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 Ailaros wrote:

Yodhrin wrote:I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again?

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".

That's a grotesque misrepresentation of my argument and you bloody well know it. My claim was that the fact that some people, myself included, won't get their money's worth refutes YOUR argument that because you personally do get your money's worth, 40K is objectively good value. Perhaps you and Zwei, another dismissive serial misrepresenter of others' views, will find happiness together on my ignore list.

Hah, I love 40k community. Such a funny bunch that's never pleased...

"6th ed is the worst!" "Fix 6th ed, it's unplayable!" "They should change 6th ed asap!" "They should quickly move onto next edition to address all those flaws ASAP like a hotfix"

[BAM, rumours of 7th ed nearing.]

"6th ed is so young, y you change so soon!" "6th ed ain't that bad! Y you do this?!" "Why change ed, we guna starve!" "How can they release a new edition so soon, money grabbing! Scam! Malarky!"

People whined that it needs fixing, now they whine that it's getting fixed with a supposed new book. Seriously, guys, get your gak together..! GW is not going to magically print a fix-it-all uber errata as they have a policy of not changing the content of the BRB (and for a good reason, you can't just patch a printed book so many people bought), so releasing next edition so soon looks like a fine way to fix all the bad things.. and yet now people whine about having to buy just one book after few years. Isn't that kinda stupid of them?


Also whining about the price is kinda ridiculous, because no other rulebook is even close to the BRB in terms of quality or effort. I'm not saying that it's worth it's very high price, but it's definetely better than anything Pants listed in my opinion.

I'd rather pay more and have a great feeling 40k BRB over the Warmachine rulebook which is just meh or a bare ruleset like Mantic ones that are free. I mean.. those 'systems' are more like a placeholder that's just an excuse to make models that can stand in for 40k/WFB miniatures, nothing more. Just pretending to have a system with basic, meh rules that are just enough to float their goats and pretend that they aspire to something more than doing cheap replacements for GW's expensive models.

I'm sorry, but the print quality, paper, durability, editing, layout and design of 40k BRB are just great.

 Klerych wrote:
editing

Now I know you're having a laugh. The editing of the 40K BRB is awful. Any book with a price tag like the 40K BRB shouldn't have basic grammar and spelling mistakes.

For that price tag I expect it to be of the same quality as one of my University Physics textbooks, considering the price is about the same. It is not.

Valuable lesson. A community is composed with multiple people. No matter what you do, people will complain and disagree.

Also I'd disagree with some statements.

For starters, the BRB isn't great in terms of quality or effort. It's unbalanced, it's clunky, it's disorganized, and most of the fluff is just re-released. Heck, if you want a GW book that is quality look at LotR if you can fidn it. Now those are some good rules.

And Warmachine's rules aren't that made. Can't remember which it is but Warmachine or Warmahordes, or both, vastly outtsrip 40k's book for less.

So what did we learn from this? Never lump an entire fanbase into one because shockingly everybody has an opinion and we aren't a hive mind.

I'm mostly a player, but my secret passion is modelling. I take immense enjoyment in piecing together the gorgeous miniatures that GW produces. Now, I collected plastic miniatures of airplanes, ships, what have yous all through my adolescent years, and I've never had so much fun with them as I had collecting and modelling GW miniatures, even if you don't include all the available conversions available to me, and I'm pretty sure I spent less money on GW products through the years than I did on movie tickets or video games, for tenfold the enjoyiment they've granted me.

If you can show me what other tabletop gaming system has such a beautiful miniatures as 40k, I might consider switching, but until I see that for myself, I'm sticking to my gorgeous Eldar/Dark Eldar collection and I will keep collecting them as long as they provide me with the fun I need to deal with all the serious stuff life throws at me.

Could GW be a better company when it comes to dealing with their players? Sure, definitely. But I don't deal with GW, I don't talk to them, I wouldn't even know how bad they are if I wasn't a regular here on DakkaDakka and other gaming sites.

The only question I ask myself when I look at my shelf filled with GW products is whether or not I'm getting my fair share of money spent vs fun gained. And the answer is still a resounding yes. That's the only thing I care about.

 Araenion wrote:
I'm mostly a player, but my secret passion is modelling. I take immense enjoyment in piecing together the gorgeous miniatures that GW produces. Now, I collected plastic miniatures of airplanes, ships, what have yous all through my adolescent years, and I've never had so much fun with them as I had collecting and modelling GW miniatures, even if you don't include all the available conversions available to me, and I'm pretty sure I spent less money on GW products through the years than I did on movie tickets or video games, for tenfold the enjoyiment they've granted me.

If you can show me what other tabletop gaming system has such a beautiful miniatures as 40k, I might consider switching, but until I see that for myself, I'm sticking to my gorgeous Eldar/Dark Eldar collection and I will keep collecting them as long as they provide me with the fun I need to deal with all the serious stuff life throws at me.

Could GW be a better company when it comes to dealing with their players? Sure, definitely. But I don't deal with GW, I don't talk to them, I wouldn't even know how bad they are if I wasn't a regular here on DakkaDakka and other gaming sites.

The only question I ask myself when I look at my shelf filled with GW products is whether or not I'm getting my fair share of money spent vs fun gained. And the answer is still a resounding yes. That's the only thing I care about.

Well first this is a talk about the rule book not the models so your massively off topic.

Second fine cast resin cost them 13 pence a gallon, so if you think we are not being ripped off for what we pay your on something strong and I want a hit or two.

Would anyone else pay double price if the rule book was just the rulebook?

I don't really want a 400 page book that's 80% not rules.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Would anyone else pay double price if the rule book was just the rulebook?

I don't really want a 400 page book that's 80% not rules.

Naw, I wouldn't want to pay 150 dollars for 80 pages . Heck, if they made it less fancy or overly complex it'd probably be even smaller!

What GW won't catch me doing is buying a LE edition ever again.
The Collectors edition of the BRB was very nice, and looks good, but is:
too big to take to clubs,
lacking any additional content over the normal BRB,
not updated with rule changes, which the e- and iBooks are.

So, the basic BRB might be good enough for most, and for me since that mistaken purchase.
Even that's more expensive that it should be, but over 2 years, isn't that bad.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Would anyone else pay double price if the rule book was just the rulebook?

I don't really want a 400 page book that's 80% not rules.

Naw, I wouldn't want to pay 150 dollars for 80 pages . Heck, if they made it less fancy or overly complex it'd probably be even smaller!

I'd pay 250 bucks and love it.

 Yodhrin wrote:
My projects might not be "massive", but they're what I can afford, and GW springing a new edition on us in the middle of their usual cycle means I get to have half a hobby for a few months, paint or play, either or. You of course are perfectly free to give zero feths about my circumstances, or indeed anyone else's, but the fact that your circumstances mean GW's unnecessary behaviour won't affect your enjoyment is not sufficient to make GW's behaviour objectively acceptable and everyone else's experience invalid.

I doubt GW's business model includes catering to people who can ill-afford a 30£ rulebook.

But you would've thought a 30£ rulebook knew the singular form of dice.

Commoragh's Fist wrote:
Hey guys, I know there are plenty of talk regarding the 7th ed rumors, I just wanted to make a point that has stuck out to me. In my humble opinion the BRB isn't a bad entertainment value due to the fact that it only lasted two years.
...
I'd argue we've gotten more hours of enjoyment out of it than most people would in a video game, and in my opinion 75$ for two years of entertainment isn't a bad thing.

The argument is fallacious because you cannot put a price on feeling amused or entertained. It is something within us that is essentially free. Scrunch up a piece of paper and try to throw it in the waste paper basket, instant amusement and costs nothing.

There are plenty of pastimes that don't require expensive paraphernalia, yet keep people entertained for a lifetime. A chess set, for example, can be acquired for small change. The rules are freely available. Many people have dedicated their lives to that game. Compared to chess (which is arguably way more similar to to 40k than a video game) 40k is horrendously expensive. By your logic chess should cost more, because the rules haven't changed for hundreds of years.

The fact is we don't pay for amusement or even the time that we spend amused. What we pay for is the materials and paraphernalia needed to perform our desired activity. In some instances we might share or rent equipment and thus be limited in time or sessions (this is especially true with something very expensive like an indoor ski slope). Other times we buy everything we need, and then we can do our activity as much as we want for free, OR until something is used up/wears out. The later is important because it is really the only situation where time is an issue with things that we own. We can put a price on things like materials and labour costs. That is the best way to judge if we are getting good value, not how long we are able to amuse ourselves.

If you're buying a BRB for the first time then you're getting a combined rulebook and source book. Compared to other books it is still quite expensive. Compared to other rulebooks it's insane. If you own a previous version of the BRB (which most of us do) then all you are really getting is amended rules. In the video game analogy this is more akin to bug fix/patch than a sequel (patches are usually free). Then to top it off... it is incomplete (doesn't work without the codex) and it become obsolete in two years?! That's very close to being 'worn out'.

In summation it is more expensive than other books, wears out much faster, and half the pages are missing! To my mind that is not good value. Even if you can amuse yourself by trying to frisbee it in the bin from a distance after GW makes it worthless again.

Commoragh's Fist wrote:
Hey guys, I know there are plenty of talk regarding the 7th ed rumors, I just wanted to make a point that has stuck out to me. In my humble opinion the BRB isn't a bad entertainment value due to the fact that it only lasted two years. Given that the BRB was roughly the cost of a video game, I'd argue we've gotten more hours of enjoyment out of it than most people would in a video game, and in my opinion 75$ for two years of entertainment isn't a bad thing... I'm really not sure why so many are up in arms about this. Nobody is being forced to purchase this, much like no one is forced into any hobby. I know the rules are pretty much a mandatory purchase for people that want to play with the updated and most current rule set, but 75$ over two years really isn't terrible. It's certainly cheaper than many things, i.e. going to the movies over the course of two years, etc. etc.

I'm not advocating GW at all, and I know the community is upset about a lot of things regarding GW, but the price point over two years hardly seems like good argument to me. Thoughts?

It not just the rules though. You also need the minis which will add to the cost per year considerably. It not like you can just purchase the rule book and be done with it. Furthermore, there is only a very small sliver of pages in the BRB that we need. I myself consider the $75 I spent to be mostly a waste, because I ended up getting the mini rule book which is everything you need in a much more convenient size. As far as the fluff is concerned? Well, older rule books have the same fluff and more interesting layouts (such as 3rd edition).

 Klerych wrote:
Hah, I love 40k community. Such a funny bunch that's never pleased...

"6th ed is the worst!" "Fix 6th ed, it's unplayable!" "They should change 6th ed asap!" "They should quickly move onto next edition to address all those flaws ASAP like a hotfix"

[BAM, rumours of 7th ed nearing.]

"6th ed is so young, y you change so soon!" "6th ed ain't that bad! Y you do this?!" "Why change ed, we guna starve!" "How can they release a new edition so soon, money grabbing! Scam! Malarky!"

People whined that it needs fixing, now they whine that it's getting fixed with a supposed new book. Seriously, guys, get your gak together..! GW is not going to magically print a fix-it-all uber errata as they have a policy of not changing the content of the BRB (and for a good reason, you can't just patch a printed book so many people bought), so releasing next edition so soon looks like a fine way to fix all the bad things.. and yet now people whine about having to buy just one book after few years. Isn't that kinda stupid of them?


Also whining about the price is kinda ridiculous, because no other rulebook is even close to the BRB in terms of quality or effort. I'm not saying that it's worth it's very high price, but it's definetely better than anything Pants listed in my opinion.

I'd rather pay more and have a great feeling 40k BRB over the Warmachine rulebook which is just meh or a bare ruleset like Mantic ones that are free. I mean.. those 'systems' are more like a placeholder that's just an excuse to make models that can stand in for 40k/WFB miniatures, nothing more. Just pretending to have a system with basic, meh rules that are just enough to float their goats and pretend that they aspire to something more than doing cheap replacements for GW's expensive models.

I'm sorry, but the print quality, paper, durability, editing, layout and design of 40k BRB are just great.

You mean the rulebook with piss poor editing that has spelling and grammatical mistakes everywhere? The rulebook which had a long line of the cover art strip away along the spine the day I bought it just from having it open and reading it on my table? The rulebook with the 'great layout' that has all the psyker tables at the back of the book separated by hundreds of pages from the rest of the rules? The rulebook which has far more ambiguity than any of the other rulebooks you just mentioned?

THAT rulebook? Oh yeah. Way better quality.

I want to chime in that the BRB proboly is a bad value for most people. There reason is the people expected to get more life out of that BRB before it a new revision is needed.

Having set that, I think its a also a fallacy to expect rulebooks to have a certain useful life before needing replacement. Anything, if done badly can and should be replaced as soon as possible. Window Vista doesn't have to wait 5 years prior to Windows 7. The 2012 Honda Civc only waited 1 year for a new facelift that usually arrives after 3.

The take home idea is that you pay what you get for, don't attach certain expectiations of it. If you think you are being ripped off, become a smarter buyer! Don't buy the BRB on day 1, don't buy the collector ed, buy the minirule book in 3 months.

I for one will be buying this new BRB (my first BRB). I never owned any of the previous becuase I know it will become obsilete in a few years. I want this one in particular because I feel after this ed we will not be seeing another BRB again or my interest for 40K will finally died out completly. I want a nice thick BRB with fluff and new models as a farewell token to 40K. hence I'm acturally looking forward to this upcoming release.

So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!

They are the mere lowest common denominator everyone has to buy when playing the game. Models can be proxied, converted and scratch-built but books can't. The high price is what keeps me, personally, from buying more of them though. I would love to buy Fall of Orpheus, but at that ridiculous price tag, I stick to the rule pages.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!

They are the mere lowest common denominator everyone has to buy when playing the game. Models can be proxied, converted and scratch-built but books can't. The high price is what keeps me, personally, from buying more of them though. I would love to buy Fall of Orpheus, but at that ridiculous price tag, I stick to the rule pages.

Actually that was a reply to daedalus' post about books more expensive than the BRB.
Two pages back.


I'm not sure what happened.


(I was talking about college textbooks)

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!

Because they are proof-read, well edited and extensively researched.

Also because everyone knows students are rich

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!

Because they are proof-read, well edited and extensively researched.

Also because everyone knows students are rich

Oh god, the errors. So many errors.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!

Because they are proof-read, well edited and extensively researched.

Also because everyone knows students are rich

Oh god, the errors. So many errors.

BRB or your textbooks? What subject is it for?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!

Because they are proof-read, well edited and extensively researched.

Also because everyone knows students are rich

Oh god, the errors. So many errors.

BRB or your textbooks? What subject is it for?

Chemistry.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Chemistry.

A proper subject, well done

Quicker editions and pricier core rulebooks are only going to alienate fringe players. At some point, we all look at a new edition, and realize how little we'll likely get out of it.

It's all matters of degree, but I'm not sure if I'll drop $100 on a new rulebook, for the same reason the OP would: I haven't gotten that much fun out of it!

I'll probably wait and see if the new rulebook is actually a new rulebook or the full compendium of 6th edition before I make any decisions. As much as I love the full size book with all it's lovely fluff and pretty pictures, the smaller book is just so much more practical (and cheaper) and it is much easier to take with me (and cheaper). Did I mention it was also cheaper?

Good value or no? That's subjective. (Though I'm leaning on value for the money if you play a lot.)
I personally don't believe this "7th ed" is going to be a new edition, just a consolidation of other books in one.
But.
If a game is going to change its rules with new editions every two years, that's just annoying and if you told me "Hey, get into Warhammer 40k, because we get editions every two years!" I'd tell you no thanks.

hobojebus wrote:


Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (from Wikipedia because i'm too lazy to write it myself)

Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole, of course there are more expensive books such as The First Book of Urizen, William Blake which sold for millions, or the Gutenberg bible.
.

It's 'have', not 'of'. Also, 'I' should be a capital. Personally I wouldn't mention language techniques without making sure my post was grammatically correct..

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

hobojebus wrote:


Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (from Wikipedia because i'm too lazy to write it myself)

Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole, of course there are more expensive books such as The First Book of Urizen, William Blake which sold for millions, or the Gutenberg bible.
.

It's 'have', not 'of'. Also, 'I' should be a capital. Personally I wouldn't mention language techniques without making sure my post was grammatically correct..

Exalted.

I only played 5 games with the 6th ed book and swiched back to our old and trusty 3rd 4th and 5th BRBs. I did not get my $70 worth out of the book. Unless I see HUGE posts of how great and/or how much more "fixed" 7th ed is, I will not be buying it.

Wasn't upset at all about the idea of a new BRB. I got more than my money's worth out of it. No big deal at all to me.