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I'd love to see the stats be more lore-friendly.

As much fun as modding DoWII to make the stats fluffy and retaining balance is fun, it's a lot of work that I'd rather have someone else do for me.

 Melissia wrote:

 SkavenLord wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Something squad based like X-com would be up my alley. Perhaps with more individual character customisation.

That'd be a neat idea, but I think it'd be better off being Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader, than Dawn of War.

Couldn't it also work with Deathwatch?

No, because deathwatch is boring. If you insist on it being a military hack'n'slash style game, Only War would be better. At least then it wouldn't be easy mode all the time, and you could have characters that have something resembling personality.

In your opinion that may be the case, and beside Deathwatch dose not automaticly mean easy mode but I suppose ones experience with it may vary from person to person

I could certainly see Deathwatch work there, too - it'd only be about as "hack & slash" as X-Com was. However, the difficulty and thus the challenge/suspense would depend greatly on how exactly you stat the characters against their enemies.

The way I see it, a marriage of Deathwatch + X-Com (sans basebuilding) might result in a better Space Hulk game. However, it's true that a Dark Heresy-style game would offer a much greater degree of variety, allowing the player to include very different types of characters with way more specialised skills and abilities. Plus, with the player essentially being the Inquisitor, you could then add a plethora of non-combat game elements that might look odd otherwise.

That said, why are we looking at FFG games for inspiration here, anyways? Games Workshop's Specialist Games line offers ample opportunity for video game versions ... and unlike the Dark Heresy or Deathwatch RPGs, "Inquisitor" at least allows you to build mixed teams of Space Marines and normal humans without making every non-Astartes feel like a worthless scrub due to arbitrary equipment gaps and broken stat mechanics.

Unless that is one's idea of "lore-friendly", of course.

If we're doing a TBS-RPG sort of thing like X-Com or Shadowrun, I'd prefer we dump Space Marines entirely as player-characters, myself.

 Melissia wrote:
If we're doing a TBS-RPG sort of thing like X-Com or Shadowrun, I'd prefer we dump Space Marines entirely as player-characters, myself.

Nope, Id rather play as an Marine than some random idiot out from the guard, or some half decent inqusitorial acolyte any day of the week.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I'd like for them to go back to the RTS style of DoW than the RTT style of DoW2. I thought DoW was a substantially more fun game but I don't really like RTT; I'm predisposed. I like building stuff and climbing tech trees.

Alternately, making it closer to the tabletop could be fun, too. Sort of like an animated version of Vassal with the rules baked in.

If you want buildings/research/etc, go with something like SupCom or Total Annihilation rather than reverting it to a modified starcrapped clone.

I can't stand playing DoW1 these days. It pretty much sucks as a game compared to most newer RTS games, in terms of raw gameplay. Even the most recent CnC games are better (well, maybe not CnC4...)

There is no CnC4.

*Sobs*

I'd like a large scale game myself.

Knowing relic plots the campaign will be "Space Marines are called in to fight Ork threat, Eldar dickery is encountered, then the real threat unleashes itself."

At least for the first game, then they'll get less formulaic with the expansions.

 Trondheim wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
If we're doing a TBS-RPG sort of thing like X-Com or Shadowrun, I'd prefer we dump Space Marines entirely as player-characters, myself.

Nope, Id rather play as an Marine than some random idiot out from the guard, or some half decent inqusitorial acolyte any day of the week.

I'd rather play as someone unique or interesting than boring bald screaming generic old white soldier guy #15,249,878,946,548,974, myself. A preference which is mutually exclusive to playing Space Marines.

 Kain wrote:
I'd like a large scale game myself.

Knowing relic plots the campaign will be "Space Marines are called in to fight Ork threat, Eldar dickery is encountered, then the real threat unleashes itself."

At least for the first game, then they'll get less formulaic with the expansions.

Is Relic still a functional entity any more? I was under the impression that they aren't.

 Melissia wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
If we're doing a TBS-RPG sort of thing like X-Com or Shadowrun, I'd prefer we dump Space Marines entirely as player-characters, myself.

Nope, Id rather play as an Marine than some random idiot out from the guard, or some half decent inqusitorial acolyte any day of the week.

I'd rather play as someone unique or interesting than boring bald screaming generic old white soldier guy #15,249,878,946,548,974, myself. A preference which is mutually exclusive to playing Space Marines.

 Kain wrote:
I'd like a large scale game myself.

Knowing relic plots the campaign will be "Space Marines are called in to fight Ork threat, Eldar dickery is encountered, then the real threat unleashes itself."

At least for the first game, then they'll get less formulaic with the expansions.

Is Relic still a functional entity any more? I was under the impression that they aren't.

Yes, Relic survived and are under SEGA's wing. Their most recent outing is Company of Heroes 2 which I have some very strong opinions about.

Not for the gameplay, which is fine, but for the insulting portrayal of the Red Army as worse than the Nazis who historically killed off nearly 1/7th of the Soviet populace. By ascribing all the Nazi atrocities to the Soviets. In their own country. While playing "Noble Wehrmacht" completely straight.

Urgh.

 Kain wrote:
Not for the gameplay, which is fine, but for the insulting portrayal of the Red Army as worse than the Nazis who historically killed off nearly 1/7th of the Soviet populace. By ascribing all the Nazi atrocities to the Soviets. In their own country. While playing "Noble Wehrmacht" completely straight.

So you didn't play the single player campaign then.

Because this didn't happen.

Also, Stalin killed almost asmany of his own countrymen through execution, torture, famine, misrule, and general dickery as the combined casualties of the rest of World War II combined. About 1.5 million were directly killed off, another 5 million died in the Gulags (and that's the official NKVD count; the reality is much, MUCH higher). 1.7 million died from the deportation authorities, Hundreds of thousands more were executed for cowardice or through the "blocking battalions", and millions more through misrule and famine.

The Soviet army in WWII was effective and its soldiers were brave and intelligent. But that doesn't change that it was poorly and cruelly run.

Meanwhile, CoH2 didn't really depict the Nazis as somehow noble or good.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Not for the gameplay, which is fine, but for the insulting portrayal of the Red Army as worse than the Nazis who historically killed off nearly 1/7th of the Soviet populace. By ascribing all the Nazi atrocities to the Soviets. In their own country. While playing "Noble Wehrmacht" completely straight.

So you didn't play the single player campaign then.

Because this didn't happen.

Also, Stalin killed almost asmany of his own countrymen through execution, torture, famine, misrule, and general dickery as the combined casualties of the rest of World War II combined. About 1.5 million were directly killed off, another 5 million died in the Gulags (and that's the official NKVD count; the reality is much, MUCH higher). 1.7 million died from the deportation authorities, Hundreds of thousands more were executed for cowardice or through the "blocking battalions", and millions more through misrule and famine.

The Soviet army in WWII was effective and its soldiers were brave and intelligent. But that doesn't change that it was poorly and cruelly run.

Meanwhile, CoH2 didn't really depict the Nazis as somehow noble or good.

Bit of an exaggeration yes but I stopped midway through out of disgust and mostly just went to bad comedian for the rest. The flamethrowering a village thing made me decide I had about enough of it.

It also didn't quite drive home the level of horribleness the Germans inflicted in Russia and the other republics in four short years. Slavery, rape, feudalization, murder for fun, breaking up families to free "aryan children" from the slavic untermensch, and plans to create a permanent frontier in Russia so that the noble German warrior race could be forever at war with the "Slavic Hordes" Hitler hated so much and enslave the rest to work on fields.

Because Americans need to know that Germany did unspeakable things to the USSR. To the point of entire grids of the map in the USSR being completely devoid of all human life.

I'm also generally suspicious of any casualty count ascribed to Stalin above 20 million, and tend to automatically ignore anyone who trots out stupid figures like 60 mil.

I mostly play multiplayer now.

 Kain wrote:
Bit of an exaggeration

That's like saying that Fox News is "a bit conservative".

 Kain wrote:
It also didn't quite drive home the level of horribleness the Germans inflicted in Russia and the other republics in four short years. Slavery, rape, feudalization, murder for fun, breaking up families to free "aryan children" from the slavic untermensch, and plans to create a permanent frontier in Russia so that the noble German warrior race could be forever at war with the "Slavic Hordes" Hitler hated so much and enslave the rest to work on fields.

So basically the exact same thing as Stalin did to his own people.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Bit of an exaggeration

That's like saying that Fox News is "a bit conservative".

 Kain wrote:
It also didn't quite drive home the level of horribleness the Germans inflicted in Russia and the other republics in four short years. Slavery, rape, feudalization, murder for fun, breaking up families to free "aryan children" from the slavic untermensch, and plans to create a permanent frontier in Russia so that the noble German warrior race could be forever at war with the "Slavic Hordes" Hitler hated so much and enslave the rest to work on fields.

So basically the exact same thing as Stalin did to his own people.

Generalplan Ost called for the deaths of well over a hundred million people, the exile of many more beyond the Urals to freeze, and the enslavement of the rest. Had he won the war in the east, he would have carried out this plan to the letter.

Hitler wanted the Slavs dead and buried or in chains.

I'm talking about pretty much all human life from Poland to the Urals purged or enslaved in conditions equal to or worse than Blacks suffered in the Americas during the height of the plantation era.

He was already about a tenth of the way through with his plan before the tide turned.

Now back on topic:

I'm seeing the Necrons as the most likely fourth faction, given that both Chaos and the Tyranids have already had their turn out of the "big bad" factions.

I'm guessing Force Commander Hairgel won't be making a return, but neither will Diomedes. Rather you'll get a new commander risen to the ranks to fill out the depleted numbers of the Blood Ravens as the 42nd millenium rolls on.

The expansion packs will have their own campaigns for the other races of course, but the first game is probably going to be marines only.

 Kain wrote:
Generalplan Ost called for the deaths of well over a hundred million people, the exile of many more beyond the Urals to freeze, and the enslavement of the rest. Had he won the war in the east, he would have carried out this plan to the letter.

So again, not really all that different than how Stalin treated his own people.

Tens of millions of people died because of Stalin deporting ethnic minorities.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Generalplan Ost called for the deaths of well over a hundred million people, the exile of many more beyond the Urals to freeze, and the enslavement of the rest. Had he won the war in the east, he would have carried out this plan to the letter.

So again, not really all that different than how Stalin treated his own people.

Tens of millions of people died because of Stalin deporting ethnic minorities.

Wiki puts the highest numbers generally agreed upon by the historical community as 20 million as their high end, with 15 being average, and 10 being the minimum.

Awful, horrendous, and a black stain in Russia's black history of evil men and tyrants, but not Generalplan Ost level genocide.

Now back on topic.

 Kain wrote:
Awful, horrendous, and a black stain in Russia's black history of evil men and tyrants

Which means CoH2 was pretty fething accurate.

The heroes/protagonists (if you prefer) of the story of CoH2 are the individual soldiers and commanders who fought to protect their country. The villains/antagonists were the Nazis, while the upper echelons of the red army weren't really that much better in the end.

Which really just makes CoH2 historically accurate.

I would make it like a Mechwarrior style game, only instead of Mechs you would pilot a Titan, it would be 1st/3rd person action game, you would start on as Warhound Princeps and eventually upgrade to Reaver, Warlord and finally Imperator during you career. Your enemies would be Ork Gargants, Eldar Titans, Traitor Titan Legions and Nid bio titans, or maybe even things like Land Raiders and Baneblades when in Warhound. All of this in some fancy new Crysis engine.

Or make it just a turn based strategy follows rules of 40k completely, you know, like PC Blood Bowl, but 40k instead

 Melissia wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Awful, horrendous, and a black stain in Russia's black history of evil men and tyrants

Which means CoH2 was pretty fething accurate.

The heroes/protagonists (if you prefer) of the story of CoH2 are the individual soldiers and commanders who fought to protect their country. The villains/antagonists were the Nazis, while the upper echelons of the red army weren't really that much better in the end.

Which really just makes CoH2 historically accurate.

The general Russian sentiment regarding Coh2 can be summed up by this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m4SCUaBHS8

In any case.

I'd like to see a focus more on true to fluff accuracy than true to tabletop accuracy given that the tabletop is currently sliding off into madness and is about as well balanced as a scale with fat albert on one end and Galactus on the other.

I would also try to feature all the factions sooner or later into the game, without leaving any out as happened in the prior two DoW franchises.

So I'd recommend at least three expansion packs with two armies each, maybe four if you want Chaos Daemons to be split off.

The mini-dexes released recently can mostly be rolled into existing Imperial factions.

sidcom wrote:
I would make it like a Mechwarrior style game, only instead of Mechs you would pilot a Titan, it would be 1st/3rd person action game, you would start on as Warhound Princeps and eventually upgrade to Reaver, Warlord and finally Imperator during you career. Your enemies would be Ork Gargants, Eldar Titans, Traitor Titan Legions and Nid bio titans, or maybe even things like Land Raiders and Baneblades when in Warhound. All of this in some fancy new Crysis engine.

That'd be neat I suppose. But 'mecha games have been getting shorter as time goes on, justl ike shooter games...

sidcom wrote:
Or make it just a turn based strategy follows rules of 40k completely, you know, like PC Blood Bowl, but 40k instead

Only if it has better AI than Blood Bowl does...


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 Kain wrote:
The general Russian sentiment regarding Coh2 can be summed up by this guy.

I don't care. Russia is so fethed up right now because of Putin and the other Stalin-worshipers that I am suspect of anything claimed to represent the average Russian.

 Kain wrote:
I'd like to see a focus more on true to fluff accuracy

Whose fluff are you being accurate to?

 Melissia wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I'd like to see a focus more on true to fluff accuracy

Whose fluff are you being accurate to?

More towards FFG and prior relic games and cherry picking the best bits from the BL and GW.

Which version of FFG's Space Marines would you use then?

There's at least three, and that's ignoring the Grey Knights crap.

Perhaps a step away from the all out War elements of the previous games.

An Inquisitor based game using an X-COM set up might be awesome. I'm thinking of the stuff we see being produced in the P&M forum for Inq28. Now that would be awesome.

Perhaps the occasional Space Marine or Battle Sister, but so many other weird and wonderful characters that these elites don't really mean gak in that setting.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Perhaps a step away from the all out War elements of the previous games.

An Inquisitor based game using an X-COM set up might be awesome. I'm thinking of the stuff we see being produced in the P&M forum for Inq28. Now that would be awesome.

Perhaps the occasional Space Marine or Battle Sister, but so many other weird and wonderful characters that these elites don't really mean gak in that setting.

Something like Shadowrun Returns would be great for a DH/RT based game I think.

Medium of Death wrote:Perhaps a step away from the all out War elements of the previous games.

An Inquisitor based game using an X-COM set up might be awesome. I'm thinking of the stuff we see being produced in the P&M forum for Inq28. Now that would be awesome.

Perhaps the occasional Space Marine or Battle Sister, but so many other weird and wonderful characters that these elites don't really mean gak in that setting.

That's not Dawn of War, I'd put that under a different name.

Melissia wrote:Which version of FFG's Space Marines would you use then?

There's at least three, and that's ignoring the Grey Knights crap.

Only war or Rogue Trader perhaps?

Deathwatch has things like Storm Wardens hammertossing Chaos Terminator lords two godzilla lengths away and suplexing carnifexes through tables.

 Kain wrote:
Deathwatch has things like Storm Wardens hammertossing Chaos Terminator lords two godzilla lengths away and suplexing carnifexes through tables.

And that's AFTER they nerfed it.

 Lynata wrote:
all about Imperial Guard versus Orks

i would buy such a game in a heartbeat. And by "buy" I of course mean "preorder."

 Manchu wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
all about Imperial Guard versus Orks

i would buy such a game in a heartbeat. And by "buy" I of course mean "preorder."

It doesn't matter if it's FPS, TBS, RTS, MMO, or what have you, I'd buy that.

Hell I'd buy a platformer variant of it. Take one serving Metal Slug and add Warhammer 40,000 to it.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Deathwatch has things like Storm Wardens hammertossing Chaos Terminator lords two godzilla lengths away and suplexing carnifexes through tables.

And that's AFTER they nerfed it.

Well, now we know Captain Titus' source of power.

Motherfether was loaded with fate points and could spend more than one at a time.

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
all about Imperial Guard versus Orks

i would buy such a game in a heartbeat. And by "buy" I of course mean "preorder."

It doesn't matter if it's FPS, TBS, RTS, MMO, or what have you, I'd buy that.

Hell I'd buy a platformer variant of it. Take one serving Metal Slug and add Warhammer 40,000 to it.

Agreed, all of that sounds good to me (minus MMO). A game about a Guardsman or a platoon of 'em or whatever, it has so much potential for authentic grimdark, i.e., black humor. Which is why it has to have Orks, too.

Now I'm thinking Pikmen, but with Imperial Guard and a Commissar.

And there's always the fallback of a loot based Diablo style RPG centered around orks. "You can have my jaggid choppa. I just found a blue big choppa of skullbustin."

I'd actually prefer a low 40k setting with guardsmen, chaos cultists, orks and maybe tau slugging it out in a CoH1 style game with cover, good vehicle combat and the awesome CoH style sounds and visual effects, I guess kinda like DoW2 but without crazy heroes and insane abilities, more infantry and vehicle focused, also get rid of that god damn 100 pop cap, when I want to play IG I want to see tank and infantry formations overunning the enemy, not 2 russes and 20 guys led by a super inquisitor that can solo a space marine.

Actually while we're at it let me list a few more things that I didn't like about dow2 that, if improved, could make an awesome dow 3.

Base building is fun, bring it back.

Get rid of the indestructible uber turrets guarding bases. An anti base rush weapon is good, but the ones in DoW2 just did not die, while the ones in CoH have blind spots and can die to infantry.

Maps are too big and LoS too small. Game just turns into a ninja capping game where the enemy attempts to cap your points stealthy then retreats as soon as you get him in a fight. The AI is notorious for this and its so damn frustrating.

I also felt that, besides the space marines, the voice acting was not up to DoW1 or CoH standards but at least its not as bad as CoH2's voice acting. (Please panther, at least try to sound excited a little, your Western front comrades would be ashamed)