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My wife paints models.
She isn't a gamer and will never be one.
She doesn't deny me my hobby (or despise it) so it's all good - besides, there are other games we can play ...
Most of the gamers in my area are male. Stinky males. There are a few girl gamers, and this is a good thing - but they are still no more than about 2% of the demographic.
There's just something about most minis games that just don't appeal to most girls/women. Some prefer the pretty minis of malifaux, many prefer card games.
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
Mahtamori wrote: P.s. I don't think the sexualization of females (Wych cults) or males (Catachans) in itself is a problem
Catachan are not sexualized. The day the artworks for Catachan emphasize their asses or nipples, then I will agree that they are sexualized. Until then, only BA get to be arguably sexualized.
MWHistorian wrote: She really liked Minions, but no female character. She said she wa sticking to Vampire Counts.
There is one coming IIRC. A female Gatorwoman caster. And, thanks goodness, Privateer Press remembered that reptiles are not mammals and therefore have no boobs.
About the smell/hygiene problem, have you thought of actually telling the guys that they smell bad? I am serious. Do it tactfully and friendly, but do it. I used to take a bath about, I guess, once a week. After two or three people in a row told me how I smelled bad, I started taking a shower every morning, and I bought a deodorant. I have a bad sense of smell, and I really did not realized that I was annoying people around me. Really, I feel better now that I know I am not a nuisance to people just by being around them anymore. Do it, they will thank you later .
Wait when did male nipples become sexualized? What have I missed and asses? I didn't even think they were that popular?
Spend like...one day on tumblr or pinterest.
You'll be far more enlightened with regards to women.
Late but just wanted to respond. Please I hardly can keep track of what men like in women Well I guess I've learned something.
My wife and I wanted to play for years and finally had the time, so we started together and a year later we both have huge armies.
She plays pretty much the same reason I play, she likes competitive strategy and we play well together. She also has an attachment to her army which I think is common amongst most players.
We recently started going to DZ in Glen Burnie, MD and she's delighted to finally see some females around, even if they almost 100% just paint.
I find the "lack of female models = lack of female players" argument pretty weak. Warmachine is infinitely better at having women represented in its armies, and I don't see any more women playing Warmachine than I do Warhammer.
I've been gaming for 25+ years, and I've gamed with plenty of women, but even girls who were hardcore into RPGs and sci-fi get glassy eyed and stop paying attention as soon as dudes start talking about their armies.
I don't know, I get that equality is great and all, but sometimes I feel like some people really try to force it when its not really important. In the grand scheme of things does it actually matter that girls aren't into Warhammer? I mean, it's not like playing Warhammer is a secret gateway to the halls of power in our society. Women aren't being denied the right to play Warhammer, and its not hurting women that they don't play. So why all the fuss?
Another way of looking at is like this: Only girls care about knitting as a hobby. Almost all the chicks I know are knitters, and they get together for these things called "stitch and *****", and there are never dudes there. None of them has ever made any attempt to invite me or try to get me (or any other guy) interested in knitting. Everybody is totally cool with the reality that knitting is a chick thing.
Warhammer is a dude thing. That's not a problem that needs solving.
friendlycommissar wrote: In the grand scheme of things does it actually matter that girls aren't into Warhammer?
That depends on the reason why there are so few women playing the game. If it's genuinely the case that very few women are interested then that's fine, there's no problem with hobbies that just happen to not have a 50/50 gender split. But if it's a case of women who would be interested being driven away then yes, it matters.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
The wider implications can be more worrying however. Do we say there are not as many women in charge of companies as men because "chicks are not into it"? Are we fine with science being dominated by saussage?
Or do we have to look at why there are fewer women in these fields than men and maybe do something to get things more equal?
It may be something cultural that women feel from a young age that they would not fit in certain fields and so subconciously they go somewhere else. Certainly there is not a competancy issue with males and females in any arena...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 08:15:30
friendlycommissar wrote: In the grand scheme of things does it actually matter that girls aren't into Warhammer?
That depends on the reason why there are so few women playing the game. If it's genuinely the case that very few women are interested then that's fine, there's no problem with hobbies that just happen to not have a 50/50 gender split. But if it's a case of women who would be interested being driven away then yes, it matters.
Why? I mean, say there is some theoretical woman who would enjoy Warhammer if the guys who currently play Warhammer were, I dunno, different guys. Okay, so? Why is that important? Ok, so she doesn't like hanging out with the lads because she finds the lads to be a bunch of crass jerks. So...she goes and finds a different hobby where the people are people she gets on with. Right?
It's not a human rights issue or anything.
SilverMK2 wrote: The wider implications can be more worrying however. Do we say there are not as many women in charge of companies as men because "chicks are not into it"? Are we fine with science being dominated by saussage?
Or do we have to look at why there are fewer women in these fields than men and maybe do something to get things more equal?
Yeah, see, this is kind of my point. Warhammer is nothing at all like "the sciences" or "executive positions at major corporations." It's completely trivial.
Warhammer is just something the lads do over beers when they're hanging out being lads. If some girls feel excluded...well, why should anyone care?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 08:26:00
friendlycommissar wrote: Yeah, see, this is kind of my point. Warhammer is nothing at all like "the sciences" or "executive positions at major corporations." It's completely trivial.
The issue in warhammer are an expression of the same underlying issue. That being the subtle (or not so subtle in some cases) exclusion of females compared to males.
It is the same issue seen in the knitting circles mentioned previously where more males are excluded than females.
And it is the same as science, or business, or nursing, etc where there is a significant shift in the makeup of each profession along gender lines.
It is important to diagnose why that might be and if there is something that can be done to correct it (and perhaps even if it needs correcting) rather than just shrug and say "that's life".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 08:40:50
SilverMK2 wrote: The issue in warhammer are an expression of the same underlying issue. That being the subtle (or not so subtle in some cases) exclusion of females compared to males.
It is the same issue seen in the knitting circles mentioned previously where more males are excluded than females.
Yeah, I just don't get it. Sometimes guys want to hang out with other guys. Sometimes chicks want to hang out with other chicks. This is not an "issue." I mean, there's a very real difference between hanging out with a group that's all the same gender and a group that's mixed gender. Totally different social dynamics. I'm willing to bet that every time a girl has been excluded from a Warhammer group, it's because the purpose of that particular group was male bonding and the gaming was sort of tangential to that.
That's not really an issue with Warhammer. A world in which 50% of Warhammer players are women is not a better world. It's just a different world. There's really no point in trying to make that happen, unless you've just got some kind of ideological axe to grind with dudes hanging out and having dude time.
friendlycommissar wrote: I find the "lack of female models = lack of female players" argument pretty weak. Warmachine is infinitely better at having women represented in its armies, and I don't see any more women playing Warmachine than I do Warhammer.
That's a fun discussion topic and a question dear to my own heart. I've wondered sometimes: would I rather be ignored completely by game developers - say, a game where 100% of the characters are men with no reasoning given - or represented badly - for example, with sexualised characters? Warmachine isn't super horrible with this, but you can expect a female character to have 3-4 of the following: exposed midriff, heels (occasionally high), boob plate and related stupid-looking armour (including what looks like a metal corset), and ridiculous poses. It's like the artists used porn as their only references for how to draw women.
I'm curious how other people feel about this, partly because I still don't know how I feel about it. Do you prefer not being represented at all over being represented badly?
chromedog wrote: Most of the gamers in my area are male. Stinky males.
I think that's the problem here. While their amount in local communities may vary, the stereotypical "awkward, sweaty, weird nerds" often come to places such as FLGSes to get their dose of gaming, social interactions and stuff like that. Depending on how awkward/sweaty they are, their ability to scare girls away varies but we all have to admit that it's not really going to make a good impression when you bring your interested girlfriend to a place that, well, reeks with sweat and . And I think girls don't really like spending time in places like that, especially if there also happen to be any of the stereotypical trillby-wearing neckbeards with their 4chan humour that often deals in sexism.
Of course don't get me wrong, I understand those awkward guys and I don't really mind them - they have their issues with social interactions and in places like that they can be nerds and be accepted by others there, that's really great for them. That's why girls are less likely to spend time in such places, though - nerdy(not just geeky) atmosphere, various smells, awkward people that avoid or keep utterly constant eye contact.. not really the kind of men most girls like to spend time with.
chromedog wrote: There's just something about most minis games that just don't appeal to most girls/women. Some prefer the pretty minis of malifaux, many prefer card games.
That sounds like another huge problem - call me sexist but most girls aren't interested in strategy games. What I've seen among the geeky part of my female friends(because casuals don't really play anything) is that they don't like the raw, dry feel of strategy games. Women tend to favour some emotional stuff and tight-knitted plot with some possible drama that most video games simply lack, because it's not their niche, with some exceptions being Blizzard RTS games because of their heavy emphasis on plot and them being 'classics' but most other strategies simply do not provide that layer of immersion.. and neither does 40k unless you really forge the narrative for your games.. and even then wargaming feels very raw.. it's still just a toy soldier brawl. What I think would be more successful at bringing geeky women to wargaming is missions and scenarios. Let's admit it - even if we make a plot excuse for BRB-provided missions, it's still nowhere near being plot-driven and the only difference is between toy soldiers brawling on the table and toy soldiers brawling at particular spots of the table. Nor do girls seem to fancy having an army the way men do - what I've noticed is that they'd rather have a small party of pretty miniatures.
As Chromedog mentioned, Malifaux is probably closest to catering to that, especially with the ease of making up plot and scenarios in skirmish games, rather than running blocks of units and rolling dice for bazillion of shooting attacks. That's why most girls I know go for either board games(especially cooperative ones) or M:tG(pretty artworks, themed decks, M:tG players being much more mature and 'normal' here), occasionally trying skirmish games. It seems that it's just a hobby for men, as simple as that. Kinda like guns - there are a few of female gun nuts, but for vast majority it's just not their cup of tea.
friendlycommissar wrote: Yeah, I just don't get it. Sometimes guys want to hangout with other guys. Sometimes chicks want to hang out with other chicks. This is not an "issue." I mean, there's a very real difference between hanging out with a group that's all the same gender and a group that's mixed gender. Totally different social dynamics. I'm willing to bet that every time a girl has been excluded from a Warhammer group, it's because the purpose of that particular group was male bonding and the gaming was sort of tangential to that.
"It is nice you want to hang out with us man... just a shame we are really only looking to hang out with guys who are the same colour as us... oh yeah, we play wargames too and its not like we actually hate dudes of other colous but mostly we are here to be colourbros with one another. Maybe you should try knitting."
However, we are still completely ignoring the fact that even without bumhats driving people out, there are still far less women who even consider wargaming, let alone who make an attempt to get into the hobby.
Is that not a question which needs asking as part of the larger study of how the genders interact?
friendlycommissar wrote: I find the "lack of female models = lack of female players" argument pretty weak. Warmachine is infinitely better at having women represented in its armies, and I don't see any more women playing Warmachine than I do Warhammer.
That's a fun discussion topic and a question dear to my own heart. I've wondered sometimes: would I rather be ignored completely by game developers - say, a game where 100% of the characters are men with no reasoning given - or represented badly - for example, with sexualised characters? Warmachine isn't super horrible with this, but you can expect a female character to have 3-4 of the following: exposed midriff, heels (occasionally high), boob plate and related stupid-looking armour (including what looks like a metal corset), and ridiculous poses. It's like the artists used porn as their only references for how to draw women.
I'm curious how other people feel about this, partly because I still don't know how I feel about it. Do you prefer not being represented at all over being represented badly?
I'd question the assumption that what you are calling "sexualized" is synonymous with being presented "badly." There is a strong correlation between sex and power, especially in fantasy. Most women, when they imagine themselves as being powerful, imagine themselves as also being sexy. Partially because women's empowerment and women's sexual liberation are so deeply intertwined. A woman who owns her sexuality owns herself, and a woman who owns her sexuality is sexy. Do a search for Warmachine and Hordes cosplay, and who are women cosplaying? The dark elves and the satykis raiders. The witch coven. Some of the most scantily clad, "sexualized" characters in the game. Why not Dirty Meg or the female Troll (forget her name)? Because being sexy is part of the fantasy. Seriously, if there was any real demand from women for plain, unappealing women in fantasy, someone would be selling it to them. But there isn't, pretty much like there isn't a market for selling guys the fantasy of a being a dull, fat schlub.
This conversation reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the female players in my old Pathfinder group. She was complaining about how "all" the female miniatures were sexualized. Since I knew that was nonsense, I showed her Reaper's online catalog, focusing on Julie Guthrie sculpts. The ones with the women in "realistic" armor and modest, unsexualized clothing. She dismissed them all as boring and dull, then picked out a Bobby Jackson sculpt wearing a dress with a boob window and skirt slit to the hip, which to her was "not sexualized." My takeaway for this was that these kind of complaints are mostly nonsense.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Do you prefer not being represented at all over being represented badly?
It depends on how badly. I can make do with World of Warcraft levels of misrepresentation (Disturbingly slim, strangely becoming more revealing when equipped by female characters, stereotypically kawaiii voice-acting.) but that is pretty much it. Beyond that I'd rather have female absence. I can make do with my Chaos Space Marine army just fine. I generally prefer playing a female character when a deep plot is present (E.g my WoW roleplay) but when it's just carnage for fun and characters are secondary (Like in 40K) gender quickly becomes much less relevant.
Klerych wrote:That sounds like another huge problem - call me sexist but most girls aren't interested in strategy games. What I've seen among the geeky part of my female friends(because casuals don't really play anything) is that they don't like the raw, dry feel of strategy games. Women tend to favour some emotional stuff and tight-knitted plot with some possible drama that most video games simply lack, because it's not their niche, with some exceptions being Blizzard RTS games because of their heavy emphasis on plot and them being 'classics' but most other strategies simply do not provide that layer of immersion.. and neither does 40k unless you really forge the narrative for your games.. and even then wargaming feels very raw.. it's still just a toy soldier brawl. What I think would be more successful at bringing geeky women to wargaming is missions and scenarios. Let's admit it - even if we make a plot excuse for BRB-provided missions, it's still nowhere near being plot-driven and the only difference is between toy soldiers brawling on the table and toy soldiers brawling at particular spots of the table. Nor do girls seem to fancy having an army the way men do - what I've noticed is that they'd rather have a small party of pretty miniatures.
As Chromedog mentioned, Malifaux is probably closest to catering to that, especially with the ease of making up plot and scenarios in skirmish games, rather than running blocks of units and rolling dice for bazillion of shooting attacks. That's why most girls I know go for either board games(especially cooperative ones) or M:tG(pretty artworks, themed decks, M:tG players being much more mature and 'normal' here), occasionally trying skirmish games. It seems that it's just a hobby for men, as simple as that. Kinda like guns - there are a few of female gun nuts, but for vast majority it's just not their cup of tea.
Generally I think you may have hit the nail on the head here, honestly. The problem however lies in that the community is not open enough to women who do like this. Of course, there are plenty of communities that are, but likewise many that are less so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 09:36:34
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
Yeah, I just don't get it. Sometimes guys want to hang out with other guys. Sometimes chicks want to hang out with other chicks. This is not an "issue." I mean, there's a very real difference between hanging out with a group that's all the same gender and a group that's mixed gender. Totally different social dynamics. I'm willing to bet that every time a girl has been excluded from a Warhammer group, it's because the purpose of that particular group was male bonding and the gaming was sort of tangential to that.
This is illustrates the larger societal problem perfectly: many men think that women are some strange aliens that are to be treated differently (and it is okay to exclude them.) This is just bs. Why does it need to be 'male bonding' instead of hanging out with friends (of any gender)?
friendlycommissar wrote: I find the "lack of female models = lack of female players" argument pretty weak. Warmachine is infinitely better at having women represented in its armies, and I don't see any more women playing Warmachine than I do Warhammer.
That's a fun discussion topic and a question dear to my own heart. I've wondered sometimes: would I rather be ignored completely by game developers - say, a game where 100% of the characters are men with no reasoning given - or represented badly - for example, with sexualised characters? Warmachine isn't super horrible with this, but you can expect a female character to have 3-4 of the following: exposed midriff, heels (occasionally high), boob plate and related stupid-looking armour (including what looks like a metal corset), and ridiculous poses. It's like the artists used porn as their only references for how to draw women.
I'm curious how other people feel about this, partly because I still don't know how I feel about it. Do you prefer not being represented at all over being represented badly?
I'd question the assumption that what you are calling "sexualized" is synonymous with being presented "badly." There is a strong correlation between sex and power, especially in fantasy. Most women, when they imagine themselves as being powerful, imagine themselves as also being sexy. Partially because women's empowerment and women's sexual liberation are so deeply intertwined. A woman who owns her sexuality owns herself, and a woman who owns her sexuality is sexy. Do a search for Warmachine and Hordes cosplay, and who are women cosplaying? The dark elves and the satykis raiders. The witch coven. Some of the most scantily clad, "sexualized" characters in the game. Why not Dirty Meg or the female Troll (forget her name)? Because being sexy is part of the fantasy. Seriously, if there was any real demand from women for plain, unappealing women in fantasy, someone would be selling it to them. But there isn't, pretty much like there isn't a market for selling guys the fantasy of a being a dull, fat schlub.
This conversation reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the female players in my old Pathfinder group. She was complaining about how "all" the female miniatures were sexualized. Since I knew that was nonsense, I showed her Reaper's online catalog, focusing on Julie Guthrie sculpts. The ones with the women in "realistic" armor and modest, unsexualized clothing. She dismissed them all as boring and dull, then picked out a Bobby Jackson sculpt wearing a dress with a boob window and skirt slit to the hip, which to her was "not sexualized." My takeaway for this was that these kind of complaints are mostly nonsense.
Most of the miniatures I was thinking about while writing that post (because they are sitting in my paint station right now) are female trolls. That's part of what's so ridiculous about it - you can't even play the "monster" faction without being subjected to metal corsets, boob plate, heels, etc.
But my post was not about what constitutes a bad portrayal. I'm sure all of us have different ideas of what constitutes a bad portrayal, and different parts of that are relevant in different contexts - most of my thought on the topic has been related to video games, not miniatures ones. My question was about the point where it becomes preferable to not be depicted at all, because not being depicted is one way to sidestep all the cultural baggage that comes with those depictions.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Do you prefer not being represented at all over being represented badly?
It depends on how badly. I can make do with World of Warcraft levels of misrepresentation (Disturbingly slim, strangely becoming more revealing when equipped by female characters, stereotypically kawaiii voice-acting.) but that is pretty much it. Beyond that I'd rather have female absence. I can make do with my Chaos Space Marine army just fine. I generally prefer playing a female character when a deep plot is present (E.g my WoW roleplay) but when it's just carnage for fun and characters are secondary (Like in 40K) gender quickly becomes much less relevant.
I think that's my breakpoint roughly too. I suspect Warmachine is actually slightly past it in some regards, but in others it's fine (most of the stupid stuff is in the art, whereas their portayal in the fluff I've read is good). And yes, I'd rate it as more important in a freeform RPG than in something with pregenerated characters or lots of generic characters.
friendlycommissar wrote: Yeah, I just don't get it. Sometimes guys want to hangout with other guys. Sometimes chicks want to hang out with other chicks. This is not an "issue." I mean, there's a very real difference between hanging out with a group that's all the same gender and a group that's mixed gender. Totally different social dynamics. I'm willing to bet that every time a girl has been excluded from a Warhammer group, it's because the purpose of that particular group was male bonding and the gaming was sort of tangential to that.
"It is nice you want to hang out with us man... just a shame we are really only looking to hang out with guys who are the same colour as us... oh yeah, we play wargames too and its not like we actually hate dudes of other colous but mostly we are here to be colourbros with one another. Maybe you should try knitting."
Now you're being completely ridiculous. Race and gender are completely different, and to try to swap one for the other is utterly inane. You know what your very bad attempt at a damning analogy has completely forgotten?
Sex.
I'll give you an example. My last Pathfinder group exploded because one of the players brought a girl to join the group. I was against it because I knew he was inviting her to play with us because he was attracted to her and I also knew right away that she wasn't into him (and no shock, he was seriously overweight, wore coke bottle glasses and was very hairy). Now one of the other guys in the group was, to be frank, gorgeous. Dude could be a male model. Now, this didn't mean anything when it was just 5 guys in the group. But as soon as this girl joined it became a problem. Because she fawned over him, flirted with him, supported his call at every turn, and made it abundantly clear that she was totally into him and not any of the rest of us. And the guy who invited her to join? He got mad jealous. And the good looking dude who she was fawning over? He got mad uncomfortable because a) he was engaged and b) he could tell it was causing huge amounts of friction with the other players, who were getting real sick of his sudden First Amongst Equals position. I was just glad I was DMing and could hide behind my DM shield. Eventually the girl started complaining to me about the guy who invited her to join, accusing him of being sexist, of being creepy, of being gross, etc. She talked about him when he left the room and before he got to the game, and made it clear to everyone that she thought he was a loser...and everyone started treating him like a loser. So he quit the group. Then Mr. Ridiculously Gorgeous quit the group because he was tired of her flirting with him (and she had called him at home and got his fiance, which had created problems for him).
A dude of a different race joining the group wouldn't have changed the dynamic like that. When it was just us guys, nobody cared that one dude was overweight and hairy and one dude was Ridiculously Good Looking. It took a woman entering the group to make those differences suddenly relevant.
However, we are still completely ignoring the fact that even without bumhats driving people out, there are still far less women who even consider wargaming, let alone who make an attempt to get into the hobby.
Is that not a question which needs asking as part of the larger study of how the genders interact?
Not really. I mean, it's pretty obvious why that is. It's a war game. Girls don't find war as interesting as guys do, because war isn't fundamental to female identity. I mean, my generation is the first generation in...all of human history...that didn't get sent off to war in large numbers. But we're still surrounded by huge amounts of literature and media that promotes the "war makes men into boys" meme. That's why boys get into wargames, because War Is Manly. Being Good At War is Manly. Girls don't have the same drive and desire to prove their masculinity by beating other men in pointless, trivial contests.
Frankly, I think you're a lot less likely to get girls into wargames than you are to get wargames abolished as inherently bad for boys because it celebrates the whole War Is Manly thing.
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Crimson wrote: This is illustrates the larger societal problem perfectly: many men think that women are some strange aliens that are to be treated differently (and it is okay to exclude them.) This is just bs. Why does it need to be 'male bonding' instead of hanging out with friends (of any gender)?
Because women won't tolerate certain kinds of men, and will label them as creeps and losers and make sure that everyone else joins them in ostracizing those men. As soon as you have mixed genders in a group, you have the potential for relationship drama and all kinds of other social dynamics that some dudes (and some chicks), quite understandably, don't want to deal with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 10:06:51
Because women won't tolerate certain kinds of men, and will label them as creeps and losers and make sure that everyone else joins them in ostracizing those men.
All women do this and no man ever does it?
I'm a guy and won't tolerate certain kind of men (misogynists, for example.)
As soon as you have mixed genders in a group, you have the potential for relationship drama and all kinds of other social dynamics that some dudes (and some chicks), quite understandably, don't want to deal with.
Why this is only a problem in a mixed group? Ever heard of gay people?
It depends on how badly. I can make do with World of Warcraft levels of misrepresentation (Disturbingly slim, strangely becoming more revealing when equipped by female characters, stereotypically kawaiii voice-acting.)
Tell me, why do women wear make-up and clothing that most often compliments their body shape? Isn't it out of the desire to be pretty and appealing? While I understand that oversexualizing female armours and shapes is an issue nowadays, mostly thanks to eastern(most often japanese) games and their love for oppai, most girls would prefer play as a hot chick with near-perfect body, nice voice and wearing somewhat daring outfits rather than playing as bland, boring girl in casual dress. I mean.. there's a chance they feel like one in real life, even if they might not necessarily be like that. Men also prefer pretty women with pleasant voice, shapely body and clothing that compliments their features.. I mean.. everyone likes to look appealing and likes looking at appealing people, right? That, and as it was mentioned earlier - powerful women in fantasy are often associated with beauty and sex appeal and there's nothing hurting in that because I don't think there is a woman that wouldn't want to be both hot and successful and in case of most video games we're talking about great heroines that save the world. Why pretend to be a casual girl in a video game about world-saving superheroines? And just as mentioned - men don't seem to like playing as fat, sweaty, balding dudes either, and yet women never whine about every male character being muscular, manly, strong and handsome.. why is that?
Ashiraya wrote: Generally I think you may have hit the nail on the head here, honestly. The problem however lies in that the community is not open enough to women who do like this. Of course, there are plenty of communities that are, but likewise many that are less so.
Oh, I agree, but I also kind of understand why is it like that - those usually socially awkward nerds that make up parts of wargaming communities find comfort in a group of geeky and nerdy men.. a woman coming there strips them from that comfort. I've seen it many times as those more awkward just moved over to another table to have their little secluded circle when some people(including me) brought their girlfriends to the store. From a friendly "anything goes" group where everyone is accepted and can be as awkward as he wants it turns into a group where the socially awkward guys separate themselves from the other part and are uncomfortable, especially when they know they'll come out even more awkward when they do something in those girls' presence, stressing them. It might be different if the girl was a hoodie-wearing, nerdy 'girl next door', but if they see a hot girl, they get nervous and people have to understand that - some people have social problems and expecting them to just get over it is stupid. Of course the best thing to do would be for the girl to aknowledge their nerdiness and try to lower her social standards to the point she'd openly talk to the more akward ones or show some interest, but any kind of frown, grimace or bad look would effectively drive the nerd away.. and with the community and industry being nerd/geek centered, driving away someone like that is pretty bad.
As you said, the community isn't open enough to women who do like stuff like that, but then again women are 'invading' it and they bring a lot of change to the community, so they also should be very considerate and careful with their first impression. As it is now - women in the hobby are somewhat 'pioneers' and they have to make sure they fit in the community instead of trying to make it fit around them. More modest or geeky clothing, nice, polite look and friendly smiles instead of judgement can work wonders because nerds in their natural habitat feel threatened. Not to mention that most communities like sexist/racist/inappropriate jokes and a girl suddenly threatens that ecobalance as her presence, unless she proves like-minded, will change the way most people act and they will not be as relaxed as they would in exclusively manly group.
Klerych wrote: Not to mention that most communities like sexist/racist/inappropriate jokes and a girl suddenly threatens that ecobalance as her presence, unless she proves like-minded, will change the way most people act and they will not be as relaxed as they would in exclusively manly group.
Well that at least was honest: men don't like women joining their groups because then they cannot be openly sexist asshats. What a tragedy...
It depends on how badly. I can make do with World of Warcraft levels of misrepresentation (Disturbingly slim, strangely becoming more revealing when equipped by female characters, stereotypically kawaiii voice-acting.)
Tell me, why do women wear make-up and clothing that most often compliments their body shape? Isn't it out of the desire to be pretty and appealing? While I understand that oversexualizing female armours and shapes is an issue nowadays, mostly thanks to eastern(most often japanese) games and their love for oppai, most girls would prefer play as a hot chick with near-perfect body, nice voice and wearing somewhat daring outfits rather than playing as bland, boring girl in casual dress. I mean.. there's a chance they feel like one in real life, even if they might not necessarily be like that. Men also prefer pretty women with pleasant voice, shapely body and clothing that compliments their features.. I mean.. everyone likes to look appealing and likes looking at appealing people, right? That, and as it was mentioned earlier - powerful women in fantasy are often associated with beauty and sex appeal and there's nothing hurting in that because I don't think there is a woman that wouldn't want to be both hot and successful and in case of most video games we're talking about great heroines that save the world. Why pretend to be a casual girl in a video game about world-saving superheroines? And just as mentioned - men don't seem to like playing as fat, sweaty, balding dudes either, and yet women never whine about every male character being muscular, manly, strong and handsome.. why is that?
The point this stuff becomes a problem is when you start carrying the subtext that nothing a woman does matters unless she's also attractive to men (especially sexually), and that women can and should be sexualised at all times but men shouldn't (in other words, that only the male perspective matters, the female perspective is irrelevant).
Also, the idea that there's only one idea of what's attractive that everyone shares and that everyone else should want to conform to it is 1. unrealistic, 2. harmful and 3. unfortunately common.
Klerych wrote: Not to mention that most communities like sexist/racist/inappropriate jokes and a girl suddenly threatens that ecobalance as her presence, unless she proves like-minded, will change the way most people act and they will not be as relaxed as they would in exclusively manly group.
Well that at least was honest: men don't like women joining their groups because then they cannot be openly sexist asshats. What a tragedy...
Are you aware that you rather sound like a cynical douche there, mate?
I know you understand what I wrote, but deliberately decided to make a hyperbole to ridicule what I wrote and possibly even troll me, but for some reason I can't just ignore you and will elaborate on my point nonetheless.
So, let's see.. everyone likes to do stuff that is not acceptable/favourable in most communities. Be it farting, burping, telling inappropriate jokes, cursing, doing awkward stuff or saying unpopular opinions(note - despite those examples, not everything that you'd want to say in such a group has a negative connotation). See - if you have a group of friends that you've bonded with over time, there's a huge chance that your group started to accept your little quirks and/or share them. If you're well-mannered, you won't curse or say racist jokes(news flash - you don't have to be racist to find them funny or say them) in an official group such as your workplace. You probably won't do that when you meet your girlfriend's friends either because you'll want to make a good impression for her. But you can do that in group of your buddies that are likely to do same. Buddies won't mind if you scratch your balls or burp during a gaming evening and you're free to do so, because it's acceptable there. Same goes with talking about pissing out a waterfall after drinking beer or talking about funny-gross stuff. Now toss a girl in that group. Get what I'm saying? Of course now you'll say that not everyone is an animal and not every man acts like that, but most people who actually have lives like to have some time with their awesome, slowed buddies to vent out all that stiff crap they have to follow everyday.
Of course that draws a bad image of a man, but as surprising as it is, men sometimes like being lazy and not stressing themselves over what is socially acceptable, and if they can do it with their like-minded buddies, it's even better just like girls can swear, bitch and not pretend to be someone else when they're with their girlfriends.
friendlycommissar wrote: Now you're being completely ridiculous. Race and gender are completely different, and to try to swap one for the other is utterly inane.?
Race and gender have very strong ties historically. Certainly in some cultures being a woman and being a person of a certain race were seen as being "lower" than being a man. Some people of different racial groups also carry different cultural views around with them which can significantly impact upon how they interact with others of different races, sexes and cultures.
Would you say it was so ridiculous for certain races to be excluded from your gathering if culturally it was acceptable to marginalise those groups? It certainly happened one hell of a lot before it became culturally (and in some cases illegal) to discriminate against people based on race.
The point is only reinforced by your reaction to the comparison of "the good ol' boys club" "not being suitable for women" and "not being suitable for people of a different race" - you, even if you personally believe certain races should be excluded (not saying you do), feel a social pressure to publicly reject the idea while defending the culturally less serious transgression of excluding women on what can only be called the shakiest of grounds. In fact, grounds as shaky as those used to exclude blacks from being free people, from women getting the vote, or any number of other examples of cultural equality.
You know what your very bad attempt at a damning analogy has completely forgotten Sex.
No... I don't think it did. Because it does not explicitly mention sex, that does not mean that the example given was not meant as a parallel to the issue of gender.
I'll give you an example. My last Pathfinder group exploded because one of the players brought a girl to join the group. I was against it because I knew he was inviting her to play with us because he was attracted to her and I also knew right away that she wasn't into him (and no shock, he was seriously overweight, wore coke bottle glasses and was very hairy). Now one of the other guys in the group was, to be frank, gorgeous. Dude could be a male model. Now, this didn't mean anything when it was just 5 guys in the group. But as soon as this girl joined it became a problem. Because she fawned over him, flirted with him, supported his call at every turn, and made it abundantly clear that she was totally into him and not any of the rest of us. And the guy who invited her to join? He got mad jealous. And the good looking dude who she was fawning over? He got mad uncomfortable because a) he was engaged and b) he could tell it was causing huge amounts of friction with the other players, who were getting real sick of his sudden First Amongst Equals position. I was just glad I was DMing and could hide behind my DM shield. Eventually the girl started complaining to me about the guy who invited her to join, accusing him of being sexist, of being creepy, of being gross, etc. She talked about him when he left the room and before he got to the game, and made it clear to everyone that she thought he was a loser...and everyone started treating him like a loser. So he quit the group. Then Mr. Ridiculously Gorgeous quit the group because he was tired of her flirting with him (and she had called him at home and got his fiance, which had created problems for him).
A dude of a different race joining the group wouldn't have changed the dynamic like that. When it was just us guys, nobody cared that one dude was overweight and hairy and one dude was Ridiculously Good Looking. It took a woman entering the group to make those differences suddenly relevant.
I will not comment on a specific example. But yes - bringing in people of different backgrounds (including different genders) does have an impact on an existing group. Just look at any area where women joined the workforce or traditionally male dominated social arenas in the last couple of hundred years. You know what had to happen to those groups and industries? They had to evolve and adapt to address the kinds of issues you had with your group. Just as had to happen when people of different races and religions and cultures join a previously homogeneous population.
Not really. I mean, it's pretty obvious why that is. It's a war game. Girls don't find war as interesting as guys do, because war isn't fundamental to female identity. I mean, my generation is the first generation in...all of human history...that didn't get sent off to war in large numbers. But we're still surrounded by huge amounts of literature and media that promotes the "war makes men into boys" meme. That's why boys get into wargames, because War Is Manly. Being Good At War is Manly. Girls don't have the same drive and desire to prove their masculinity by beating other men in pointless, trivial contests
So, because you are happy with the status quo, you do not wish to understand the reason behind something? "Because chicks are not into it and boys are" is no more an answer than to point at it and say "god did it".
And again, wargaming is one single facet of the issue, not a self contained problem that can be shrugged off.
Edit: fixed quotes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 11:02:21
Tell me, why do women wear make-up and clothing that most often compliments their body shape? Isn't it out of the desire to be pretty and appealing? While I understand that oversexualizing female armours and shapes is an issue nowadays, mostly thanks to eastern(most often japanese) games and their love for oppai, most girls would prefer play as a hot chick with near-perfect body, nice voice and wearing somewhat daring outfits rather than playing as bland, boring girl in casual dress. I mean.. there's a chance they feel like one in real life, even if they might not necessarily be like that. Men also prefer pretty women with pleasant voice, shapely body and clothing that compliments their features.. I mean.. everyone likes to look appealing and likes looking at appealing people, right? That, and as it was mentioned earlier - powerful women in fantasy are often associated with beauty and sex appeal and there's nothing hurting in that because I don't think there is a woman that wouldn't want to be both hot and successful and in case of most video games we're talking about great heroines that save the world. Why pretend to be a casual girl in a video game about world-saving superheroines? And just as mentioned - men don't seem to like playing as fat, sweaty, balding dudes either, and yet women never whine about every male character being muscular, manly, strong and handsome.. why is that?
False equivalence as said, power fantasies versus objectification. I may be using hyperbole here, but to clarify, there's a difference between this
The former is an objectification. I would mind wearing the former.
The latter is not. I would not mind wearing the latter.
Hyperbole, yes, but I believe you may catch my drift.
Hell, to use a less extreme example, see Black Widow from the Winter Soldier film. Clearly intended to be very attractive yet not objectified in the slightest (Maybe aside from the boobwindow poster, lols.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 11:10:43
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
But why is this a gender issue? Yes, you can be more relaxed around your buddies, but that has nothing to do with gender. And if you find that you need to censor yourself around specific gender, ethnicity or minority, then you probably should check your attitudes. (And why the hell can't girls swear in mixed company and why they need to 'pretend to be someone else'?)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 11:10:37
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