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Hello. o/ I exist.

TheCustomLime wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

The boob armor doesn't help either.

In my experience women do not mind boob armor as much as they do armor that shows off skin. Anecdotes mean piss so...

Indeed. I must admit I am not a fan of either. Although in fact I don't mind really skimpy gear in some cases where it actually has a plausible reason (E.g Lelith Hesperax) but sometimes it does get rather stupid.

insaniak wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.

It's not really a need for more female characters specifically... it comes down more to how those characters who are there are portrayed.

You don't specifically need girly dolls for the girls to be interested, any more than guys are only interested in all-male armies.

Yuuuup. CSM work very well for me, and I don't even have any Slaaneshi whatever-gendered marines. The fact Marines are all male does not really bother me, it somehow fits their theme.

Ancestral Hamster wrote:As for the Imperial Gua *Ahem* Astra Militarum ... there should be more female models. It doesn't seem like the AM discriminate based on sex: men, women, as long as they can shoot a las-rifle, they are all meat in the grinder. Heck, back in the 3rd Ed Imperial Guard Codex there was a two page Administratis Requisitionem document which depicted a number of worlds that raise regiments for the IG. Some of them are quite well known, being the official ones that GW was pushing, one of them, (the Death Korps of Krieg) were mentioned for the first time and eventually became FW product, and the rest are mainly just stuff to fill out the ranks. One world mentioned was Xenonia and whereas the other pictures were all male, this world had a woman. Under that picture was the following, "Fierce fighters. No mercy. Serve the Emperor well." One can only speculate if Xenonia is a matriarchy, or have an extreme gender imbalance for some reason.

While I've met female gamers before, and there are a good number of them at the current FLGS I play at, I've yet to meet one for either 40k or WHFB. Also, while the store also hosts Warmachine/Hordes and Infinity, none of the mini gamers are women. Oddly, while in the past I expected most female gamers would be role-players, currently we have more female board gamers than female RPGers.

Why there are no guardswomen is something I don't really understand. Maybe it's harder to sculpt than Cadian gorillas.

There's a girl who plays at my local store, sure there aren't many but it isn't exclusive.

My wife sort of enjoys the occasional game of LOTR, especially as she sees how much the kids enjoy it, but she has no interest in 40k. And the stores are a massive turnoff for women of all ages, mainly because of the aforementioned sausagefest fluff and the desperate misogyny that follows many sub-30 males around.

I'm not sure it can be fixed by GW. Only players raising their daughters resisting traditional gender roles will help.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why there are no guardswomen is something I don't really understand. Maybe it's harder to sculpt than Cadian gorillas.

I'm not jumping to GW's defense here, but I think sculpting female models must be harder than male models. The more delicate feminine features are much more prone to looking flat out wrong if sculpted badly. Also painting female models to a table top standard is harder, I don't really lament not having many female models because they're much more of a pain in the arse to paint.

My gf of 3 years started playing a year ago when I got back into the game. Inspiring creativity definitely goes a long way. She started with an old marine army I had and kinda got bored of them so I suggested dark eldar and she's kept with it. She likes them, tyranids, and chaos. Anyways, starting with small games and kill teams to learn basic rules helps. Most of it seems to be just picking the right army as well. As far as modelling goes though she does hate the female characters that show alot of skin. Since then they have hired a female at the local gw store so maybe they are trying to promote that its okay for women too. When she first started working there she had no clue about anything and hadn't started an army even. Idk we'll see if this increases the amount of female players in my area.

 ruprecht wrote:
I'm not sure it can be fixed by GW. Only players raising their daughters resisting traditional gender roles will help.

Funny thing is, I have a niece and a nephew, neither of them are raised in such a way that you'd think they're reinforcing gender roles... but the girl is so much a girl and the boy is so much a boy even as tiny tots. Definitely there's some societal reinforcement of roles, but I also think there are some definite differences in psychology that make boys more prone to want to play table top war games and video games like battlefield or call of duty or even strategy games like warcraft. Not to say that a female can't enjoy those things or that there's anything wrong with a female enjoying those things, just sometimes I think the attitude that we should have 50/50 male/female in all areas of life is just as wrong as having a 5/95 at times.

My previous GF had her own Hero Quest from when she was little. She was moderately interested in playing (even ordered all her own daemon army online). Then one day she stopped into GW to buy paint, and was accosted by a redshirt who weirded her out so much that she refused to ever go back. Exclaiming that the shop was "full of nerds". Which in fairness... it is.

Too long didn't read so I'm going to assume no one mentioned the most obvious reason women do not play this hobby.

In my 15+ years of table top gaming I have noticed that the majority of players severely lack a sense of hygiene. The males tend to act rather foolishly talking in a manner which is not very inviting to the opposite sex. Honestly I have trouble half the time playing with some people because they are so disgusting. Then of course there is the fun fact that whenever a woman does enter the room half the guys act like they have never seen a woman before and the other half tries to act macho. Then the creepy staring...why would a woman want to endure that.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Funny thing is, I have a niece and a nephew, neither of them are raised in such a way that you'd think they're reinforcing gender roles... but the girl is so much a girl and the boy is so much a boy even as tiny tots. Definitely there's some societal reinforcement of roles, but I also think there are some definite differences in psychology that make boys more prone to want to play table top war games and video games like battlefield or call of duty or even strategy games like warcraft. Not to say that a female can't enjoy those things or that there's anything wrong with a female enjoying those things, just sometimes I think the attitude that we should have 50/50 male/female in all areas of life is just as wrong as having a 5/95 at times.

You're quite right, and my kids are to some extent the same. The boy likes lego and 40k and hitting stuff with swords, and the girl like Frozen and pink and elastic band bracelets and shooting nerf arrows at her brother. And we try hard not to pigeonhole them, they just come out differently. I'm not suggesting there's no difference, but there is definitely a societal norm that will shift (not to 50/50, but in that direction). I'm more enlightened in that way than my parents were, and they were more so than their own parents.

Reality is that tabletop has stayed niche for 25 years while computer gaming went mainstream, and the gender imbalance is unlikely to alter much until that changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disturb3d wrote:
Since then they have hired a female at the local gw store so maybe they are trying to promote that its okay for women too. When she first started working there she had no clue about anything and hadn't started an army even. Idk we'll see if this increases the amount of female players in my area.

I'd like to think that was in order to attract a female customer base, but I suspect it's to attract more teenage boys.

It's definitely a win/win for gw... Since then there has always been a group of 4-5 guys in there every time I go in.

 Goldphish wrote:
In my 15+ years of table top gaming I have noticed that the majority of players severely lack a sense of hygiene. The males tend to act rather foolishly talking in a manner which is not very inviting to the opposite sex. Honestly I have trouble half the time playing with some people because they are so disgusting. Then of course there is the fun fact that whenever a woman does enter the room half the guys act like they have never seen a woman before and the other half tries to act macho. Then the creepy staring...why would a woman want to endure that.

I remember that from the days where my local GW still was worth actually paying a visit every now and then.

Yay for my new meta having people able to take showers, I guess?

Maybe for the same reason there are not many women in the army and, say, chess. Men and women have different interests and abilities. That's nature.

 koooaei wrote:
Maybe for the same reason there are not many women in the army and, say, chess. Men and women have different interests and abilities. That's nature.

It really is not that simple.

Yeah, I'll agree with the previous posts in saying that it's a combination of an unwelcoming culture and wider gender socialisation that deter women from the hobby. Of coure, the latter has improved and still is improving, though the former is still very much an issue. Though I think that it's also steadily improving.

I remember reading a really interesting post on another forum about how a someone had surveyed female 40K players, and found that all or most of them felt unwelcome in 40K due to male players treating them differently. They also found that female palyers were happiest when they formed their own little groups. Really wish I could find it again, it was interesting, if a bit disheartening to read.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Hello. o/ I exist.

I notice you're from Sweden. I hear they're quite good in terms of gender equality? I'm curious, do you see many other female wargamers around?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Funny thing is, I have a niece and a nephew, neither of them are raised in such a way that you'd think they're reinforcing gender roles... but the girl is so much a girl and the boy is so much a boy even as tiny tots.

Well, that's not the only factor though. Society at large is also going to be a big influence, stuff like TV and other people. Additionally, parents can treat their kids differently based upon gender without even realising it. For example, a study found that parents hold their babies differently depending on which gender it is. So even when you think that the environment's influence has been ruled out, it may not have been.

That's not to say that biology has zero influence in this, it certainly does. But the influence of the environment certainly shouldn't be discarded.

Gender differences are not only inspired by society. Do you know that simple experiment with toys? Where little kids are given a set of different toys. Dolls and cars. And the majority of girls pick dolls to play with while boys pick cars. Noone tells them what to pick. Noone taught them before - they're too young to be influenced this way. That's just genetics. And it affects us for the whole life. So, i think that girls generally don't like strategy games with bloody brutal hursh settings for a reason. Yep, some girls do like it and it's perfectly fine. But the majority doesn't no matter what you do. That's just the exact same reason why most men don't like emotional soap operas and find them boring.

Anywayz, no matter what you think bout it - don't try to force someone into the hobby if they don't find it interesting in the first place. People are just different and gender differences apply also.

My girlfriend doesn't find this game amazing but likes painting models. We're also planning on modelling some extra parts that the army currently needs using poly-clay (don't know how's that modelling plastic called in english).

It's not the game. It's the often-toxic community. This is as true in comic books, RPGs, and video games... basically anything that is "geek culture". There's a very strong undercurrent of misogyny and sexism in a lot of geek cultures, not in every small local group, to be sure, and some cultures seem to attract a larger percentage than others...

... but, hell, just read any of the news about various conventions for comics, games, whatever, over the past couple of years. Even industry conventions that aren't really open to the public.

 koooaei wrote:
Gender differences are not only inspired by society. Do you know that simple experiment with toys? Where little kids are given a set of different toys. Dolls and cars. And the majority of girls pick dolls to play with while boys pick cars. Noone tells them what to pick. Noone taught them before - they're too young to be influenced this way. That's just genetics. And it affects us for the whole life. So, i think that girls generally don't like strategy games with bloody brutal hursh settings for a reason. Yep, some girls do like it and it's perfectly fine. But the majority doesn't no matter what you do. That's just the exact same reason why most men don't like emotional soap operas and find them boring.

Such experiment is worthless unless the children have lived in a gender neutral society (which pretty much do not exist.) Gender conditioning starts from the birth. (Not saying that genetics do not affect preferences, merely that this experiment doesn't prove it.)

 Inkubas wrote:

What are some of the experiences that you guys have come across with female players? Is there something about the hobby or the community that is a deterrent? Are you guys seeing more women players? If you're a female player, what has got you to start and continue playing the game?

Immature guys, thinking that women should play nids or eldar ,and no other army and always lose . I don't think there are more women doing table top games then there did 2 years ago . I started , because my boyfriend started too and we needed a fourth player to play. I already played MtG , so I wasn't totaly shocked by the table top gaming community . I think it started getting a lot better when I found out about other systems . WM is more balanced and I found out that I like skirmish systems better. Infinity gave me a ton of models I realy like the looks of , unlike the GW AM models.

Part of the problem I have with wargaming is the tendency towards 1v1 games. I like computer games and have since a young age and 1v1 has never retained my interest for anything. Wargames, though, just seem to typically have a multiplayer mode tacked on the tend if that, without much thought. Maintaining interest in wargames is a constant struggle for everything I like about them to overcome that fundamental flaw.

For what it's worth, I came to tabletop wargames by way of Hero Quest too.

And women already have the best faction in 40k: Tyranids.

In literally every case, as in 100% on the dot, of my personal experiences with women in gaming:

a: They are extremely disinterested in the numbers and mechanics. They don't want to think about which option presents better odds, or what the rolls necessary will even be, they will grapple that dragon with their halfling.

b: They are extremely non-competitive, to the point where they act as if their lot in life, in terms of games, is to be the loser that others can triumph over. They don't seem to put any value in getting better, and sometimes even make sub-par decisions to intentionally decrease their chance of winning. They may take some ironic pride in saying "I won once!"

These are obviously not true for every woman, and it's entirely possible that some of the women in this sample group (which is approximately 15 in number, 1 being my wifey!) have changed. However, during the time in which I observed them, these behaviors were 100% accurate.

40k is a game that, at heart, is about murder and violence. Women have natural tendencies to nuture rather than attack, and wargaming in general goes against that. When you see women in the hobby, it is, as a general rule, because they started in painting and modeling. If you want more women in the hobby, start there.

However, I do not think that pulling in women is the real issue. I think we need to change the stigma surrounding the players we already have. Everyone thinks we are all smelly basement dwellers. Simple things can change that image. Shower before heading to the FLGS. Dress well. Groom your hair and beard. Act like you are actually in a public setting. Lose some weight. Changing the perception of our hobby is paramount to changing the population of our hobby.

 cardboardcrackhead wrote:
However, I do not think that pulling in women is the real issue. I think we need to change the stigma surrounding the players we already have. Everyone thinks we are all smelly basement dwellers.

Funnily enough, I've found that stereotype comes far more frequently from amongst gamers themselves, rather than being an outside perception. Most people not actually involved in gaming don't know enough about it to know what sort of people do it.

 Troike wrote:

I notice you're from Sweden. I hear they're quite good in terms of gender equality? I'm curious, do you see many other female wargamers around?

Gender equality is proportionally great here. I mean, women get an average of 15% lower pay for the same jobs and all but it could be much worse.

As for the gaming community, I have never spotted another female gamer here. One, if a GW employee counts. I don't count in girlfriends who just hang along etc. into the 'gamer' category.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cardboardcrackhead wrote:
40k is a game that, at heart, is about murder and violence. Women have natural tendencies to nuture rather than attack, and wargaming in general goes against that.

Perhaps true, but such stereotypical gender ideas no longer carry any real relevance. I can certainly see what you mean though. It's almost a bit sad, I rant to another girl in my class about the glorious carnage of 40K and they don't get it at all. I sometimes feel like I am the only one who giggles with glee when a Boltgun blows up a cultist in my DoWII mod.

I once saw a female GW employee, and one of the people at our club is a woman. Excellent Trollkin and Tyranid player apparently.

Ive been with my girlfriend 8 years she has:
tau, necron, csm, deamon and lizardman armys.
she has probably played 25 games in that time, 50% of those used variant rules for story telling and other non competitive game types. I struggle to enthuse her about the basic game. she enjoys the setting and the art side and to be fair that's what interests me most too. Games can be long and lop sided.

She has no issue with game shops ect, its normally me that does the pulling away lol.

I think a better scope for female models would help, as she routinely asks for help converting female models or she sticks to ambiguous models like crons. even tho we did make a overlord sp character with boob armour - her request!

I wonder if smaller scale, more involved or roleplay (steady) focused games would see a more spread gender base. Something of the scale of Inquisitor/Necromunda/Kill Team. Just basing this on the fact that a few of our female posters are frequenters of the fluff forum.

its just this simple: Women dont generally like table top wargames.

If they did, there would be companies started by women with games for women. I dont believe at all the talk about women dont dare play or that they just cant because they are oppressed by GW or other gamers.

I do however believe that you can produce games that women enjoy but I dont see the reason to change a hobby a man likes just because a woman dont want to participate. To say that women dont want to play because they are afraid of being socially marked as wierd by other females or males in society is just plain sexist. I repeat that is just fething sexist claims.

I dont know how it is in the rest of the world but I sure as hell dont get any street cred or women drooling over my manliness if I openly would declare Im a grown man playing war. I can take the harassment and I dont believe women are this weaker gender who cant.

We see this in talk in the videogame community now also. Women dont like to play the same games as men there either, but in the video game community people (both men and women) have started creating games that women like. People have being sexist scum there aswell saying women cant stand to see blood or boobs or being called [see forum posting rules], bitch or noob, only men are strong enough snd I say FU to those people.

in the video game community they have reached further than us. There people are constantly and openly claiming that what men like is a bad thing and should be reduced. things like: "the only reason women are portait in videogames like they are is because men like it". and again FU to such sexist gak. why cant mens interest be as ok as for women?

got a little long, and written on phone so please excuse spelling

I know no female 40k player IRL. My friends' girlfriends don't show any interest in the game nor in the fluff. Single girls that get to know it don't show interest either. Both groups play RPGs, what I'd say it would be a first step to like other nerdy stuff... but not in this case.

The cost is off-putting as well.

I've tried to get my fiance involved but I'm a geek and it's too geeky for her. She's offered to paint but the last time she tried she painted a shoulder pad red and then got bored. Too small for her to paint apparently. She's not a very girly, girl, she loves Pin head and Zombies and stuff, does karate and cars, but 40k is a stretch to far. I've asked if she would like to come along for a game to meet my regular opponents wife, who is a bit more interested in the hobby as she does all the painting for him, but she said it's boring to sit and watch. Which I guess it is for someone who doesn't have an interest in it. She seemed a bit more into the idea when I mentioned shoe shops.

My step daughter had finished all her books, Harry Potter, Vampire Diaries and stuff, and I lent her Horus Rising to read. She read it and said no more.

I don't think it's their sort of thing in general.

I have seen and met some girls who do game though, one of them is a very good player and has a fair few armies. So it does happen, It's like a Barbie and Action Man, kinda thing.

 Troike wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Hello. o/ I exist.

I notice you're from Sweden. I hear they're quite good in terms of gender equality? I'm curious, do you see many other female wargamers around?

There is a high degree of gender neutrality and it's increasing, but it doesn't apply to what is viewed as "childish boy activity" in my view. It's a generation thing, from what I can see at Dragon's Lair (a local gaming community/store in Stockholm) I see more and more young girls get into traditionally boy hobbies such as board games and TCGs as well as there's starting to be a shift when it comes to comics going from all of them being "serietidningar" (comic books for young boys, i.e. Donald Duck) to society being aware that there's a distinct difference between Donald Duck and Sandman or Superman and Berserk or even Superman and Donald Duck.

I think in general it's a matter of culture and how the culture view these sort of things. Still not up to snuff in Sweden. Maybe in a generation or two women won't be legal aliens anymore, but rather integrated citizens so to speak.

P.s. I don't think the sexualization of females (Wych cults) or males (Catachans) in itself is a problem, but rather that it's more a subjective thing regarding of how the individuals themselves are portrayed. What I mean is that the clothes (or lack there of) doesn't matter as much as if the gender is held as victims or heroes/villains on a regular basis. I.e. weak versus strong. In 40k you get strong males consistently while females... not so much. Near naked doesn't matter.

P.p.s. a sensibly dressed soldier is going to be difficult to tell the gender of. Also, females aren't harder to paint, naked bodies are, in my experience. I mean, slightly larger hips and slightly rounder torso as well as a tendency for longer hair doesn't do all that much of a difference.