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hobojebus wrote:

That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.

I am shocked that this has become a thing. People complaining that GW are bringing out books at a rapid pace, let alone supplements, data slates etc. for years we complained that no new rules ever appeared!

 daedalus wrote:

Bottle of Scotch: $60-100, 4 hours (would be six, but i'm deducting for the hangover)

Dude. My bottles of bourbon last me about 3 weeks. What the hell?

 kronk wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

Bottle of Scotch: $60-100, 4 hours (would be six, but i'm deducting for the hangover)

Dude. My bottles of bourbon last me about 3 weeks. What the hell?

I... might have a problem. Working on it.

So. A lot of people are unhappy with the direction taken with 6ed. We have entire codexes basically banned in most gaming locales. The Battle Brothers mechanic is changing Allies from a nice option to almost an auto take. Shouldn't we be happy GW is (rumored mind you) is stepping outside the usual cycle to hopefully fix things?

The community is seemingly incapable of fixing things or even agreeing on what needs fixing. If players are going to insist on an official fix. Then I for one can't wait.

I agree that my value out of the BRB benefits from my teenage son and I sharing it. Nearly two years. Id say 200 games each in that time ( we average two a week, at least ). Hours spent reading, painting, list building. Nevermind time spent with him that I enjoy immensely and makes every penny worthwhile

 Ailaros wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.

Since we're relying on useless anecdotes for our arguments here, I've logged 524 hours on Planetside 2, which is a free-to-play video game.

Sure, and you won't believe how many times I've gotten to have sex with my wife, and she hasn't charged me a dime.

Does that make 40k a bad value?

Yes it does. Assuming we're following the OP's (and yours, since you're defending it?) beyond terrible logic of "value=X hours of entertainment divided by cost". "40K has better entertainment value than Y because the $75 rulebook allowed me to play the game for X amount of hours!" is a poor argument that's based on nothing but anecdotes.

Its not anecdotal.... i simply think 75bucks for 2 years of fun os a bargain!!!

It's 100% absolutely anecdotal, because who says everyone plays the game every day for 2 years? And how is that exclusive to 40K? I just said on the last page that I've clocked 520+ hours into Planetside 2, which is free. So you tell me, which has provided more entertainment value? 40K, which I've clocked maybe 100 or so hours into over the past two years, and which cost me 75 dollars (actually zero, I've yet to spend a single dime on GW products and never will unless they tighten up their rules), or Planetside 2, which I've put 500 hours into and cost me nothing?

Or Legend of Super Mario 64, which I bought for $30 16 years ago and have played every single day since?

All anecdotes.

Just think about all the people that got the collector's edition books. Imagine how much their value, both sentimental and actual, will go up for editions that are so short they are more of a foot note than an actual edition.

What I'm worried about is the mindset it puts us in. When 6th went to expensive hard cover books everyone got a bit miffed. Then they started making collector's editions with no changes, digital copies, supplements, data slates, and so on. They started getting all the money they could out of by using the rules.

People started slowly buying into it. If you would have told people all of this when 6th first dropped, the fan base would have died I can almost garuntee it. Finding out that you're paying way more for a codex and that they are going to charge more for an additional page of rules? I know at the drop people would have been very upset.

Now look at what we have. If they do another edition or 6.5 then it's a message that instead of FAQ and errata, instead of actually trying to deliver on the product you purchase that they will instead charge you to fix it. Every single player is being targeted for this.

You see a short edition. I see the grinder turning faster.

Commoragh's Fist wrote:
Its not anecdotal.... i simply think 75bucks for 2 years of fun os a bargain!!!

What army do you play ? Because I didn't have much fun playing in 6th , specialy compering that to 5th or the cost to fun ratio of other table top games. Infinity can be played at the cost of w40k books and DLC needed to play 6th , before even models are counted.

The formula for if 7th edition will be a good value is simple: will it make the game more fun than 6th edition?

If it makes the game more fun than 6th edition, then it's probably worth the money.

If it makes the game less enjoyable than 6th edition, than it's probably a rip-off because you didn't need to buy it to have the same amount of fun.

What if its only a side-grade?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's 100% absolutely anecdotal, because who says everyone plays the game every day for 2 years? And how is that exclusive to 40K? I just said on the last page that I've clocked 520+ hours into Planetside 2, which is free. So you tell me, which has provided more entertainment value? 40K, which I've clocked maybe 100 or so hours into over the past two years, and which cost me 75 dollars (actually zero, I've yet to spend a single dime on GW products and never will unless they tighten up their rules), or Planetside 2, which I've put 500 hours into and cost me nothing?

Or Legend of Super Mario 64, which I bought for $30 16 years ago and have played every single day since?

All anecdotes.

It's not entirely irrelevant because entertainment hour per pound or dollar is a valid form of comparison. Although individual's preferences confuse the matter and make the method imperfect (no one is denying that 520+ hours of a free game is better value than a couple hundred hours of GW products), most entertainment does have a roughly similar lifespan for most customers. A video game will take X number of hours for most players to finish on average, a book will take X number of hours to read on average, and perhaps even most Dakkanauts will even play at least one game of 40k or Fantasy per week, if not more, plus painting and modelling hours.

So yes, compared to many other forms of entertainment and relative to the duration of use, GW products are in fact a cost effective hobby. Mileage may vary. It's by no means the most cost effective. This doesn't invalidate any one individual's experience who unfortunately only get's to play a game every other month and of course it makes total sense to be upset that a new edition is release if you feel you didn't get enough hours of use out of the old one. BUT- when talking about the hobby as a whole you're taking the middle of the bell curve, not the extremes. Most people don't play one game every other month.

I wouldn't quite say comparative. At best, any single person's analysis is subjective. As per dakkanauts, I wouldn't say it so highly. Keep in mind there's the other wargames, tcg, video games, off topic, etc that all post here. Couple this with disenfranchised individuals that have grown bitter about 40k and have largely quit, individuals too busy to play the game, the ones that only really care for the fluff, and the ones more in it for painting and modelling and I wouldn't even say it's that high.

It also brings to question the quality of the book which, objectively, the BRB is heavily flawed, clunky, and a relatively bad ruleset in comparison to other wargames. It's all anecdotal.

Finally, one can compare it to other codices. Let us observe the previous codex. I don't know the price but does anybody here know how much the 5th edition codex was? Then divide it by the year and multiply by any natural inflation (not GW inflation) and compare it to 6th edition divided by other factors. Also remember all the DLC books and escalation that could be argued is an expansion of the book.

Another thing to observe, compare it to the price of rules for other wargames. That's probably the most important. That's when you will notice a problem. Simply put, some wargames make their rules free! And others sell it for a drastically lower price or provide more for the same cost.

Commoragh's Fist wrote:
Hey guys, I know there are plenty of talk regarding the 7th ed rumors, I just wanted to make a point that has stuck out to me. In my humble opinion the BRB isn't a bad entertainment value due to the fact that it only lasted two years. Given that the BRB was roughly the cost of a video game, I'd argue we've gotten more hours of enjoyment out of it than most people would in a video game, and in my opinion 75$ for two years of entertainment isn't a bad thing... I'm really not sure why so many are up in arms about this...

Core Rulebook, Flames of War: ~$40
Core Rulebook, Dungeons and Dragons: $40
Malifaux Rulebook: $20-$25
Warmachine, Mk. II Rulebook: $30
Core Rules: Magic the Gathering: $0
Core Rules: Mantic, Chronopia, Void, etc. $0

Core Rulebook, Warhammer 40,000: $75

I see a difference.

And guess which ruleset expires faster? The Warhammer 40k rulebook has only taken two years to expire. All of the other rulebooks I've listed have a lifespan of 4+ years, with a few lasting 8 or more. So the 40k rulebook costs twice as much and has lasted half as long as any comparable other miniatures game.

 StarTrotter wrote:
I don't know the price but does anybody here know how much the 5th edition codex was?

Around £18, I think. Dark Eldar codex is now £20 and a £2 increase since it was released for no reason seems about right for GW

The previous Tau codex cost me £12 brand new, if I remember correctly.

Just realised upon rereading your post that it seems you meant rulebook. In which case, I'm not sure.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.

Since we're relying on useless anecdotes for our arguments here, I've logged 524 hours on Planetside 2, which is a free-to-play video game.

Sure, and you won't believe how many times I've gotten to have sex with my wife, and she hasn't charged me a dime.

Does that make 40k a bad value?

Yes it does. Assuming we're following the OP's (and yours, since you're defending it?) beyond terrible logic of "value=X hours of entertainment divided by cost". "40K has better entertainment value than Y because the $75 rulebook allowed me to play the game for X amount of hours!" is a poor argument that's based on nothing but anecdotes.

I believe the important points are found in questions we aren't asking here. I believe we should looking into how much more entertainment value we can get from 40k while drinking a 75$ bottle of scotch. I'm also curious about weather or not sex was better after a game were there was a bottle of 75$ scotch, as opposed to one played on just a 6$ bottle of Vodka.

That and I guess I can go google Planetside 2 to find out the rest.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.

I am shocked that this has become a thing. People complaining that GW are bringing out books at a rapid pace, let alone supplements, data slates etc. for years we complained that no new rules ever appeared!

It's become a thing because the rules are slap dash take no notice of balance in a game that's already really imbalanced, D weapons should not be in regular 40k flat out .

All they care about is selling the most expensive models they can regardless of how it effects the game.

Add to that they EA like adoption of DLC people have every right to feel disgruntled, it used to be you buy a codex you can play that army, now you also have to buy the codex for your allies as well as the data slate that they rush out to fix an issue in the codex instead of fixing it before sending it out to print.

It's a ducking mess and getting worse.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.

I am shocked that this has become a thing. People complaining that GW are bringing out books at a rapid pace, let alone supplements, data slates etc. for years we complained that no new rules ever appeared!

Well for starters, welcome to the real world where people can't agree . I'm at a catch, I like that all the armies are being updated but I have a problem with the release rate as is. I don't think it needed to be this fast honestly. On top of that, it still doesn't solve how horridly broken the codices are or the fact that we only had a BRB that lsted 2 years long. Anyways, here's some things that make it bad. One, due to faster releases they don't bring out as many models or don't do as many significant changes. This means any hope of a real Sister book are in the gutters and now with them wanting models for everything many unit are being erased. To make matters worse, they are taking a dlc tactic with overpriced books, imbalanced habits, releasing D weapons to the game, making Tyranids only really good with dataslates, and it's very possible they removed guardsman characters to sell as dlc later on which comes off as a cheap move. On a side note, you don't really need to look past the Farsight supplement. Arguably the best yet it could have easily been represented in the normal codex with a rule on farsight and commanders not only for loyalists but also farsight's faction. Doesn't help they cost the same as a regular codex.

 Ailaros wrote:

... you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

And unless you play in a super-uppity group, this is also usually the easiest way as well as the cheapest. Hell, even if you were to print and bind it into a book, it would only cost something like $15.

 Sparkadia wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

... you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

And unless you play in a super-uppity group, this is also usually the easiest way as well as the cheapest. Hell, even if you were to print and bind it into a book, it would only cost something like $15.

Well unless the only hobby shops that have space for wargames is GW and you don't have a home built battlefield

Brother Michael wrote:
Let's wait if the 7th edition book actually replaces 6th ed or is nothing more than a compilation of the BRB, SA and Esc in one...
I agree that the price isn't necessarily terribly if you used it for two full years, but let's not forget that you also need codices, models and more to actually play the game. Also, what about those who bought the BRB like a month ago? They'll probably feel screwed over.

Then again I didn't buy it so I don't exactly have something to complain about

Fact is they will have at least a few critical changes to sell the book, otherwise we could all just continue on using what we already have

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Just think about all the people that got the collector's edition books. Imagine how much their value, both sentimental and actual, will go up for editions that are so short they are more of a foot note than an actual edition.

What I'm worried about is the mindset it puts us in. When 6th went to expensive hard cover books everyone got a bit miffed. Then they started making collector's editions with no changes, digital copies, supplements, data slates, and so on. They started getting all the money they could out of by using the rules.

People started slowly buying into it. If you would have told people all of this when 6th first dropped, the fan base would have died I can almost garuntee it. Finding out that you're paying way more for a codex and that they are going to charge more for an additional page of rules? I know at the drop people would have been very upset.

Now look at what we have. If they do another edition or 6.5 then it's a message that instead of FAQ and errata, instead of actually trying to deliver on the product you purchase that they will instead charge you to fix it. Every single player is being targeted for this.

You see a short edition. I see the grinder turning faster.

People are going to buy into it and GW is going to get away with it. The history is already there for us to see in the Video Game industry. Day 1 DLC that's already loaded onto the disk but can't be accessed without paying additional cash, sequels in a franchise being released annually that are virtually identical to their predecessors (Call of Duty comes to mind), the increasingly shorter playtime in all games across the board, draconian DRM that actively screws people who paid for the game, etc. Publishers have never been so openly spiteful toward their own community base, yet the game industry is (was) flourishing anyway. And the reason for that is that the average consumer is simply an apologist, spineless pleb. People get locked into routines, and they'll cognitively deny or gloss over any incidences or trends that might endanger that routine. For gamers, that would be taking a step back and realizing that they're getting shafted by Video Game publishers' schemes. So instead, they'll come up with a thousand reasons to justify these Publishers' behavior. "I don't see why people are so upset by DLC. Who doesn't want more content? People should stop being greedy and think they can get everything for free!" "The game doesn't need to be different from the last one, it's still a new game with new graphics and a new story a-and they've added some new mechanics, too. It's only 60 dollars, not a big deal." "Why does it matter how long the game is? As long as it's entertaining who cares. You spend 20 dollars for a 2 hour movie, don't you?" Ad nauseum.

With 40K, you see a similar cycle. Poorly balanced rules, over-costed "dataslates" and expansions, codices with cut content, the steadily ridiculously overpriced models. GW is fisting the playerbase like there's no tomorrow, and it'll only get worse. But while some players are able to step back and see what's going on, others will put their heads in the sand and justify the shenanigans anyway they can. "GW shouldn't have to balance the rules, it's not their fault WAAC TFG's abuse the strong units!" "Why do people hate extra content? That's all dataslates are and nobodies forcing you to buy them!" "GW products are expensive but it's an expensive hobby!" Ad nauseum.

Patterns, patterns.

God In Action wrote:

It's not entirely irrelevant because entertainment hour per pound or dollar is a valid form of comparison.

Not in this case at least, because by your own admission there is no standard figure for how many hours of entertainment someone will derive from 40K. That figure will deviate wildly from person to person depending on their job/family circumstances, income, other hobbies or preferred wargames, and anything else you can possibly think of. It's completely unreliable, anecdotal by definition (that definition being to take an isolated incident and try to display it as the rule. I.E. "I put in 500 hours with 6th edition since last year, therefore 6E is $75 for 500 hours of entertainment!")

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Sparkadia wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

... you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

And unless you play in a super-uppity group, this is also usually the easiest way as well as the cheapest. Hell, even if you were to print and bind it into a book, it would only cost something like $15.

Well unless the only hobby shops that have space for wargames is GW and you don't have a home built battlefield

Touche'. Not everyone can be as fortunate in their gaming circumstances. I guess, in this case, the best bet would be purchasing through a Third Party (or Your Local eBay) and trying to get a discount.

I'm with Ailaros though, I'd be alright with paying the full cost if I really had to, as I feel I've gotten my share (not to mention friends as well) of fun out of the cash.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Just think about all the people that got the collector's edition books..

No kidding!

 Sparkadia wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Sparkadia wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

... you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

And unless you play in a super-uppity group, this is also usually the easiest way as well as the cheapest. Hell, even if you were to print and bind it into a book, it would only cost something like $15.

Well unless the only hobby shops that have space for wargames is GW and you don't have a home built battlefield

Touche'. Not everyone can be as fortunate in their gaming circumstances. I guess, in this case, the best bet would be purchasing through a Third Party (or Your Local eBay) and trying to get a discount.

I'm with Ailaros though, I'd be alright with paying the full cost if I really had to, as I feel I've gotten my share (not to mention friends as well) of fun out of the cash.

Humerously they are about to close the last GW shop here so after that the only real choice is to build a gaming table. I'm kind of sad, the employee was very kind and made people come in. Narrative campaigns, tournaments, apoc games, kill teams, hell, he went out of his way to make cool battlefields with a combination of GW models, forgeworld models, greenstuff, and some personal customization. They had endless stacks of terrain as well. The place went from being dead under the previous employee to almost always having people in it painting or playing with many sales. But it's closing out. I only bought there because it was so close and the employee really did try without being irritating.

I think I'll hop off to being ebay oriented at last. GW has really finally pushed my final buttons and if I keep buying from them I think I'll quit the game for good. Overall, I'll only really buy a starter force or things that they provide discounts on. A new BRB so soon I might not but a starter force with cheap armies that would be interesting for me and a friend as well as a cheap codex is a-okay with me.

I think I got in 4 games of 6th ed. 40k.

Hmm. I will probably not be getting the new rulebook - 5th was good for 4 years or so, 6th for 2... 7th will be a 1-year special!

Problem is I can't afford it, realistically. Guess I'm going to Ebay after it's been out for 6 months.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Sparkadia wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Sparkadia wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

... you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

And unless you play in a super-uppity group, this is also usually the easiest way as well as the cheapest. Hell, even if you were to print and bind it into a book, it would only cost something like $15.

Well unless the only hobby shops that have space for wargames is GW and you don't have a home built battlefield

Touche'. Not everyone can be as fortunate in their gaming circumstances. I guess, in this case, the best bet would be purchasing through a Third Party (or Your Local eBay) and trying to get a discount.

I'm with Ailaros though, I'd be alright with paying the full cost if I really had to, as I feel I've gotten my share (not to mention friends as well) of fun out of the cash.

Humerously they are about to close the last GW shop here so after that the only real choice is to build a gaming table. I'm kind of sad, the employee was very kind and made people come in. Narrative campaigns, tournaments, apoc games, kill teams, hell, he went out of his way to make cool battlefields with a combination of GW models, forgeworld models, greenstuff, and some personal customization. They had endless stacks of terrain as well. The place went from being dead under the previous employee to almost always having people in it painting or playing with many sales. But it's closing out. I only bought there because it was so close and the employee really did try without being irritating.

I think I'll hop off to being ebay oriented at last. GW has really finally pushed my final buttons and if I keep buying from them I think I'll quit the game for good. Overall, I'll only really buy a starter force or things that they provide discounts on. A new BRB so soon I might not but a starter force with cheap armies that would be interesting for me and a friend as well as a cheap codex is a-okay with me.

Damn mate, that is a gakky situation. I can't see how closing stores that legitimately pull new players in by either word of mouth or by virtue of being full and energetic all the time can be a good strategy. It just reeks of knee-jerk.

Plenty of places on eBay are a solid 25% off, though sometimes Shipping can be rough (then again, if your flag is correct, Domestic US Shipping shouldn't be too bad as the vast majority of good sellers are in the US)

Its a bad spot to be in, certainly don't envy that position. I'm lucky enough to have several clubs nearby with very energetic players, which is really why I think I've had fun with Warhammer in general. I'd be way more reluctant to shell out more cash if I knew I was going to play out of 'obligation', if you know what I mean.

 StarTrotter wrote:


Humerously they are about to close the last GW shop here so after that the only real choice is to build a gaming table. I'm kind of sad, the employee was very kind and made people come in. Narrative campaigns, tournaments, apoc games, kill teams, hell, he went out of his way to make cool battlefields with a combination of GW models, forgeworld models, greenstuff, and some personal customization. They had endless stacks of terrain as well. The place went from being dead under the previous employee to almost always having people in it painting or playing with many sales. But it's closing out. I only bought there because it was so close and the employee really did try without being irritating.

I think I'll hop off to being ebay oriented at last. GW has really finally pushed my final buttons and if I keep buying from them I think I'll quit the game for good. Overall, I'll only really buy a starter force or things that they provide discounts on. A new BRB so soon I might not but a starter force with cheap armies that would be interesting for me and a friend as well as a cheap codex is a-okay with me.

I've built one (one was for a friend, the first one, really, I had it already for D&D). Two different designs, one folding, the other not. Design was crude, but I could give you the general idea if you want.

 daedalus wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:


Humerously they are about to close the last GW shop here so after that the only real choice is to build a gaming table. I'm kind of sad, the employee was very kind and made people come in. Narrative campaigns, tournaments, apoc games, kill teams, hell, he went out of his way to make cool battlefields with a combination of GW models, forgeworld models, greenstuff, and some personal customization. They had endless stacks of terrain as well. The place went from being dead under the previous employee to almost always having people in it painting or playing with many sales. But it's closing out. I only bought there because it was so close and the employee really did try without being irritating.

I think I'll hop off to being ebay oriented at last. GW has really finally pushed my final buttons and if I keep buying from them I think I'll quit the game for good. Overall, I'll only really buy a starter force or things that they provide discounts on. A new BRB so soon I might not but a starter force with cheap armies that would be interesting for me and a friend as well as a cheap codex is a-okay with me.

I've built one (one was for a friend, the first one, really, I had it already for D&D). Two different designs, one folding, the other not. Design was crude, but I could give you the general idea if you want.

I'd be very thankful actually. My friend has a table that was custom built to be just the right size for competitive gaming but it's just flat wood and nothing else about it. Perhaps in private though?

I do this when I play video games. I rate the value for money of the game I bought.

For example, I got Mount and Blade: warband for $20 AUD in a bundle with WFAS and the original, I've played a combined 700 hours of the thing, for someting like 2.8 cents per hour of play

In 40k, I'll have spent ~900 on my new Guard Army at 1850. I've bought ~400 dollars so far and painted for ~20 hours, having played 7 games at about an hour and a half apiece.

So I've gotten 30.5 hours out of my guard army so far. During midsemester break, I should get in double that.