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 Psienesis wrote:
(...)
... so their mass migrations have the ability to populate the janitor closets of a starship. Woo. Galaxy-ending threat right there!

Enough to make an army out of them.

Not every single faction need to be a galaxy-ending threat. Look at the Tau, they are like a drop of water in an ocean. That´s part of their charm to me: sometimes I get tired of the "I am the strongest threat ever". Hrud are also found everywhere, which helps the player to create a narrative, and they are strong enough to fend off an entire Legion, or defeat an entire chapter (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_of_Haakonath#.U2KNSfl_vTo)

A quote for the aforementioned entry: "The battle however earned the Star Phantoms the honour of being one of only a handful of Chapters in the Imperium's history to face a full-scale Hrud migration and survive."

Anything able to brutally defeat and nearly destroy a Space Marine chapter thus making the name of the chapter known for being able to survive their attack is a threat big enough to me.


Something completely unrelated: I love Skaven and I will love to see them in 40k... but as Skaven, not as Hrud. Skaven are chaos-related abominations close to beastmen, and Hrud are a xeno species that hate Chaos. They are cool, but they are not Skaven. They lack the cuteness, the sex-appeal and the charm needed to be Skaven. The only thing connecting them is the presence of a tail in some pictures.

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
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from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
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Seattle

Considering that the Hrud-specific article lists the Hrud getting mopped up by the Iron Warriors, the Soul Drinkers, the Ultramarines, the Dark Angels, like 4 different kinds of IG, and the Eldar in a dozen listed engagements, the claim that this one SM Chapter miraculously survived one of their migrations isn't supported by reports of Chapters not surviving such events.

In fact, this appears to be the only time the SM were ever defeated by the Hrud.

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 Psienesis wrote:
Considering that the Hrud-specific article lists the Hrud getting mopped up by the Iron Warriors, the Soul Drinkers, the Ultramarines, the Dark Angels, like 4 different kinds of IG, and the Eldar in a dozen listed engagements, the claim that this one SM Chapter miraculously survived one of their migrations isn't supported by reports of Chapters not surviving such events.

In fact, this appears to be the only time the SM were ever defeated by the Hrud.


The claim was that they survived it ALONE, for what it's worth. Also, it was a "full-scale" migration. I dunno if those other examples you stated were "alone" or not, or were "full scale migrations". ...hell, even my memory could be wrong. But far as I recall, a full scale migration being survived alone only was shown in that one case and is stated to be rare.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/01 21:56:58


 
   
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The Iron Warrior's victory over the Hrud was hardly a glorious success, Perturabo was criticized by one of his own Warsmiths over his decision to attack them in the first place.

 
   
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 Psienesis wrote:
Considering that the Hrud-specific article lists the Hrud getting mopped up by the Iron Warriors, the Soul Drinkers, the Ultramarines, the Dark Angels, like 4 different kinds of IG, and the Eldar in a dozen listed engagements, the claim that this one SM Chapter miraculously survived one of their migrations isn't supported by reports of Chapters not surviving such events.

In fact, this appears to be the only time the SM were ever defeated by the Hrud.

They are a minor faction so they lose battles all the time. If you start hearing about their victories, it is because GW is going to launch a Codex: Hrud. And they didn´t get mopped up by the Iron Warriors during the Great Crusade: that campaign was a total disaster. Not sure of the others, I am not good at Hrud background.

But I will like to quote you again this little bit: "The battle however earned the Star Phantoms the honour of being one of only a handful of Chapters in the Imperium's history to face a full-scale Hrud migration and survive."

In my opinion, that is quite telling: Space Marines are the poster boys. I will try to get a copy of the source (Imperial Armour 10) and see if there is more information....


‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
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Lexicanum wrote:The Imperium of Man first encountered the Hrud as far back as the era of the Great Crusade and during the early era the noisome warrens of these aliens were cleansed by the Emperor according to the Liber Historica Vangelia. During this time, the Iron Warriors Adeptus Astartes were in the midst of a cleansing of Hrud warrens on Gugann.


Doesn't sound like things went too badly for Imperial forces.

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1) The Iron Warriors failed. The Hrud were not cleansed and the Legion took lots of casualties. A Warsmith called Barabas Dantioch, after losing half a grand company, openly stated that it was a waste of time and that the Hrud were just moving from one place to another. This dude appears here and there in the HH books, and the way the Hrud are described, they are anything but weak.
2) "The battle however earned the Star Phantoms the honour of being one of only a handful of Chapters in the Imperium's history to face a full-scale Hrud migration and survive." I am yet to find the context of this little bit, but it is quite telling.

Anyway, not every faction need to be the ultimate threat ever. Hrud appear here and there due to nobody knows, battle with the Imperium or another faction using a rather odd weaponary and combat style, and either are cleansed or they warp space and time until everyone else dies. Seems like a possible faction to me. One of many. I will rather play against a Hrud army than against yet another Space Marine (subfaction X) army. It would be good for a change.

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
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 Psienesis wrote:
Lexicanum wrote:The Imperium of Man first encountered the Hrud as far back as the era of the Great Crusade and during the early era the noisome warrens of these aliens were cleansed by the Emperor according to the Liber Historica Vangelia. During this time, the Iron Warriors Adeptus Astartes were in the midst of a cleansing of Hrud warrens on Gugann.


Doesn't sound like things went too badly for Imperial forces.


That quote is a paraphrasal of two different sources, the former referring to the Emperor himself and presumably the early Crusade, the latter simply referring to what the Iron Warriors were doing when they learn't of their homeworld's rebellion.

This is what the story The Iron Within in the Age of Heresy anthology has to say on the Hrud:
"That is how the great Barabas Dantioch came to be left guarding such a worthless deadrock. Lord Perturabo’s favourite here came to lose Krak Fiorina, Stratopolae and the fortress world of Gholghis to the Vulpa Straits hrud migration."

~

‘The primarch was wrong,’ Dantioch said, shaking his iron mask. ‘The extermination campaign prompted the migration rather than ending it. Perturabo claims the hrud cleansed from the galaxy but, if that is the case, what is quietly wiping out Compliance worlds on the Koranado Drift?’


ADDENDUM:
Horus Heresy Book Three: Extermination, page 117:
For over a year, the Iron Warriors had been involved in the almost single-handed suppression of a major infestation of the xenos 'Hrudd' (or 'Temporarferrox' as they are referred to in certain records) across several worlds of the Sak'trada Deeps. All such actions in the history of the Great Crusade have proved costly both in terms of lives and the sanity of those who must fight against such nightmares, and this was to prove no exception.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/02 01:06:47


 
   
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Nice.

To be honest, I don´t like the look of the Hrud in Xenology and I wouldn´t like the Hrud becoming Skaven. But with a better designed look, they sound to me as a rather cool xeno faction.

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
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I know I'm a bit late to this party, but to all the people who are saying the Hrud aren't a big enough threat to warrant a tabletop army, I would like to point out that there was a major war between the Hrud and the Imperium known as the Hrud Rising. It ended in basically a draw. The Dark Angels did manage to clear two of three sectors (those were just the sectors assigned to the DA, there may have been others) before withdrawing. That sounds like a conflict at least on the scale of the Tau/Imperium border conflict. A Hrud migration also FORCED an Ork Freeboota Klan to move from their position onto an Imperium world wear the Orks had to engage (and lost to) a SM Chapter (the aforementioned Star Phantoms, who in turn got almost wiped out by the Hrud). So the Hrud pummeled the Orks, and then pummeled a SM chapter. Not bad for an aimless mass migration! Eldrad Ulthran also prevented a Hrud infestation of the Saim-Hann craftworld, because he foresaw that the Hrud would have TURNED THE ENTIRE CRAFTWORLD TO ROTTING MULCH. These are all major galactic forces, and the Hrud have gone toe to toe with them.

It's all here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hrud#.U2XFbfldVps

Answering the OP, the reason the Hrud don't get more coverage is the same reason the Chaos Dwarfs got shelved. GW doesn't think they'd be a profitable enough faction to be worth making. Clearly there are people who have a soft spot for the Hrud working at GW though, given how much they keep turning up in the fluff.

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The problem is its not a conscious guided effort on the Hrud's part.

They are no more an army or threat than a massive herd of Buffalo that just trample everything in their path. Granted they're quite nasty creatures, but they'll dissipate just as quick as they grouped together.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
The problem is its not a conscious guided effort on the Hrud's part.

They are no more an army or threat than a massive herd of Buffalo that just trample everything in their path. Granted they're quite nasty creatures, but they'll dissipate just as quick as they grouped together.

Any source to back this up?
They are intelligent creatures. They speak, build weapons, trade, some of them even serve as mercenaries for the Tau.

Perhaps the Imperium cannot find the reasons for their migrations, but sure they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fallinq wrote:
(...)
Answering the OP, the reason the Hrud don't get more coverage is the same reason the Chaos Dwarfs got shelved. GW doesn't think they'd be a profitable enough faction to be worth making. Clearly there are people who have a soft spot for the Hrud working at GW though, given how much they keep turning up in the fluff.

I think it is more about not enough people in the Studio having a soft spot for them. That was the reason behind the Squats squatting, not the profit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/04 12:24:23


‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
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 Grey Templar wrote:
Unfortunately, the Hrud's fluff is self-limiting.

They really are just sentient space rats who occasionally cause some trouble. They don't form anything resembling an army.


Just like Orks then?

 
   
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 da001 wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
The problem is its not a conscious guided effort on the Hrud's part.

They are no more an army or threat than a massive herd of Buffalo that just trample everything in their path. Granted they're quite nasty creatures, but they'll dissipate just as quick as they grouped together.

Any source to back this up?
They are intelligent creatures. They speak, build weapons, trade, some of them even serve as mercenaries for the Tau.

Perhaps the Imperium cannot find the reasons for their migrations, but sure they do.


Yes, they are intelligent. But their migrations are just that, migrations. Not invasions.

They're migrating to find more living space and resources and are dragging their entire communities along with them. Its just a mass of living things without any true military purpose.


Orks may seem to be just a mass of hostile flesh, but they have a, very loose, chain of command, weapon specialization, and all the things that actually make up an army. The Hrud are aimlessly migrating till they hit greener pastures.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
 da001 wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
The problem is its not a conscious guided effort on the Hrud's part.

They are no more an army or threat than a massive herd of Buffalo that just trample everything in their path. Granted they're quite nasty creatures, but they'll dissipate just as quick as they grouped together.

Any source to back this up?
They are intelligent creatures. They speak, build weapons, trade, some of them even serve as mercenaries for the Tau.

Perhaps the Imperium cannot find the reasons for their migrations, but sure they do.


Yes, they are intelligent. But their migrations are just that, migrations. Not invasions.

They're migrating to find more living space and resources and are dragging their entire communities along with them. Its just a mass of living things without any true military purpose.


Orks may seem to be just a mass of hostile flesh, but they have a, very loose, chain of command, weapon specialization, and all the things that actually make up an army. The Hrud are aimlessly migrating till they hit greener pastures.

They're migrating in the same way the Huns migrated from Asia to Europe.

It's still effectively a war with weapons and machinery, but the political and military leaders seem to be one and the same according to what we know of Hrud tribal structures.


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
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Except there isn't, as far as we know, any organized command structure.

The Tribal leaders aren't getting together and saying we need to attack this planet and then this planet. They aren't reporting to a single leader, or even a small group of leaders.

They're just flying by the seat of their metaphorical pants.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
Except there isn't, as far as we know, any organized command structure.

The Tribal leaders aren't getting together and saying we need to attack this planet and then this planet. They aren't reporting to a single leader, or even a small group of leaders.

They're just flying by the seat of their metaphorical pants.


As far as we know, we know nothing.

They could just as easily have some sort of king or queen hidden deep in a home somewhere ordering these migrations. Hrud are not "rampaging buffaloes" like others mentioned they are nomadic, but that shouldn't mean no army for them considering Tau are an army and the Tau could be wiped out by 50 or so Space Marine Chapters or a big hive fleet or hell even a large enough Waaagh!!!!

The only issue with Hrud is no one can decide if they are Space Rats or something else, which resembles a yeti made out of black rope.



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 Grey Templar wrote:
Except there isn't, as far as we know, any organized command structure.

The Tribal leaders aren't getting together and saying we need to attack this planet and then this planet. They aren't reporting to a single leader, or even a small group of leaders.

They're just flying by the seat of their metaphorical pants.

Given that their society is described as having a hierarchy and are described as using tactics, it's easier to assume they have commanders just like any other society than to assume they just up and turn into living locusts every now and then.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
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 Grey Templar wrote:

They're migrating to find more living space and resources and are dragging their entire communities along with them. Its just a mass of living things without any true military purpose.

Orks may seem to be just a mass of hostile flesh, but they have a, very loose, chain of command, weapon specialization, and all the things that actually make up an army. The Hrud are aimlessly migrating till they hit greener pastures.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except there isn't, as far as we know, any organized command structure.

The Tribal leaders aren't getting together and saying we need to attack this planet and then this planet. They aren't reporting to a single leader, or even a small group of leaders.

They're just flying by the seat of their metaphorical pants.

I don´t think the Hrud are the invencible god-like creatures you think they are. They are not all-powerful. They are strong, yes, but not at a completely new level of power, way beyond the Necrons or the Tyranids, which is what you are implying.

They can defeat a full Legion during the Crusade, or a Craftworld Eldar, but not moving "aimlessly" without command structure, a leader or even "true military purpose". You are talking about them as if they were a force of nature that is not even trying to fight. They are defeating the Imperium and the Orks without, according to your words, even trying. The dumber you imagine them, the more powerful they become.

How do you reach to this conclusion?

We know they are intelligent and completely able to trade, serve as mercenaries, travel, use weaponary, and adapt the technology from other races to use as they please. We know they use plasma weaponary, and that they are very good at using the Warp. We know there are tribal leaders, and you mention them. But you negate that these leaders coordinate between them when in war? So you think that a single Tribe defeated the Imperium, the Orks or the entire Iron Warriors Legion? And they did that while fighting without a chain of command? And they were not even trying to wage war? It sounds extremely odd.

If you are right, by getting a single tribe to their empire, the Tau will have a weapon able to destroy any other faction. Imagine: not even trying, and just by moving aimlessly, they defeated a Legion. Moving under the command of a competent leader, they could easily conquer the galaxy.

And you get that amazing information from...?

I think you are jumping at conclussions here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/04 19:59:19


‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
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Where the heck are you getting the idea that I think they're some all powerful force of nature?

I'm just saying they are strong when in large numbers, but not because of any sort of tactical or strategic or technological superiority. They have some good intrinsic powers. That is all.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
Where the heck are you getting the idea that I think they're some all powerful force of nature?

I'm just saying they are strong when in large numbers, but not because of any sort of tactical or strategic or technological superiority. They have some good intrinsic powers. That is all.

You claimed that they defeated a full Legion in their greatest moment "without military purpose", without leaders, without even a military chain, without an army, without even trying. And you are clearly implying that it was a single Tribe, because you said that, while Tribes have leaders, there is not an ulterior chain of command. You compared them to a "a massive herd of Buffalo". Moving "aimlessly", they nearly destroyed an Eldar Craftworld, and defeated many times the Imperium and the Orks.

You say they are "dumb" and that they do all these amazing military feats out of sheer power.

It is just too much power. The more stupid you think they are, the more powerful they need to become to do all the stuff we know they do.

They have been known to serve as mercenaries. If a faction can defeat the Imperium and the Orks without even an army, just out of some form of instinct, yet they can be integrated in another race, then if a single Tribe were to use tactics under, say, Tau command, they could easily conquer the galaxy.

Given that they talk, trade and efficiently develope and use advanced weaponary, I don´t get where you get the idea that they are god-like entities. Instead, I think they just have a powerful army. With leaders and tactics and everything. That will explain their victories without giving them hilariously powerful "powers".

TL;DR: if your supposition is right (lack of leaders, lack of army, lack of aim, acting like a herd), logic says they are stupidly powerful. It is easier to think that your supposition is not right. By the way, you are yet to point a single source regarding this theory of yours.


Another thing I just spotted: they are adept at plasma technology, scavenged weapons and reality-warping technology, yet they lack "weapon specialization, and all the things that actually make up an army"?? How is that even possible? They are quite good at weapons while somehow lacking weapon specialization?

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
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These are proper Hrud, before the fluff got changed:

   
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 da001 wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Where the heck are you getting the idea that I think they're some all powerful force of nature?

I'm just saying they are strong when in large numbers, but not because of any sort of tactical or strategic or technological superiority. They have some good intrinsic powers. That is all.

You claimed that they defeated a full Legion in their greatest moment "without military purpose", without leaders, without even a military chain, without an army, without even trying. And you are clearly implying that it was a single Tribe, because you said that, while Tribes have leaders, there is not an ulterior chain of command. You compared them to a "a massive herd of Buffalo". Moving "aimlessly", they nearly destroyed an Eldar Craftworld, and defeated many times the Imperium and the Orks.

You say they are "dumb" and that they do all these amazing military feats out of sheer power.

It is just too much power. The more stupid you think they are, the more powerful they need to become to do all the stuff we know they do.

They have been known to serve as mercenaries. If a faction can defeat the Imperium and the Orks without even an army, just out of some form of instinct, yet they can be integrated in another race, then if a single Tribe were to use tactics under, say, Tau command, they could easily conquer the galaxy.

Given that they talk, trade and efficiently develope and use advanced weaponary, I don´t get where you get the idea that they are god-like entities. Instead, I think they just have a powerful army. With leaders and tactics and everything. That will explain their victories without giving them hilariously powerful "powers".

TL;DR: if your supposition is right (lack of leaders, lack of army, lack of aim, acting like a herd), logic says they are stupidly powerful. It is easier to think that your supposition is not right. By the way, you are yet to point a single source regarding this theory of yours.


Another thing I just spotted: they are adept at plasma technology, scavenged weapons and reality-warping technology, yet they lack "weapon specialization, and all the things that actually make up an army"?? How is that even possible? They are quite good at weapons while somehow lacking weapon specialization?



Way to miss what I am saying entirely.

They have good weapons, but they aren't an army. "Weapon specialization" means having regiments and military units that are organized with specific purposes. A unit of tanks, anti-tank units, heavy weapon crews, etc...

Just having a hodge podge of those things together can still be powerful if you yourself are moderately powerful(reality warping technology)

You can still defeat an army without yourself being an army, just see guerrilla warfare. But you aren't an army.


Also, don't tell me these don't seem like entities with godlike powers.
From Lexicanum

In 101.M40, a Hrud migration forced an Ork Freeboota Klan from the Edge Void to desperately send their forces at the world of Haakonath where they engaged the Star Phantoms Chapter. The Space Marine forces fought against the Ork attackers and eliminated them thus believing that they had achieved a victory in the defence of their homeworld. However, the Hrud threat began to manifest with a vast temporal-warp rift that was surging into the star system from the outer void. At its vanguard came the massive Hrud migration force that were trapped within the rifts event horizon. Despite putting up a valiant defence, the Star Phantoms ended fighting a lost cause as every Hrud-thing that coalesced from the shadows which was struck down was replaced by another dozen misshapen forms that distorted space with their very presence.


Any organization they have is very simple at best. Not worthy of being called a true army or getting a codex.

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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
(...) Way to miss what I am saying entirely.

They have good weapons, but they aren't an army. "Weapon specialization" means having regiments and military units that are organized with specific purposes. A unit of tanks, anti-tank units, heavy weapon crews, etc...

Just having a hodge podge of those things together can still be powerful if you yourself are moderately powerful(reality warping technology)

You can still defeat an army without yourself being an army, just see guerrilla warfare. But you aren't an army.

I think I got your point. But it just doesn´t make any sense, and you are not providing any source.

We know they have tribes, technology, advanced weaponary and, as you said, good weapons. They are able to face the Imperium, the Eldar or the Orks.

And then you say: "they aren´t an army". Why? What makes you think that they excel at using weapons, yet they lack "regiments and military units that are organized with specific purposes"? How do you know they only use guerrilla warfare? How do you know they lack anti-tank units when one of the few things we know of them is that they defeated the Iron Warriors at their best moment? Don´t you see your theory is... odd, to say something?

Also, it seems you don´t see the implication of your words: if by "moving aimlessly", without even an army, they defeat everything, that means they are hilariously powerful. Imagined what would they do if they were commanded by tactical experts from, say, the Tau.... something we know has already happened.

Also, don't tell me these don't seem like entities with godlike powers.
From Lexicanum

In 101.M40, a Hrud migration forced an Ork Freeboota Klan from the Edge Void to desperately send their forces at the world of Haakonath where they engaged the Star Phantoms Chapter. The Space Marine forces fought against the Ork attackers and eliminated them thus believing that they had achieved a victory in the defence of their homeworld. However, the Hrud threat began to manifest with a vast temporal-warp rift that was surging into the star system from the outer void. At its vanguard came the massive Hrud migration force that were trapped within the rifts event horizon. Despite putting up a valiant defence, the Star Phantoms ended fighting a lost cause as every Hrud-thing that coalesced from the shadows which was struck down was replaced by another dozen misshapen forms that distorted space with their very presence.

We know they have reality-warping technology. And some of them are really scary things when in battle. Others look rather weak. And they like ambushes and darkness. They are also known to be good at plasma, and at using other faction´s technology. And, again, they regularly work as mercenaries. You keep talking of them as if they were just animals without leaders or aim: I don´t get where did you get the idea.

Actually, that sentence sounds to me like some form of Umbra equivalent, used as a biological/warp weapon against the SM. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Umbra#.U2a85Pl_vTo
As you can see, the Umbra are said to be the Shards of a god-like entity (a C´tan?) called Qah, activelly worshipped by the Hrud. Which is why I (as many others) think some Umbra units should be added to any Codex: Hrud.
Any organization they have is very simple at best. Not worthy of being called a true army or getting a codex.
Why? Any reasoning? What do you know of their organization? How?

They are able to defeat a Legion or a Craftworld but they lack an army? Don´t you realize how odd it sounds? This is the basic weapon: "Hrud fusils are a simple symbiosis between melta and plasma technology that are able to fire columns of fire hotter than a star when the mechanism was activated."

And nowadays we have Codexes for 100 SM... A full xeno species which such a powerful and varied army (plasma, reality warpers, umbra, ambushers, technology adapted from other species... ) who has been a well known Xeno threat since the Great Crusade clearly deserves one.

Last thing: Source?
Can you provide any source to back your theory? You keep speaking as if you know something we don´t. I mean you are not even using reasonings like "they lack an army because...". You just say things like "they move aimlessly". They outflanked the Iron Warriors attack moving aimlessly? "they lack weapon specialization" They have lots of different weapons yet somehow do not use weapon specialization?
- > "They defeated a Legion... sounds they have a powerful army"
- > "No they don´t. It just look like that, but I know their organization is very simple at best, not worthy of being called a true army "
- > "Really? Source?"
- > ?

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

Qah is implied to be an old one FYI.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in es
Morphing Obliterator




Elsewhere

 Kain wrote:
Qah is implied to be an old one FYI.

Just out of curiosity, I got my copy of Xenology and found some relevant quotes:

About Hrud religion:
Spoiler:
“Hrud religion is a peculiar subject. Where other races invariably regard their deities with a subconscious distance, the clarity of Hurd mass-memory makes it lightly that their legends are – if not real – then at least based upon real events. They have it that at the dawn of their time their race was created by a pantheon of benevolent gods (the Slah-haii, or ‘most ancient’), who intended them to bask in the sun and be fruitful. All this changed when the deities entered a ruinous war with the Yaam-kheh (‘Mirror Devils’), and were variously slain, crippled or forced to flee. According to the Hrud, only one of their Gods remained: Qah – ‘he who lingers’. This solitary godhead, recognising the danger his beloved children were in, changed the Hrud into the nocturnal scavengers we know today. Curiously, around 500.000 years ago, Qah disappeared, informing the Hrud that he had great works to attend, and that they would be reunited at the time of Raheed-skoh, when the tribes come together to the last battle against the Yaam-kheh”


And this is from the Umbra section:
Spoiler:
“Visited I was by the thirster in the dark, her who dance-moans, her who keeps her secrets breasted, her who came upon me and told and told. Time before she was born, she told, time before all that. Wars in heaven and hell, Star Devils lock horns triumphant and Old Gods killed-away. Killed, she says, all but one. Hid away, he did. Up to his Old Ways, tweaking and dabbling, poking and prodding. She says came a time when he´s done his work, wants to hide and watch, always watching, so into the warp he goes.

Then She´s born in the longears´ brains, see, and she laughs out loud and chops him a million times, and kicks the shards out into the cold. To linger, she says. To linger like always.”


Seems you are right, Qah is hinted to be an Old One.

Interesting: according to this the Eldar fall was 500000 years ago. We recently got a topic about that and this sounded quite logic to me (instead of being near the Dark Age of Technology).

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 da001 wrote:
 Kain wrote:
Qah is implied to be an old one FYI.

Just out of curiosity, I got my copy of Xenology and found some relevant quotes:

About Hrud religion:
Spoiler:
“Hrud religion is a peculiar subject. Where other races invariably regard their deities with a subconscious distance, the clarity of Hurd mass-memory makes it lightly that their legends are – if not real – then at least based upon real events. They have it that at the dawn of their time their race was created by a pantheon of benevolent gods (the Slah-haii, or ‘most ancient’), who intended them to bask in the sun and be fruitful. All this changed when the deities entered a ruinous war with the Yaam-kheh (‘Mirror Devils’), and were variously slain, crippled or forced to flee. According to the Hrud, only one of their Gods remained: Qah – ‘he who lingers’. This solitary godhead, recognising the danger his beloved children were in, changed the Hrud into the nocturnal scavengers we know today. Curiously, around 500.000 years ago, Qah disappeared, informing the Hrud that he had great works to attend, and that they would be reunited at the time of Raheed-skoh, when the tribes come together to the last battle against the Yaam-kheh”


And this is from the Umbra section:
Spoiler:
“Visited I was by the thirster in the dark, her who dance-moans, her who keeps her secrets breasted, her who came upon me and told and told. Time before she was born, she told, time before all that. Wars in heaven and hell, Star Devils lock horns triumphant and Old Gods killed-away. Killed, she says, all but one. Hid away, he did. Up to his Old Ways, tweaking and dabbling, poking and prodding. She says came a time when he´s done his work, wants to hide and watch, always watching, so into the warp he goes.

Then She´s born in the longears´ brains, see, and she laughs out loud and chops him a million times, and kicks the shards out into the cold. To linger, she says. To linger like always.”


Seems you are right, Qah is hinted to be an Old One.

Interesting: according to this the Eldar fall was 500000 years ago. We recently got a topic about that and this sounded quite logic to me (instead of being near the Dark Age of Technology).

Qah must have had a miserable life; being the last of his kind and seeing all his species' former creations degenerate into mockeries of what they had intended.


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in es
Morphing Obliterator




Elsewhere

What really surprises me is that, if this is correct, the Old Ones are referred as if they were gods. I got the impression they were like Lovecraft´s Old Ones. While HPL sometimes referred to gods as Old Ones too, the term was generally used for a quite powerful species that was hinted to be the force behind the creation of the lesser races, including perhaps humanity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Thing

Still, a recent read of Xenology allow me to summarize the book in two sentences:
- The background of this game is utterly amazing, a prodigy of creativity nothing I know can compete with. It is like they took everything from everywhere in fantasy that was cool enough and merged it in a single thing.
- We need more Xenos in the game. Q´Orl, Thyrrus, Umbra, Hrud, Kroot...



‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

The Old Ones are the primogenitors of much of the biological life in the galaxy, and moved between the Warp and Realspace with contemptuous ease. They are very much akin to gods, except not relying on the worship of mortals. Neither are the C'Tan, their rivals, for that matter.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
 
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