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I recently read somewhere that a Necron monolith, when deepstriking, can scatter onto enemy units without misshaping and that it is a new 6th ed rule for skimmers. I have never heard this before, I assume it come from the part on page 83 that states, "If a skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left under it."
I was under the impression that this is just for regular movement, does it really work for deepstriking?

There was a big debate about this I'll have to dig out. The crux of the argument is if Deepstriking is movement or not.

Edit:
Here is the old thread, take a read through it and get their perspective at the time. Just don't necro the thread as it is over a year old.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/518371.page

Well, I don't have my rulebook on me atm, but from what I understand of deep striking I would say no. The vehicle is moving at crusising speed, but deep striking clearly states if you are placed within 1" of an enemy model you suffer a mishap. 5th edition monoliths shoved units they deepstruck onto out of the way is what you might be thinking of.

 Nova nick wrote:
I recently read somewhere that a Necron monolith, when deepstriking, can scatter onto enemy units without misshaping and that it is a new 6th ed rule for skimmers.

No, that was the old Necron book.

I have never heard this before, I assume it come from the part on page 83 that states, "If a skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left under it."
I was under the impression that this is just for regular movement, does it really work for deepstriking?

Which does not matter. even if you could move the skimmer off the unit you would still be within 1 inch of an enemy and the unit would still mishap.

actually death, if you pointed the nose of the speeder toward the unit in the correct facing, by moving back, the land speeders flying base would indeed be slightly over 1" away from the unit, preventing the mishap. I've already measured it myself.


As was stated earlier, the issue is purely whether or not the scatter from deepstrike is movement or not.


You count as having moved at cruising speed, and yet you are "placed" the distance of the scatter.

If the deepstrike is movement, then your speeders would not mishap as per the skimmer rule.

Eihnlazer wrote:
actually death, if you pointed the nose of the speeder toward the unit in the correct facing, by moving back, the land speeders flying base would indeed be slightly over 1" away from the unit, preventing the mishap. I've already measured it myself.


As was stated earlier, the issue is purely whether or not the scatter from deepstrike is movement or not.


You count as having moved at cruising speed, and yet you are "placed" the distance of the scatter.

If the deepstrike is movement, then your speeders would not mishap as per the skimmer rule.

If Deep Strike scatter is movement, then no one could ever mishap.

Eihnlazer wrote:
actually death, if you pointed the nose of the speeder toward the unit in the correct facing, by moving back, the land speeders flying base would indeed be slightly over 1" away from the unit, preventing the mishap. I've already measured it myself.

Except you measure to the Hull of a skimmer vehicle not the base. Therefore you would mishap.

As was stated earlier, the issue is purely whether or not the scatter from deepstrike is movement or not.

It isn't.

If it were you would be slowed through Difficult terrain, barred from movement by Impassible terrain and you could not come within 1 inch of an enemy model. Therefore it is not movement.

You count as having moved at cruising speed, and yet you are "placed" the distance of the scatter.

If the deepstrike is movement, then your speeders would not mishap as per the skimmer rule.

If the deepstrike is movement nothing would ever mishap.

 DeathReaper wrote:

If the deepstrike is movement nothing would ever mishap.

Is that due to movement not having permission to move into another unit, which the deepstrike rules would override. Or because most things that can deepstrike are skimmers, in which case things like deepstriking IG vehicles and jump/jet pack troops would still mishap.

 Nilok wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

If the deepstrike is movement nothing would ever mishap.

Is that due to movement not having permission to move into another unit, which the deepstrike rules would override.

They don't

Or because most things that can deepstrike are skimmers, in which case things like deepstriking IG vehicles and jump/jet pack troops would still mishap.

Most things that can deepstrike are NOT skimmers...

Any model with a jump pack, any blood angel Land raider, anyone in terminator armor (Except SW's) etc...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

If the deepstrike is movement nothing would ever mishap.

Is that due to movement not having permission to move into another unit, which the deepstrike rules would override.

They don't

Assuming that deepstriking is movement, it simply says if you scatter over a place you can't be (to paraphrase), you would trigger a mishap. I would like it if you could provide evidence to support your position. Why would a jump unit be protected from mishaps?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
Or because most things that can deepstrike are skimmers, in which case things like deepstriking IG vehicles and jump/jet pack troops would still mishap.

Most things that can deepstrike are NOT skimmers...

Any model with a jump pack, any blood angel Land raider, anyone in terminator armor (Except SW's) etc...

I was trying to determine your position because your statement lacked an argument. You said nothing would mishap and you didn't provide a reason why they wouldn't.

 Nilok wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

If the deepstrike is movement nothing would ever mishap.

Is that due to movement not having permission to move into another unit, which the deepstrike rules would override.

They don't

Assuming that deepstriking is movement, it simply says if you scatter over a place you can't be (to paraphrase), you would trigger a mishap. I would like it if you could provide evidence to support your position. Why would a jump unit be protected from mishaps?

Because you can not move within one inch of a model and a jump unit can not move on top of an enemy model. Ergo Assuming that deepstriking is movement, a jump unit would be protected from mishaps because they would not be able to legally land on top of a unit and as such an invalid move.

 Nilok wrote:
I was trying to determine your position because your statement lacked an argument. You said nothing would mishap and you didn't provide a reason why they wouldn't.

Because the movement rules tell you that you take Dangerous Terrain tests for moving through Dangerous Terrain. You do not take Dangerous Terrain tests with deep strike scatter. Therefore DS is not movement.

except that you do

If you land in difficult terrain it counts as dangerous when deepstriking.

Landing in dangerous terrain presumably does too, but oddly isn't mentioned. Perhaps they assumed that we can figure that one out

Deepstiking a vehicle counts as moving at cruising speed, and count as having moved in the shooting phase. If you are moving, and in dangerous terrain you should take a dangerous terrain check, it seems.

YMMV of course

 Ascalam wrote:
except that you do

no you dont.

If you land in difficult terrain it counts as dangerous when deepstriking.

If you land in it yes, but if you scatter past it... No.

Landing in dangerous terrain presumably does too, but oddly isn't mentioned. Perhaps they assumed that we can figure that one out

Dangerous terrain is Dangerous yes, but if you scatter past dangerous terrain you do not have to test.

Deepstiking a vehicle counts as moving at cruising speed, and count as having moved in the shooting phase. If you are moving, and in dangerous terrain you should take a dangerous terrain check, it seems.

If you are moving, and in dangerous terrain you should take a dangerous terrain check

But Deep Strike scatter is not movement.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

If the deepstrike is movement nothing would ever mishap.

Is that due to movement not having permission to move into another unit, which the deepstrike rules would override.

They don't

Assuming that deepstriking is movement, it simply says if you scatter over a place you can't be (to paraphrase), you would trigger a mishap. I would like it if you could provide evidence to support your position. Why would a jump unit be protected from mishaps?

Because you can not move within one inch of a model and a jump unit can not move on top of an enemy model. Ergo Assuming that deepstriking is movement, a jump unit would be protected from mishaps because they would not be able to legally land on top of a unit and as such an invalid move.

 Nilok wrote:
I was trying to determine your position because your statement lacked an argument. You said nothing would mishap and you didn't provide a reason why they wouldn't.

Because the movement rules tell you that you take Dangerous Terrain tests for moving through Dangerous Terrain. You do not take Dangerous Terrain tests with deep strike scatter. Therefore DS is not movement.

Your example is unfortunately lacking as you never actually place a model in that location as it says "If any models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed...The controlling player must roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table and apply the results." If the final location is not legal, you mishap.

Your second statement confuses me even more as it doesn't seem to be about that I was talking about. Scattering only tells you were the final position is, not that the model is ever moved. You came to the correct conclusion that Deep Striking isn't movement, but by using a faulty argument.

Regardless, the models only count as moving in the previous movement phase for the shooting phase. The only place I can see confusion coming from is this line: "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further,". This may make players have already moved by its wording.

Nilok - if scatter were movement, and not simply displacement of where the unit will arrive, then you would indeed be protected from mishap.

The base move ment rules disallow you moving within 1" of an enemy model except when assaulting
DS rules tell you what happens IF you end up within 1" of an enemy model. That is NOT the same as allowing this to occur - it cannotbe the same thing, by definition.

So IF it were movement, while you know what WOULD occur if you scattered within 1" of an enemy model, you have no permision in the DS rules to actually do so, therefore the movement rule restriction would kick in, halting the scatter.

Similarly you could never scatter off the table.

In short, IF scatter were movement every unit essentially gains protection roughly equivalent to, or better than, a drop pod.

Deep-striking is movement.
The distance that the initial model "moves" if it scatters, is not movement.

Where the scattering model (unit) ends up, is basically compulsory movement/displacement, self-contained within the ds rule. Thus allowing movement to within 1" of an enemy, with the consequences of that, contained within the deep strike rule.

General movement rules are overidden by the specifics of deep-strike.

I have read every single post and i am still absolutely lost.

Lets assume Deep striking is movement.

Skimmers, due to their rule, would move to 1" away from enemy units and not mishap - ie Skimmers are all safe from mishap.

But why are the other unit types? say Terminators teleporting, if they Scatter in the middle of the enemy, why are they safe?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
therefore the movement rule restriction would kick in, halting the scatter.

I think i understand with this, but surely "you may not move to there" means you cannot be placed according to DS scatter = mishap right?

how does the Mvt rules override the mishap rules?

 BlackTalos wrote:


Lets assume Deep striking is movement.

Skimmers, due to their rule, would move to 1" away from enemy units and not mishap - ie Skimmers are all safe from mishap.

But why are the other unit types? say Terminators teleporting, if they Scatter in the middle of the enemy, why are they safe?

It is movement, but, that movement is determined by the ds rules.
Remember that a scatter is a compulsory displacement of where you want to go, it, in of itself, is not movement.

Teleporting terminators are not safe, the point that has been made, is that IF scattering (not deep-striking, but scattering alone) were itself movement, the rules would prevent you from contacting/ getting too close to other models. However, its not.

So, I place termie no1 on the table where I want to land.
Has it moved = no.
It scatters that way "x" distance.
As it is "moved" (displaced) is it moving = no.
Final location is determined and the models placed down.
Have they moved = yes.

Deep strike is movement, scattering is not.
Where a scattered unit ends up, is determined by the ds rules and not others.

As written I have come to agree that it doesn't prevent mishap but no one has ever been able to put fourth a time when the skimmer rule would kick in...

Gravmyr wrote:
As written I have come to agree that it doesn't prevent mishap but no one has ever been able to put fourth a time when the skimmer rule would kick in...

Lash of submission from the Demon codex for 5th ed would make the rule kick in.

And nothing else? Interesting. Why would that effect not be in the Lash' rules instead of skimmers. Ah GW....

I have never read he Lash rules.

I am of the belief that it does help with deep strike. Just like the Drop pod rule.

Sadly the vague writing of the rules in question do not read that way. As such the skimmer moving off of units it is forced to end it's move on is about pointless. It is wasted ink, unless the lash rule doesn't explain what happens when a model is forced to move into another unit.

Does the lash rule even exist anymore?

I imagine an ork lifta-droppa or the old space marine magna-grappler would have affected it as well.

I think this sounds like a reasonable argument that it does work. deepstriking is moving at cruising speed, skimmers moving onto units reduce their move accordingly, therefore skimmers can't mishap into infantry.

they can still mishap into any impassible terrain and off the board, though.

 some bloke wrote:
I imagine an ork lifta-droppa or the old space marine magna-grappler would have affected it as well.

I think this sounds like a reasonable argument that it does work. deepstriking is moving at cruising speed, skimmers moving onto units reduce their move accordingly, therefore skimmers can't mishap into infantry.

they can still mishap into any impassible terrain and off the board, though.

Deep Striking is movement. Scattering is not. Or do models the scatter through Dangerous Terrain take DT tests?

 Happyjew wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
I imagine an ork lifta-droppa or the old space marine magna-grappler would have affected it as well.

I think this sounds like a reasonable argument that it does work. deepstriking is moving at cruising speed, skimmers moving onto units reduce their move accordingly, therefore skimmers can't mishap into infantry.

they can still mishap into any impassible terrain and off the board, though.

Deep Striking is movement. Scattering is not. Or do models the scatter through Dangerous Terrain take DT tests?

Movement through things is not uncommon though? Jump Move, GK Shunt move, etc.

Deep Strike move is not "standard" movement: the final position is ultimately all that invokes additional Rules. The rule invoked here being "If a skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left under it.", we do not consider the scatter any form of movement, but the final position is treated "as movement"?


I would also point out an important point: It would not work like a Drop Pod.

Drop pods "reduce the scatter" until it becomes "safe", so it will always "return" to it's original position.
the rule discussed here is "move the skimmer the minimum distance" so it might even go the opposite way of the original target (just shortest route to safety)

That is, if this does ultimately apply.


As for RaI, the monolith used to have a rule such as this, but trying to get that back would give this rule to all skimmers, and in that time period, Land speeders used to mishap when scattered of enemy units

The Monoliths rule if I remember correctly moved models out from under it.

It's loss however was one of the reasons I believe the skimmer ending on another model rule was meant to work for deep striking.

Except it is only movement after you determine the mishap. So you mishap before it ends it's movement

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except it is only movement after you determine the mishap. So you mishap before it ends it's movement

I agree it doesn't work, as written, but I believe it was intended to stop the DS mishap.


We'll, hopefully, have some form of answer at the end of the month, when the 7th edition/6th edition reboot comes out. Probably not as GW can't proofread/write/playtest their rules.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Probably not as GW can't proofread/write/playtest their rules.

Probably the most definite answer here :p

Maybe this will help explain it a bit.

Deep strike is movement. It is simply an alternative way to move a model onto the table. Merely with the origination point being from above the table top.

The scatter distance is not considered movement as the model is not in play or considered on the table until the final position of the model is determined, after utilizing the scatter dice. I know that there are instances where you don't use the scatter dice, but the model still is not in play until it's final position is determined.

You don't have to place all models(or any) from a unit on the table, in order to determine scatter. You can place just one of the models of the unit or use a marker. Since the configuration of the unit is made after the final positioning is determined it would not be viable to declare that a model passed through any terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Probably not as GW can't proofread/write/playtest their rules.

Probably the most definite answer here :p

indeed