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Wraithguard have been an objectively terrible unit since third edition...

I mean it's actually pretty comical; nothing about the unit has changed in over 10 years, while the rest of that codex has been reworked completely.

Now, I can't explain why, but I've always really liked Iyanden. In fact I have an Iyanden Army, that I built many many years ago. In fact for a brief time in 3rd edition, before the codex was released, 3 of the wraithguard embarked on a wave serpent could shoot out, and that with 3 wraithlords was the most you could ask for.

Does anyone know why the wraithguard were just... put to pasture? (lol)

Wraithblades seem like a step in the right direction, but at 35pts, a wraithblade is no terminator. Maybe with S7 and 2W it'd work.

Has anyone out there made a competitive Iyanden List? (hah) I mean, is it even possible to actually use wraithguard/wraithblades to win a game?

Not sure if trolling... or...

Seriously, Iyanden lists are quite powerful right now considering the overwhelming power of the wave serpent.

Theoretical Iyanden themed eldar list:

Spirit Seer (Joins a wraithguard squad, your choice)

Farseer on a jetbike with mantle of the laughing god (fun unit and able to pull some wacky water weasel type hijinks)

5 man Wraithguard squad in a wave serpent (with D-scythes of course)

5 man Wraithguard squad in a wave serpent (with wraithcannons for variety)

5 man Wraithguard squad in a wave serpent (whatever weapons you want)

Squad of Guardian jetbikers (3 or more, points allowing) or a large-ish squad of guardian defenders if you want something that can sit on an objective in cover and throw an anti-tank weapon in there so they can threaten whatever they wish.

Wraith Knight, armed however you want.



Sprinkle additional units to taste. Done. Four scoring units, all of which can be fast if you choose them to be (jetbikes) and hits like a mack truck traveling on an interstate.

I for one would have a VERY hard time with this list with my guard. Incredibly difficult to pin things down and pardon me while I watch my heavy firepower just fold like a card table at the firepower the above list can bring to bear. It's not even a 'cheesy' list in my opinion. More of a fluffy type of Iyanden list that I would personally LOVE to play against, but weep quietly as I watched it dismantle my guard over the first two or three turns of shooting.

Seriously, Wraith constructs are crazy good in whatever form they take. They're expensive, yea, but they're S:6/T:6 and they get to ride around in what is bar none the best transport in the game till they need to get out and *MURDER* the crap out of what paltry remains of the squads the wave serpents just got done obliterating.

Just my thoughts on that. Iyanden is in a REALLY good place right now with the strength of the current Eldar codex, and the crazyness that is the wave serpent.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

They are toughness 6. Bolters and lasguns wound them on 6's. They receive 1/3 of the wounds a 40 point terminator would against the most common weapons in the game and still have power armor after that. S10 instant death weapons...ap2 flamers... and access to the best transport in the game.... Obvious troll.

znelson wrote:
Wraithguard have been an objectively terrible unit since third edition...

I mean it's actually pretty comical; nothing about the unit has changed in over 10 years, while the rest of that codex has been reworked completely.

Now, I can't explain why, but I've always really liked Iyanden. In fact I have an Iyanden Army, that I built many many years ago. In fact for a brief time in 3rd edition, before the codex was released, 3 of the wraithguard embarked on a wave serpent could shoot out, and that with 3 wraithlords was the most you could ask for.

Does anyone know why the wraithguard were just... put to pasture? (lol)

Wraithblades seem like a step in the right direction, but at 35pts, a wraithblade is no terminator. Maybe with S7 and 2W it'd work.

Has anyone out there made a competitive Iyanden List? (hah) I mean, is it even possible to actually use wraithguard/wraithblades to win a game?

Um...?

Wraithguard are pretty good. I have no problem winning games when I field them. As above, Throw them in a serpent, and you are golden. What problems are you running into? What does your list look like?

Well he thinkgs wraith blades are the best wraith guard type so that might indicate why he has trouble

znelson wrote:Wraithguard have been an objectively terrible unit since third edition

Yeah, a squad of scoring mini-monstrous creatures with magic screw you guns.

Sounds pretty awful to me.

Then why aren't they as widely played as DA and jetbikers?

Hmm.

I guess if they're not used as much then they must be bad.

You know, objectively.

That is not a false dilema ,if they were just as good as jet bikers and DAs , people would be using them and wining tournaments with them .I can't remember any multiple wins of eldar armies in big tournaments since the codex came out.

People don't use them in tournaments because of cost and speed.
A 3-man jetbike unit is 51 points.
DAVU Serpent is 210 points.
5-man Wraithguard in Serpent is 305 points (plus Spiritseer to make them Troops)

In other words for 1 Wraithguard unit in a standard SL/SC Serpent, I can have roughly 6 jetbike squads, or 1.5 DAVU Serpents. In smaller point games, not only do I get more scoring units, but I also have 2 HQ slots for Farseers.

Agtthot wrote:
They are toughness 6. Bolters and lasguns wound them on 6's. They receive 1/3 of the wounds a 40 point terminator would against the most common weapons in the game and still have power armor after that. S10 instant death weapons...ap2 flamers... and access to the best transport in the game.... Obvious troll.

Unfortunately lasguns can't wound them if i recall correctly :p

Wraithguard are damn awesome, i dunno what you're on about

You don't, T must be at least 1 point more than double S to be immune, Lasguns can wound T6 (just.)

 azreal13 wrote:
You don't, T must be at least 1 point more than double S to be immune, Lasguns can wound T6 (just.)

Not quite. T has t be at least S+4 to not be able to wound. For example, S1 can wound T1-4.

Iyanden is one of those armys that you can win by your opponent wasting shots. With both the Wraithknight and the Wraithlord being Toughness 8, there is a lot of high strength, typically single shot weaponry that requires 4 to wound. The wraithguard take 6's on bolters and 3's on plasma. Add into that wave serpents with jink saves and shields you can just watch your opponent struggle to wound your army.
Pick up the Iyanden supplement and grab some spiritseers, also look into the Wraithseer from forgeworld as he'd be a pretty intresting addition.

Makumba wrote:
That is not a false dilema ,if they were just as good as jet bikers and DAs , people would be using them and wining tournaments with them .I can't remember any multiple wins of eldar armies in big tournaments since the codex came out.

'Not as good as jetbikes' and 'Not good' are not synonymous.

If I recall correctly they were pretty good in 3rd when your opponent had to shoot at the closest enemy model. Of the cheese that one could cause in the wrong hands...

Wraithguards are bad?

Last I checked they were easily one of the toughest scoring units in the game with some of the nastiest guns.

Cannonguard slaughter vehicles and skullfeth most high value units, instagibbing anything with less than T6 and can threaten to instagib those with better values.

Scythe guard are a bit less effective against single targets, though distort means they don't lose too much, and they evaporate infantry with ease. They're also assault proof to a degree that 30k marine specialist squads, flamer spam crisis teams, and burnaboyz could only dream of.

Their only real downside is cost and range, and those serpents you were massing anyway can solve the last one.

Also when protected by a spiritseer they are functionally immune to basic infantry guns (save for the DEldar), and when fortuned on top of that firing at them is a waste of bullets. Conceal helps them survive what shooting can hurt them reliably better as well.

 dementedwombat wrote:
If I recall correctly they were pretty good in 3rd when your opponent had to shoot at the closest enemy model. Of the cheese that one could cause in the wrong hands...

That was 4th I believe.

In any rate I used to love my old Iyanden w/Kroot Mercs army

nobody wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
If I recall correctly they were pretty good in 3rd when your opponent had to shoot at the closest enemy model. Of the cheese that one could cause in the wrong hands...

That was 4th I believe.

In any rate I used to love my old Iyanden w/Kroot Mercs army

I know it was a rule in 4th, you had to take a leadership test to not shoot at the closest model. That will be forever burned on my brain because my 4th edition Tau codex had a horrendously overpriced piece of wargear for battlesuits that let them ignore that rule. Having a piece of wargear that was useless when it was made, then does literally nothing for 1.5 editions will tend to make one remember it.

Oh man, I should break out my old Tau codexes now. I'm starting to wax nostalgic. Did you know that once in the dawn of time Devilfish could move 6" in the assault phase just like battlesuits? How about that markerlights could lower your leadership for pinning tests? Good times...

 insaniak wrote:

Makumba wrote:
That is not a false dilema ,if they were just as good as jet bikers and DAs , people would be using them and wining tournaments with them .I can't remember any multiple wins of eldar armies in big tournaments since the codex came out.

'Not as good as jetbikes' and 'Not good' are not synonymous.

But if they were good , they would be used , but they aren't . It is not the case of few chosen people having access to WG and having top tier lists. It is the case of WG , not being used in eldar armies . And other arguments that could make it so , while WG still being good , do not apply here. They aren't metal like SoB , they aren't FW , they aren't a unit that can only be used with a formation . If any of those 3 happened one could say that WG are good , but people don't have them in their armies , because of limitations in local meta.

Makumba wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Makumba wrote:
That is not a false dilema ,if they were just as good as jet bikers and DAs , people would be using them and wining tournaments with them .I can't remember any multiple wins of eldar armies in big tournaments since the codex came out.

'Not as good as jetbikes' and 'Not good' are not synonymous.

But if they were good , they would be used , but they aren't . It is not the case of few chosen people having access to WG and having top tier lists. It is the case of WG , not being used in eldar armies . And other arguments that could make it so , while WG still being good , do not apply here. They aren't metal like SoB , they aren't FW , they aren't a unit that can only be used with a formation . If any of those 3 happened one could say that WG are good , but people don't have them in their armies , because of limitations in local meta.

Generally because the niche that they fill can be acheived by cover saves and/or rerollable 2++, that and they are not as useful in msu as a lot of the rest of the eldar army is, imo, they are a tanky hard hitting all rounder in an army of specialist, a jack of all trade, as it were, which in the eldar isnt' necessarily a good thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That and they are quite immobile without a transport

Makumba wrote:
That is not a false dilema ,if they were just as good as jet bikers and DAs , people would be using them and wining tournaments with them .I can't remember any multiple wins of eldar armies in big tournaments since the codex came out.

Because people are lazy and prefer to win by out-ruling your opponent with 2++ saves, etc, etc rather than win with skill and tactics..

*Awaits the hate*

But seriously (and back to on-topic) They are good units the only downside to them is that they will get focussed fired down (especially with 1 wound) unless you take lots and lost of them, but then psychic powers should add more protection to your squads anyway..

And then there is the obvious "Put them in the serpent" that 24,00 people will comment in anyway making them even better.

Makumba wrote:
Then why aren't they as widely played as DA and jetbikers?

because DA are cheap $$ wise and jetbikes are awesome. That doesnt mean Wraithguard are bad.