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While I applaud women in the hobby/game, I find that the vast majority of players I see are men. I've tried to get my wife into the game and while she likes the idea of Salamanders and flaming things, it's been a no-go for me. My friend (the guy I split my first Dark Vengeance box set with) has also tried to get his long time girlfriend to play and it bores her to tears. She at least likes to paint units/models and even though she doesn't know the game has enough sense on tactics to help him with a few games against me here and there...

What are some of the experiences that you guys have come across with female players? Is there something about the hobby or the community that is a deterrent? Are you guys seeing more women players? If you're a female player, what has got you to start and continue playing the game?

Personally, I'm going to try to get my wife to paint a few figures. After she paints a few and grows attached to them, I'm going to get her to play a few games then, hopefully, apocalypse games!

I feel some of the gaming places are unwelcoming to females. I brought my wife in with me while I was model shopping and over heard a group talking about how useless women are in movies unless the show their "goods". My wife turned to me and said "And that's why no women are in here, I'll be in the car until your done."

A friend of mine ran into a woman of middling skill whose strategy for winning tourneys was to play in a low-cut top and giggle incessantly. (She placed pretty well, from what I understand.)

I've only ever seen two female players myself. A mother and daughter who played with their husband and brother. They'd join single table six-to-eight person events at conventions and then act as a team to make sure they placed first through fourth. Then they'd split the prizes amongst each other. Some of the most loathsome behavior I've ever seen in a game.

Never ran into a woman who plays the game habitually, although there were two who used to be part of our gaming club back when I was younger (before I played 40k). They quit long ago, though.

Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

The boob armor doesn't help either.

 Vash108 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

The boob armor doesn't help either.

In my experience women do not mind boob armor as much as they do armor that shows off skin. Anecdotes mean piss so...

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

I'm not so sure that's the actual impediment here, though. I've met more females who liked the setting but had no interest in the game than those who were interested in the game but put off by the setting.


Not arguing that the setting couldn't be less male-oriented... just that I don't think the setting is what is generally putting off potential female players. From my experience, women just tend to be not as interested in strategy games.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

The boob armor doesn't help either.

In my experience women do not mind boob armor as much as they do armor that shows off skin. Anecdotes mean piss so...

In my experience both are held in the same disdain. Boob armor just makes no sense to me, why have armor that makes it easier to strike you dead?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

I'm not so sure that's the actual impediment here, though. I've met more females who liked the setting but had no interest in the game than those who were interested in the game but put off by the setting.


Not arguing that the setting couldn't be less male-oriented... just that I don't think the setting is what is generally putting off potential female players. From my experience, women just tend to be not as interested in strategy games.

Going to have to say that is a wee bit sexist. Because I know plenty but feel the environment is unwelcoming.

Well, we are all dealing with small sample sizes. It's difficult to tell why males are overrepresented in the Tabletop gaming market without larger surveys. I personally believe it's a cultural thing as women seemed to be actively discouraged from taking interest in anything not accepted by the majority.

 insaniak wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

I'm not so sure that's the actual impediment here, though. I've met more females who liked the setting but had no interest in the game than those who were interested in the game but put off by the setting.


Not arguing that the setting couldn't be less male-oriented... just that I don't think the setting is what is generally putting off potential female players. From my experience, women just tend to be not as interested in strategy games.

Society has created a divide between what boys should like and what girls should like. Luckily, such values are malleable as the huge upswing in female internet users and gamers show.

Firstly, GW needs to advertise and end this "advertising is bad" nonsense that has curtailed GW for decades, secondly, GW needs to make an effort to make the game more than just "white men in space fight gribbly monsters and crazy white men in space".

 Kain wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

I'm not so sure that's the actual impediment here, though. I've met more females who liked the setting but had no interest in the game than those who were interested in the game but put off by the setting.


Not arguing that the setting couldn't be less male-oriented... just that I don't think the setting is what is generally putting off potential female players. From my experience, women just tend to be not as interested in strategy games.

Society has created a divide between what boys should like and what girls should like. Luckily, such values are malleable as the huge upswing in female internet users and gamers show.

Firstly, GW needs to advertise and end this "advertising is bad" nonsense that has curtailed GW for decades, secondly, GW needs to make an effort to make the game more than just "white men in space fight gribbly monsters and crazy white men in space".

This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.

I always thought boob armour is not specific to 40k. Many other things have it. Games, movies, book covers, paintings/artwork. It's probably too widespread and having boob armour is just 40k doing the "usual".

The game involves warfare in a dark science fantasy dystopia where the equivalent of modern soccer hooligans are the comic relief. That's not a narrative found in books and movies commonly tailored for women's tastes.

Women are free agents, they play, or don't, because that's what they want to do. Some play (I know one) some paint (I know an art student) and some just have other interests.

Changing the game to make it more "acceptable" to women (presuming that anyone actually knows what would be acceptable to them) would likely make it less attractive to the people who have been the loyal customers for many years.

My fiancee enjoys painting models, but has absolutely zero interest in the game itself. She also has no interest in the setting.

Her favorites are females, and contrary to everyone else's experience so far, she likes the highly-sexualized ones. Some of the stuff she buys on her own, once in a blue moon when the mood strikes her, would be stuff I'd not put on the table due to people thinking I was a creep for doing so.

I think it's a mixture of things. There's the fact that when you get a bunch of guys in a room they tend to become even more guy-ish, which is even more offputting to women.

I do also think women are less inclined to want to play with little toy soldiers in the first place.

Then you also have the fact it's a game made by dudes primarily for dudes. You can't blame a guy for making a game that would appeal to him. I'd rather that than some insincere attempt to appease a demographic they themselves do no belong in to (I feel like we are already struggling with a disconnect between GW and the consumers).

In all my years playing I've only met a few women who played. One was a really nice lass, the other was a total attention whore who used to complain about getting too much attention but then acted in a way to draw more attention to herself. The couple of other gaming girls I know I didn't really know all that well to comment on, lol.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
The game involves warfare in a dark science fantasy dystopia where the equivalent of modern soccer hooligans are the comic relief. That's not a narrative found in books and movies commonly tailored for women's tastes.

Women are free agents, they play, or don't, because that's what they want to do. Some play (I know one) some paint (I know an art student) and some just have other interests.

Changing the game to make it more "acceptable" to women (presuming that anyone actually knows what would be acceptable to them) would likely make it less attractive to the people who have been the loyal customers for many years.

You don't really have to change much.

Just put out more female models for armies that can have women like Eldar of either varieties, the Tau, and the Guard/Inquisition, then make more female special characters. Hell, even the Necrons can have women (the leader of the Maynarkh Dynasty is a woman) and they could use some more special characters anyway.

Of course nonsense like all knight pilots being male has to go. It's not as ingrained as the space marine gender restriction and serves no purpose besides "no gurlz allowed!"

There's nothing all that special about 40k here. There are plenty of male-dominated things that tend to stay male-dominated over time (like lumberjacking and cigar clubs, for example).

It's just basic sociology. If you show up at a social activity, and you're different from everybody else there, you're going to feel more uncomfortable, and less likely to return. Given that there's only one group, people can talk and behave in ways idiosyncratic to the particular members of the group, and not check what they do or say because there are going to be people who will be offended, or won't get it, because they're not "in" on it.

To put it more concretely, for a woman to get into playing 40k as part of a club, they have to climb the considerable hurdle of learning all the 40k jargon, and then have to put up with men behaving the way they do when there aren't women around (namely, in ways in which a woman is also not going to be able to interact). That's two language barriers before you even consider other social cues and peer pressure forces.

It's not to say in any way that women can't do 40k, it's to say that one is about as likely to get involved as me, in all my pasty white midwestern lutheran background is to get in with a group of black guys and start freestyle rapping.

Eminem did it, so, you know, it's possible, and I'm sure there are "competitive" 40k players who are also women, but it doesn't seem very likely.

Of course, what to do about it is an entirely other matter.

 Kain wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
The game involves warfare in a dark science fantasy dystopia where the equivalent of modern soccer hooligans are the comic relief. That's not a narrative found in books and movies commonly tailored for women's tastes.

Women are free agents, they play, or don't, because that's what they want to do. Some play (I know one) some paint (I know an art student) and some just have other interests.

Changing the game to make it more "acceptable" to women (presuming that anyone actually knows what would be acceptable to them) would likely make it less attractive to the people who have been the loyal customers for many years.

You don't really have to change much.

Just put out more female models for armies that can have women like Eldar of either varieties, the Tau, and the Guard/Inquisition, then make more female special characters. Hell, even the Necrons can have women (the leader of the Maynarkh Dynasty is a woman) and they could use some more special characters anyway.

Of course nonsense like all knight pilots being male has to go. It's not as ingrained as the space marine gender restriction and serves no purpose besides "no gurlz allowed!"

Eldar (and Elves in WHFB) do have quite a few female models, they just tend to look like dudes with boobs more than women.

Also, female models are harder to paint, lol.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
In my experience women do not mind boob armor as much as they do armor that shows off skin. Anecdotes mean piss so...

I've even gotten advice from a female friend on how to paint a 'boob armor' model it better. As nerdy as that friend is, she doesn't play 40k, though she did play Football as a girl, so felt she had some knowledge on the aesthetics of Eldar shoulder pads.

I hate promoting people and videos on the internet, but as this question is interesting to me (I have a 5 year-old neice who is fascinated by my models and the game in general. Seems she wants her own Orks already) I tracked down at least some advice on the subject of getting women into Wargames. Unfortunately it looks like the video I was going to post has been taken off of her feed, so I'll just summarize what the poster said.

It's easiest to get women into the custom painting and crafting side of that, as everybody enjoys expressing their personal tastes. (Beware this may lead to Pink Armies, which I think is awesome). Don't beat them over the head with the rules or overwhelm them with fluff. As always, individual tastes vary, but when you're drowning in names, dates and events it really makes the story not interesting. Or when there are so many rules that you have no idea what you're doing, you feel out of control and just plain confused. That's not a fun game to play.

If you're looking to get a girlfriend, wife or whatever into the game, start with a simplified, streamlined version of the game at first. Take out some of the extra rules and add them in slowly over several games. Let her win some games. Loosing every time isn't fun. Lastly be patient. Some people just aren't into certain things, but most often a wife or long-time girlfriend will want to at least try it out and check it out, just because you're into it and it's something else to do with you. This doesn't mean that every woman will enjoy it and stick with it, as I stated earlier; everybody has their own tastes, but you are most likely to get her to enjoy the game if you take it slowly and find out how she wants to play.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
The game involves warfare in a dark science fantasy dystopia where the equivalent of modern soccer hooligans are the comic relief. That's not a narrative found in books and movies commonly tailored for women's tastes.

Women are free agents, they play, or don't, because that's what they want to do. Some play (I know one) some paint (I know an art student) and some just have other interests.

Changing the game to make it more "acceptable" to women (presuming that anyone actually knows what would be acceptable to them) would likely make it less attractive to the people who have been the loyal customers for many years.

You don't really have to change much.

Just put out more female models for armies that can have women like Eldar of either varieties, the Tau, and the Guard/Inquisition, then make more female special characters. Hell, even the Necrons can have women (the leader of the Maynarkh Dynasty is a woman) and they could use some more special characters anyway.

Of course nonsense like all knight pilots being male has to go. It's not as ingrained as the space marine gender restriction and serves no purpose besides "no gurlz allowed!"

Eldar (and Elves in WHFB) do have quite a few female models, they just tend to look like dudes with boobs more than women.

Also, female models are harder to paint, lol.

To my knowledge, Jain Zar is the only female Eldar special character with rules.

 Vash108 wrote:
Going to have to say that is a wee bit sexist. Because I know plenty but feel the environment is unwelcoming.

It's not even remotely sexist.

I don't have a problem with women playing wargames, nor do I think that they shouldn't. It's just been my experience over the years that women don't seem to be as interested in wargames as opposed to other types of boardgames.


I agree though that the attitude of many male gamers towards women in the hobby certainly doesn't help the situation.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.

Somehow I missed this post. I'd love for my army to be 50/50. I think it just makes more sense that way, with the Eldar. There are even canonical matriarchal craftworlds, but not the models to represent them. I'd also love a mixed Tau Army, and plan on buying extra Shadowsun models just so I can use her head on Fire Warrior Shas'Ui(s). Needless to say this plan is waaay in back for several reasons (price, have to finish current Eldar Models first....)

 TheCustomLime wrote:
This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.

It's not really a need for more female characters specifically... it comes down more to how those characters who are there are portrayed.

You don't specifically need girly dolls for the girls to be interested, any more than guys are only interested in all-male armies.

Outside of Sisters (and thus also ignoring Space Marines for having any fault here) how may female Named Characters are there? Jain Zar. Lelith Hesperax. Lady Malys. Commander Shadowsun. Four in the armies I'm very familiar with. There's at least one or two more in the AM Codex, right?

Edit: Oh! The Masque of Slaanesh counts, I think.

 Farseer Morlengal wrote:
Outside of Sisters (and thus also ignoring Space Marines for having any fault here) how may female Named Characters are there? Jain Zar. Lelith Hesperax. Lady Malys. Commander Shadowsun. Four in the armies I'm very familiar with. There's at least one or two more in the AM Codex, right?

There are no named female characters in the AM book.

We have St.Celestine, the Masque of Slaanesh, and erm...

 insaniak wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.

It's not really a need for more female characters specifically... it comes down more to how those characters who are there are portrayed.

You don't specifically need girly dolls for the girls to be interested, any more than guys are only interested in all-male armies.

I agree. However, there is a massive lack of female characters and models that I'd like to see addressed. Like Kain said, end the 40k Sausagefest.

But you are right in that the portrayal of female characters is... certainly not all that good. Look at the cover of the new Damocles rule book. Here is Shadowsun, one of the few female characters in the game, in a situation where she is defenseless against the big macho supermen.

Just checked the Grey Knights Codex on a whim. Inquisitor Valeria! We're up to 7!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.

It's not really a need for more female characters specifically... it comes down more to how those characters who are there are portrayed.

You don't specifically need girly dolls for the girls to be interested, any more than guys are only interested in all-male armies.

I agree. However, there is a massive lack of female characters and models that I'd like to see addressed. Like Kain said, end the 40k Sausagefest.

But you are right in that the portrayal of female characters is... certainly not all that good. Look at the cover of the new Damocles rule book. Here is Shadowsun, one of the few female characters in the game, in a situation where she is defenseless against the big macho supermen.

And I hope she kicks their ass... ah who am I kidding? She probably barely escaped with her life. Probably lost more of her 'sisters' as well.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.

It's not really a need for more female characters specifically... it comes down more to how those characters who are there are portrayed.

You don't specifically need girly dolls for the girls to be interested, any more than guys are only interested in all-male armies.

I agree. However, there is a massive lack of female characters and models that I'd like to see addressed. Like Kain said, end the 40k Sausagefest.

But you are right in that the portrayal of female characters is... certainly not all that good. Look at the cover of the new Damocles rule book. Here is Shadowsun, one of the few female characters in the game, in a situation where she is defenseless against the big macho supermen.

I don't really think that qualifies as sexist, so much. Many of the iconic pieces of the genre feature a hero being menaced by a threat that appears like it will destroy them. The hopeless battle is kind of 40k's thing.

Images like these are far more sexist.

As for the Imperial Gua *Ahem* Astra Militarum ... there should be more female models. It doesn't seem like the AM discriminate based on sex: men, women, as long as they can shoot a las-rifle, they are all meat in the grinder. Heck, back in the 3rd Ed Imperial Guard Codex there was a two page Administratis Requisitionem document which depicted a number of worlds that raise regiments for the IG. Some of them are quite well known, being the official ones that GW was pushing, one of them, (the Death Korps of Krieg) were mentioned for the first time and eventually became FW product, and the rest are mainly just stuff to fill out the ranks. One world mentioned was Xenonia and whereas the other pictures were all male, this world had a woman. Under that picture was the following, "Fierce fighters. No mercy. Serve the Emperor well." One can only speculate if Xenonia is a matriarchy, or have an extreme gender imbalance for some reason.

While I've met female gamers before, and there are a good number of them at the current FLGS I play at, I've yet to meet one for either 40k or WHFB. Also, while the store also hosts Warmachine/Hordes and Infinity, none of the mini gamers are women. Oddly, while in the past I expected most female gamers would be role-players, currently we have more female board gamers than female RPGers.

 insaniak wrote:
It's not even remotely sexist.

I don't have a problem with women playing wargames, nor do I think that they shouldn't. It's just been my experience over the years that women don't seem to be as interested in wargames as opposed to other types of boardgames.


I agree though that the attitude of many male gamers towards women in the hobby certainly doesn't help the situation.

I don't think there's anything that would. I simply think tabletop wargaming with plastic soldiermens isn't something most women are interested in. Bully for the ones who are, by all means, but I think the notion that the hobby could hit 50/50 parity with a concerted PC push is fallacious.