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Right now I can't wrap my head around people understanding that things being different =/= different blessings / maledictions.

Ran into a few Eldar Players trying to convince other people that their Runes of Battle can stack if the sources are from different Warlocks... How on earth does one blatantly vomit all over the English language so profusely?

Page 68 of the BRB states the following;

Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative, but cannot, unless otherwise stated, take characteristics above 10 or below l.

Now it seems to me that people are getting rules either flat out wrong or purposely spinning lies to claim that a blessing (Taken from the table of Codex Eldar for instance) can be different, if they cast it from different sources.

Why oh why does it not surprise me that this would come to our FLGS. These same Eldar players are the ones also saying that Maledictions from Codecies such as CSM Discipline of Nurgle cannot stack (Which oddly enough they are right! Look at that lovely two faced action!)

Start of the Movement Phase Begins
Are Units affected by any maledictions / Blessings?
-> If yes They have Blessing of X / Malediction of X
-> If no They do not have Blessing of X / Malediction of X

You attempt to manifest Blessing of X on a unit that has Blessing of X already

They are not different Blessings. The effects of DIFFERENT BLESSINGS are cumulative. No where in the BRB does it state that the SAME blessings and Maledictions IF CAST FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES can be cumulative. They MUST be DIFFERENT.

Correct, as far as I am aware, on all counts.

If this is a "Same Powers Do Not Stack because the Rule Book says Different Powers Stack" thread, please refer to the "Hammerhand, Does it Stack?" Thread still on the first page.

If it is about people arguing that the same power stacks when beneficial but not when a hindrance...those people are idiots and need to be slapped upside the head.

Disclaimer: I take no responsibility for any actions taken against head-slapping of any kind.

I am with HappyJew,
This is a question that is raised so many times that you can bet some variation is on the first three pages on any given day, so please add to the discussion already underway instead of creating a new thread.

From my reading of the rules for Hammerhand, Hammerhand itself isn't a Blessing. And therefore isn't restricted to the Blessings rules of Page 68 of the BRB.

This is separate.

Yet it has boiled down to the same points being discussed over and over again.
I'm just really tired of seeing threads based around 'do the same power stack,' Games Workshop's complete silence on the matter the most tiring aspect of it all.

GoliothOnline wrote:
From my reading of the rules for Hammerhand, Hammerhand itself isn't a Blessing. And therefore isn't restricted to the Blessings rules of Page 68 of the BRB.

There is no restriction on page 68 that same blessings cannot stack.

Which is stupid because 2 people who have abilities that aren't Blessings with the same stat increasing buff should be allowed to do so.

Blessings have their own rules, and must be followed accordingly. Which seems to be an issue for people who want to take things out of context and blatantly lie about it.

The easiest way to look at it is in thee wording of the psychic powers themselves, as far as I'm aware.


Take Iron Arm, number 1 in Biomancy.

'...Whilst this power is in effect, the Psyker gains +D3 strength and Toughness..."
BRB, page 143

If I cast it a dozen times, or once, makes no difference. No matter how many times I cast it, 1 or 12, it never changes the fact that it's in effect. It's in effect from one source, it's in effect from a dozen, makes no difference.

I could cast it 12 times, and it's still 'in effect', so I still only gain D3 S/T.

If it were worded that casting it grants the unit/model +D3, then it could stack. The trigger 'in effect' cannot be duplicated; it's on or off, 0 or 1, no matter the casting multiplier.

Aye

GoliothOnline wrote:
It sure doesn't say "The psyker gains +D3 Strength and Toughness for each time you cast Iron Arm...

It wouldn't even need to be that specific. It could just say that casting Iron Arm grants the above. That is a condition you can satisfy more than once.

AFAIK, all psychic powers with buffs involved in 6th ed specify 'whilst in effect'.

Its not just Blessings and Maledictions

General rule for all powers: Page 68 under Resolve Psychic Power; Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative.

Specific to Blessings and Maledictions (exact same wording in each bar type): Not the bonuses and penalties from different Blessings/Maledictions are always cumulative, but cannot, unless otherwise stated, characteristics above 10 or below 1.

Also did you mean this Malediction from CSM Gift of Contagion on Page 71?

Which States: The effects of Multiple Gifts of Contagion are cumulative.

Because Weapon Virus' effect is a USR and is by default not cumulative.

It also may be worth noting that Symphony of Pain on the same page states: Note the effects of more than one Symphony of Pain are cumulative.

While Hysterical Frenzy does not have such text permitting accumulation of the Blessings effects.

OP.

It is also worth noting that "Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative." does not mean the effects of the same psychic powers are not cumulative.

"Permission to do X means you CANNOT do Y!" is logically incorrect.

Which means that Runes of Battle aren't cumulative on the same unit even when cast by multiple different sources. It's still the same, and not told in it's description that it can be stacked.

The simple fact is it's the same thing no matter how you try to spin it.

Does the unit have Blessing X?

Yes?

Then the unit cannot benefit from blessing X if it doesn't state it can be cumulative. Everywhere else where the applicable blessing can be stacked it is said so in its description. Blessing rules state that DIFFERENT blessing can stack.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Which means that Runes of Battle aren't cumulative on the same unit even when cast by multiple different sources. It's still the same, and not told in it's description that it can be stacked.

The simple fact is it's the same thing no matter how you try to spin it.

Does the unit have Blessing X?

Yes?

Then the unit cannot benefit from blessing X if it doesn't state it can be cumulative. Everywhere else where the applicable blessing can be stacked it is said so in its description. Blessing rules state that DIFFERENT blessing can stack.

And remember that the blessing rules state that DIFFERENT blessing can stack.

It does not state that the same blessing can not stack.

"Permission to do X means you CANNOT do Y!" is logically incorrect.

And no, reaper.

If you have 2 differently named blessings that do the same thing, they stack on one another. if you have 2 of the SAME blessing, unless otherwise stated, they DO NOT stack.

This indirect approach to making things broken is exactly why people don't want to get into a hobby which encourages illiterate uses of manipulation of the English language and writing.

 DeathReaper wrote:

And remember that the blessing rules state that DIFFERENT blessing can stack.

It does not state that the same blessing can not stack.

"Permission to do X means you CANNOT do Y!" is logically incorrect.

They're not forbidden to stack, but the way their rules are worded don't actually permit it, is more the thing. At least the BRB powers. Not up to speed with the Eldar ones.

A unit doesn't get any more under the effect of a power for multiple castings. Iron Arm cast once is in effect. Iron arm cast ten times is in effect. If Iron Arm is in effect on a model, +D3 strength and toughness.

Are you really saying that things that SPECIFCIALLY SAY you cannot do something, means you can actually do the opposite because it doesn't state you can't?

Wow.... just wow

GoliothOnline wrote:
Are you really saying that things that SPECIFCIALLY SAY you cannot do something, means you can actually do the opposite because it doesn't state you can't?

Wow.... just wow

Where does it SPECIFICALLY SAY that blessings do not stack?

GoliothOnline wrote:
Are you really saying that things that SPECIFCIALLY SAY you cannot do something, means you can actually do the opposite because it doesn't state you can't?

It would be really great if you could show where the rules specifically say this, as no one has been able to provide it yet.

And just has a heads up, "Remember that different powers/blessings/maledictions/etc are cumulative" does not mean the same are not.

GoliothOnline wrote:
if you have 2 of the SAME blessing, unless otherwise stated, they DO NOT stack.

Do you have a rules quote that says this?

I can not find it in the BRB.

Page 2, gives permission for multiple modifiers to stack.

Page 68 reads as follows

Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are
always cumulative...

If people want to sit there and argue that DIFFERENT BLESSINGS means the same blessings but from different sources (Which is complete rubbish as it's not stated as such in the RULE FOR USING BLESSINGS) then by all means go ahead and blatantly ignore the rules

Different Blessings means Different Blessings. It doesn't say Different in terms of sources from which that blessing is being casted.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
if you have 2 of the SAME blessing, unless otherwise stated, they DO NOT stack.

Do you have a rules quote that says this?

I can not find it in the BRB.

Page 2, gives permission for multiple modifiers to stack.

Modifiers aren't specifically locked to Blessings, which have their own specific rule set.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Page 68 reads as follows

Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are
always cumulative...

If people want to sit there and argue that DIFFERENT BLESSINGS means the same blessings but from different sources (Which is complete rubbish as it's not stated as such in the RULE FOR USING BLESSINGS) then by all means go ahead and blatantly ignore the rules

Different Blessings means Different Blessings. It doesn't say Different in terms of sources from which that blessing is being casted.

That never says that the same blessings are not cumulative.

Permission for different blessings to be cumulative has no bearing on the state of similar blessings. It would be like saying "Same blessings cannot stack because immobilized vehicles can't move!"

They're unrelated statements.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Are you really saying that things that SPECIFCIALLY SAY you cannot do something, means you can actually do the opposite because it doesn't state you can't?

Wow.... just wow

Where does it SPECIFICALLY SAY that blessings do not stack?

It says on Page 68 of the BRB

Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Page 68 reads as follows

Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are
always cumulative...

If people want to sit there and argue that DIFFERENT BLESSINGS means the same blessings but from different sources (Which is complete rubbish as it's not stated as such in the RULE FOR USING BLESSINGS) then by all means go ahead and blatantly ignore the rules

Different Blessings means Different Blessings. It doesn't say Different in terms of sources from which that blessing is being casted.

That never says that the same blessings are not cumulative.

Permission for different blessings to be cumulative has no bearing on the state of similar blessings. It would be like saying "Same blessings cannot stack because immobilized vehicles can't move!"

They're unrelated statements.

Again, blatantly disregarding the notion of DIFFERENT BLESSINGS. It's not saying you can stack the same Blessings.

GoliothOnline wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Are you really saying that things that SPECIFCIALLY SAY you cannot do something, means you can actually do the opposite because it doesn't state you can't?

Wow.... just wow

Where does it SPECIFICALLY SAY that blessings do not stack?

It says on Page 68 of the BRB

Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Page 68 reads as follows

Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are
always cumulative...

If people want to sit there and argue that DIFFERENT BLESSINGS means the same blessings but from different sources (Which is complete rubbish as it's not stated as such in the RULE FOR USING BLESSINGS) then by all means go ahead and blatantly ignore the rules

Different Blessings means Different Blessings. It doesn't say Different in terms of sources from which that blessing is being casted.

That never says that the same blessings are not cumulative.

Permission for different blessings to be cumulative has no bearing on the state of similar blessings. It would be like saying "Same blessings cannot stack because immobilized vehicles can't move!"

They're unrelated statements.

Again, blatantly disregarding the notion of DIFFERENT BLESSINGS. It's not saying you can stack the same Blessings.

Capitalizing the irrelevant words isn't helping your point.
Please cite a rule restricting same blessings.

rigeld2 wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Are you really saying that things that SPECIFCIALLY SAY you cannot do something, means you can actually do the opposite because it doesn't state you can't?

Wow.... just wow

Where does it SPECIFICALLY SAY that blessings do not stack?

It says on Page 68 of the BRB

Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Page 68 reads as follows

Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are
always cumulative...

If people want to sit there and argue that DIFFERENT BLESSINGS means the same blessings but from different sources (Which is complete rubbish as it's not stated as such in the RULE FOR USING BLESSINGS) then by all means go ahead and blatantly ignore the rules

Different Blessings means Different Blessings. It doesn't say Different in terms of sources from which that blessing is being casted.

That never says that the same blessings are not cumulative.

Permission for different blessings to be cumulative has no bearing on the state of similar blessings. It would be like saying "Same blessings cannot stack because immobilized vehicles can't move!"

They're unrelated statements.

Again, blatantly disregarding the notion of DIFFERENT BLESSINGS. It's not saying you can stack the same Blessings.

Capitalizing the irrelevant words isn't helping your point.
Please cite a rule restricting same blessings.

Cite me a rule stating the same blessing cast multiple times (And don't bring up that BS about modifiers as they aren't Blessings, they can be provided or lowered due to Blessings.) can stack from different sources on a single target.

GoliothOnline wrote:

It's not saying you can stack the same Blessings.

Right - it also isn't saying you can't stack the same blessings. It has as much bearing on whether or not the same blessing stacks as the Vehicle Damage Chart.

The process for Manifesting and Resolving a power is based on manifesting and resolving a single power by itself with no others powers or effects present.

The only mention of multiple powers or effects is a permission for different powers to be cumulative. There is no mention of multiple same powers ability to be cumulative, for or against, outside of specific individual power listings.

Frankly I couldn't care less which side the coin drops I'd just like a definitive answer on the matter.

GoliothOnline wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Capitalizing the irrelevant words isn't helping your point.
Please cite a rule restricting same blessings.

Cite me a rule stating the same blessing cast multiple times (And don't bring up that BS about modifiers as they aren't Blessings, they can be provided or lowered due to Blessings.) can stack from different sources on a single target.

Depends on the blessing. I have permission to resolve the power according to its text, yes?

I actually have a question that I haven't yet seen brought up in this often discussed topic, which I will get to in a bit.

GoliothOnline, it is your opinion that the same blessing cast multiple times cannot stack from different sources on a single target correct?

GoliothOnline wrote:Cite me a rule stating the same blessing cast multiple times (And don't bring up that BS about modifiers as they aren't Blessings, they can be provided or lowered due to Blessings.) can stack from different sources on a single target.

I bring it up because it is about to be very relevant. I direct everyone to look at the Telekinesis Psychic Discipline and specifically the Gate of Infinity blessing.

My question is thus: what would happen to a unit that has two Psykers attached to it, both with the Gate of Infinity power and sufficient warp charges, etc. where both Psykers cast Gate of Infinity? Would that unit not then follow the process for resolving the Gate of Infinity power, twice? Once for each casting?

After all, it is the same blessing being cast on the same target from different sources, but according to GoliothOnline and others with the same viewpoint, one would not be able to resolve the second Gate of Infinity power, or rather it would have no effect as the unit already had Gate of Infinity cast upon it before in the same turn.

Gate of Infinity doesn't say that it is cumulative with itself, as is being asked for by some people.

Frankly, I disagree with the notion that the blessing Gate of Infinity wouldn't affect the same unit twice.