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My girlfriend in high school used to "play" Eldar, but she generally was way more into painting them than actually playing the game. We did have fun a few times playing multiplayer games against my friends as a team.

My advice would be if you want more females playing 40k, and you play in a store, get the people you play with to start showering. Nobody likes to spend time around The Great Unclean One, but in my experience most women will find it even more intolerable.

 Goldphish wrote:
Too long didn't read so I'm going to assume no one mentioned the most obvious reason women do not play this hobby.

In my 15+ years of table top gaming I have noticed that the majority of players severely lack a sense of hygiene. The males tend to act rather foolishly talking in a manner which is not very inviting to the opposite sex. Honestly I have trouble half the time playing with some people because they are so disgusting. Then of course there is the fun fact that whenever a woman does enter the room half the guys act like they have never seen a woman before and the other half tries to act macho. Then the creepy staring...why would a woman want to endure that.

To be perfectly fair, there are also unhygienic women who game. I've just never encountered any of them playing 40k...

There are also plenty of women who game precisely FOR the attention. Because of whatever issues they have, they seek the male attention (and relatively low female competition) of gaming groups. They just don't seem to frequent all game types equally. LARPs, for instance, are choked with 'em.

I asked my wife why she hated 40k (she hates 40k) to which she responded, and I quote, "I don't like space robots." Not excessively helpful.

While we can't help the setting being pretty sexist, I don't think we really have to. The setting is a LOT of things. The setting is also incredibly militarized, it's depressing, it's aetheistic, it's cyclical, racist, static, and portrays (in a relatively positive--or at the worst neutral--light) a panoply of loathsome behaviors from demon worship to drug use to child soldiery to torture. All of these things are considered in real life, at least by some people, to be "bad."

I can't really say why females aren't attracted to the setting (although I have noticed that women tend to be ambivalent to disdainful of almost every dystopian/post-apocalyptic setting, which are almost always incredibly sexist), but if we're trying to hash out what we can do as a community to try and have more women in the hobby, it's pretty simple, and boils down to the same list of things we do to get more gamers (male OR female) into the hobby:

1. Be friendly and welcoming.
2. Don't be cliquish.
3. Don't be creepy.
4. Don't be patronizing.

That seems to be about the extent of it, at least to my eyes.

 Mahtamori wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Hello. o/ I exist.

I notice you're from Sweden. I hear they're quite good in terms of gender equality? I'm curious, do you see many other female wargamers around?

There is a high degree of gender neutrality and it's increasing, but it doesn't apply to what is viewed as "childish boy activity" in my view. It's a generation thing, from what I can see at Dragon's Lair (a local gaming community/store in Stockholm) I see more and more young girls get into traditionally boy hobbies such as board games and TCGs as well as there's starting to be a shift when it comes to comics going from all of them being "serietidningar" (comic books for young boys, i.e. Donald Duck) to society being aware that there's a distinct difference between Donald Duck and Sandman or Superman and Berserk or even Superman and Donald Duck.

I think in general it's a matter of culture and how the culture view these sort of things. Still not up to snuff in Sweden. Maybe in a generation or two women won't be legal aliens anymore, but rather integrated citizens so to speak.

P.s. I don't think the sexualization of females (Wych cults) or males (Catachans) in itself is a problem, but rather that it's more a subjective thing regarding of how the individuals themselves are portrayed. What I mean is that the clothes (or lack there of) doesn't matter as much as if the gender is held as victims or heroes/villains on a regular basis. I.e. weak versus strong. In 40k you get strong males consistently while females... not so much. Near naked doesn't matter.

P.p.s. a sensibly dressed soldier is going to be difficult to tell the gender of. Also, females aren't harder to paint, naked bodies are, in my experience. I mean, slightly larger hips and slightly rounder torso as well as a tendency for longer hair doesn't do all that much of a difference.

Sweden is very prominent in gender equality in many fields were it matter (fortunately) as in equal salary, equal job opportunities (even though we see that there is some distinction in interest when we give women and men freedom to choose). I would be very worried if it was the opposite around. like Mahtamori said; there is not much work in making a 50/50 representation in things which is consider childish boy-stuff

nor is there any work towards making it 50/50 in low income jobs or things which are generally consider obligations and demands. The focus is basically only on how can we make women more powerful, have more high payed jobs and such. Usually the approach is not to change womens attitude like try to enhance their competitive thinking or similar but just try to change the environment so that it suits them. Make the thing we want women in a place were they can just be them selves basically, and not set the same demands on them as for men (that would be sexist)

To clarify that last part. I dont think men have some kind of unfair demand against them when playing 40k which women also should suffer. I just find the argument that women dont want to play because they dont want to be seen as gamers in society and that men stink are just plain sexist. If women dont want to play 40k there isnt even any reason to force them (other than for GW profit). Instead make a game that women like (or if you could, make a game both like) but until then don't change 40k to suit people that dont like 40k. It is not as important that we have 50/50 representation in 40k or videogames or even in the cinema as it is to have 50/50 in the head of government or in the board of general electrics for example. And if you think its similar or if you think its even more important then you have either not been thinking or you have a very distorted view of this tiny hobby.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Goldphish wrote:
Too long didn't read so I'm going to assume no one mentioned the most obvious reason women do not play this hobby.

In my 15+ years of table top gaming I have noticed that the majority of players severely lack a sense of hygiene. The males tend to act rather foolishly talking in a manner which is not very inviting to the opposite sex. Honestly I have trouble half the time playing with some people because they are so disgusting. Then of course there is the fun fact that whenever a woman does enter the room half the guys act like they have never seen a woman before and the other half tries to act macho. Then the creepy staring...why would a woman want to endure that.

I asked my wife why she hated 40k (she hates 40k) to which she responded, and I quote, "I don't like space robots." Not excessively helpful.

While we can't help the setting being pretty sexist, I don't think we really have to. The setting is a LOT of things. The setting is also incredibly militarized, it's depressing, it's aetheistic, it's cyclical, racist, static, and portrays (in a relatively positive--or at the worst neutral--light) a panoply of loathsome behaviors from demon worship to drug use to child soldiery to torture. All of these things are considered in real life, at least by some people, to be "bad."


That seems to be about the extent of it, at least to my eyes.

A girl walks into a Games Woskshop, the neckbeards look up and the following ensues:






Actually, the clip summarises GW's marketing policy when ever I walk into a store


I've shortened the posts down to the points I'm referring to. I think you're both right about what is putting women off. It simply is a setting and style of game that is unappealing to women (in general) as well as being the domain of a (majority in my opinion) group of single guys who are awkward and... well you can fill in the rest of the insults and laugh / take it personally as you see fit. It's just not appealing to them.

It's like when I walk into the living room and find my other half knitting babywear with some of her friends. Sure, they wouldn't mind if I joined them and knitted a lovely beanie hat - but I prefer to paint warhammer models and roll dice. Yes you will find some fellas who love nothing better than to crochet, and they are the equivalent of the girls who like warhammer - they exist but are not the norm. Personally I don't find the population of female players surprising.


Rather than all jumping on the few women who take an interest in warhammer - those guys should take an interest in the girls hobbies: it'll improve them as people, makes them more out-going and helps them take a genuine interest in the girl as a person.

 Wulfmar wrote:


It's like when I walk into the living room and find my other half knitting babywear with some of her friends. Sure, they wouldn't mind if I joined them and knitted a lovely beanie hat - but I prefer to paint warhammer models and roll dice. Yes you will find some fellas who love nothing better than to crochet, and they are the equivalent of the girls who like warhammer - they exist but are not the norm. Personally I don't find the population of female players surprising.

This ^

I'm glad that no one is bugging me about starting knitting, gossiping about other peoples babies or take pole dancing courses. But its slightly off-putting how distorted the society is when coming to different interest and how no one tries to make knitting more interesting to men. Why is the knitting community so recentful and unwilling to change to a mans interest. I maybe would love to knit if it was more about knitting in front of some MMA fight with a cold beer (and not so many women, because they stink), but no one seem to make the effort amongst the women to make this happen

My fiance isn't interested in a setting with guns. If I were into Ancient Romans versus Celts, she might play. She's watched a few games now, but doesn't give a damn about it.

If I was talking about 40k specifically, I would probably say that it's underepresentaition that has pushed me out and if not for fairly easy introduction would have keep me out originally.

This also sets the tone for the atmosphere for the game in general.
A lot of it could be bridged with good marketing, but bigger company's fail constantly at that, so GW isn't at all odd in that way lol.
If GW was going to push for more girls in the hobby, it would have to bring in some more representation. And probably mature a bit with its story's in the setting and codexs for general consumption within he hobby.
One of the things I have noticed is that the other games I play have little trouble getting interest from my friends, but 40k allmost pushes them away when ever they have gotten interest.
Why wargaming male friends flock to 40k and seems allmost perplexed why I would not choose it over warmachine/infinty/halo or any other fantasy or sci fi setting.

In the end I don't think the setting needs to change, but realy how GW use it. One of the bigist is lack of female models, I spend so much time trying to find suitable female models I lose enthusiasm very quickly since I end up wasting hobby time in stores and on forums searching.

If I was to speak less specifically and wargaming as a whole, I would say it will just take time for the culture to change. But it would need to change a bit from within as well as how it is seen outside the hobby, a lot of people still don't even know it exists to have an opinion at all I find.

People in general within the hobby are fine, but allways some bads in the bunches. I also find that it's rare for guys to come up and chat about the games as much, leaving me often sitting there a lot more within groups. Something realy not found in board gaming and gaming culture now so much.

Same reason males make most of the market for: toy guns, plastic army men, paintball, military, airsoft, etc.

Nothing sexist about it, its just how it is, maybe its hardwired or subliminal teachings, whatever the reason it still exists.

Maybe if we stopped treating female players as female players, and just treated them as opponents, they'd be more interested in joining the hobby.

This post drips with sincerity of the plight of female gamers, but it incurs the most basic mistake possible while playing this game.

It makes the mistake of separating them into a different category. They're not "Players", they're "Female Players".

Maybe, if you could just set up across from a woman, roll dice across from a woman and win/lose across from a woman, just like you do across from a man, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Also, I've been in game stores in the South during the summer many times. Chicks REALLY don't like the smell of BO, guys. Wash your backside every day and wear deodorant.

a week or so ago i had my long time girlfriend play a game with me in the house on our own table and slowly taught her afew rules and the "basics" of the game.
she enjoyed the game and the thrill of the close game we had.
as i was showing her afew armies and the different fluffs they had she seems to like dark eldar the most. she enjoys to paint on paper but she likes the diffrences of painting a model. i let her paint my LOC and she enjoyed it.
if you are trying to get a special someone or even just a friend to play i would say dont shove the game down her throat and take it slow

It's all about the "strategic" setting and thinking, regardless whether it be tabletop, computer games, board games, in fact games at all as long they are not luck based games. She doesn't have interest in planning/decision-making for an unreal "world", it seems, even more so because it's all about war. On the other hand a friend of mine does play 40k but she has a wholly different mentality regarding games and strategy.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

It makes the mistake of separating them into a different category. They're not "Players", they're "Female Players".

Maybe, if you could just set up across from a woman, roll dice across from a woman and win/lose across from a woman, just like you do across from a man, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Female players is better than saying 'those busty players' for three reasons: 1) It's politer 2) Busty still covers half the male players and 3) It differentiates between the genders when discussing it on here; otherwise you end up with the following forms of comments:

''Why do we have fewer players compared with players? We would like to have more players but the players keep making it horrible by jumping on the players when they walk into a store. Players smell and need to wash because players don't like the smell of players''

 Orkimedezz wrote:
i would say dont shove the game down her throat and take it slow

So wait until the second date then?

Maybe I am blessed with a meta that treats women better but I have never seen any women coming into the store and getting accosted. I regularly see women come in but it's usually to buy boardgames/magic or playing Magic. I am of the opinion that it's 40k itself that is a turn off to most women rather than it's playerbase.

Though, I really do think the cheesecake models in military wargames need to go. Not just because they objectify women but because they are fething stupid.

Around my current era it has more to do with the elitist neckbeards than anything.

My gf and myself don't fit the "nerd" archetype (in other words I look like frat douche and she looks like a sorority girl) and you'd think we were fething monsters walking into any of the hobby stores around here, I only have one place I'll play because the other 3 stores treat any non "nerd" like they're worthless, from flat out refusing to play to uttering insults under their breath, one fat sack of crap said "Ughh so tired of these cheap ass wannabes trying to takeover 40k" when I asked him if he thought the bones minis would work as spawn in my Chaos army. Not to mention of my gf is with me their state at her like she's the last donut at a fat cop convention, I'm a pretty confident dude and I even get weirded out with the feeling "I don't belong" when I'm in these places I can only imagine how gakky it must be to be a girl and deal with those donkey-caves.

2x210 wrote:
Around my current era it has more to do with the elitist neckbeards than anything.

My gf and myself don't fit the "nerd" archetype (in other words I look like frat douche and she looks like a sorority girl) and you'd think we were fething monsters walking into any of the hobby stores around here, I only have one place I'll play because the other 3 stores treat any non "nerd" like they're worthless, from flat out refusing to play to uttering insults under their breath, one fat sack of crap said "Ughh so tired of these cheap ass wannabes trying to takeover 40k" when I asked him if he thought the bones minis would work as spawn in my Chaos army. Not to mention of my gf is with me their state at her like she's the last donut at a fat cop convention, I'm a pretty confident dude and I even get weirded out with the feeling "I don't belong" when I'm in these places I can only imagine how gakky it must be to be a girl and deal with those donkey-caves.

The thing is, girls dont even like to play at all, regardless of those caves you have over there. We also have one good store and one bad store and we play at home either way, its better, you can combine gaming with beer or wine and a barbeque. However the fundamental thing is that females lack interest in the essence of wargaming. They could be further hindered by freaks in the shop, but if they really liked the game they would create their own clubs, shops and companies as men do.

Why do men seem to like Action movies while women often prefer romantic comedies? I think it has a lot to do with gender norms and upbringing. Boys grow up on He-Man, Conan, G.I. Joe, etc. which instills the idea of the mighty warrior and being 'Manly'. I think this makes it easier for them to become invested in a hobby that revolves around War and competition whereas most women probably see it as an overly expensive and complicated board game.

I'm going to throw a very related article into this mess:

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-players/female-vs-male-chess-players

here's an actual article from a well known publication, written by people with degrees on the subject matter, tackling one aspect of the issue:
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/276/1659/1161.abstract


Why bring chess into it? Simple: there are no models to paint (so model sexism isn't a factor), cost isn't a factor (chess is extremely cheap to get into) and you aren't going to find grown men making "pew pew" noises while moving pieces around. In other words it doesn't have any of the negative stereotypes normally associated with guys that play games at a comic book store.

The main thing in common is that Chess is a strategy game AND has very few female players. My *guess* here is simply that such games aren't appealing to a wide variety of women.

clively wrote:
I'm going to throw a very related article into this mess:

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-players/female-vs-male-chess-players

here's an actual article from a well known publication, written by people with degrees on the subject matter, tackling one aspect of the issue:
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/276/1659/1161.abstract


Why bring chess into it? Simple: there are no models to paint (so model sexism isn't a factor), cost isn't a factor (chess is extremely cheap to get into) and you aren't going to find grown men making "pew pew" noises while moving pieces around. In other words it doesn't have any of the negative stereotypes normally associated with guys that play games at a comic book store.

The main thing in common is that Chess is a strategy game AND has very few female players. My *guess* here is simply that such games aren't appealing to a wide variety of women.

I was slightly sorry that they didnt seem to tackle the issue of why females are less interested in chess. Its not really that much of a problem, as long as people can agree that it is so. Otherwise it was a good article, I was expecting some biased gender studies thing, but they didnt cross that line. It actually explains a lot in terms of board room ratios of men and females also without sinking into the trap of "females are scared of board rooms".

The first page seems to be similar to here, a lot of people have theory's but one that comes up a lot is chess is male dominated and it means it is harder as a female player to get into it. As even when they do they are in a very intimidating enviroment.

The second one I missed a bunch of info, sleepy lol

I would also think that chess is not very relevant unless a lot of warhammer players actually play chess, and regularly. Which I think would be a interesting poll to place on dakka :0

The chess thread was pretty unenlightening generally. The main interesting parts were the scientific paper (the conclusion of which was that the rating differences between men and women in competitive chess could be almost entirely explained by the participation difference, statistically) and the one comment about a higher proportion of younger girls being interested in chess.

I was really proud when I finally beat my dad at chess. Again, though, chess doesn't interest me a great deal because you're forced to play it 1v1, and I would rather play something that lets me play with people, not just against them. So 2v2 is really fun and interesting, but with 1v1 I get so little out of it that honestly I'd usually prefer to just watch the game.

People keep referring to gender norms. That seems to be the biggest problem.

Sexism, it hurts everyone.

Whilst I run a store, I also run a separate club.
We have a 30% female participation rate, and are equally split with a 50/50 ages being <18 as >18.
No one is under the age of 16.

Our biggest problem is to with the rules and regulations of Club exec members for Child Protection Policies, especially when, as a man, I am immediately suspect. So....I then had to find a woman, willing to aid me to allow those who wished to participate.

Two members came with their older brother, with parental consent (blood relation), but this was restrictive as it meant they were the only ones allowed to attend, couldn't bring their interested friends etc.

We have now reached a stable population, met all these challenges and jumped these sharks: but the end result is such that those players have fallen by the wayside, which has reduced the total number of ladies participating.

This has to have some impact: how often are women warned about men? The fact that most wargamers and games players have some lack, or perceived lack, of social grace only further drives women away. This is a cultural norm that further tacks onto the 'silly boys games' tag for many women.

Indeed, many times when asked what I do for a living, I end up feeling that I am being weighed and judged by those scales.

Further to this, though, is the surprise and positive reactions we get when we do have someone new join us. It's just that first initial hurdle can be too high for some to surmount.

First, I just want to say that as a male gamer, I'd love to see more variety in the genders in armies. Like Eldar that aren't Howling Banshees, or more Elves that aren't relegated to a unit like the Witch Elves. Or Imperial Guard. It'd just feel more like a "real" army. Heck, when I did a long Imperial Guard story a few years ago, I included a lot of females, because it makes sense that the Imperium would throw them in there, too.

Anyway, on the main topic... Not sure you can do much to change it. The attitude of some male gamers doesn't help, certainly. I've seen some female gamers, but they're usually someone else's significant other than was convinced to try the games.

One of the things would be figuring out how to frame it when talking to a woman about it. If she's not into any kind of game, just stop right there. But if she's into something like board games, you have an "in." You can explain how it's really just like a more complex board game where you get to show off your artistic talent as well. Perhaps over-simplifying, but I think it's accurate.

It is strange, though, that I could know a young woman who plays video games (like Baldur's Gate), enjoys card games like Killer Bunnies, and yet wouldn't really be that into miniatures games. No idea why. Psychology isn't my strong suit and I hate to assume.

Yes, I've got to admit, being around dingy, partly-run-down commercial or industrial districts at nearly midnight does set off the self preservation alarm.

My GF has come to enjoy the hobby and it is something we work on and play together.

I think what it really boils down to is personal preference. Normally she finds the generally depressing and dark setting to be a deterrent, but at the same time, she recognizes and likes many of the themes found in fantasy and science-fiction literature that she reads.

I play the Imperial Guard, and she had become attached to the Eldar, which I am slowly painting for her as she picks out figures and time permits.

I don't think she really understood the hobby until it she was able to see it. YouTube casters like StrikingScorpion82 really make the game look beautiful and he likes to stress thematic elements as well. Both of us look forward to each new show he posts.

My wife feels like every time she walks into a game store with me everybody stops what they're doing and stares like the guys on the nude beach in Eurotrip.
The problem is not so much 40K players in my experience but the people who are playing card games and/or Pathfinder, who are much more lacking in hygiene in my experience.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Yes, I've got to admit, being around dingy, partly-run-down commercial or industrial districts at nearly midnight does set off the self preservation alarm.

We have try to allways put it in places where it is easy to keep evryone safe, it's a tough thing if you cannot get a location like that.

I also rember being asked why I bother getting so many female models for my 40k army's, and having to deal with not using official models can cause issues on rare occasions :( that now makes me think of another reason I probably slowly leaving 40k now.

Depressing.

 ErikSetzer wrote:
First, I just want to say that as a male gamer, I'd love to see more variety in the genders in armies. Like Eldar that aren't Howling Banshees, or more Elves that aren't relegated to a unit like the Witch Elves. Or Imperial Guard. It'd just feel more like a "real" army. Heck, when I did a long Imperial Guard story a few years ago, I included a lot of females, because it makes sense that the Imperium would throw them in there, too.

Eldar were my first real army (AFAIK, this was before Tyranids were an actual thing!) and their fluff was all about how both male and female eldar would become aspect warriors and guardians and since they pretty much all had helmets I imagined there were both men and women in the units. These days they (at least some of them) seem to have boob-plate, unfortunately, so instead of "wow any of these could be women, that's so cool" it's "these specific ones with the stupid-looking boob-plate are women and the rest are men."

I don't know if it's just my experience, but the card game player hygiene comments seem off to me because I'm pretty much always the only woman pushing miniatures around but there are waaaaaay more playing Magic (and I haven't had any problems with wargamer hygiene either, other than the occasional unfortunate case of "plumber's crack").


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Yes, I've got to admit, being around dingy, partly-run-down commercial or industrial districts at nearly midnight does set off the self preservation alarm.

We have try to allways put it in places where it is easy to keep evryone safe, it's a tough thing if you cannot get a location like that.

A while back we were going to tournaments at a shop that was perfectly nice and nestled between some other (closed by that time) shops, but it was next to more of an industrial area that was very dark, and that was where the parking was. So these tournaments would start after it was already dark, and they would end very late, and I'd be walking back to the car through these very dark areas with intermittent lighting and with groups of strange men wandering around. I mean, they were probably all there for wholly legitimate reasons and everything but it's still the sort of place everyone tells you you'll get murdered at, that time of night.

HiveFleetPlastic, that would scare me so much >.< don't think I could do it.