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**Manchu**

A Montana couple baited their home for intruders in order to legally shoot them thanks to the state castle doctrine law. They ended up killing a seventeen year old German exchange student.

The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms.

Markus Kaarma has been charged with deliberate murder in the Sunday killing of Diren Dede, 17, of Hamburg.

But he says Montana's self-defence law allowed him to shoot the boy.

Celal Dede said he would not have allowed his son to study in the US had he been aware of the lenient gun laws.

"I didn't think for one night that everyone here can kill somebody just because that person entered his back yard," Mr Dede told the German news agency dpa.

Pressure authorities
Meanwhile, the German consulate in San Francisco has sent a diplomat to help Mr Dede recover his son's body and to meet local law enforcement and prosecutors.

"This is very important to us, and she is there to put pressure on the authorities to investigate thoroughly," consulate spokeswoman Julia Reinhardt said. "We don't have any doubt that this will happen."

The son of a family of Turkish immigrants to Germany, Diren was attending Big Sky High School in Missoula, Montana, for one year as part of an exchange program.

Diren, known in Hamburg for his football skills, had only six weeks left in the programme.

Mr Kaarma, a 29-year-old firefighter, has told investigators his home had twice been hit by burglars, and he told a hair stylist he had waited up at night to shoot intruders, prosecutors said.

On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police.

They set up motion sensors and a video monitor, prosecutors said.

When the sensors went off just after midnight and they saw a man on the monitor screen, Mr Kaarma went outside and fired a shotgun into the garage without warning several times.

It is unclear what the teenager was doing inside in the garage.

Mr Kaarma's lawyer said his client planned to plead not guilty.

The state allows residents to protect their homes with deadly force when they believe they are going to be harmed, said his lawyer, Paul Ryan.

"We know with no question the individual entered the garage," Mr Ryan said. "Kaarma didn't know who he was, his intent or whether he was armed."

He said that there had been a spate of break-ins in the neighbourhood and Mr Kaarma did not think the police were doing anything about them.

'Castle doctrine' defence
The suspect was released on $30,000 (£17,800) bond, and has remained in his home.

Montana's so-called "castle doctrine" law was amended in 2009 to allow deadly force if a homeowner "reasonably believes" an intruder is trying to harm him or her.

Before that, residents could only use such force if the intruder acted in a violent way. The legislation was backed by the US' largest gun lobby, the National Rifle Association (NRA).

State Representative Ellie Hill told the Missoulian newspaper she has proposed legislation to repeal the 2009 amendments to the law.

"What the castle doctrine has done in this country is it has created a culture of gun violence and vigilante justice," Ms Hill, a Democrat who represents Missoula, said.

"And it's created a culture that it's okay to shoot first and ask questions later."

Diren will be buried in Turkey, his family said. His football team in Hamburg, SC Teutonia 1910, played a charity match on Wednesday to help the family pay for the funeral.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27243115

**Platuan4th**

If you're admitting to baiting someone with a purse in an intentionally open garage, you're not "reasonably believing" you're in harm, you're looking to lure someone in to shoot and kill because you want to kill someone. This guy's going to FPYITA Prison and he deserves every minute of it.

**djones520**

Important life lesson. Don't wander into someones garage after midnight if you don't want a buckshot sandwich.

**LordofHats**

Jai alai?

**SagesStone**

Baiting an intruder shouldn't be covered by that law. This is sort of similar to the Zimmerman thing isn't it?

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Platuan4th wrote:
If you're admitting to baiting someone with a purse in an intentionally open garage, you're not "reasonably believing" you're in harm, you're looking to lure someone in to shoot and kill because you want to kill someone.

This.

**Asherian Command**

Manchu wrote:
A Montana couple baited their home for intruders in order to legally shoot them thanks to the state castle doctrine law. They ended up killing a seventeen year old German exchange student.

Thats Horrible.... and completely unjustifiable.

This sounds like a beginning of a serial killer. All he has to do is just use this defense and do the same thing over and over again.

**djones520**

n0t_u wrote:
Baiting an intruder shouldn't be covered by that law. This is sort of similar to the Zimmerman thing isn't it?

No... no it's not.

Baiting someone into your garage and then shooting them is nothing like having your head repeatedly smashed into concrete and then shooting someone.

**LordofHats**

djones520 wrote:

Baiting someone into your garage and then shooting them is nothing like having your head repeatedly smashed into concrete and then shooting someone.

It's only similar to the Zimmerman case in that both this guy and Zimmerman took actions as a result of a string of burglaries that could be considered less than brilliant. The castle law seems kind of clear cut on the legality of 'baiting' burglars so you can shoot them, especially when you have no clear reason to believe the burglar is actually going to do you any harm.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

n0t_u wrote:
Baiting an intruder shouldn't be covered by that law. This is sort of similar to the Zimmerman thing isn't it?

Sure, if you have no clue what happened in the Zimmerman case.

**SagesStone**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
Baiting an intruder shouldn't be covered by that law. This is sort of similar to the Zimmerman thing isn't it?

Sure, if you have no clue what happened in the Zimmerman case.

Seeing that I had to Google it for the name, I'm not really even trusting myself on the comparison.

**daedalus**

I mean, for all you know, the kid was all like, "Oh crap, they forgot to lower their garage door. I'll get that shut for them so they don't get robbed.

There's a big difference between protecting yourself in a life or death situation, and hiding in the dark to shoot someone unaware of your presence. Markus Kaarma seems to be a bad person.

**Platuan4th**

daedalus wrote:
I mean, for all you know, the kid was all like, "Oh crap, they forgot to lower their garage door. I'll get that shut for them so they don't get robbed.

Y'know, knowing the few Germans I know, this is highly probable. Or he was looking to see if there was someone in there or in the house to notify.

**djones520**

daedalus wrote:
I mean, for all you know, the kid was all like, "Oh crap, they forgot to lower their garage door. I'll get that shut for them so they don't get robbed.

There's a big difference between protecting yourself in a life or death situation, and hiding in the dark to shoot someone unaware of your presence. Markus Kaarma seems to be a bad person.

Oh that's undoubtedly true. I hope this guy gets life (or death if Montana is into that kind of thing).

I still stand by my maxim though. If you don't want a face full of buckshot, don't wander into someones garage after dark.

**Asherian Command**

daedalus wrote:
I mean, for all you know, the kid was all like, "Oh crap, they forgot to lower their garage door. I'll get that shut for them so they don't get robbed.

There's a big difference between protecting yourself in a life or death situation, and hiding in the dark to shoot someone unaware of your presence. Markus Kaarma seems to be a bad person.

As I have stated before... He sounds like a serial killer.

**Jihadin**

The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms.

Its Montana....

This type of "baiting" was discontinue in warfare like four-three years ago.

Weak attempt of a loop hole though

Crimes stop or decreased sharply?

Manslaughter
-They planned it
-Saw on video a individual
-Seven shots into the garage no warning

**nels1031**

djones520 wrote:
If you don't want a face full of buckshot, don't wander into someones garage after dark.

Wise words. My granny used to tell me the same thing.

I'm curious about this kid though, will an investigation into him see if he's responsible for the other breakins?

**Asherian Command**

Jihadin wrote:
The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms.

Its Montana....

This type of "baiting" was discontinue in warfare like four-three years ago.

Weak attempt of a loop hole though

Crimes stop or decreased sharply?

Manslaughter
-They planned it
-Saw on video a individual
-Seven shots into the garage no warning

More like 1st Degree Murder. Not manslaughter, that is unintentional

-They planned it
-saw on video
-had means to do so
-had the power
-killed without warning
-malicious intent

**Jihadin**

Woops thanks for the correction Asherian

**Ensis Ferrae**

Asherian Command wrote:
[
More like 1st Degree Murder. Not manslaughter, that is unintentional
-They planned it
-saw on video
-had means to do so
-had the power
-killed without warning
-malicious intent

I don't believe that you must "warn" anyone under castle law, but I may be wrong on that. And having the "means" and "power" are the same thing. Beyond that, I do agree with you that this isn't manslaughter. Manslaughter would be publishing a video showing that the German teen was attempting to close the garage door to prevent break-ins, but was attacked by Bigfoot in the process. The homeowner, trying to save the kid, shot at bigfoot with the shotgun, but instead killed the kid, scaring off Bigfoot.

**dogma**

Yeah, this seems pretty cut and dry.

**Ensis Ferrae**

dogma wrote:
Yeah, this seems pretty cut and dry.

Is it just me, or does this guy seem like he emigrated from Apartheid South Africa?? Markus Hendrik Kaarma seriously sounds/spells like someone who has deep issues.

**A Town Called Malus**

This is terrible. Lock him up and his wife as an accomplice.

**Asherian Command**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
dogma wrote:
Yeah, this seems pretty cut and dry.

Is it just me, or does this guy seem like he emigrated from Apartheid South Africa?? Markus Hendrik Kaarma seriously sounds/spells like someone who has deep issues.

Sounds like a pyschopath.

**Breotan**

These statutes are not a license to murder. I hope he and his wife lose everything and the prosecutors use whatever "special circumstances" law is in place there.

**Platuan4th**

dogma wrote:
Yeah, this seems pretty cut and dry.

That sounds even worse. He intentionally snuck between the cars so that the person(s) inside couldn't get out without coming towards him or going through the door to the house.

More and more, that really doesn't sound like someone in fear for their life(especially with that set-up to see/hear in the garage).

If I heard someone in the garage, I'd use the door to the house to confront them to put myself between them and the interior where my family is. I'm not going the long way around to give them the less favourable option to get away from my gun.

**Orlanth**

Actually we dont know where the 'intruder' was in the garage.

I could see a scenario where an honest and well meaning person sees an open garage and the purse approaches in disbelief then goes to the garage-house door, or even leave and go to the front door to knock and say, 'hey you left your garage open'.

I could see myself falling for that and thus getting shot by a paranoid git.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Platuan4th wrote:
dogma wrote:
Yeah, this seems pretty cut and dry.

That sounds even worse. He intentionally snuck between the cars so that the person(s) inside couldn't get out without coming towards him or going through the door to the house.

It was a fething ambush

Spoiler:

**Orlanth**

Asherian Command wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms.

Its Montana....

This type of "baiting" was discontinue in warfare like four-three years ago.

Weak attempt of a loop hole though

Crimes stop or decreased sharply?

Manslaughter
-They planned it
-Saw on video a individual
-Seven shots into the garage no warning

More like 1st Degree Murder. Not manslaughter, that is unintentional
-They planned it
-saw on video
-had means to do so
-had the power
-killed without warning
-malicious intent

Murder, the intent is everything. Not just the individual planning but the motive is key. They were burgled twice in three weeks, so they wanted someone to pay. This alleged incident can be seen as a straight up revenge killing.

**Asherian Command**

Orlanth wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms.

Its Montana....

This type of "baiting" was discontinue in warfare like four-three years ago.

Weak attempt of a loop hole though

Crimes stop or decreased sharply?

Manslaughter
-They planned it
-Saw on video a individual
-Seven shots into the garage no warning

More like 1st Degree Murder. Not manslaughter, that is unintentional
-They planned it
-saw on video
-had means to do so
-had the power
-killed without warning
-malicious intent

Murder, the intent is everything. Not just the individual planning but the motive is key. They were burgled twice in three weeks, so they wanted someone to pay. This alleged incident can be seen as a straight up revenge killing.

Malicious intent is kind of similar. But yep it is

. It is a key. I hope the guy gets locked up and his child is given to a reasonable family.