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For my Imperial Fist allied detachment for my GK army, I have Centurion Devastators taking Grav-Cannons with Grav-amps but after reading over the rules, I have been wondering how useful they are. Going against a heavily armored infantry army like Space Marines, they are really good especially with the Hurricane Bolters backing them up but other than that, Grav-Cannons are good against vehicles or buildings and I have been starting to wonder about their usefulness. I remember when the codex first hit, they were something to be feared. It just doesn't seem that way. After looking over all the options and with the chapter tactics of Imperial Fists with Bolter Drills and Siege Masters, I would almost think to keep the Heavy Bolters with Missile Launchers in the chest. Is this sound thinking or are Grav-Cannons also good to take?

Grav Cannons are useful for several reasons however their biggest advantage is kill MCs and stripping HP from vehicles. You take hurricane bolters to make them useful against armies without vehicles, MCs, and TEQ. Grav cannons BTW are not good against buildings as they can only ever glance the building (so you could kill the stuff inside but you won't hurt the building).

Imperial Fist lascannon/missile launcher centurions are very good vehicle killers. They are also excellent at manning the quadd gun on an ADL as the omni scope gives split fire and attaching an IC to them gives the character tank hunters.

The heavy bolter centurions are fairly bad over all. Making them more expensive with the addition of missile launchers which are worse against their primary target is a bad trade. I would overall avoid these as you can get anti troop fire power and heavy bolters in so many other areas of the codex.

As long as you keep them away from buildings, Grav Centurions are like Samuel Adams. Always a good decision. (Especially if they've been given Prescience.)

The main purpose of the Centurions is to provide a big enough threat to my opponent making them decide whether they want to go after Mordrak and his Ghost Knights, the Interceptors and the DK who have shunted in or do they go after the Devastator Centurions that have an Inquisitor giving them Prescience to their grav cannons as well as a Librarian providing further psyker support. With this advice, I can see that it is a good decision to keep it.

 Envihon wrote:
The main purpose of the Centurions is to provide a big enough threat to my opponent making them decide whether they want to go after Mordrak and his Ghost Knights, the Interceptors and the DK who have shunted in or do they go after the Devastator Centurions that have an Inquisitor giving them Prescience to their grav cannons as well as a Librarian providing further psyker support. With this advice, I can see that it is a good decision to keep it.

While I like the target saturation of things with 2+ saves,. you aren't improving your range. Everything is still 24" Not sure I would take cents at all.

But if you are taking cents, grav cannons seem to be the best choice, just about always.

 Exergy wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
The main purpose of the Centurions is to provide a big enough threat to my opponent making them decide whether they want to go after Mordrak and his Ghost Knights, the Interceptors and the DK who have shunted in or do they go after the Devastator Centurions that have an Inquisitor giving them Prescience to their grav cannons as well as a Librarian providing further psyker support. With this advice, I can see that it is a good decision to keep it.

While I like the target saturation of things with 2+ saves,. you aren't improving your range. Everything is still 24" Not sure I would take cents at all.

But if you are taking cents, grav cannons seem to be the best choice, just about always.

Easy Fix Is a missile launcher on one of them to extend the wound range to 48", that way you can have the cannons only touch one guy and kill to the back guy

Graviton weapons are useless against buildings, and depending how you play it the cannon can be great against vehicles or it can be absolute death to them. The Cents will always be firing full salvo, so that's 15 grav cannon shots, that reroll to wound and vehicle effect. Sure getting prescience in there is great, but it's not a must have. We're not even counting the bolter rounds yet, which if you're using IF can be good too. Even better if you're using the IF supplement and you're in rapid fire range, because then you're rerolling all your missed bolter shots.

I myself was just looking at my codex and thinking Dev Cents would be a great addition to my already shooty IH list. IWND on the Cent Sarge sounds nice...

Either way you cut it though, the Grav Cannon and Amp are the best choice for the Cents as they can deploy more comfortably than say a Devastator Squad, so getting into 24" shouldn't be any issue. They are more than capable of taking a charge, even though to have them locked in combat is a waste. And pretty much no matter how you cut it, the Grav/Hurricane loadout allows you to take on anything. Facing a 6+ armour save? Bolter it. Facing Termies? You know what to do!

I see where you are taking this and IF Cents just seem to be even more effective than the Cents of other armies.

I have gone against Iron Hands Cents before and they are hard to kill. It is what made me want them in the first place. And that is the thing, people say to put them in a Land Raider but I have seen Cents just walk all over the board raining destruction. +2 Armor and 2 wounds is nothing to laugh at.

darkcloak wrote:
Even better if you're using the IF supplement and you're in rapid fire range, because then you're rerolling all your missed bolter shots.

This makes no difference. The centurions can only take a hurricane bolter which is already TL'd.

darkcloak wrote:
They are more than capable of taking a charge, even though to have them locked in combat is a waste.

Actually they cannot take a charge well. The problem is that they are far too expensive to use as a tarpit for a cheaper unit (actually the funny part is them make a great unit to hide from shooting in combat with) and if they get charged by something big an scary they will fold like wet tissue (MCs can even manipulate how many they kill and time their release from combat). Now the centurion star you are correct but that is due to the USRs and independent characters.

IF LC cents are great. Really as long as you can get tank hunters on them the LC cents are in many ways better than devastators for their pts (largely due to the resistance to helldrakes and the like).

If you cannot get tank hunters then the grav cannon cents will do better against most targets.

I thought Grav-weapons could not affect buildings?

this has been my puzzle as well. I will be running a IF successors, not for competition. i plan on dropping the Cents were i like. Was wondering what weapon load out would function best. Good information.

You're taking grav weapons not to deal with buildings but to deal with wave serpents and mc.

You know that is something I have been forgetting, the threat of Riptides and all the things Eldar like to play. Grav Cannons level that playing field quite a bit.

Just to share an experience, I had a fun time killing 6 dev centurions with grav cannons with Be'Lakor, as he has no armor save so he could not be wounded. Additionally, he could use smash attacks to kill 3 centurions per turn by doubling them out. How many points are 6 centurions with grav cannons? Belly ache made his points back for sure that game.

So I guess against daemon lists you could run into issues.

For fists I prefer las/missle for that tank hunter.

However for everyone else I like grav amp centurions

 changerofways wrote:
Just to share an experience, I had a fun time killing 6 dev centurions with grav cannons with Be'Lakor, as he has no armor save so he could not be wounded. Additionally, he could use smash attacks to kill 3 centurions per turn by doubling them out. How many points are 6 centurions with grav cannons? Belly ache made his points back for sure that game.

So I guess against daemon lists you could run into issues.

The Centurions won't be my only things seeing as they have a whole force of GK to back them up which makes me not fear Daemons too much or CC. Also, according to the rules, grav weapons wound based on armor save to a minimum of 6+ so they could wound on a 6 so I am guessing that person couldn't roll a 6 even with re-rolls?



I see a lot of people are suggesting the IF Centurions take LC instead of the Grav Cannons which I am now leaning to because of the Tank Hunter rule. That was my original thinking of taking the Heavy Bolter and Missile Launcher. Heavy Bolter for infantry as well as the frag missiles and then the Krak missiles for vehicles. I think the one problem of taking LC/Missile launcher combo is the fact that I don't have the points to attach the launchers and I am a little worried with that for taking out infantry although I do have enough anti-infantry in the GK so maybe I do need a little more heavy hitting for popping vehicles and buildings. Keep the Hurricane Bolters for infantry. With everything TL though, that means I wouldn't need Prescience and my Inquisitor can be used somewhere else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My other concern with taking LC is just the amount of shots it is now reduced to going from 15 shots with grav to 3 with LC.

The main advantage is the range, so you are getting 1-2 more shooting phases with the unit during the game, Combine that with being harder to avoid and built in twin-linking on the lascannons means you dont have to baby sit them with a power. I like to throw them in a bastion since you can fire two people from each a unit of three can all fire out with both weapons. Attach an IC and throw a gun emplacement on the top. IC fires the gun gaining tank hunter and the cents fire as well. Since the gun on the top counts as an emplaced weapon the guys ont he inside can fire it.

Good combo.

 changerofways wrote:
Just to share an experience, I had a fun time killing 6 dev centurions with grav cannons with Be'Lakor, as he has no armor save so he could not be wounded. Additionally, he could use smash attacks to kill 3 centurions per turn by doubling them out. How many points are 6 centurions with grav cannons? Belly ache made his points back for sure that game.

So I guess against daemon lists you could run into issues.

He can be wounded by Grav Cannons.

Fragile wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
Just to share an experience, I had a fun time killing 6 dev centurions with grav cannons with Be'Lakor, as he has no armor save so he could not be wounded. Additionally, he could use smash attacks to kill 3 centurions per turn by doubling them out. How many points are 6 centurions with grav cannons? Belly ache made his points back for sure that game.

So I guess against daemon lists you could run into issues.

He can be wounded by Grav Cannons.

Yes, i see that now, he could've been wounded on a 6, my opponent and I both missed this rule. Still, wounding on 6's and hitting on 3's with a 2+ cover save is a good situation to be in. Grav weapons are not effective against daemons. But this isn't a problem for the OP specifically, as he is taking grav weapons as allies to his GK. But for others, its for sure something to keep in mind.

 Leth wrote:
The main advantage is the range, so you are getting 1-2 more shooting phases with the unit during the game, Combine that with being harder to avoid and built in twin-linking on the lascannons means you dont have to baby sit them with a power. I like to throw them in a bastion since you can fire two people from each a unit of three can all fire out with both weapons. Attach an IC and throw a gun emplacement on the top. IC fires the gun gaining tank hunter and the cents fire as well. Since the gun on the top counts as an emplaced weapon the guys ont he inside can fire it.

Good combo.

If I ever get around to making a full IF army, I probably would eventually do this but this is just a 500 point detachment to my GK army so I don't have points to throw around for a Bastion but your case of taking the LC in the first place is compelling. What are 15 shots if they can't shoot anything while the LC can virtually shoot from turn one. In that case, I almost want to try and fit in the missile launchers as well. With two weapons firing at the same range, there is more damage potential.

 ansacs wrote:
and attaching an IC to them gives the character tank hunters.
.

A few people have said this now, why must an IF squad of Centurions take an IC to 'gain' Tank Hunters? I'm confused...

Edit

Nevermind, reading it backwards, pretend I'm not here....

After my brainfart and back OT, I've been a strong advocate of Grav on Centurions. My recent experiences of trying out the LC/ML combi has changed my thinking somewhat. They put pressure on your opponent from the off due to the vastly improved range and do not need to either pay for a LR or spend 2 turns getting into a decent mid-table postition. I still prefer Grav as Centurions are by far the best platform for it unless you run WS Bikers. If you play IF however LC/ML is a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

That reminds me of another question, if I do decide to take the Grav-cannons off because the more I think about it, the only anti-armor I have in my army currently is a psyfileman dreadnought so taking the LC/Missiles Dev Cents is starting to really appeal to me, do I still place the Inquisitor with them since his only job was to cast prescience and back up the Cents with a psycannon and help in melee just in case. I plan on still putting a Level 2 psyker with the Cents to provide protection but I am wondering if the Inquisitor still should go with them.

I think coteaz would be a good addition to that squad, he is level 2 has the deepstrike protection ability, still has a 2+ armor and is pretty decent in combat.

Gives you two chances at good divination powers and if you want you can bring in henchmen as cheap additional troops. 36 points for 3 scoring units. I like it.

Huh, here I thought I wouldn't ever get to use my Coteaz model again. Since he would be attached to that unit, being able to shoot at full ballistics skill from 3 Dev Cents and a Librarian would hurt a lot. Possibly get that ignores cover psyker power. I like it. Unfortunately still can't fit in the henchman but that is alright, adding Coteaz saves me some points from the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor and makes fitting in those missiles a tad easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also since the Librarian going with the Cents won't have Divination, what is the best Discipline to take help support them? Pyromancy has an awesome 4+ Invul save that would be really useful to stopping plasma and las fire but not melta and soul blaze. Telekinesis offers a 5+ Invul shield and Telepathy offers Invisibility. And then Biomancy offers Endurance which adds Feel No Pain. To me Biomancy seems the least worth it while Telepathy and Pyromancy seem the best depending who you are fighting.

Even with ability to take tankhunter lazcannons, i'm still in for gravguns. You know, you still have meltas, rending cannons, krak nades, meltas/meltabombz...all in all plenty of stuff to deal with regular tanks even with best armor. You know, i'd not like to repeat this too often...but "Wave serpents and MC". Lazcannons are sure fine vs most things but count how many you need to crack a serpent - around 15-20 shots, probably around 10-15 with tl and tankhunters if the serpent's in the open with 4+ cover. And it's often behind a ruin with 3+ cover. Now look at MC. It's not enough to just put a few wounds on a MC. You need to kill it before it gets in your face and starts smashing your fancy 80+ pt models like bugs. Gravguns do that most of the time.

I'm not telling that gravguns are that godly awesome by default. They'll struggle vs no-armor targets that rely on good invul or cover saves. Heck, i've faced white scars gravspam and gravcents deathstar with my orkses a few times in pick-up games. That was a tough matchup for marines but tfc were so good in that case that this games were close even though >50% of the opponent's armies were not quite as effective pointwise. And they eventually got swarmed. That'd not happen if they had more tac lists ofc.

All in all, gravguns are unique gear that helps you out in the most difficult situations. And when backed up with more common weaponry - they the best you can get. I think it's plain better to have gravguns than lazcannons even with tankhunter.

 koooaei wrote:
You know, i'd not like to repeat this too often...but "Wave serpents and MC". Lazcannons are sure fine vs most things but count how many you need to crack a serpent - around 15-20 shots, probably around 10-15 with tl and tankhunters if the serpent's in the open with 4+ cover. And it's often behind a ruin with 3+ cover. Now look at MC. It's not enough to just put a few wounds on a MC. You need to kill it before it gets in your face and starts smashing your fancy 80+ pt models like bugs. Gravguns do that most of the time.

Actually you don't need that much. With a serpent out in the open 3 LC/ML cents have about an even chance to explode or HP strip the serpent. With holo fields (which are not cost effective as people indicate as CWE, Tau, and AM can all ignore cover on long range anti tank) the cents will average 2 HP and almost average an explodes result (don't give me that serpent shield jazz as we both know it was shot already). If the serpent is in ruins you average 1 HP stripped and a ~30% chance to explode. Not bad considering you are likely to get 3-4 turns to use this unit whereas the grav cents either are in a death star or die the next turn. An expensive unit to trade for a waveserpent. There is also the fact that the IF LC/ML cents can hunker down in a firestorm redoubt or within a void shield generator and take shots all game whereas grav cents need a delivery method (ie a stormraven or gate of infinity).

I totally agree that grav cents are superior against MCs and have a definite place in many lists it is just not clear cut and should depend on your meta and what your list needs help with.

Another nice benefit is that IF cents give tank hunters to attached independent characters. When you have a quad gun it becomes vastly better when you can man it with a IC with split fire and tank hunter. Or you can intercept with tank hunters.

All these are compelling arguments to the point, I am considering trying my first hand at magnetizing the LC and Grav-cannons to switch depending on what army I am going against.

One thing this does is just evaluate Cents are by themselves in a pure SM army, my Cents are allies in a GK army where I don't fear MCs as some armies much. I have Deep Striking and Shunting infantry armed with force weapons. My main fear is armor as I have been destroyed by a mech army before and the only thing I have right now is dreadnoughts with TL psybolted Autocannons. For this list, I am only bringing one and the TL/ML Cents would make that much of a difference.

That is a very wise move. On such expensive models magnets are your friend.

One thing I thought would be fun with grav cents is throw them in a crusader with khan so they can scout 12 and then be in range of anything turn one.

Hilarity ensues.

Also A bunker with escape hatch can add 18"' to their range. I visualized it out and tried it for a game. It adds a lot of range for a slow unit.