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Marines, they show up at the last 10 minutes of an imperial guard campaign and take all the credit. Case and point: Armeggedon.

 Troike wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
SoB (equal opportunities bought them here, PC gone mad I say)

What's so inherently wrong with adding some diversity to things? It's nice having some female representation in things. Besides, they're not defined by their gender, they bring more than that to the fluff and the game.

I knew someone would jump in with their bleeding heart (zing). I think it's a poor way to implement the 'all female army in space' is all. Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people. What exaclty do they bring to the setting? Ravenous zealots? Oh yeah we didn't have those before. Weird organ tanks? I guess so, but iGuard could have had those just as easily. Um, fleur-de-lys, sure, Bretonnia in space. Neat. "Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific? But yeah, keep jumping to conclusions like the following:

I'm not sure if arguing with sexists is the best thing to do. Especially when they're wrong about an Army's origins.

Which I've reported for slander.

 Kain wrote:

 Troike wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
SoB (equal opportunities bought them here, PC gone mad I say)

What's so inherently wrong with adding some diversity to things? It's nice having some female representation in things. Besides, they're not defined by their gender, they bring more than that to the fluff and the game.

I'm not sure if arguing with sexists is the best thing to do. Especially when they're wrong about an Army's origins.

An amazing number of the youngest players see Sisters as female (and thus "logically" weaker in all senses) Space Marines.

I don´t think it is their fault. Look at the current state of both armies and imagine how it looks for a new player who does not know much of the background or of the history of the game: the Sisters look as an afterthought made in the name of political correctness. No more and no less. And they will stay there until a proper Codex is released.

The fact that this is not a top priority in GW speaks volumes about how far have they strayed from reality. In its current iteration the setting, unless you really delve into it, reeks of sexism (and racism, and other things). And that´s bad, for many important reasons.

 Redbeard wrote:
(...) It's not like all the other races don't make tentative alliances when under greater threat.(...)

Until quite recently, they sort of didn´t. The enemy of my enemy was still a zombie robot working for a vampire god, a psychotic monster that enjoy and even reproduce through brutality, a traitor that will never be redeemed, a demon or just a dirty xeno that must die at all costs. And the Imperium was utterly brutal and xenophobic to stupid levels, starting with the marines.

Don´t you remember the reactions to the Necron & BA affair? What about the turning of all Marines into "Reasonable Marines"?

I'm sure the sisters would look less like an afterthought if they weren't an afterthought. Heck, even when they were initially there, it was probably just an afterthought that was only tacked on there because Dune had them. It took a guy at GW who actually cared about them as an army to give them any status whatsoever and that didn't really last very long, and that guy felt bad for them when he left GW cause in his words, no one else there really cared about them.

Admittingly, I could have my facts wrong but that's what I remembered.

In this regards, they weren't shoehorned into the setting because they're female. They were shoehorned in because Dune had them. And to this day they're still mostly an afterthought. Far as I can tell, anyways.

I'd like to say they have potential, but honestly what fluff exists for them (IE, their really really REALLY strict and regulated upbringing) really only allows a minor amount of customization compared to the sheer variety of space marine chapters, chaos followers, necron dynasties, and whatever else. As I've stated before, they don't even get separate haircuts.

MarsNZ wrote:
What other faction is that gender specific?

Every variety and flavor of Space Marines.

MarsNZ wrote:Which I've reported for slander.

If it quacks like a duck...

Chaos Space Marines. They think a guy who had his soul destroyed 10,000 years ago is the true emperor, so feth them.

 Psienesis wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
What other faction is that gender specific?

Every variety and flavor of Space Marines.

Which was also a pretty dumb move, IMHO. In this case, two wrongs don't make a right.

(more than two wrongs when you consider the lack of female models or characters in the Imperial Guard. Or Inquisitor female models. Or... any female models besides Eldar and scantily clad Dark Eldar)

MarsNZ wrote:

I knew someone would jump in with their bleeding heart (zing). I think it's a poor way to implement the 'all female army in space' is all. Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people. What exaclty do they bring to the setting?

They were not an implementation of "female army in space". They were taken from another setting, Dune, together with the God Emperor, the Navigators and more stuff. They were the "zealot" part of the setting, worshipping the God Emperor. At the time, Marines were normal human ex-convicts, brain-washed into killing machines to serve an Emperor they didn´t see as a god.

Eventually, Marines and other armies got stuff from the Sisters so now Sisters seem lacking a distinctive theme.

Ravenous zealots? Oh yeah we didn't have those before.

Bingo! We didn´t have those before. You keep talking as if the Sisters were new. They are from the first edition.

Weird organ tanks? I guess so, but iGuard could have had those just as easily. Um, fleur-de-lys, sure, Bretonnia in space. Neat.

Faith as a weapon. The Emperor as a true god. Miracles and saints dark age - style. Angels. Joan of Arc. The Exorcist tank and the Penitent Engine are examples of how unique the look of the army is.

Stuff that is no longer only applied to them: Cleansing fire & burning heretics. Conducting purity searches throughout the Imperium. Christian and medieval iconography. The "gothic" feeling in the setting.

"Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific?

Comissars -> Male since 6th. One of many minor changes people do not notice.
Imperial Knights -> All drivers are male. Since 6th. Another change.
Space Marines -> All male since second I think. I had some references to female marines but was never able to trace the source. This is a tricky one, because half the factions are marines, one way or another.
I am pretty sure I am missing some...


As I said, I don´t think you are sexist, but I do believe you are jumping to conclussions regarding the Sisters. They brought a lot of things to the setting when they were introduced, long time ago. They just haven´t been properly updated. And they look awful and unappealing right now, that´s for sure.

 sing your life wrote:
Chaos Space Marines. They think a guy who had his soul destroyed 10,000 years ago is the true emperor, so feth them.

Most Chaos Marines don't give a crap about Horus and many that do (but not all. Just most) were hunted down by Abaddon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 da001 wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

I knew someone would jump in with their bleeding heart (zing). I think it's a poor way to implement the 'all female army in space' is all. Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people. What exaclty do they bring to the setting?

They were not an implementation of "female army in space". They were taken from another setting, Dune, together with the God Emperor, the Navigators and more stuff. They were the "zealot" part of the setting, worshipping the God Emperor. At the time, Marines were normal human ex-convicts, brain-washed into killing machines to serve an Emperor they didn´t see as a god.

Eventually, Marines and other armies got stuff from the Sisters so now Sisters seem lacking a distinctive theme.

One major problem is that as marines (and every faction, really) expanded to give the players more customization options, sisters... didn't. The only other faction to remain so one-dimensional is Tyrannids, and in that case it's at least VERY clearly on purpose to represent their original alien nature.

Today we have religious marines, reasonable marines, ass hole marines, mechanicum marines, stealthy marines, shark marines, dying marines, morbid marines, marines created at the request of chapter masters, mutant marines, wolf Viking marines, vampire marines, secretive marines, etc etc etc.

And then we have... sisters.

The same applies to pretty much every army besides Tyrannids. Even Necrons had their fluff changed to make them more expansive. Sisters... didn't.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Chaos Space Marines. They think a guy who had his soul destroyed 10,000 years ago is the true emperor, so feth them.

Most Chaos Marines don't give a crap about Horus and many that do (but not all. Just most) were hunted down by Abaddon.

Expect, one of the factions most famous quotes is "death to the false emperor!"

 da001 wrote:

"Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific?

Comissars -> Male since 6th. One of many minor changes people do not notice.
Imperial Knights -> All drivers are male. Since 6th. Another change.
Space Marines -> All male since second I think. I had some references to female marines but was never able to trace the source. This is a tricky one, because half the factions are marines, one way or another.
I am pretty sure I am missing some...

Commissars: There was a female model. But it was a special event model. This is stupid. Two wrongs do not make a right. (though more female commissars, as well as female everything, exists in Only War. Once again GW's subsidiaries do things better than GW does)

Imperial Knights: There's a female ronin in the novel. But it was just a novel and identified as a special case. Most fans hate this all-male knight aspect. Three wrongs do not make a right. Once again, GW's subsidiaries do things better than GW does.

Space Marines: There was a.... wait, nevermind. At any rate, I went over this above. Fifty wrongs do not make a right.

Forge world even had a female necron. Once again, GW's subsidiaries do things better than GW does.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sing your life wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Chaos Space Marines. They think a guy who had his soul destroyed 10,000 years ago is the true emperor, so feth them.

Most Chaos Marines don't give a crap about Horus and many that do (but not all. Just most) were hunted down by Abaddon.

Expect, one of the factions most famous quotes is "death to the false emperor!"

.....wait, are we talking about Horus or the Emperor? I don't remember anything about Emp's soul being destroyed.

 da001 wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

I knew someone would jump in with their bleeding heart (zing). I think it's a poor way to implement the 'all female army in space' is all. Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people. What exaclty do they bring to the setting?

They were not an implementation of "female army in space". They were taken from another setting, Dune, together with the God Emperor, the Navigators and more stuff. They were the "zealot" part of the setting, worshipping the God Emperor. At the time, Marines were normal human ex-convicts, brain-washed into killing machines to serve an Emperor they didn´t see as a god.

Eventually, Marines and other armies got stuff from the Sisters so now Sisters seem lacking a distinctive theme.

Ravenous zealots? Oh yeah we didn't have those before.

Bingo! We didn´t have those before. You keep talking as if the Sisters were new. They are from the first edition.

Weird organ tanks? I guess so, but iGuard could have had those just as easily. Um, fleur-de-lys, sure, Bretonnia in space. Neat.

Faith as a weapon. The Emperor as a true god. Miracles and saints dark age - style. Angels. Joan of Arc. The Exorcist tank and the Penitent Engine are examples of how unique the look of the army is.

Stuff that is no longer only applied to them: Cleansing fire & burning heretics. Conducting purity searches throughout the Imperium. Christian and medieval iconography. The "gothic" feeling in the setting.

"Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific?

Comissars -> Male since 6th. One of many minor changes people do not notice.
Imperial Knights -> All drivers are male. Since 6th. Another change.
Space Marines -> All male since second I think. I had some references to female marines but was never able to trace the source. This is a tricky one, because half the factions are marines, one way or another.
I am pretty sure I am missing some...


As I said, I don´t think you are sexist, but I do believe you are jumping to conclussions regarding the Sisters. They brought a lot of things to the setting when they were introduced, long time ago. They just haven´t been properly updated. And they look awful and unappealing right now, that´s for sure.

Wait, they retconned female commissars who we know to exist?

Lame.

 Kain wrote:

Wait, they retconned female commissars who we know to exist?

Lame.

Did they really do that? Again, even Only War has them. If GW went out of their way to state they were all-male in the latest guard codex, then that's just... lame.

....well, even if the Sisters of Battle weren't shoehorned in because they're female (again, I believe they were shoehorned in because of Dune), GW is clearly sexist.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 da001 wrote:

"Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific?

Comissars -> Male since 6th. One of many minor changes people do not notice.
Imperial Knights -> All drivers are male. Since 6th. Another change.
Space Marines -> All male since second I think. I had some references to female marines but was never able to trace the source. This is a tricky one, because half the factions are marines, one way or another.
I am pretty sure I am missing some...

Commissars: There was a female model. But it was a special event model. This is stupid. Two wrongs do not make a right. (though more female commissars, as well as female everything, exists in Only War. Once again GW's subsidiaries do things better than GW does)

Imperial Knights: There's a female model in the novel. But it was just a novel and identified as a special case. Most fans hate this all-male knight aspect. Three wrongs do not make a right. Once again, GW's subsidiaries do things better than GW does.

Space Marines: There was a.... wait, nevermind. At any rate, I went over this above. Fifty wrongs do not make a right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sing your life wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Chaos Space Marines. They think a guy who had his soul destroyed 10,000 years ago is the true emperor, so feth them.

Most Chaos Marines don't give a crap about Horus and many that do (but not all. Just most) were hunted down by Abaddon.

Expect, one of the factions most famous quotes is "death to the false emperor!"

.....wait, are we talking about Horus or the Emperor? I don't remember anything about Emp's soul being destroyed.

Emp destroyed Horus's soul and yet CSM say the emperor is false and Horus is the true emperor despite his deadness.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Wait, they retconned female commissars who we know to exist?

Lame.

Did they really do that? Again, even Only War has them. If GW went out of their way to state they were all-male in the latest guard codex, then that's just... lame.

....well, even if the Sisters of Battle weren't shoehorned in because they're female (again, I believe they were shoehorned in because of Dune), GW is clearly sexist.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only sausages.

 sing your life wrote:


Emp destroyed Horus's soul and yet CSM say the emperor is false and Horus is the true emperor despite his deadness.

Do they really say Horus is the true Emperor? I thought they only said Emps was the false Emperor, with no mention of Horus. A lot of Chaos Marines stopped being loyal to Horus even DURING the Heresy (Night Lords never really cared about him, Angron hated him, Emperoro's Children stopped caring about him, the Alpha Legion got Horus pissed off and when he yelled at them, Alpharus basically THREATENED him and gave him the finger, etc)

And then after the Heresy Abaddon slapped around a lot of the remaining Horus lovers and destroyed the body, and then changed the name of the Legion so there'd be no more Horus in the name. Then proclaimed Horus was a fool.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 sing your life wrote:


Emp destroyed Horus's soul and yet CSM say the emperor is false and Horus is the true emperor despite his deadness.

Do they really say Horus is the true Emperor? I thought they only said Emps was the false Emperor, with no mention of Horus. A lot of Chaos Marines stopped being loyal to Horus even DURING the Heresy (Night Lords never really cared about him, Angron hated him, Emperoro's Children stopped caring about him, the Alpha Legion got Horus pissed off and when he yelled at them, Alpharus basically THREATENED him and gave him the finger, etc)

And then after the Heresy Abaddon slapped around a lot of the remaining Horus lovers and destroyed the body, and then changed the name of the Legion so there'd be no more Horus in the name. Then proclaimed Horus was a fool.

Nope, I asked GW staff who CSM thought the true emperor was and they said it was Horus.

 sing your life wrote:

Nope, I asked GW staff who CSM thought the true emperor was and they said it was Horus.

Who they thought the true Emperor WAS, maybe? The past tense, if that's what the GW employee used, could mean they accept their true emperor is dead.

....that's still nonsense though (or more accurately, only "canonically" applies to a small minority, which the Black Legion supplement makes somewhat clear). Again, most Chaos Space Marines clearly don't give a gak anymore about Horus (or never did in the first place)

MarsNZ wrote:
I think it's a poor way to implement the 'all female army in space' is all.

I think it's better than just having some "token female faction". As they are, the Sisters fit in nicely with the Imperium.

MarsNZ wrote:
Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people.

The "boobplate" serves a purpose beyond that. It also fits with the aesthetic of the army, which is heavily high gothic looking.

MarsNZ wrote:
What exaclty do they bring to the setting?

Showing off the Imperium's zeal, being an elite army of normal humans, being an army that's powered by the strength of their faith, a unique aesthetic, more female representation.

MarsNZ wrote:
Ravenous zealots? Oh yeah we didn't have those before.

The Sisters exemplify it it better than anyone else. They serve take show off the heights of the Imperium's zealotry, and distill all of it into a playable army.

MarsNZ wrote:
Weird organ tanks? I guess so, but iGuard could have had those just as easily.

Eh, I disagree. They don't fit with the IG aesthetic so well. Guard tanks are more spartan and to the point.

MarsNZ wrote:
Um, fleur-de-lys, sure, Bretonnia in space. Neat.

Sharing a symbol doesn't really make them "Bretonia in space".

MarsNZ wrote:
"Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific?

Right, but that's not what's really important about the army, it isn't their core characteristic. What's important is their zeal. Their gender doesn't have a major influence on theirn characterisation or fluff (other than their famous loopholery, of course).

We don't look at Space Marine Battle Brothers or Ork bitz and think "oh, the most important thing about these things is that they are men (or a manly fungus in the Ork's case).

TiamatRoar wrote:
One major problem is that as marines (and every faction, really) expanded to give the players more customization options, sisters... didn't. The only other faction to remain so one-dimensional is Tyrannids, and in that case it's at least VERY clearly on purpose to represent their original alien nature.

Today we have religious marines, reasonable marines, ass hole marines, mechanicum marines, stealthy marines, shark marines, dying marines, morbid marines, marines created at the request of chapter masters, mutant marines, wolf Viking marines, vampire marines, secretive marines, etc etc etc.

And then we have... sisters.

The same applies to pretty much every army besides Tyrannids. Even Necrons had their fluff changed to make them more expansive. Sisters... didn't.

I think that might be more by design than you're giving it credit for. The point of Sisters is that they are these very zealous, fanatical warriors. If you take that aspect away, then they're not really Sisters anymore. Other armies don't get affected by it, since they're representative of entire empires or races. Meanwhile, the Sisters have a tighter focus in that they're the holy warriors of the Imperial church. On a related note, the Sisters aren't the only army to have such a tight focus. The GK and SW are really even more specific, as they're single Chapters with very defined fluff that do not have successors.

I think that there'd be some room for expansion with the Sisters, when they (hopefully) recieve further fluff development. Their Major Orders already have some distinct personalities, and that could be developed further. Similarly, Minor Orders are an avenue for new forces.

 Troike wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
One major problem is that as marines (and every faction, really) expanded to give the players more customization options, sisters... didn't. The only other faction to remain so one-dimensional is Tyrannids, and in that case it's at least VERY clearly on purpose to represent their original alien nature.

Today we have religious marines, reasonable marines, ass hole marines, mechanicum marines, stealthy marines, shark marines, dying marines, morbid marines, marines created at the request of chapter masters, mutant marines, wolf Viking marines, vampire marines, secretive marines, etc etc etc.

And then we have... sisters.

The same applies to pretty much every army besides Tyrannids. Even Necrons had their fluff changed to make them more expansive. Sisters... didn't.

I think that might be more by design than you're giving it credit for. The point of Sisters is that they are these very zealous, fanatical warriors. If you take that aspect away, then they're not really Sisters anymore. Other armies don't get affected by it, since they're representative of entire empires or races. Meanwhile, the Sisters have a tighter focus in that they're the holy warriors of the Imperial church. On a related note, the Sisters aren't the only army to have such a tight focus. The GK and SW are really even more specific, as they're single Chapters with very defined fluff that do not have successors.

You see, that's the thing. The sisters are one-dimensional by design. But originally, so were the Space Marines and the Necrons. The Design CHANGED for the Space Marines and the Necrons, but it didn't for the sisters. As long as the sisters' original design remains in place like that, they'll always be extremely narrow in focus. I suppose that might be what lots of people want, and certainly many will throw a fit if it gets changed (like Necrons) but in the end, it will always restrict them and make it very difficult to expand them in various ways. It's not an insurmountable obstacle (be it changing their design or keeping the design and finding ways to expand them in spite of it), but either option is a difficult hurdle to overcome.

Some thoughts about "hating factions" and the line "I knew someone would jump in with their bleeding heart " part. There are still a lot of Sister players and we are prone to jump if the army is attacked. I think it is caused by the fear of seeing the army going the route of other armies, now disappeared. Like the Lost and the Damned or the Zoats. Or my first army, Flesh Eaters.

I think the reason I am unable to hate any race is because I have seen the least popular races being discontinued. And with the races go the players that play them.

The race I hated the most was the Squats. And I felt really sad when they were scratched off, because I lost some players because of it. They stopped playing because their favorite race was... squatted.

Not fun.

Thus, I turned my hate against a specific faction (I am not giving the name) into love of seeing them utterly destroyed.


On the Commissars being all male, it predates 6th (my mistake). This is from pg 33 second edition Codex: SoB:

By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certain direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on these talents and hone the pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organisations. Most of the Progena wiII end up in the Adeptus Terra as scribes, clerks or overseers. However, a few will be assigned to higher positions. Male Progena may become Commissars in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood itself and become a Preacher or Dean (a subordinate to a Deacon). Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum.

I think I saw the same in some of the new stuff on Progena, quite recently, but I am no longer sure. Anyway, since the only way to enter the Commissariat is through the Progena (isn´t it?), and only male Progena can become a Commissar, only male Commissars are possible. Officers and Priests may get the position otherwise.

Female Commissars should exist.

 Troike wrote:
(...)
I think that might be more by design than you're giving it credit for. The point of Sisters is that they are these very zealous, fanatical warriors. If you take that aspect away, then they're not really Sisters anymore. Other armies don't get affected by it, since they're representative of entire empires or races. Meanwhile, the Sisters have a tighter focus in that they're the holy warriors of the Imperial church. On a related note, the Sisters aren't the only army to have such a tight focus. The GK and SW are really even more specific, as they're single Chapters with very defined fluff that do not have successors.

I am with TiamatRoar: if they have not been developed is because nobody in the Studio cared, not because they have a distinctive theme.

And GK and SW are not good examples: they are subfactions. They are marines. They both are developments from a common origin: the Rogue Trader marine.

I think that there'd be some room for expansion with the Sisters, when they (hopefully) recieve further fluff development. Their Major Orders already have some distinct personalities, and that could be developed further. Similarly, Minor Orders are an avenue for new forces.

I really hope they do.

There are lots of room for expansion if you start searching for stuff related with their theme. And the "gothic" look is full of possibilities.

 sing your life wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:

 sing your life wrote:


Emp destroyed Horus's soul and yet CSM say the emperor is false and Horus is the true emperor despite his deadness.

Do they really say Horus is the true Emperor? I thought they only said Emps was the false Emperor, with no mention of Horus. A lot of Chaos Marines stopped being loyal to Horus even DURING the Heresy (Night Lords never really cared about him, Angron hated him, Emperoro's Children stopped caring about him, the Alpha Legion got Horus pissed off and when he yelled at them, Alpharus basically THREATENED him and gave him the finger, etc)

And then after the Heresy Abaddon slapped around a lot of the remaining Horus lovers and destroyed the body, and then changed the name of the Legion so there'd be no more Horus in the name. Then proclaimed Horus was a fool.

Nope, I asked GW staff who CSM thought the true emperor was and they said it was Horus.

Yeah, I am not buying individual staff members' views on this unless you find the actual writers.

The 'False Emperor' was more due to them thinking he was False as a person and leader overall, not that Horus was magically the true Emperor.

da001 wrote:Until quite recently,...

Yeah, whatever. I'm not a newb, I'm just willing to accept that the story is actually better with ancient robotic dynasties with their own internal feuds than the ridiculous necron backstory from 3rd.

...And the Imperium was utterly brutal and xenophobic to stupid levels, starting with the marines.

Here's the thing about extreme xenophobia - it doesn't survive first contact. That's why you have an inquisition running around needing to punish anyone who talks to aliens (and only aliens we don't like, and don't need, because remember, Rogue Traders are allowed to treat with the filthy xenos, and we have jokaero running around with the inquisitors too).

da001 wrote:
Comissars -> Male since 6th. One of many minor changes people do not notice.
Imperial Knights -> All drivers are male. Since 6th. Another change.
Space Marines -> All male since second I think. I had some references to female marines but was never able to trace the source. This is a tricky one, because half the factions are marines, one way or another.

The funny thing about this is that some of us actually have GW female commisar and GW female space marine models. It's one thing to retcon a story where there's really no evidence that things used to be different. Turning the necrons from a race of mindless soulless killers into a race of ancient re-awakened robots with dynastic tendencies didn't actually impact any of the models.

TiamatRoar wrote:
You see, that's the thing. The sisters are one-dimensional by design. But originally, so were the Space Marines and the Necrons. The Design CHANGED for the Space Marines and the Necrons, but it didn't for the sisters. As long as the sisters' original design remains in place like that, they'll always be extremely narrow in focus. I suppose that might be what lots of people want, and certainly many will throw a fit if it gets changed (like Necrons) but in the end, it will always restrict them and make it very difficult to expand them in various ways. It's not an insurmountable obstacle (be it changing their design or keeping the design and finding ways to expand them in spite of it), but either option is a difficult hurdle to overcome.

Well, again, other armies have that sort of tight focus too. When you buy a SW codex, you're only getting fluff about one Space Marine Chapter, after all. Same for the GK (Inquisition aside). So it's not like the Sisters are alone in that regard. The Sisters even have an advantage in that regard, seeing as they have six distinct Major Orders as well as the concept of Minor Orders in there.

Anyway, personally I'd prefer them to not change too much from what they are now, definetely want them to stick to that central theme of extreme zealotry. I think the way forward in this regard without comprising that would be to have Orders fleshed out a bit more, so those differences in temperment, creed and tactics become more apparent. Minor Orders could also be expanded upon to assist with that.

Oh, also, I should note that the Ecclesiarchy are of course in there too. They could be an interesting avenue for expansion to help add some variety to the SoB army.

GK and Space Wolves are basically big fat Space Marine supplements before supplements existed (arguably supplements done right, too. All supplements should introduce new units and big changes to the original parent like they did). They shouldn't be looked at as their own faction, IMHO.

 da001 wrote:


On the Commissars being all male, it predates 6th (my mistake). This is from pg 33 second edition Codex: SoB:

By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certain direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on these talents and hone the pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organisations. Most of the Progena wiII end up in the Adeptus Terra as scribes, clerks or overseers. However, a few will be assigned to higher positions. Male Progena may become Commissars in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood itself and become a Preacher or Dean (a subordinate to a Deacon). Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum.

I think I saw the same in some of the new stuff on Progena, quite recently, but I am no longer sure. Anyway, since the only way to enter the Commissariat is through the Progena (isn´t it?), and only male Progena can become a Commissar, only male Commissars are possible. Officers and Priests may get the position otherwise.

Female Commissars should exist.

So basically instead of GW becoming more sexist by making commissars male-only, they always were sexist because commisars were always male-only. ......well, that doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things, I imagine.

....despite an official GW female commissar model existing (but being limited)

Only War basically spat on that, but like I said, it's just yet another case of a subsidiary doing things better than GW did.

TiamatRoar wrote:
GK and Space Wolves are basically big fat Space Marine supplements before supplements existed (arguably supplements done right, too. All supplements should introduce new units and big changes to the original parent like they did). They shouldn't be looked at as their own faction, IMHO.

 da001 wrote:


On the Commissars being all male, it predates 6th (my mistake). This is from pg 33 second edition Codex: SoB:

By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certain direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on these talents and hone the pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organisations. Most of the Progena wiII end up in the Adeptus Terra as scribes, clerks or overseers. However, a few will be assigned to higher positions. Male Progena may become Commissars in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood itself and become a Preacher or Dean (a subordinate to a Deacon). Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum.

I think I saw the same in some of the new stuff on Progena, quite recently, but I am no longer sure. Anyway, since the only way to enter the Commissariat is through the Progena (isn´t it?), and only male Progena can become a Commissar, only male Commissars are possible. Officers and Priests may get the position otherwise.

Female Commissars should exist.

So basically instead of GW becoming more sexist by making commissars male-only, they always were sexist because commisars were always male-only. ......well, that doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things, I imagine.

....despite an official GW female commissar model existing (but being limited)

Only War basically spat on that, but like I said, it's just yet another case of a subsidiary doing things better than GW did.

GW would do much better with the female demographic if it actually did something to make them feel welcome.

Actually, GW would do better if it did something to make the fanbase feel welcome.

Or at least advertise like any other company.

But yeah, my social justice warrior tendencies are in a very confused place when GW's main universe is very white male dominated.

 da001 wrote:
And GK and SW are not good examples: they are subfactions. They are marines.

They are seperate armies with their own codexes. As I said, if you buy their codexes, you're just getting lots of fluff about that one Chapter (or mostly, in the GK's case. But the Sisters have a similar thing in that the Ecclesiarchy is in their codex too). If you make your own paintscheme or subfaction with them, you're deviating from their fluff.

TiamatRoar wrote:
GK and Space Wolves are basically big fat Space Marine supplements before supplements existed (arguably supplements done right, too. All supplements should introduce new units and big changes to the original parent like they did). They shouldn't be looked at as their own faction, IMHO.

But if you're playing them, you're not playing vanilla SM. You're playing these distinct factions, who have narrower focuses than the SoB.

I think I saw the same in some of the new stuff on Progena, quite recently, but I am no longer sure. Anyway, since the only way to enter the Commissariat is through the Progena (isn´t it?), and only male Progena can become a Commissar, only male Commissars are possible. Officers and Priests may get the position otherwise.

Female Commissars should exist.

They do... in BL. The Commissar-General in Abnett's GG series is a woman.

 Troike wrote:

 da001 wrote:
And GK and SW are not good examples: they are subfactions. They are marines.

They are seperate armies with their own codexes. As I said, if you buy their codexes, you're just getting lots of fluff about that one Chapter (or mostly, in the GK's case. But the Sisters have a similar thing in that the Ecclesiarchy is in their codex too). If you make your own paintscheme or subfaction with them, you're deviating from their fluff.

TiamatRoar wrote:
GK and Space Wolves are basically big fat Space Marine supplements before supplements existed (arguably supplements done right, too. All supplements should introduce new units and big changes to the original parent like they did). They shouldn't be looked at as their own faction, IMHO.

But if you're playing them, you're not playing vanilla SM. You're playing these distinct factions, who have narrower focuses than the SoB.

They are their "own army" in name, only. Fluff-wise and crunch-wise, they're supplements. Really really big and diversified supplements, more so than the actual supplements that would follow, but still supplements in all but name. Thus you won't see Space Wolf supplements because they're already a supplement, even if not officially, and that's fine.

You won't see any SoB supplements, which is lame if they're to be a proper army... well, not until SoB gets more fleshed out as a faction first that's diverse enough to justify a supplement, which is what we're asking for. This is rather putting the cart before the horse though, considering that they aren't even fleshed out enough to get a real codex in the first place (instead of the current mockery of a codex they have).

TiamatRoar wrote:
They are their "own army" in name, only. Fluff-wise and crunch-wise, they're supplements. Really really big and diversified supplements, more so than the actual supplements that would follow, but still supplements in all but name. Thus you won't see Space Wolf supplements because they're already a supplement, even if not officially, and that's fine.

I don't think you're getting my point.

Okay, a person goes out and buys a SW codex and builds a SW army. They are playing SWs, a faction with their own distinct fluff, and a faction in which customisation is limited. They are not playing vanilla Marines, the vanilla Marines are unrelated to this person's SW army in that they are a seperate army with their own codex and fluff. Yes, the SW are Marine variants, but the end effect is the same as with the Sisters: a faction with a tigher focus than most.