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So as we all know GW who has been the emperor of wargaming over the last 20 years or so is starting to decline. Even tho amongst the wargaming community Warhammer is still going strong I have noticed people turning away from GW games and wargaming in general. How does everyone feel about the state of our hobby? Do you think it's on a major decline, or do you think because of the amount of new games out there it's going through a phase of evolution?

This is only speculations on my part and just looking at the current patterns occurring, but I say the Miniature Wargaming hobby is going through a sort of paradigm shift from a mostly Games Workshop-focused hobby to one that is more spread out to many other different games (I know other games have existed before during Games Workshop's 20 years, but it seems more recently a lot of other items are becoming more popular). Some degree it might be reaching what is a 'golden age' but if this so called 'decline' occurs faster, then it could spell trouble from Miniature Wargaming as it leaves a huge vacuum if the IP is not taken up. Again, only speculation on my part, so someone more in the know might have a better input.

I think wargaming is going towards becoming a healthy market place with many companies competing against each other and growing the market through the diversity of wargames too choose from. I still feel we have a ways to go yet, but the decline of GW is most certainly not a bad thing for wargaming as a whole in the short and long run.

With just GW dominating the market I am sure most will agree many others wargamers knew who might have been interested in wargaming never got into it due to thinking GW was only it. Even if GW in the last 20 years or so did not act like it does, just limiting wargaming to the 40k aesthetic and warhammer aesthetic means their are many who very likely will not get into wargaming just due too not liking the setting or aesthetic of the one wargaming company. now with the market finally growing and becoming somewhere near healthy more options and different aesthetics , let alone game systems , game scale and miniature scales really help get the wargaming market moving to catching up with card games and board games .

That has been my view point on the hobby my self. I have seen increase in other games such as Flames of War, Malifaux, Warmachine/Hordes, and Bolt Action. I've even noticed historical gamers outside of Flames and Bolt starting to appear at shops again! It's great to see some Napoleonics or even American Civil War games showing up at FLGS again. I've also noticed historical gamers playing games with wars that never got much love from Mini Wargaming before such as War of 1812, 7 Years War, Ancient Japan, 30 Years war, and Mexican-American War just to name a few. Also I've seen a few favorites making come backs such as Battletech!

I've been going to FLGS my whole life. i use to tag along with my Dad when he went and played his historical games, and I remember being in the miniatures room and seeing 4 different games going on at a time. I feel our hobby is reaching that point again, and has become more diverse in what it has to offer. Tho I appreciate what GW has done for the hobby serving as a gate way to a greater world. I think if it does come to an end that we have plenty of other games to fall back on and avoid a "dark age" of mini wargaming.

They got to where they are by being the best company in their field. They are for many reasons no longer the best company in their field. Either they improve or they drastically change their market share.

Honestly its probably better if the company goes under sooner than later and a different company buys them before they bleed away the 20 years of growing the brand through mismanagement.

Hopefully Hasbro will be able to buy them and set Games Workshop up as a subsidiary.

Even if GW is turned around they'll have left room in the market for several strong competitors like Privateer Press, Battlefront Miniatures, and Warlord Games.

As an avid mini wargamer who has never played a GW game, I think the current state of our hobby is better than ever.

There are more great games and great minis from more different companies than ever before.

Whatever period, scale, or strange warped fantasy you can think of, someone probably makes figures and/or rules for it.

Again, I have never played a GW game, and I have no desire to. For me, their decline is great, because people who had GW blinders on are now realizing there is a lot more to this hobby than just GW.

GW's dominance actually wasn't as long as you think. There were plenty of systems in the 80s, and more than a few popular grim dark sci fi systems in the 90s, with Warzone being the biggest name.

GW enjoyed a bit of a Hegemony from the late 90s through the the late 00s, when Privateer press really built up steam.

The overarching hobby is bigger now then ever, with a good mix of games sizes (skirmish/Company), scales, and genres. More options is good when there are more overall players.

Having been involved wargaing a bit over 20 years now, I'm pretty much in agreement with Polonius and Blooddave.

The hobby is in a real golden age as far as the number and quality of currently available games and miniatures. Gamers have never had so many choices (though there have always been lots of alternatives to GW) in so many different areas of gaming. Whether you want a big-name game that will have alot of traction at your FLGS or an obscure indie game, whether you want a premium boutique experience or to dabble in the bargain alternatives you've never had so many choices.

GW is of course still the big player, but it's really premature to say whether they're in permanent decline, or whether they're headed for a restructuring. With the decline in the visibility of GW via their retail stores, I don't think a GW decline or revival will determine the fate of the wargaming world.

 Polonius wrote:
GW's dominance actually wasn't as long as you think. There were plenty of systems in the 80s, and more than a few popular grim dark sci fi systems in the 90s, with Warzone being the biggest name.

GW enjoyed a bit of a Hegemony from the late 90s through the the late 00s, when Privateer press really built up steam.

The overarching hobby is bigger now then ever, with a good mix of games sizes (skirmish/Company), scales, and genres. More options is good when there are more overall players.

In the nineties, locally a least, the big fantasy game was TSR's Battle System - there is still a group that gets together and does battles using the game. (And the group is pretty big - but the battles are... weird. Typically there are five players on each side... each controlling a small group of units in a massive battle.)

I get the urge to play with that group about once a year - love the game, not so sure about having five or six players on a side....

The Auld Grump

The hobby itself has never been stronger.

GW's actions have turned people away, yes. But those that are still interested in wargaming have a whole host of wargames to turn to, and those games are not disappearing like they used to in the past. While none scratch quite the same huge battle itch that Games Workshops games do, they're still worthy alternatives.

There's plenty out there - large battles but small scale (like Flames of War, Dropzone Commander), naval/space fhip games (Dyspopian Wars, Firestorm Aramada), squad level skirmish (Warmachine/Hordes), model level skirmish (Infinity, Malifaux, Saga) and more I'm forgetting.

The wargaming industry is thriving since GW have started driving people away, because largely they're driving people to their competitors. GW is still most definitely the big fish, but they're losing ground, and their competitors are making up that ground.

If there was ever a golden age for this hobby, now is it.

I don't see more games now than in the 80's or 90's.
lesser known systems are easier to get info on because of Kickstarter and the interwebs , in the old days you had to scurry the small adds for lesser known systems

There have been many more games released between 2000-2014 than 1985-1999, many, many more (and I'm talking rulesets with a dedicated line of miniatures only)! I should know, I compiled a list of all fantasy and sci-fi wargames released over the past 4 decades. The Internet made it possible both production- and marketing-wise for anybody with a modicum of cash to release a tabletop wargame, for better or worse.

How did you get that information?

All, in all, I'd say the hobby is in great shape. Lots of companies, great choice, and different genres, and of course, a MASSIVE improvement in paints.

I break out in a cold sweat when I think back to the quality of paints available in the 1980s/90s compared to today.

It seems to me as though miniwargaming is a hobby that'll be growing in the near future. It might just be my area, but a bunch of new people have been playing lately, myself included. I got tired of video games and MTG a few months ago and wanted to find a hobby where what I owned was physical merchandise instead of data on a computer and I wanted it to be more than MTG cards which are really just paper. GW was far too expensive though and I was happy to see that there were other companies with equally healthy player bases. I finally settled down with warmachine and don't regret the hundreds I've spent in a few months on these minis.

I don't think the miniature wargaming hobby is in any sort of decline, rather the opposite. I think people are starting to move between systems, often playing multiple games at once. It's easy to collect a 35-point Warmachine force while at the same time adding to your Blood Angels, or vice versa. I myself dropped GW in 2003, then ended up getting into Warmachine, and am now in the process of building an ork force. Add in games like Malifaux, which are even smaller skirmish-based games, and you have what seems like a win-win-win situation for everybody. (Except maybe GW, whose advertising mindset still seems to be stuck in the mid-90's with a "We're the only miniatures company on the block" mentality.)

There have been many more games released between 2000-2014 than 1985-1999, many, many more (and I'm talking rulesets with a dedicated line of miniatures only)!

Keep in mind though - games with a dedicated line of miniatures are a relatively new thing.

Throughout the 1980s and most the 1990s you had miniature companies that created miniatures and you had game companies that created rules. There were exceptions of course, but largely the two aspects were separate. Now though, you read comments quite often were people can't seem to wrap their heads around buying miniatures without rules and using them with rules without miniatures (of which there are a lot of options on both sides of that equation).

The general health is pretty good all around now though. People are moving back into the mindset held in the 1980s where they bought cool miniatures and well written rules - and it doesn't matter nearly as much if they are the same company...just that they offer the style and type of game that they want to play.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

There have been many more games released between 2000-2014 than 1985-1999, many, many more (and I'm talking rulesets with a dedicated line of miniatures only)!

Keep in mind though - games with a dedicated line of miniatures are a relatively new thing.

Throughout the 1980s and most the 1990s you had miniature companies that created miniatures and you had game companies that created rules. There were exceptions of course, but largely the two aspects were separate. Now though, you read comments quite often were people can't seem to wrap their heads around buying miniatures without rules and using them with rules without miniatures (of which there are a lot of options on both sides of that equation).

The general health is pretty good all around now though. People are moving back into the mindset held in the 1980s where they bought cool miniatures and well written rules - and it doesn't matter nearly as much if they are the same company...just that they offer the style and type of game that they want to play.

I think you guys are both partially right. Games and minis were largely separate until the mid 80's. However, games with minis have been pretty prevalent ever since the late 80's when GW dropped in with Warhammer and FASA brought out Battletech. Even early warhammer had it's competition (Fantasy Warriors...) and there were plenty of competitors to Rogue Trader before (starguard, laserburn) and within a couple years (warzone, killzone, etc) of it's release.

However, both games with and without self-contained miniature lines have prospered since then. Historical gamers have never bought into the idea that minis and figures should come from the same creator and that continues to be the case. Lastly, I don't have numbers to back it up, but I'd bet that even sci-fi and fantasy games without a specific miniatures line have continued to pick up steam and are somewhat more numerous than in the past.

All this only adds to the many wonderful options that gamers today have. There are miniatures catering to every style and rulesets designed for every type of gaming experience.

Finding rulesets without dedicated miniatures is a bit more tricky nowadays, as they're usually self-published as pdfs, but there's still plenty of them around, I'd say as many as in the '80s. I'm thinking SF, fantasy and horror here; historicals are a different kettle of fish.

 -DE- wrote:
Finding rulesets without dedicated miniatures is a bit more tricky nowadays, as they're usually self-published as pdfs, but there's still plenty of them around, I'd say as many as in the '80s. I'm thinking SF, fantasy and horror here; historicals are a different kettle of fish.

Many of them are self published PDFs, but I think that's a good thing. I'd rather not invest too much $ in a ruleset that might or might not end up getting alot of use.

The only tricky thing is finding them at your FLGS, but that's not a new thing as with few exceptions, your average FLGS has never been the place to go to find the more independent rules and games.

Let me know what kind of fantsy or SF ruleset you're looking for and I'd be happy to direct you to a few viable choices. I've got a bit* of an obsession with such things.



*Well, perhaps more than a "bit"....

 Mr. Grey wrote:
I think people are starting to move between systems, often playing multiple games at once.

To me, the idea of only playing one game seems crazy. On a regular basis (at least once a month) I play:

Deadzone
SAGA
Dreadball
Battletech

And less than once a month I play:

Chain Of Command
Full Thrust
Gruntz

I have full painted forces for all those games, usually more than one, and I have minis on my painting table for Warpath right now, but have not yet played.

Guy that owns FFG did an interview [can't remember for the life of me where I saw it] saying that he thought tabletop wargaming was in a really healthy state. Interest in fantasy stuff like Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings, along with computer games based on TT games, has brought loads of people into the hobby and he's looking to expand ranges and introduce new games.

Warmahorde and Infinity seem to be growing really well, with well thought out business models.

So, GW may be losing market share, but that doesn't mean the market as a whole is shrinking, and could [perhaps, based upon FFG article] be growing.

 Eilif wrote:
Many of them are self published PDFs, but I think that's a good thing. I'd rather not invest too much $ in a ruleset that might or might not end up getting alot of use.

The only tricky thing is finding them at your FLGS, but that's not a new thing as with few exceptions, your average FLGS has never been the place to go to find the more independent rules and games.

Let me know what kind of fantsy or SF ruleset you're looking for and I'd be happy to direct you to a few viable choices. I've got a bit* of an obsession with such things.

I never claimed it was a bad thing, on the contrary. But it makes them harder to find in various databases, because not all of them are filed. Older, printed games are much easier to find info on and are well cataloged.

 -DE- wrote:

I never claimed it was a bad thing, on the contrary. But it makes them harder to find in various databases, because not all of them are filed. Older, printed games are much easier to find info on and are well cataloged.

That's true. It is awfully hard to know what's out there when it might only be on someone's own website or buried at Wargames Vault. You kind of have to be involved at a forum or club that discusses such things to hear about many of these games.

Richard Clarke from Too Fat Lardies discusses the economics of print vs PDF for small publishers in this forum post: http://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=852&hilit=pdf#p7428

TL;DR - For products that have both print and PDF, they are seeing many more PDF sales than they used to, 3 to 1 PDF to print. This makes it even more unfeasable to make a print version.

Keep in mind this is a historical rules publisher. Their demographic tends to skew older. I would imagine the younger crowd is even more comfortable with PDF than the old folks.

 -Loki- wrote:
The hobby itself has never been stronger.

GW's actions have turned people away, yes. But those that are still interested in wargaming have a whole host of wargames to turn to, and those games are not disappearing like they used to in the past. While none scratch quite the same huge battle itch that Games Workshops games do, they're still worthy alternatives.

There's plenty out there - large battles but small scale (like Flames of War, Dropzone Commander), naval/space fhip games (Dyspopian Wars, Firestorm Aramada), squad level skirmish (Warmachine/Hordes), model level skirmish (Infinity, Malifaux, Saga) and more I'm forgetting.

The wargaming industry is thriving since GW have started driving people away, because largely they're driving people to their competitors. GW is still most definitely the big fish, but they're losing ground, and their competitors are making up that ground.

If there was ever a golden age for this hobby, now is it.

I was going to write a post, but then saw someone had written it already!

I will add, really you have to think the Internet for all of this - you no longer have to worry about not being able to purchase items, find the answer to a rule, even find people to play against and organise games at a local club.

In fact, the only criticism I could possibly make is that there are too many games these days! I simply don't have the time in the day to paint all of the stuff I would like to, try all of the games I would like to. If you don't have substantial will-power, you end up with a massive pile of unpainted stuff that will probably never have its destiny fulfilled..

 Pacific wrote:
In fact, the only criticism I could possibly make is that there are too many games these days! I simply don't have the time in the day to paint all of the stuff I would like to, try all of the games I would like to. If you don't have substantial will-power, you end up with a massive pile of unpainted stuff that will probably never have its destiny fulfilled..

Not much to add - though there is this theory:



Actually a bit to add...

Our local group plays new rules at least once a month. Might be entirely new rules - or just rules which don't get brought out to play very often. We then have 1 set of rules that we play 2 or 3 times a month. The fourth week it alternates based on who is hosting game nights.

The miniatures are largely independent from the games we play. It is actually pretty rare for us to use the official miniatures for anything at all. Since most of us are modelers as much as gamers - we don't really see the point of being tied down to a specific set of miniatures when there are so many interesting lines and individual figures available...not to mention the custom stuff we have done over the years. It also allows us to actually forge a real narrative within our ongoing campaigns. One week you may be in mass combat, the next week your command staff is leading a boarding party or infiltration squad. The same miniatures across several different rules really does let you tell a story.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
In fact, the only criticism I could possibly make is that there are too many games these days! I simply don't have the time in the day to paint all of the stuff I would like to, try all of the games I would like to. If you don't have substantial will-power, you end up with a massive pile of unpainted stuff that will probably never have its destiny fulfilled..

Not much to add - though there is this theory:

SNIP

I'm only 22 but at my current rate of painting, 147 years sounds about right for me...

I think I may well be the first person to live to over 200 with that.

Actually a store near me is having a 20% off everything sale today, I may well add another 20 years right there...

I'm also hoping Hasbro buys GW. That way the elitist richards will finally have to come to terms with just playing a boxed table top game.