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To be fair IK are an entirely different beast (pseudo-apoc machines)

As per War Walkers it probably is due to them being low priced AND not oriented to CC. A lot of the walkers are geared to be equal or somewhat built for CC which is where they start to suffer it seems.

Pardon the caps but

EVERYTHING GEARED FOR CC IS BAD IN 6TH.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Pardon the caps but

EVERYTHING GEARED FOR CC IS BAD IN 6TH.

Well except Flesh Hounds, Spawn, the Juggerlord, extremely kitted out Princes (that risk being too costly), and GLORIOUS LORD OF CHANGE BOOMSTICKS! (last isn't built for CC but I always find it too funny to not mention)

 Vaktathi wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Yup. Okay, how about this. Walkers gain the Fast USR so that they aren't foot slogging as much.

As I said, Walkers should have hammer of wrath and smash if Monstrous Creatures can have it for free.

Hammer of Wrath I can agree with but not Smash. Smash should only be for really big walkers like the Imperial Knight or what the Riptide should be. I think having them be fast would at least have them be better suited towards their intended battlefield role as close quarter battle units.

Walkers should also have MTC.

Given that the Imperial Knight sports a D strength melee weapon, and the Riptide is a Monstrous Creature, that would seem to be take it out of the picture completely then wouldn't it?

If a T5 Daemon Prince can smash, I'd say a Forgefiend that's half again as tall, with half again as many limbs, and is probably 4x the mass should probably be able to Smash (though if we're really looking at it, they really should be MC's in the first place, moreso than something like a Riptide which has an actual cockpit and pilot).

I was speaking about a sparkly, sweet sugar gum drop world where Riptides were walkers. In such fantasy realm they should have Smash if it were to be restricted to the bigger doods. I agree that Maulerfiends/Forge Fiends shouldn't be walkers but I don't think MC really suits them. Perhaps a new type of unit is in order?

 StarTrotter wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Pardon the caps but

EVERYTHING GEARED FOR CC IS BAD IN 6TH.

Well except Flesh Hounds, Spawn, the Juggerlord, extremely kitted out Princes (that risk being too costly), and GLORIOUS LORD OF CHANGE BOOMSTICKS! (last isn't built for CC but I always find it too funny to not mention)

Ok, everything except Daemons.

I'm a Tyranid player, so I'm used to automatically discounting any purely CC unit as terrible.

So yeah, if you're only looking at stuff like dreadnoughts walkers seem bad, but the same can be said of only looking at Genestealers and thinking Infantry are bad and only looking at Dark Angels Flyers makes Flyers look bad.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Pardon the caps but

EVERYTHING GEARED FOR CC IS BAD IN 6TH.

Well except Flesh Hounds, Spawn, the Juggerlord, extremely kitted out Princes (that risk being too costly), and GLORIOUS LORD OF CHANGE BOOMSTICKS! (last isn't built for CC but I always find it too funny to not mention)

Ok, everything except Daemons.

I'm a Tyranid player, so I'm used to automatically discounting any purely CC unit as terrible.

So yeah, if you're only looking at stuff like dreadnoughts walkers seem bad, but the same can be said of only looking at Genestealers and thinking Infantry are bad and only looking at Dark Angels Flyers makes Flyers look bad.

Please don't remind me of how bad the Tyranid codex is. Please don't. (I already have enough of a grudge for basically all but spawn, the juggerlord, and a 300 point daemon prince being entirely bad ideas of CC in chaos space marines, the Tyranid codex makes me rage to no end. Hell, the chaos daemon codex has quite a couple dud CC units and it's the closest we have to a good CC army)

 StarTrotter wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Pardon the caps but

EVERYTHING GEARED FOR CC IS BAD IN 6TH.

Well except Flesh Hounds, Spawn, the Juggerlord, extremely kitted out Princes (that risk being too costly), and GLORIOUS LORD OF CHANGE BOOMSTICKS! (last isn't built for CC but I always find it too funny to not mention)

Ok, everything except Daemons.

I'm a Tyranid player, so I'm used to automatically discounting any purely CC unit as terrible.

So yeah, if you're only looking at stuff like dreadnoughts walkers seem bad, but the same can be said of only looking at Genestealers and thinking Infantry are bad and only looking at Dark Angels Flyers makes Flyers look bad.

Please don't remind me of how bad the Tyranid codex is. Please don't. (I already have enough of a grudge for basically all but spawn, the juggerlord, and a 300 point daemon prince being entirely bad ideas of CC in chaos space marines, the Tyranid codex makes me rage to no end. Hell, the chaos daemon codex has quite a couple dud CC units and it's the closest we have to a good CC army)

Chaos Furies are a strong runner up for the worst unit in the game due to a statline even a grot would laugh at.

Leadership 2 on a model with such bad stats? Come on GW.

 Kain wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Pardon the caps but

EVERYTHING GEARED FOR CC IS BAD IN 6TH.

Well except Flesh Hounds, Spawn, the Juggerlord, extremely kitted out Princes (that risk being too costly), and GLORIOUS LORD OF CHANGE BOOMSTICKS! (last isn't built for CC but I always find it too funny to not mention)

Ok, everything except Daemons.

I'm a Tyranid player, so I'm used to automatically discounting any purely CC unit as terrible.

So yeah, if you're only looking at stuff like dreadnoughts walkers seem bad, but the same can be said of only looking at Genestealers and thinking Infantry are bad and only looking at Dark Angels Flyers makes Flyers look bad.

Please don't remind me of how bad the Tyranid codex is. Please don't. (I already have enough of a grudge for basically all but spawn, the juggerlord, and a 300 point daemon prince being entirely bad ideas of CC in chaos space marines, the Tyranid codex makes me rage to no end. Hell, the chaos daemon codex has quite a couple dud CC units and it's the closest we have to a good CC army)

Chaos Furies are a strong runner up for the worst unit in the game due to a statline even a grot would laugh at.

Leadership 2 on a model with such bad stats? Come on GW.

Still not as bad as the pyrovore . What's that? They are the worst unit in the game? All right guys let's remove their DS option making the one good thing they can do not exist! Chaos Furies can't be a Chariot of Tzeentch though. Who was the genius that made that thing?

As per furies, yeah, they are bad. Maybe not as bad as nurglings though . Still, I've had some fun with slaaneshi furies even if they basically suck.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Pardon the caps but

EVERYTHING GEARED FOR CC IS BAD IN 6TH.

Well except Flesh Hounds, Spawn, the Juggerlord, extremely kitted out Princes (that risk being too costly), and GLORIOUS LORD OF CHANGE BOOMSTICKS! (last isn't built for CC but I always find it too funny to not mention)

Ok, everything except Daemons.

I'm a Tyranid player, so I'm used to automatically discounting any purely CC unit as terrible.

So yeah, if you're only looking at stuff like dreadnoughts walkers seem bad, but the same can be said of only looking at Genestealers and thinking Infantry are bad and only looking at Dark Angels Flyers makes Flyers look bad.

Please don't remind me of how bad the Tyranid codex is. Please don't. (I already have enough of a grudge for basically all but spawn, the juggerlord, and a 300 point daemon prince being entirely bad ideas of CC in chaos space marines, the Tyranid codex makes me rage to no end. Hell, the chaos daemon codex has quite a couple dud CC units and it's the closest we have to a good CC army)

Chaos Furies are a strong runner up for the worst unit in the game due to a statline even a grot would laugh at.

Leadership 2 on a model with such bad stats? Come on GW.

Still not as bad as the pyrovore . What's that? They are the worst unit in the game? All right guys let's remove their DS option making the one good thing they can do not exist! Chaos Furies can't be a Chariot of Tzeentch though. Who was the genius that made that thing?

As per furies, yeah, they are bad. Maybe not as bad as nurglings though . Still, I've had some fun with slaaneshi furies even if they basically suck.

Marked furies?

INVERSE HERESY!

The thing that annoys me the most?

Riptide: 3A

Helbrute: 2A

Dreadnought: 2A

Maulerfiend: 2A

WHO THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA. They are partially meant to be in melee but the Walkers actually are pretty bad in melee due to lack of hits!

Riptide 3A
All these other CC oriented units only getting 2A (honestly we retconned this to claim that they have two weapons so they get 3A and we still are thinking of rising this a bit more). Yeah it's stupid. It's just not enough to make a dent in anything. Can't kill enough elite units, not enough cheap units, certainly not a MC. Their only real hope is weathering a turn of assaults and hoping they either get lucky and sweep or are fighting a DP and insta-death it.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Riptide 3A
All these other CC oriented units only getting 2A (honestly we retconned this to claim that they have two weapons so they get 3A and we still are thinking of rising this a bit more). Yeah it's stupid. It's just not enough to make a dent in anything. Can't kill enough elite units, not enough cheap units, certainly not a MC. Their only real hope is weathering a turn of assaults and hoping they either get lucky and sweep or are fighting a DP and insta-death it.

You know what I hope? They get like 'blast' attacks, where each attack the walker gets is now a blast template. Kinda like some primarch weapons in 30k. This way you can potentially hit 1-4 units in b2b combat, maybe with a rule like strikedown and the like as well.

They should not be the equivalent to 3rd edition Terminator honors! It made sense back then, it's worthless now as price points keep dropping! I mean I know the reason, it just doesn't hold water gameplay wise.

The main thing that annoys me about this is how blatant it is. The GW design logic of "we want this to be better, let's give it Monstrous Creature rules even though it's a big robot" makes about as much sense as "Land Raiders are tough, and flyers are tough because of Snapfiring. Land Raiders are flyers now". Let's make Marneus Calgar a Superheavy Walker because why not?

Walkers got nerfed in 6th while MCs got buffed. They really do need to get Smash, at the very least. Also possibly have Hit and Run and a change to the Walker rules so that units can be locked in combat with a Walker. I am in favour of giving vehicles armour saves.

Wait hwo would smash really help Walkers though? It wouldn't really help most walkers as they tend to come with weapons that make them S10 anyways. Wait units don't get locked into combat with a walker?

AP2 and re-rolling armour penetration without it being dependent on the weapon. It's not a huge help, but it's something. It's also a start for allowing things like the Wraithknight to use Walker rules.

Yes, they can be locked in combat. I really don't know why I thought they couldn't. They should get Hit and Run, though (unless they were to be buffed enough to be equal to MCs), and Move Through Cover (the entry in the rulebook even begins with the flavour text "... they have mechanical limbs that allow them to stride forwards, ploughing through densely packed terrain with ease in order to bring their weapons to bear").

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
AP2 and re-rolling armour penetration without it being dependent on the weapon. It's not a huge help, but it's something. It's also a start for allowing things like the Wraithknight to use Walker rules.

Yes, they can be locked in combat. I really don't know why I thought they couldn't. They should get Hit and Run, though (unless they were to be buffed enough to be equal to MCs), and Move Through Cover (the entry in the rulebook even begins with the flavour text "... they have mechanical limbs that allow them to stride forwards, ploughing through densely packed terrain with ease in order to bring their weapons to bear").

Eldar wraith units have been MCs for a very long time.

Riptides could be walkers, but Eldar wraith units and Giant Necron Canopteks should remain MCs.

Dreadnoughts have two problems: rules changes and meta.

Rules changes, 6th edition made it both very easy to hit Walkers with grenades, and very easy to wither hullpoints from vehicles. In previous editions, Walkers were valuable tarpits since even if glanced, they were often hard to kill by most units. However, nowadays they die from 3 glances so that's a big nerf.

Meta, starting from 5th edition Space Wolves codex, points cost of heavy weapons was dramatically dropped. Spamming S7-S8 weapons in large numbers became suddenly much easier, which was bad news for vehicles and especially AV10-AV12 vehicles. Although 5th edition was said to favour vehicles, it favoured them only if present in very large numbers - ie. MSU and cheap transport spam. Dreadnoughts are scarce and relatively expensive vehicles with weak-ish armour protection - not a good place to be!

 Kain wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
AP2 and re-rolling armour penetration without it being dependent on the weapon. It's not a huge help, but it's something. It's also a start for allowing things like the Wraithknight to use Walker rules.

Yes, they can be locked in combat. I really don't know why I thought they couldn't. They should get Hit and Run, though (unless they were to be buffed enough to be equal to MCs), and Move Through Cover (the entry in the rulebook even begins with the flavour text "... they have mechanical limbs that allow them to stride forwards, ploughing through densely packed terrain with ease in order to bring their weapons to bear").

Eldar wraith units have been MCs for a very long time.

Riptides could be walkers, but Eldar wraith units and Giant Necron Canopteks should remain MCs.

I know they have, but eh. I really don't like it, and it being old and established doesn't mean it can't be changed. The problem is that there just isn't a space in the rules for them or Necrons that actually fits. They're not really Walkers or MCs, they're wraith-golem-things and living metal pseudo-robots - they should be immune to Poison and Haywire both, for example. The Wraithknight in particular is questionable, though, because it has a pilot.

I think the best thing would be to introduce types of Walkers, like "Fast Walker", "Heavy Walker", etc, along with "Ghost-thing" (for all Wraith units) and "Robot-thing" (for all Necrons) rules. It would give us categories for the ones that are essentially firing platforms with legs (War Walkers, Sentinels), huge-yet-agile mechs (Wraithknight, Riptide), walking tanks with fists (Dreadnoughts), and anything else (like the Daemon Engines that are essentially robot animals, perhaps). Maybe even a way to turn Crisis Suits into Walkers that doesn't totally break them. Really the "Walker" classification is just too narrow to apply to such a diverse range of things.

I know that striving for realism and attention to detail in rules isn't really going to work, but why does a Dreadknight have "more soul" than a normal Grey Knight for purposes of being fed on by the Doom of Malan'tai? Why can the Doom not feed on a Dreadnought at all? Argh!

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
AP2 and re-rolling armour penetration without it being dependent on the weapon. It's not a huge help, but it's something. It's also a start for allowing things like the Wraithknight to use Walker rules.

Yes, they can be locked in combat. I really don't know why I thought they couldn't. They should get Hit and Run, though (unless they were to be buffed enough to be equal to MCs), and Move Through Cover (the entry in the rulebook even begins with the flavour text "... they have mechanical limbs that allow them to stride forwards, ploughing through densely packed terrain with ease in order to bring their weapons to bear").

Eldar wraith units have been MCs for a very long time.

Riptides could be walkers, but Eldar wraith units and Giant Necron Canopteks should remain MCs.

I know they have, but eh. I really don't like it, and it being old and established doesn't mean it can't be changed. The problem is that there just isn't a space in the rules for them or Necrons that actually fits. They're not really Walkers or MCs, they're wraith-golem-things and living metal pseudo-robots - they should be immune to Poison and Haywire both, for example. The Wraithknight in particular is questionable, though, because it has a pilot.

I think the best thing would be to introduce types of Walkers, like "Fast Walker", "Heavy Walker", etc, along with "Ghost-thing" (for all Wraith units) and "Robot-thing" (for all Necrons) rules. It would give us categories for the ones that are essentially firing platforms with legs (War Walkers, Sentinels), huge-yet-agile mechs (Wraithknight, Riptide), walking tanks with fists (Dreadnoughts), and anything else (like the Daemon Engines that are essentially robot animals, perhaps). Maybe even a way to turn Crisis Suits into Walkers that doesn't totally break them. Really the "Walker" classification is just too narrow to apply to such a diverse range of things.

I know that striving for realism and attention to detail in rules isn't really going to work, but why does a Dreadknight have "more soul" than a normal Grey Knight for purposes of being fed on by the Doom of Malan'tai? Why can the Doom not feed on a Dreadnought at all? Argh!

That would lead to a very large number of very small unit types, so I'm not sure if it's really optimal.

As for the Doom...poor thing isn't fieldable anymore.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The thing that annoys me the most?

Riptide: 3A

Helbrute: 2A

Dreadnought: 2A

Maulerfiend: 2A

WHO THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA. They are partially meant to be in melee but the Walkers actually are pretty bad in melee due to lack of hits!

I get the exact same feeling looking at a Haruspex's Attack stat.

 Kain wrote:
Eldar wraith units have been MCs for a very long time.

Revenant Titans have always been Walkers.

Super-heavy walkers.

Give them all toughness scores and make them Monstrous Creatures.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Super-heavy walkers.

Your point being...?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
Give them all toughness scores and make them Monstrous Creatures.

I think my little Hive Tyrant heart might give out if we got another ridiculously durable super-manoeuvrable mecha with access to the best psychic support in the game all for less points than a Trygon Prime..

And also give them an invulnerable save and psychic powers.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Super-heavy walkers.

Your point being...?

They are quite a bit different.

Oh yes, they're incredibly different from Monstrous Creatures.

Additionally, if they run they should get shrouded as they kick up a bunch of dust. That would be cool.

 Ailaros wrote:
But that's the problem. If you compare them, even at equal cost, walkers still don't do walkery things as well as monstrous creatures, and they're not nearly as good as support vehicles they're put up against.

Sometimes versatility is a very good thing. In the case of walkers, you're just gaining cheaper move-through terrain and a swing or two in close combat, while generally also being less durable and more expensive per-firepower to boot.

The problem is that what you lose in AV, HP, and firepower, you gain in... ... what? Monstrous creatures can smash and sometimes fly and are actually good in close combat, so it's not really the small gain in close combat (specifically, can only be hit on front armor instead of rear) that's going to do it.

My only hope is that given that walkers have been getting no cheaper or more expensive (cf. CSM defiler), while non-walker (and non-flier) vehicles are getting much cheaper (cf. russes), that the idea is that 7th is going to come by and do something to make walkers a lot better.

What I think we could do is make walker completely different from normal vehicles. Give them armor points as opposed to hull points. They don't exist in the pen table. They have an armor save and are tougher to kill due to said armor point being equivalent to a pair of wounds (each save they make is x++). Make them immune to magic they can cast (so no deathstar dreadknights going around face-derping people).

I also think that they should be tough to kill in the case of dreads/brutes. As I recall correctly a naught is supposed to be able to exist in a hostile environment , even a planet undergoing exterminatus (flight of the eisenstein). Explain to me why lascannons can annihilate them to me if that's true?

The walkers all used to have a role.

Dready punched like a baws
Warwalker could shoot
And the sentinel was the mobile one with good armor

This way their roles are found again and you can actually cower in fear when a dread pods behind your adl and starts peddling his fists into your rangers, and laughing as the warwalker braved the frontlines cause his friends were all dead.

Instead of the polar opposite. Now you have people worrying about warwalkers spamming and laugh when a dread is on your friends water bench. Time to fix these walkers!

 Kain wrote:

That would lead to a very large number of very small unit types, so I'm not sure if it's really optimal.

As for the Doom...poor thing isn't fieldable anymore.

I know it's not, but it makes my point. I'm sure there are other powers and stuff that use Wounds to equal "soul tokens" or similar. As for being optimal, that would imply that GW strives for that sort of thing.

 ionusx wrote:

What I think we could do is make walker completely different from normal vehicles.

I approve of this a lot. They're just too different to other vehicles to just get a vague "Vehicle but with the Infantry type" ruleset.

EDIT: While we're at it, it's about time we got some Dreadnought and Chaos Dreadnought special characters. I know there are Forge World ones and Bjorn, but come on - they're supposed to be the most ancient and venerated heroes of the Chapter, and there are hardly any! As for Chaos ones, them all being completely insane because they're bored is stupid, but I don't particularly mind not getting any SCs.

40k already has a crap ton of USR's. You don't need to say "all walkers have blah USR's", you can just give them individually. If you think a Dreadnaught deserves HOW and a War Walker doesn't, just give the Dreadnaught HOW and not the War Walker. No need to give ALL walkers those rules and/or add tons of different types of walkers, just use the USR's we already have.