most armies can dump enough mid/high strength fire into them to kill several chimps a turn. 12 models on the skyshield are asking for large blast and template weapons.

The skyshield is very wide so I wouldn't have to bunch up my models.

the squad is 10 joakeros- 350, coteaz- 100- level 1 psyker with conversion beamer inquisitor- 100, 550points in total but that would be 10 lascannons, 1 conversion beamer and d6 str 4 shots from coteaz, all re roll to hit and all ignore cover.

If I don't go first there is still a 50% chance of night fighting to give me a 2+ cover save on the first turn and with coteaz I have a 33% chance to steal the iniative to go first.

Because the joakeros have a 48 inch range they will be right at the back of my deployment out of range of mass fire. I know t3 sucks but a 2+ cover and a 4++ will probably stop people firing expensive large blasts at them which will be very eneffecftive.

I included the price of the skyshield in my cost, and forgot the conversion beamer on the inquiz. Putting the unit at 625. Night fighting means that your range is limited as well, meaning they can focus down the rest of your force. Large blasts will still be effective if you can kill a few chimps. They are not cheap and dead easy to wound, as most large blasts are S4 or better. Your characters can be sniped out(although unlikely with a 2+LOS and 2+ save). Both thunderfire cannons and whirlwinds are common, ignoring cover barrage weapons that can force several wounds. Against 4++, every 2 wounds downs a chimp. Wounding on 3's 2 out of 3 hits from a blast wound, so 3 hits in a shooting phase kills a chimp, etc. Even with a 2+ save, enough dakka will bring them down. 10 lascannons that ignore cover are laughable against a horde or guard, deamons etc. Anything that can get close and pepper small arms will eventually cut through.

The other alternative is to ignore it. An army that can't directly outshoot said unit is probably mobile enough to ignore it and kill everything else.

Remember that Joakero's have access to heavy flamers so horder armies that get close will get heavy flamered. I never included the skyshield in the cost because I will use it for other units as well which can benefit from the invun save.

Also I will now use a SM 65 point librarian instead of an inquisitor as inquisitors can't get telepathy so the overall cost of the squad is just over 500 points and that includes 10 joakeros and 2 hqs.

You may think it is expensive but 500 points for 10 lascannons that re roll to hit, ignore cover, coteaz and a librarian and they all have a 2+ cover and a 4++ invun. If I took a BA dev squad with 4 lascannons it would cost me 355 points and I would only have 4 lascannons instead of the joakeros who give me 10 lascannons/multi meltas/heavy flamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also add that the joakeros are not there to take out the hordes. i have 7 point henchmen with stormbolters who will go around shooting at light armour. I also have imperial psykers who have large blast psychic attacks.

No one is saying it won't work. You asked what we think. And I think the consensus is simply that its useable, but inefficient.

This is coming from a guy who bought 72 toy monkeys to play a bunch of crazy Jokaero games.

 ductvader wrote:
No one is saying it won't work. You asked what we think. And I think the consensus is simply that its useable, but inefficient.

This is coming from a guy who bought 72 toy monkeys to play a bunch of crazy Jokaero games.

Only thing I would add is that the actual unit is 350 points. It is wrong to include coteaz in that points cost because I have to take coteaz in a henchmen army so even if i dont take the joakeros i still have to spend 100 points on coteaz.

350 points might seem like a lot but considering how cheap henchmen are it works well. I can get heavy bolter henchmen for 10 points or plasma cannon henchmen for 20 points or boltgum henchmen for 5 points. The choices are so cheap.

The unit will destroy anything it shoots at and yes they are easy to kill on paper but having a 2+ cover and 4++ it will deter people from shooting their long ranged powerful weapons at them due to me getting a 2+ cover. Short ranged weapons should be out of range as I have a 48 inch range so can be right at the back of my deployment so i am not worried about mass fire. Barrage weapons would worry me as they ignore cover but I would still have a 4++ and I don't see an awful amount of barrage. And If I did it would be a riority for me to take out.

So were you looking for input?

It will not destroy anything it shoots at.

Shooting hordes don't have to get within heavy flamer range.

Coteaz is vital to making the Jokaeros work, so including his points cost provides for an accurate unit analysis. Just as including the cost of the Skyshield and SM Librarian is.

2+ Cover is mitigated by any number of things. Off the top of my head: Riptide star with buffmander, barrage (TFC, Wyverns, Manticores), enemy also taking perfect timing (50m Guard blob with Azrael for a 4++ and an Inquisitor), template weapons (Heldrakes, Nightspinners, Dreadknights). A few of these don't need line of sight, a few can stay out of it until they can shoot, one is off the board until it gets to shoot, one is more durable than your listed unit, and a few outrange it. All are better ideas.

...I'm out.

 ductvader wrote:
So were you looking for input?

your input was helpful in the sense it helped me realise tactics. You highlighted that they are T3 and that mass fire will get through a 2+ cover so it highlighted I need to position them far back and make full use of their 48 inch range weapons so that I stay out of range of mass fire boltguns and hopefully people fire big weapons at them which will be wasted considering I will have a 2+ cover.

If your opponent can choose powers any unit in the game you can attach a (telekinesis?) psyker to can deep strike as its move. If you set up as far as possible to maximize the distance your opponent needs to cross he gets a free pass to hang out out of your range until he's ready to just teleport into your face.

I'm not 100% on how we'll teleport homers and other such things work with deep strikes from units that didn't come from reserve, so they might scatter, but just be aware anyone you can add a 50 point psyker to can close the gap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck, that could just be a single 75 point psyker who puts himself within 24" of you then forces you to reroll saves while a different long range cover ignoring unit wipes you out. You know, if you want to take mishaps out of the equation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with picking your own powers is that suddenly the 1-2 good powers out of bad disciplines will ruin your day because you forgot they existed.

If you're ALREADY looking at henchman squads, go with the Care Bear Stare choice. 8 psykers per squad, plus 3 warriors to soak up wounds, and 1 jokaero to possibly buff everyone. If you're choosing your own psychic powers, then you can buff the above squad with Ignores Cover and rerolls on a St 10, Ap 1 Large Blast. AND they'll be cheap enough for you to afford more than one.

I say go for it man. Just tell us how it goes.

2+ cover from night fight can't be counted on. Ignore cover, night vision, and spotlights are a real problem.

10 TL LC with tank hunter is overkill when blowing up a Chimera.

I would be more concerned with 3 squads of 3 jokaero and 9 warriors than the 12 monkey deathstar.

 schadenfreude wrote:
2+ cover from night fight can't be counted on. Ignore cover, night vision, and spotlights are a real problem.

10 TL LC with tank hunter is overkill when blowing up a Chimera.

I would be more concerned with 3 squads of 3 jokaero and 9 warriors than the 12 monkey deathstar.

Yeh I was thinking about that because it does make more sense, only issue is that coteaz and his squad get to shoot at all units arriving from reserve within 12' of him. More joakeros in his squad the more shots. Also the psychic abilities I will choose can only benefit one squad so the more joakeros I have in 1 squad the more benefits.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:
If you're ALREADY looking at henchman squads, go with the Care Bear Stare choice. 8 psykers per squad, plus 3 warriors to soak up wounds, and 1 jokaero to possibly buff everyone. If you're choosing your own psychic powers, then you can buff the above squad with Ignores Cover and rerolls on a St 10, Ap 1 Large Blast. AND they'll be cheap enough for you to afford more than one.

yeh psykers are awesome, I have 9 of them and I am planning on buying another 7 so I can have 2 squads of 8.

Things that will kill your death star:
Tau - markerlights+ion accelerators and/or fire warriors
Eldar - wave serpents, warp spiders
Dark Eldar - lots of venoms
Daemons - screamerstar, FMC spam
CSM - heldrakes, noise marines
SM - whirlwinds, TFC
GK - dreadknights, interceptors
IG - wyrverns, basilisk, guard blobs
Sisters - exorcists, seraphim
Orks - shootas

I probably forgot a few, but the point is that there are common units in most armies that can hurt you and kill the desthstar-ish unit. So, the rest of your army will need to be able to deal with these. Otherwise, your jokeros are (literally in some cases) toast.

I don't think I'd put exorcists in the category of things that would kill his blob. In fact, that'd be one of the types of things his blob is optimized against (relatively low rate of fire high strength shots).

Speaking of night fighting though, Immotekh and a couple solar pulses could effectively limit your range to 36", but I'm not sure Necrons really have the tools to take advantage of that one.

My question is, why build a stationary 2+/4++ deathstar when you could build a mobile 2+/4++ one?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually... I'm not sure seraphim would do that much to that unit either, but 10 lascannon shots at BS3 with rerolls should only kill about 4 a turn. That's 2.5 turns to kill a 150-180 point unit. And all they have are rerollable 6++. I'd hate to do the math for them shooting at a screamerstar or even just some 3++ dudes.

I really like Jokeros but I don't think a buffed super blob is the way to run them. The MSU approach would be more resilient as it wouldn't be such a big juicy target, smaller squads also allow to benefit more from the space monkey buffs though you will lose on maximising the potential from psychic powers...

Best bet is to give it a try.

D

So, can your opponent also bring divination psykers and pick their powers at will?

I like running 4/5 in a bastion with a few bolter acolytes for ablative wounds and coteaz obviously.

it takes pen roll of 15 to demolish your structure , 14 just kills an acolyte. It dies if charged by MC or armourbane (and they survive overwatch) or if hit by too much melta but overall its much more survivable than skyshield (just make sure to assemble it with the firing point walls together)

problem with skyshield is ws causing instant death to coteaz and having thousands of shots.

Coteaz, a couple of plasma cannon sevitors and two Jokaeros on a bastion is still a good squad

wtnind wrote:
I like running 4/5 in a bastion with a few bolter acolytes for ablative wounds and coteaz obviously.

it takes pen roll of 15 to demolish your structure , 14 just kills an acolyte. It dies if charged by MC or armourbane (and they survive overwatch) or if hit by too much melta but overall its much more survivable than skyshield (just make sure to assemble it with the firing point walls together)

problem with skyshield is ws causing instant death to coteaz and having thousands of shots.

Can you assemble it so all firing points are on the same side? how many can you get on one side?

Sisters could roll up dominions with flammers and purge you like a barbeque left on the grill for too long.

I tried something like this with two jakero and three servitor plasma cannons, all presienced. It worked amazing until my opponent DS'd terminators, heavy flammed them and then assaulted them. He DS'd raptors and termies right near them in spite of my two servo skulls. (2 wasn't enough to cover all angles.) I killed some of the raptors but once they assaulted it was a one turn slaughter.

Isn't 550 points (plus sky shield) a bit expensive for ~10 shots?
You are either going to over-kill expensive small units or only make a dent in larger units.

Against stuff like this, I simply combat squad all my marines. You kill 2 squads of 5 on my way in, and 5 more with overwatch. Then they all die in the assault. I'll gladly trade 15 marines for all those guys.

champagne_socialist wrote:

Can you assemble it so all firing points are on the same side? how many can you get on one side?

2 guys can shoot out of each firing point and there are 2 faces each with 2 windows and one bottom floor slit:
------------ | X X | | | | | | | | X | |__________|
It looks like this, but the door covers over a bottom floor firing point wherever you place it, so you can place the 2 pieces that look like the above at right angles and face it outwards into the board and then have the other 2 sides (with the door glued over one slot) pointing towards your board edge. This leaves you getting a minimum of 3 firing points pointing at anything worth shooting at and your door on the safe side of the board for disembarking (scoring objectives etc).

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Isn't 550 points (plus sky shield) a bit expensive for ~10 shots?
You are either going to over-kill expensive small units or only make a dent in larger units.

Against stuff like this, I simply combat squad all my marines. You kill 2 squads of 5 on my way in, and 5 more with overwatch. Then they all die in the assault. I'll gladly trade 15 marines for all those guys.

it is 350 points and why would I spend 2 turns shooting 10 lascannons at two 5 man marine tactical squads? I'm sure I will have other units to shoot at your marines and I am sure you willl have a better target for me to shoot my lascannons at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wtnind wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Can you assemble it so all firing points are on the same side? how many can you get on one side?

2 guys can shoot out of each firing point and there are 2 faces each with 2 windows and one bottom floor slit:
------------ | X X | | | | | | | | X | |__________|
It looks like this, but the door covers over a bottom floor firing point wherever you place it, so you can place the 2 pieces that look like the above at right angles and face it outwards into the board and then have the other 2 sides (with the door glued over one slot) pointing towards your board edge. This leaves you getting a minimum of 3 firing points pointing at anything worth shooting at and your door on the safe side of the board for disembarking (scoring objectives etc).

ok i get you now. Never used bastion before though but isn't there a damage table chart if they pen you? it seems great that a glancing hit only causes a wound but a pen causes horrioble results.

I agree with the above posters, that 10 is expensive over-kill. I've had pretty darn good luck with 5 Jokaero shooting from inside a Chimera, with a little Prescience support. Not overly expensive, but pretty killy.

 Homeskillet wrote:
I agree with the above posters, that 10 is expensive over-kill. I've had pretty darn good luck with 5 Jokaero shooting from inside a Chimera, with a little Prescience support. Not overly expensive, but pretty killy.

I would do squads of 5 but half the joakeros would miss out on the psychic buffs. I probably will have 2 squads of 5 though.

It's about diminishing returns. You're at the point of either massive overkill or a total waste. Either way you're wasting points.

champagne_socialist wrote:

ok i get you now. Never used bastion before though but isn't there a damage table chart if they pen you? it seems great that a glancing hit only causes a wound but a pen causes horrioble results.

Yeah most of the pen results are pretty bad but they need 15s to for that (AV14) which means it's tougher to crack than a landraider and it's only 75 points. Mostly the down sides are lance weapons, melta weapons and melee from chain fists or monsterous creatures.

It's not unkillable but then nothing is. For it's points cost it does a lot more for protecting your jokaero (and ensuring line of sight!) than a skyshield does.

Inquisition gets no access to biomancy does it?

champagne_socialist wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
If they're tall enough to see through the slits...they can shoot...and be shot.

I was originally referring to the fact that most models will be below you and therfore spreading out would lead to less models having line of sight because they can't see at that downward angle.

I will convert so the slits are wider.

That is highly illegal and downright cheating your opponent.