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They moved and are in a somewhat safer-feeling place now, but so many stores are in these shopping strips that look really shady at the best of times, presumably because that's where the cheaper rent is. I wonder how much that has to do with it?

One of the nice things about some of the Games Workshop stores before was that they were in nice shopping centres. I think most of them have moved to shopping strips now.

Wow, this conversation is really weird to me. I got into GW through my female friend and my (male) husband, Flo from GW Bruxelles and Dan from GW Aylesbury who was both great to a newbie.

I play IG and Necrons in 40k and Empire and Orks & Goblins in WHFB. I do currently play Sisters in Mordheim, but that's the only "stereotypically" female bunch I play.

I've never really known guys to be particularly offensive - or smelly - since the mid-90s and to me it seems just as offensive to say all male gamers smell as it is to say that all female gamers are there to show off. IMO obviously.

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.

Did she want to play minions or mercs? I'm drawing a blank as to what other factions don't have cool female casters in them.

I imagine most women give about as much of a gak about boob-plate and skimpy outfits as men do about Rambo-esque dudes running around battlefields shirtless, meaning, they generally don't. Wish fulfillment is wish fulfillment, and women fantasize about being fit, attractive and ass-kicky as much as we do.

The reason why there aren't very many female 40K players is the same reason there aren't very many female Starcraft players, or female fighting game players; it's because society tells us that boys and girls like different things. Violence, strategy and competition are things boys like, girls not-so-much. That's what society tells us, so the result is that wargaming falls into a category that appeals almost strictly to males. -shrug- Until gender roles blur together more (something that's already happening), you will never see 40K or any other wargame get a heavy female player base.

Regarding 40K fluff and "sexism", I wouldn't say 40K is sexist. It suffers from not having a whole lot of females in it to begin with, but almost every single woman that is in it is extremely competent. There just needs to be more of them. I agree with that. The Imperial Guard codex has six special characters in it- they couldn't make at least one of them a woman? Unacceptable. One is just the bare minimum. The Eldar have one female SC, Jain-Zar, but even that is barely acceptable in a codex that has eight special characters in it.

Yeah, I could imagine a Vostroyan / Valhallan lady commander or specialist. Maybe someone based off of Lyudmila Pavlichenko.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)

The setting is not particularly sexist (though it is in some cases, and stupidly so), but the model range definitely is. When it comes to the IG, which is the army that should have the most variation (apart from the mutated horrors of Chaos), we're instead stuck with 99% male soldiers in four outfits... and this for an army that explicitly states is raised from nearly every planet in the Imperium, each with its own customs, uniforms, weapons and traditions.

No, all of this is a complete fallacy.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)

Did you two learn nothing from the Chess article? Chess isn't sexist and women still don't like chess.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)

Let's see the armies that could have more/any female characters.

Necrons: Necron Phaerakhs and Overladies are canonical, and would be easy to model. Hell, the Maynarkh Dynasty's mother of oblivion is definitely someone worth giving a model! And if Kutlakh is substantially lower than her on the food chain and she had the adamantium ovaries to stare down and kill a C'tan, I'm betting she's one hell of a mean customer.

Imperial guard: In the grim darkness of the far future, recruitment policies do not discriminate on gender lines. Female Generals, Commissars, Psykers, Priestesses, or simply supremely badass soldiers please.

Eldar: Jain Zar is the only female special character in the faction that is perhaps most egalitarian with regards to gender. Why? Fix this. Make the next revealed Phoenix Lord Female, give us female farseers or spiritseers or autarchs. Seriously, Relic is doing a better job with this!

Inquisition: More female inquisitors/henchmen please.

Dark Eldar: We have Lady Malys and Lelith...and that's it. And given GW's "anyone without a model goes" policy I'm worried about Malys. Shouldn't be too hard to add more.

Chaos Daemons: Psst, GW, Slaanesh needs a named Greater Daemon. Maybe a Daemon Princess too while you're at it.

 Kain wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)

Let's see the armies that could have more/any female characters.

Necrons: Necron Phaerakhs and Overladies are canonical, and would be easy to model. Hell, the Maynarkh Dynasty's mother of oblivion is definitely someone worth giving a model! And if Kutlakh is substantially lower than her on the food chain and she had the adamantium ovaries to stare down and kill a C'tan, I'm betting she's one hell of a mean customer.

Imperial guard: In the grim darkness of the far future, recruitment policies do not discriminate on gender lines. Female Generals, Commissars, Psykers, Priestesses, or simply supremely badass soldiers please.

Eldar: Jain Zar is the only female special character in the faction that is perhaps most egalitarian with regards to gender. Why? Fix this. Make the next revealed Phoenix Lord Female, give us female farseers or spiritseers or autarchs. Seriously, Relic is doing a better job with this!

Inquisition: More female inquisitors/henchmen please.

Dark Eldar: We have Lady Malys and Lelith...and that's it. And given GW's "anyone without a model goes" policy I'm worried about Malys. Shouldn't be too hard to add more.

Chaos Daemons: Psst, GW, Slaanesh needs a named Greater Daemon. Maybe a Daemon Princess too while you're at it.

I disagree with the bolded part, but that is only because of fluff reasoning. Besides that I agree that it would be nice to have a more balanced range of characters, but something I'm afraid of is what the, for lack of a better term, creeps would do. I have seen one gamer with an army of slaneshi demons that had been modeled to look like nude women, worst part was that apparently he was very good modeling. Most of the people, myself included, felt very uncomfortable with the army, thankfully he stopped coming eventually.

 Jaceevoke wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)

Let's see the armies that could have more/any female characters.

Necrons: Necron Phaerakhs and Overladies are canonical, and would be easy to model. Hell, the Maynarkh Dynasty's mother of oblivion is definitely someone worth giving a model! And if Kutlakh is substantially lower than her on the food chain and she had the adamantium ovaries to stare down and kill a C'tan, I'm betting she's one hell of a mean customer.

Imperial guard: In the grim darkness of the far future, recruitment policies do not discriminate on gender lines. Female Generals, Commissars, Psykers, Priestesses, or simply supremely badass soldiers please.

Eldar: Jain Zar is the only female special character in the faction that is perhaps most egalitarian with regards to gender. Why? Fix this. Make the next revealed Phoenix Lord Female, give us female farseers or spiritseers or autarchs. Seriously, Relic is doing a better job with this!

Inquisition: More female inquisitors/henchmen please.

Dark Eldar: We have Lady Malys and Lelith...and that's it. And given GW's "anyone without a model goes" policy I'm worried about Malys. Shouldn't be too hard to add more.

Chaos Daemons: Psst, GW, Slaanesh needs a named Greater Daemon. Maybe a Daemon Princess too while you're at it.

I disagree with the bolded part, but that is only because of fluff reasoning. Besides that I agree that it would be nice to have a more balanced range of characters, but something I'm afraid of is what the, for lack of a better term, creeps would do. I have seen one gamer with an army of slaneshi demons that had been modeled to look like nude women, worst part was that apparently he was very good modeling. Most of the people, myself included, felt very uncomfortable with the army, thankfully he stopped coming eventually.

Creepers gonna creep.

Not much you can do about them but ignore them and not touch the things their goo encrusted hands have.

one gamer with an army of slaneshi demons that had been modeled to look like nude women

You sure those weren't just old-edition Daemonettes?

Because those were basically nude women (with the book-standard-Mark-of-Slaanesh single breast) with crab-claws.

Slaanesh is the Chaos God of Creepers. Vice, Pleasure and Perversion.

I find in 40k what few female players I see tend to be there to show their painted army or have a guy who plays.
I have met 3 that had one thing in common: mind like steel trap for odds and numbers, pretty much there to crush guys by outsmarting them and watching them squirm... I think I was in love each time (out of platonic respect... of course...)
I see far more women playing Magic the Gathering by a landslide.

My wife liked painting daemons like the greater daemon of Khorn, I thought there was hope.
She had watched a few games and said "it was like watching paint dry".

I found the only way I could get her to play is scenario based kill team play.
As pointed out, "more female inquisitor models please!" she liked the Gregor Eisenhorn stories and with a little more going on than "kill them all!".
She liked the interesting variety of roles all with women that kicked butt.
I too have been conscripted to sculpt / kit-bash / mod all kinds of female characters to add to these kill teams.
The "untouchable" unrequited love interest for Eisenhorn became a favorite to blunt the various psychic villains fielded.

I think the armor with the built-in metal bra is fine with her, it is the "metal bikini" with little else that gets her a bit peeved (i.e. Red Sonja).
She seems to think you are either armored appropriately or are an agile professional who does not need these things.

It just seems that it needs to look cool, the look of the movie "Underworld" is a good comparator, a story is needed with rewards as goals and it needs to have quick interaction: the "I move, you move" needs to be short or reworked if you are to keep attention. X-wing worked out much better for that fact alone.

I would like to see more women gaming in general BUT I think the environment as much as the game determines this.
A clean, well lit store with some style to it other than covered in posters would go a long way.
Healthy snacks, stocking at least some diet pop/soda of some kind at the very least.
Going out is a social event for them and by not making it comfortable they will find other things to do.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.

Did she want to play minions or mercs? I'm drawing a blank as to what other factions don't have cool female casters in them.

She really liked Minions, but no female character. She said she wa sticking to Vampire Counts.

It's not a male/female thing with getting bored with how 40K plays. With some armies, a single turn can be forty-five minutes (or more) of moving, dice-rolling, and what-not. Shoot, I get bored if a single player's turn takes more than twenty minutes, that's why I prefer lower-points games, action happens faster and often more decisively.

 Psienesis wrote:

one gamer with an army of slaneshi demons that had been modeled to look like nude women

You sure those weren't just old-edition Daemonettes?

Because those were basically nude women (with the book-standard-Mark-of-Slaanesh single breast) with crab-claws.

Slaanesh is the Chaos God of Creepers. Vice, Pleasure and Perversion.

Trust me I would have preferred it if they were the old edition daemonettes, no claws but they were colored in a way to a. . ah. . ahem accentuate certain areas even GW wouldn't model. I'm just glad he didn't do the same to his demon prince(ss?), although I think the store would have kicked him out if he had.

I wouldnt mind that sort of thing since it is Slaanesh's MO. Unless the player was creepy/immature about it.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I wouldnt mind that sort of thing since it is Slaanesh's MO. Unless the player was creepy/immature about it.

Given the argument I assume that he was.

Otherwise I've seen P&M threads here on Dakka be praised for things like that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/591842-Acrylic%2C%20Back%2C%20Battery%2C%20Battlesuit%2C%20Boobs%2C%20Coat%2C%20Crisis%20Battlesuit%2C%20Flight%20Stand.html

This leaps to mind.

It's because while gw May cater to all audiences the community has unfortunately bot grown up to follow this viewpoint. I know of female players at ny local store. In fact one of them is probably the only honorable player of both tau and eldar I've ever met (shocker I know). And their should be more, the unfortunate problem is that while some of us pretend they are adults they haven't grown up at all. This probably explains why they are still single and being rude and shovenistic around them.

I am an even rarer breed of mwg in that I am also gay. If someone were to ever badmouth my SO at the gw store if probably go straight to the store owner about it and start something. Such an attitude is unacceptable, immature, offensive, and unsportsmanlike.

 ionusx wrote:
It's because while gw May cater to all audiences the community has unfortunately bot grown up to follow this viewpoint. I know of female players at ny local store. In fact one of them is probably the only honorable player of both tau and eldar I've ever met (shocker I know). And their should be more, the unfortunate problem is that while some of us pretend they are adults they haven't grown up at all. This probably explains why they are still single and being rude and shovenistic around them.

I am an even rarer breed of mwg in that I am also gay. If someone were to ever badmouth my SO at the gw store if probably go straight to the store owner about it and start something. Such an attitude is unacceptable, immature, offensive, and unsportsmanlike.

This is a problem that is present in all sorts of fandoms, even the ones that you'd expect to be more... accepting. Shoot, I'm sure everyone has heard of the 12-year-old homophobic racists playing Modern Warfare or Call of Duty, but the same sorts of people show up at anime conventions, comic-cons, and, perhaps most surprisingly, Star Trek conventions. I *really* don't understand why there's so many chauvinists at such places, considering that Star Trek has *always* had a huge base of female fans (anecdotal evidence, certainly, but my mother, my aunt, and their female friends have been fans of Star Trek since the original television show aired). And this for a show that went out of its way to exhibit diversity and tolerance.

The girl 40k players at our store aren't as good as the male players so they will quit after hardly ever winning. They tend to like to paint more than work out strategy.

I almost always win so they stuck me w/ the Dark Elf female player who had never won. I asked her if she minded me making her list. She didn't and told she just wanted to win once.

Was my 1st time looking at the Dark Eldar but I stuck as many Dark Lances as I could get in her army. We wrecked them didn't even lose a unit. Now she is a lot more excited to play and confers with me often about what to include.

My wife is not a big fan of 40k, doesn't help that the employee at the FLGS is creepy and flirty. My buddies wife also gets the creepy attention from this clown.

There is a nerdy, yet quite attractive young lady who likes to play Star Wars there. Not show how she's treated.

I would say the atmosphere is the turn off. These nerdy guys like to talk tough and act cool but say the dumbest things around females. It just comes down to the majority of the player base doesn't know how to act around women.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mythra wrote:
The girl 40k players at our store aren't as good as the male players so they will quit after hardly ever winning. They tend to like to paint more than work out strategy.

I almost always win so they stuck me w/ the Dark Elf female player who had never won. I asked her if she minded me making her list. She didn't and told she just wanted to win once.

Was my 1st time looking at the Dark Eldar but I stuck as many Dark Lances as I could get in her army. We wrecked them didn't even lose a unit. Now she is a lot more excited to play and confers with me often about what to include.

Good on you. Male or female. If I played against someone who was very knew I would try to give advice and also explain my strategy. I think it helps develop the players. Most of the time people just wanna crush their opponent.

SlyasR wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.

This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)

Did you two learn nothing from the Chess article? Chess isn't sexist and women still don't like chess.

It's not that simple though. People aren't that simple. As mentioned before, human society does reinforce what boys and girls like. It doesn't matter how hard you try to avoid it even with your own children, it will be conditioned to some extent. TV, school, toys, other friends. It all will influence them in some way unless you monitor them as Big Brother does which, no offense I would never forgive my parent for being so overbearing. Especially since I'd feel like a scientific experiment. Then there's the community around a game and the game itself which already isn't for everybody and the stereotype of smelly dungeon crawler existed for a reason . And, of course, you get to the game itself. Now, I honestly don't think it's really this misogynistic game or anything. I'd like there to be female models but that's more because I never really got fielding an army of IG that were all male. Whilst it's not perfect, I just want to get Scintillan or DKoK that way I can put helmets on everybody. There I can have my balanced regiment

Oh and I'm not saying that it's quite possible that biology has some influence on our preferences. I'd be very surprised if it didn't have something to do with our predilections but I'd also argue it doesn't necessarily overrule everything else. Then again I'm some dolt who got along with his sister and we played Barbie/Polly Pocket with Pokemon in lego houses, played fighter games and sims together, and once used a barbie/doll house where we asked our mom to cut out red foam to be fire, placed it on the winddows and brought in rescue hero toys to save the barbies from their doom and we played on both sides (man childhood is odd)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I wouldnt mind that sort of thing since it is Slaanesh's MO. Unless the player was creepy/immature about it.

Given the argument I assume that he was.

Otherwise I've seen P&M threads here on Dakka be praised for things like that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/591842-Acrylic%2C%20Back%2C%20Battery%2C%20Battlesuit%2C%20Boobs%2C%20Coat%2C%20Crisis%20Battlesuit%2C%20Flight%20Stand.html

This leaps to mind.

What am I looking at!?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I wouldnt mind that sort of thing since it is Slaanesh's MO. Unless the player was creepy/immature about it.

Given the argument I assume that he was.

Otherwise I've seen P&M threads here on Dakka be praised for things like that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/591842-Acrylic%2C%20Back%2C%20Battery%2C%20Battlesuit%2C%20Boobs%2C%20Coat%2C%20Crisis%20Battlesuit%2C%20Flight%20Stand.html

This leaps to mind.

This made my day. Thank you. I like the discussion this has stirred. Personally, I'm going to ask my wife and see what her reason besides 'cost'. She didn't mind painting the figures but sometimes when I explain to her how it works, I can see her eyes rolling.

In my experience the female gamers I know are most put off by the GW stores being dirty ratholes, the gamer smell/funk, constant "rape jokes" from teenagers and grown men alike, and being stared at like they are the only pair of boobs on the planet.

There's a different store across town that offers a much cleaner and nicer storefront and kicks out socially inept losers who insult females, and surprise there's about a 30%-40% female attendance for several of the game nights.

It has nothing to do with the models but rather in how they are being treated, if they don't feel like they are being respected why on earth would they stick around?

If every time you went into the store and somebody made a crack about your weight, penis size, performance, or anything else that demeans you I don't think you'd frequent those stores for long either. People go where they feel they are respected and accepted, the majority of guys at most wargaming events and stores aren't even close to respectful towards women.


I was in a game of Zombicide last weekend with 5 female players, it was great. The reason they were there is because they were being treated like people and gamers, not as sweater stuffer eye candy and rape joke material.

In the last 7-8 years of being at the local bunker I think I've seen maybe 5 women in total so much as enter the store of their own free will. (Excluding of mom's picking up their snot nosed kids from the doorway, and even those moms won't venture more than 3ft inside). It's all about the atmosphere that the store presents and maintains.

 StarTrotter wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I wouldnt mind that sort of thing since it is Slaanesh's MO. Unless the player was creepy/immature about it.

Given the argument I assume that he was.

Otherwise I've seen P&M threads here on Dakka be praised for things like that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/591842-Acrylic%2C%20Back%2C%20Battery%2C%20Battlesuit%2C%20Boobs%2C%20Coat%2C%20Crisis%20Battlesuit%2C%20Flight%20Stand.html

This leaps to mind.

What am I looking at!?

The face of 6th edition.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I imagine most women give about as much of a gak about boob-plate and skimpy outfits as men do about Rambo-esque dudes running around battlefields shirtless, meaning, they generally don't. Wish fulfillment is wish fulfillment, and women fantasize about being fit, attractive and ass-kicky as much as we do.

The reason why there aren't very many female 40K players is the same reason there aren't very many female Starcraft players, or female fighting game players; it's because society tells us that boys and girls like different things. Violence, strategy and competition are things boys like, girls not-so-much. That's what society tells us, so the result is that wargaming falls into a category that appeals almost strictly to males. -shrug- Until gender roles blur together more (something that's already happening), you will never see 40K or any other wargame get a heavy female player base.

Yeah. Darn that society, for tricking biology into implementing sexual dimorphism.

> Implying gender preferences for wargames is influenced by neurological differences between men and women.

Nah.

 Psienesis wrote:

one gamer with an army of slaneshi demons that had been modeled to look like nude women

You sure those weren't just old-edition Daemonettes?

Because those were basically nude women (with the book-standard-Mark-of-Slaanesh single breast) with crab-claws.

Slaanesh is the Chaos God of Creepers. Vice, Pleasure and Perversion.

Yeah, if you look at the old ed Daemonettes and some of the Dark Elf fantasy models, it's nude boobs.