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I got into 40k though my (male) friends. Though I have been a hardcore RPG video game player for many years, being into anime (before the rest of the world caught up) attending many geeky events when one of my friends mentioned they were going to do a tale of X gamers to get back into it I was unsure, felt it was maybe a bit *too* geeky - there definitely is a stigma attached to playing with miniatures, though with the world becoming more accepting of LARP'ers etc....
FLGS I started going to at a later date is pretty relaxed and I don't feel uncomfortable (at least around the people I have actually played).
However I did have a bad experience a long time ago at a not so 'F'LGS, being a bit hit and miss would put people off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/09 13:37:09
As a woman who plays 40k, who knows several women who play 40k, it's simply that there's an entry barrier of false masculinity.
Even though many of the male players I know aren't the manliest of men, there's still this perception in the group that, as a woman, I'm the odd one out who doesn't quite fit... and that scares people off.
The girls I know who don't play choose so because they're simply not interested. THe ones who do don't gravitate towards any particular army - I know two female Chaos players (one Daemons, one Marines), a Tyranid/Space Wolf painter (not so much of a player), an Eldar painter (again, not so much of a player, although that's changed since she moved in with her bother), a Dark Eldar/Elf painter, a Giant Robot painter (heh) and a couple of Marine players. Oh, and me - Necrons, Sisters (and fantasy)
So, it's not really representation inside the game that's the problem. Believe it or not, straight girls seem to like stories about sexy (or at least buff) guys just as much as guys like movies with sexy ladies in them.
Of course, most telling, perhaps, is that when we get over-excited playing in our FLGS (which none of my female friends who are interested go to), the proprietor (who is an "ascended nerd") tells us to keep it down because "This is why girls don't like us." (at which point I get rather smug.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/09 14:05:17
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
I've noticed that the card/ board gamer group is often closer to a 70/30 male/female split which is actually pretty decent considering. Extremely rare that there isn't a single woman in my LGS on a typical open gaming day, there will usually be 3-4 and about 10 men if it's busy.
Just nowhere near that ratio with wargaming is all.
In general, I think it has never been easier for women to get into and enjoy geeky hobbies.. the dank gaming hovel full of neckbearded misogynists is mostly a myth, any half decent store owner will put a stop to that right away and most male gamers are well-groomed and polite.
GW stores are mostly creches and don't really count.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/05/09 14:19:04
For the anecdote, I brought one friend of mine to have a demo game at my FLGS, because she seemed interested. She is Iranian and at that had only been in France for less than a year, if I am not mistaken. She had never heard of wargaming before, so she had no stereotypes about it, I guess. She did notice that she was the only girl in the shop, and mention it afterward, though. And there were not so many people there anyway. If there had been more affluence, the absence of other women would have been even more noticeable. So, I guess the lack of other girls/women playing somehow makes it harder.
Anyhow, she said she enjoyed it, but never mentioned it afterward, and I do not know if she was just being polite.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
I know that it was easy to get my GF involved, she had seen 40k/fantasy models at the FLGS, liked the look of them but had no way of knowing where to even start LOOKING for information on how to play, collect or anything else... When we started going out before I even mentioned my plastic crack habit she said that the games in 'that store by my bank' looked cool but she didn't know anything about them, this gentlemen is the time you tell her you play with little plastic men.
Right now she's starting a wood elf army that is of unnervingly high quality and has played several games with my IG, each time enjoying it (despite a terrible experience with a riptide in her first game.) The store we go to is very friendly (there are several female players) and the only rating factor seems to be how nice of a person you are to be around.
I think mostly its the lack of information on gaming that makes people shy away from the hobby, regardless of gender, after all when your first impression of a game comes from a couple of dudes who give you the ultra simple version while playing a very complex looking game with handfuls of dice, a whole bunch of assorted models and a tape-measure you can see that its not "kind of like chess"...
GW (and other companies) need to advertise, they need a simplified boardgame version that is targeted at casual gamers (the Settlers of Catan crowd) that doesn't cost more then some first born children, and is advertised and marketed to a wider variety of stores, not just that places with massive Magic The Gathering posters in the window.
I think it's mostly a societal expectation thing. Girls are actively discouraged from most nerdy endeavours growing up and wargaming is no exception.
Personally I know several female full spectrum hobbyists (they play, paint, build minis and do conversions) and a few more who just paint or just play. So they are out there.
Being a nerd or having pursuits once pigeonholed as nerdy is now more along the lines of being acceptable, it's okay to be a dork or nerd these days. Look at comic con attendance rates. Look at revenues for the Marvel movies. We as a social group have been massively expanded, change in our demographics is a given as more and more diverse groups of individuals find our little niche within a niche.
As far as women being driven away from our little corner of the greater room of humanity I'd be hard pressed not to believe there aren't individuals out there that do contribute to to that sort of effect, the portrayal of females in the games and properties themselves could be an issue, but more of an issue I think is the pushback received when people ask say for reasonably dressed female minis. A lack of boob plate and chain mail bikinis which tend to dominate the various minis ranges. Finding female models in decent armor is actually difficult. That isn't to say there isn't room for cheesecake or stylistic choices, but given how irrationally angry some people get when their boat is getting rocked or their "space" is being invaded it's easy to see why some new people might feel unwelcome.
The last time I started a thread about well armored and well done female minis, besides being called a Feminazi inside of three posts, myself and some of the female posters who joined the discussion were informed several times that our hobby is a "guy" thing with the same type of petulant squawking you hear from adolescents with a "no girls allowed" treehouse.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
The reason you don't find many female gamers is pretty dang simple: entrenched gender roles. Gaming* is viewed as a largely male-oriented hobby, therefore you don't find many women playing games, therefore gaming culture becomes more male centric, which in turn drives women away, which in turn makes gaming more male centric, which in turn drives women away, etc etc.
~Tim?
*by "gaming" I mean wargames, and to a lesser extent tabletop** games in general and video games.
**as an aside, the world of non-wargame tabletop games like Settlers of Catan or other designer boardgames is much more female friendly - a ratio of 1/3 women to men at conventions for those kinds of games is pretty normal, and more and more the ratio is becoming more like 50/50.
Inkubas wrote: What are some of the experiences that you guys have come across with female players? Is there something about the hobby or the community that is a deterrent? Are you guys seeing more women players? If you're a female player, what has got you to start and continue playing the game?
She then discovered wargaming. She really likes painting and seems to enjoy wargaming in itself, but it's mostly historicals. Not interested in WHFB, really dislikes 40k. I think she feels like the setting is somehow immature, but doesn't really want to tell me why she doesn't like these games. Whatever.
She only plays at home, with me and a couple friends... Let's say bringing her to a GW store wasn't the best idea I ever had.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/09 17:11:41
I think the biggest reason there aren't more female players is because there aren't already female players. Wargaming is a really specific niche, isn't advertised, and when you go in to learn about it you are faced with a "male energy" room. The managers are male, the players are male, practically every box has assumed male characters. Only a few days ago a guy and his girlfriend came in, and both were pretty interested, but the girl less so. But when she found out about the female inclusive armies, she was much more interested.
There's also probably the assumption that all women are the stereotypical girl who likes dolls and dresses ans whatnot, when that is the complete opposite of the case. It's like being a female videogamer - they're just normal people.
Maybe if there wrre female managers, better representation of women in the game, and getting SOB back in stores would all open up a large amount of new players .
One last comment: Guys, wash yourselves. My local GW doesn't stink but I know that there are some people there who don't wash themselves. No one likes stinky wargames.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/09 16:19:38
I run several Slaanesh themed armies (Beastmen, CSM, Traitor Guard) and have freely used some nude minis in them. I run the previous edition metal Daemonettes (the pretty ones with the tendril hair). I freely admit that I have exposed boobies on display in some of my armies.
But that Tau mini was... OK, it was well-painted and very well sculpted. It looks good; no doubt. The creator's description of the model, however, is what made it offensive. I mean, wow. You're always running a risk with naked models in your army, but coming up with some kind of a backstory for a pimp Tau? That involves breeding programs? Seriously, I toss a few naked boobies into my armies because: Slaanesh. Also because I don't date much, but I'm sure there isn't a connection (it's not like I *only* run Slaanesh armies). I don't have backstories that involve breeding programs. The semi-clad girls clinging to my slaaneshi tanks don't have a backstory. Making one would be wierd. And super-creepy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/09 16:45:30
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
Wow. Great points made.
Growing up I was a bit of a punk and social outcast. I later grew up and started to treat women like people and make some awesome friends because of it. Now I'm hitting my 30s and I have a beautiful wife and I hope that our culture is breaking down gender roles. Unfortunately, I find that there are still people that haven't matured yet and its a shame. I'd love to see more female war gamers ( heck more people in general) but I'm not sure at this point if the deterrent is the state of mind from conditioning ( from both sides) or from just the atmosphere. While my wife may never consign herself to playing, I do so hope that my daughters will. And, I will personally advocate this hobby and do my part to create as much a positive environment as I can. I hope you all will too.
Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman.
paulson games wrote: ...
If every time you went into the store and somebody made a crack about your weight, penis size, performance, or anything else that demeans you I don't think you'd frequent those stores for long either...
I actually find this to be false. Most guys will trash talk with each other after they become tight. It's a brotherly thing almost, my group would never be impolite to a newcomer but we tend to chide each other in jest.
I think that misunderstanding may be a part of the problem. Treat female gamers too differently and you can come across patronizing, treat them like one of the guys and you risk coming off as inappropriate and hostile. Most men (at least the ones I know) would be happy gaming with women, but it can be difficult to create an accommodating atmosphere. And let's face it, a lot of gamers have issues picking up subtle(or even not so subtle) social cues.
So, it's not really representation inside the game that's the problem. Believe it or not, straight girls seem to like stories about sexy (or at least buff) guys just as much as guys like movies with sexy ladies in them.
Yeah. Talking about Thor with my sister was awkward.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/09 17:07:16
I notice my posts seem to bring threads to a screeching halt. Considering the content of most threads on dakka, you're welcome.
Deunstephe wrote: One last comment: Guys, wash yourselves. My local GW doesn't stink but I know that there are some people there who don't wash themselves. No one likes stinky wargames.
Mahtamori wrote: P.s. I don't think the sexualization of females (Wych cults) or males (Catachans) in itself is a problem
Catachan are not sexualized. The day the artworks for Catachan emphasize their asses or nipples, then I will agree that they are sexualized. Until then, only BA get to be arguably sexualized.
MWHistorian wrote: She really liked Minions, but no female character. She said she wa sticking to Vampire Counts.
There is one coming IIRC. A female Gatorwoman caster. And, thanks goodness, Privateer Press remembered that reptiles are not mammals and therefore have no boobs.
About the smell/hygiene problem, have you thought of actually telling the guys that they smell bad? I am serious. Do it tactfully and friendly, but do it. I used to take a bath about, I guess, once a week. After two or three people in a row told me how I smelled bad, I started taking a shower every morning, and I bought a deodorant. I have a bad sense of smell, and I really did not realized that I was annoying people around me. Really, I feel better now that I know I am not a nuisance to people just by being around them anymore. Do it, they will thank you later .
Wait when did male nipples become sexualized? What have I missed and asses? I didn't even think they were that popular?
paulson games wrote: ...
If every time you went into the store and somebody made a crack about your weight, penis size, performance, or anything else that demeans you I don't think you'd frequent those stores for long either...
I actually find this to be false. Most guys will trash talk with each other after they become tight. It's a brotherly thing almost, my group would never be impolite to a newcomer but we tend to chide each other in jest.
I think that misunderstanding may be a part of the problem. Treat female gamers too differently and you can come across patronizing, treat them like one of the guys and you risk coming off as inappropriate and hostile. Most men (at least the ones I know) would be happy gaming with women, but it can be difficult to create an accommodating atmosphere. And let's face it, a lot of gamers have issues picking up subtle(or even not so subtle) social cues.
Strange. In my local (Admittedly tiny, <10 people.) meta I we trash talk each other a lot for fun because we are such good buddies. I like it, it feels relaxed and a sign of a solid friendship.
Hell, I find it easier to befriend boys than girls- once you get past the obvious issues they tend to be much more difficult to consternate.
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
Mahtamori wrote: P.s. I don't think the sexualization of females (Wych cults) or males (Catachans) in itself is a problem
Catachan are not sexualized. The day the artworks for Catachan emphasize their asses or nipples, then I will agree that they are sexualized. Until then, only BA get to be arguably sexualized.
MWHistorian wrote: She really liked Minions, but no female character. She said she wa sticking to Vampire Counts.
There is one coming IIRC. A female Gatorwoman caster. And, thanks goodness, Privateer Press remembered that reptiles are not mammals and therefore have no boobs.
About the smell/hygiene problem, have you thought of actually telling the guys that they smell bad? I am serious. Do it tactfully and friendly, but do it. I used to take a bath about, I guess, once a week. After two or three people in a row told me how I smelled bad, I started taking a shower every morning, and I bought a deodorant. I have a bad sense of smell, and I really did not realized that I was annoying people around me. Really, I feel better now that I know I am not a nuisance to people just by being around them anymore. Do it, they will thank you later .
Wait when did male nipples become sexualized? What have I missed and asses? I didn't even think they were that popular?
Spend like...one day on tumblr or pinterest.
You'll be far more enlightened with regards to women.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Note: this is not true of all wargaming communities. The community around GW games seems to be the worst of the bunch with 40k being the worst of the GW games.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Psienesis wrote: It is actually true of all wargaming (and other gaming) communities. The difference is only in local groups. Some are definitely worse than others.
On the flip-side, you get things like the Dickwolves controversy from Penny Arcade.
Link?
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
Deunstephe wrote: One last comment: Guys, wash yourselves. My local GW doesn't stink but I know that there are some people there who don't wash themselves. No one likes stinky wargames.
Something to bear in mind: teenage guys just stink, it is a hormonal thing unfortunately.
http://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/what-is-smell-147185.html "Teenage boys smell peculiar due in part to the hormones they secrete in their sweat. Sweat is different smelling once a person hits puberty. They also develop more sweat glands, particularly apocrine sweat glands that are located under the arms and in the genital area. Bacteria thrive on apocrine sweat and the decaying bacteria cause the unique odor. Using an anti-bacterial body wash might help, along with daily (at least) showers. It'll get better as he matures.
So for an inclusive gaming shop, you need good air movement and outside air or at least air fresheners.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/09 21:30:12
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Psienesis wrote: It is actually true of all wargaming (and other gaming) communities. The difference is only in local groups. Some are definitely worse than others.
On the flip-side, you get things like the Dickwolves controversy from Penny Arcade.
Consider how global conflict is usually started, and sustained by the males of our society. The thematic emblems or war, heraldry, and patriarchs are decidedly male. It is no wonder males are drawn to the gaming aspect of it. Even modeling... when the models themselves wield double bladed battle axes or high powered firearms, the better for wreaking death and destruction, Hmmmm... could that have something to do with it? While stereotypes ignore individuals, they're generated from impressions that are not always false.
I have two daughters and one son and we've tried hard to raise them in as gender neutral a manner as possible... but at least in the cases of our kids, the differences between boys and girls is more than anatomical. I also tried getting my wife to play or model, even to try Netrunner or MtG and no dice. Her upper threshold is Dominion. I've finally come to the realization that there's different strokes for different strokes. Which is why I won't be having my nails done this Sunday during mother's day.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/09 22:16:41
I can summarize quite easily why there are less females who play the game.
Both me and my girlfriend play 40k and once when we were in a store a man walked in and shouted "Sacrilege, female in the store." Whilst they may or may not have been joking the owner told him to shut up and we both get on quite well with him.
I think one of main reasons there are less female players is the players themselves rather than most things to do with the actual game.
But on another note I'm a student at university and I live with 5 other people, all of which play 40k (4 guys, 2 girls). We all own different (and multiple armies) but its nice that we all have the same interest.
Ultramarines - 12,000(Estimate) Necrons - 4935 to 6255(Varies on wargear) Chaos - 3000(Estimate) Tyranids - 2100(Estimate)
Deunstephe wrote: One last comment: Guys, wash yourselves. My local GW doesn't stink but I know that there are some people there who don't wash themselves. No one likes stinky wargames.
Something to bear in mind: teenage guys just stink, it is a hormonal thing unfortunately.
http://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/what-is-smell-147185.html "Teenage boys smell peculiar due in part to the hormones they secrete in their sweat. Sweat is different smelling once a person hits puberty. They also develop more sweat glands, particularly apocrine sweat glands that are located under the arms and in the genital area. Bacteria thrive on apocrine sweat and the decaying bacteria cause the unique odor. Using an anti-bacterial body wash might help, along with daily (at least) showers. It'll get better as he matures.
So for an inclusive gaming shop, you need good air movement and outside air or at least air fresheners.
It's true teenage guys stink, but still: have a wash! You'll feel better, smell better, and people won't think you're a Nurgling. Also helps to not wear the same clothes you've been wearing for a while. Far too many teenage guys do this, just remember the days from high school locker rooms!
That means more maintenance. You arent going to stink like a week-old dirty pair of underwear if you shower daily and wear deodorant unless you were REALLY sweating since your last shower, usually meaning a lot of physical work or intense heat (more than just the "im hot" feeling, more like "OMG SO HOT FETH ME" lol).
It also applies to big guys. You got nearly twice the body i do, you need to do double the maintenance man. You dont shower for a couple days and you got fat rolls you are going to STINK.
Even with my bad sense of smell, i notice when big people dont shower.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
2375
/ 
WIP (1875)
1300
760
WIP (350)
WIP (150) 
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights