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I am ok with Librarians falling to Chaos. It happens all the time.
What I don´t like is the feeling that it could happen without the psyker falling to Chaos. Like in 'they are so pure and good guys and heroic that they can summon a Bloodthirster or a Lord of Change and not be corrupted by that'. It wouldn´t be the first time we get something similar. The GK Codex is almost universally considered the worst piece of wak ever to be puked over the setting. I fear we will see it become the standard in 7th.
Game wise, I am assuming the Daemon is not controlled by the player, charging against the nearest target, or perhaps against a random target. I don´t expect a Librarian to summon a Bloodthirster and then use it in a coordinated attack with some Black Templars, priests or Sisters as allies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/11 17:19:58
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
You can be corrupted by chaos and not immediately turn into a spikey marine. Plenty of BL stories involve chapters of marines using heretical methods of combat for noble ends before the Inquisition finds out and death-stars their fortress-monastery. The little blurb even mentions that this Librarian is living on borrowed time now.
Let me start by saying that anything can be justified. However, not everything can make sense. You can run an all female space marine list. Game wise it won't have any effect but narrative wise it is just wrong. I get that chaos is tempting but the idea of the leading librarian directly turning into a blood letter to 'win' goes so far against the grain that its obsurd. If it was a peril then that would have been fun. Heck, it makes it risky to draw the warp but its not. Its saying screw everything and fluff be damned. I'm sure that everyone has an army they enjoy. Some play for winning, others for collecting and narrative. I can safely say that most people who play DA for winning have a hard road ahead. That leaves the fluff and the models as one of the main reasons for collecting them. If you mess with the fluff and narrative of the game where that makes sense then I should be able to be annoyed and call it out as nonsense. I know WD did that as a test but they are testing actual rules. This is a new phycher branch. It can and will happen. Its almost two weeks till this comes out. The rules are done. The print is final, so yea this is annoying.
And for anyone who takes enjoyment in narrative I invite you to come up with some ubsurd ideas that have come to fruition already that you disagree with.
Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman.
You don't lead the libby from "pure" to "ok, summoned a bloodthirster" in one step though.
The moment you ROLLED on demology, then you are apperantly already tainted, no matter what powers you get, no matter what you might or might not summon later.
As for "dark angels hate chaos" claims....yea, that's what THEY say, the organization so deep in secrets it competes with GK and AL on being the most secretive guys who can never, ever be trusted even by their own allies.
Then you got a "sub faction" of the fallen, who CLAIM to be dark angels themselves, meaning one of the two factions probably IS chaos, and you can't really tell who is who.
Honestly, DA are probably one of the more likely chapters to be getting demology.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Eh, it can make sense. If they had a prize worth enough, it's possible anyone would sell their soul, particularly if they had been falling down the path for awhile.
Badablack wrote: A Librarian, joining battle with the Tyranids, draws on his psychic powers. As with every other time, as he touches the Warp the powers of Chaos whisper to him that they could defeat all his enemies if he only lets them. He ignores their seductive promises and just casts Prescience or something.
The battle has started going badly, but the Librarian forges ahead, desperately spewing fireballs left and right into the unending swarm. With each use, the whispering voices of Chaos grow louder and louder, describing in detail how the battle is lost and all his brothers will die. But they could help save them all if he only says the words.
The Librarian and his few remaining battle brothers are surrounded by the swarm. They have lost, and will soon die, and with them the all-important mission they were entrusted. He calls upon his powers again, heedless of the cost of pushing himself too far, and Chaos speaks to him one last time in a clear voice. It would be the simplest thing, and he would live. The mission would succeed.
His men are dying in front of him. With their position lost the swarm will destroy what they came to protect. The honor of the Dark Angels will be smeared with failure, and Space Marines do not fail. With no other choice, the Librarian calls out for aid from the last source possible, and his prayers are answered by a bloodthirsty howl of triumph that drowns out the sounds of even the greatest tyranid bio-organisms.
This, this, this. It's completely in line with the fluff, it's the sort of temptations that's always been supposed to be around, only now you can fall to it.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Badablack wrote: A Librarian, joining battle with the Tyranids, draws on his psychic powers. As with every other time, as he touches the Warp the powers of Chaos whisper to him that they could defeat all his enemies if he only lets them. He ignores their seductive promises and just casts Prescience or something.
The battle has started going badly, but the Librarian forges ahead, desperately spewing fireballs left and right into the unending swarm. With each use, the whispering voices of Chaos grow louder and louder, describing in detail how the battle is lost and all his brothers will die. But they could help save them all if he only says the words.
The Librarian and his few remaining battle brothers are surrounded by the swarm. They have lost, and will soon die, and with them the all-important mission they were entrusted. He calls upon his powers again, heedless of the cost of pushing himself too far, and Chaos speaks to him one last time in a clear voice. It would be the simplest thing, and he would live. The mission would succeed.
His men are dying in front of him. With their position lost the swarm will destroy what they came to protect. The honor of the Dark Angels will be smeared with failure, and Space Marines do not fail. With no other choice, the Librarian calls out for aid from the last source possible, and his prayers are answered by a bloodthirsty howl of triumph that drowns out the sounds of even the greatest tyranid bio-organisms.
This, this, this. It's completely in line with the fluff, it's the sort of temptations that's always been supposed to be around, only now you can fall to it.
True, but what I want to know is how will they represent this "fall" in gaming terms. Surely while you're playing the game the narrative could be important but at the end of the day there's a winner and a loser - regardless of how this was achieved. Lets say the Librarian summons a Daemon, who ends up decimating the Tyranids....sure the guy "fell to chaos" but it matters little as the DA player got the win he wanted. That's what will matter in a competitive / semi-competitive environment.
I want to know how they will represent this when i.e DA are playing against Chaos. If the Psyker summons a GD but fails his test, what will happen? He's already committed heresy by ATTEMPTING this act - there should be repercussions for him even attempting this as his loyalty to the Emperor is now lost. Perhaps a dice roll after a failed summoning, on a 6 the guy goes full Traitor and turns on his own army. All I know is that there should be different mechanics in place if the Imperial guy is trying to use this against Chaos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/11 20:59:43
I don't know about Ezkiel doing that but i can see a fluff reason for Mephiston to "summon" a greater daemon. As a Blood Angel player you could say that with his final surge of power Mephiston ascends to the highest form unlocked by his dormant geneseed. A final gift from Sanguinius if you will. I wouldn't use a Bloodthirster model or call it a Bloodthirster, but I see that as a cool narrative way to have that sort of thing happen. Not sure what you'd say for other chapters though.
Did you choose to roll on a demonology psychic chart for your psyker's powers?
Well guess what, you just chose to make your Librarian corrupted. Can't blame anyone but yourself if you think the demonology powers are better than that lame Telekinesis chart or whatever.
And if demonology is better than the rest, and this results in everyone taking those powers at all the super-competitive ultra serious tournaments? Fits totally with the fluff, the Warp is winning, daemons are taking over, it's the end of the galaxy. And the blame lies on the players.
Yeah this seems stupid as hell, everything else with 7th you can rationalise as gw selling more stuff but are imperium players really gonna go out and buy bloodthirsters? That seems the opposite of forging a narrative, ezekiel selling his soul to gw so he can powergame.
ashcroft wrote: Loyal Space Marines are bros with Greater Daemons. That book that Fateweaver carries around is actually a copy of the Codex Astartes.
Thanks I needed that. Seriously though... What is next? Let's come up with a grey knight chapter that worships slanesh. Or Pacifistic orks diplomats. Maybe we can retcon Abbadon as heading towards the hive fleet to save the imperium.
Funny thing is, I can see the GK being the next chapter to fall to Chaos. You have a organization of fanatics that no one dares questions the actions of, that claim to be above all suspicion, yet BIND DAEMONS INTO WEAPONS. Which they turn around and use. Instead of sticking them into deep, dark, well guarded and protected vaults. And lets not forget the "heroic" chapter master that wanders around the plane of chaos "destroying" all the daemons he encounters. Not like he could be working with them, sacrificing a few here and there and "countering" some daemonic plots, in order to corrupt an entire chapter.
pax_imperialis wrote: Yeah this seems stupid as hell, everything else with 7th you can rationalise as gw selling more stuff but are imperium players really gonna go out and buy bloodthirsters? That seems the opposite of forging a narrative, ezekiel selling his soul to gw so he can powergame.
*Owns Grey Knights & Space Wolf armies*
*Owns a Khorne Demon legion.*
If someone is interested, this is the full entry from WDW15. The third paragraph is usually missing in most blogs, but I think it is quite relevant.
Spoiler:
The advent of Daemonology has caused many moral quandaries in the White Dwarf office, not least for our Adam Troke. A staunch Dark Angels collector, Adam found himself allowing none other than Grand Master Ezekiel himself to use Malefic Daemonology powers in one of our test games – all in the interests of research and playtesting, of course.
At the tail end of a tense battle against my Tyranids, Adam found Ezekiel reduced to a single Wound, with victory slipping out of reach. Desperate to crush the last bioforms of the ravening Hive Fleet Eumenides, Ezekiel damned his own soul and sacrificed himself to summon a Bloodthirster of Khorne – a dreadful gambit but one that won the day for the Dark Angels, as the Bloodthirster ultimately broke the back of my Hive Tyrant over one gore-slicked knee.
Alas, such heresy cannot go unpunished, and Adam has not been allowed to forget that Ezekiel himself invited filthy Warp-spawn to consume his body and essence.
Whenever he attempts to remind any of the White Dwarf team of the Dark Angels’ allegedly incorruptible nature, he is greeted by good-natured jeers concerning his own corruption. He has since reported to servitor reconditioning for an ethical upgrade.
I don´t really see why this is a victory for the Dark Angels, I would call it an utter defeat: forces destroyed is better than forces corrupted. But the corruption-thing and the daemons feeding on his soul bit make it fluffy for me.
I also get the impression this may be caused by some new Greater Daemons´ models being released soon. Which is good.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
But... psykers have been able to summon daemons in the fluff since... well, always, right? That's WHY they're psykers, they have a possibility of being corrupted/possessed/used as an eldritch gateway.
Fluff objection: Has always been in the fluff, if you want a loyalist chapter don't roll on Daemonology.
Balance objection: We don't know enough about it, GW may miraculously make the new shiny perfectly balanced.
Competitive objection: Well, now you're being silly, we all know GW has forgotten there is such a thing!
Tau, Dark Eldar and Inquisition 40K player, occasional Lizardman Fantasy player, proud Lord of the Rings player and Rebel X-Wing player
> 4000 pts 1500 pts 1500 pts 1500pts
Ascalam wrote:Only the Eldar could party hard enough to rip a hole in the material universe, and then stage an after-party in the webway like nothing happened
Psykers =/= Sorcerers. Psykers channel the warp and can be possessed because they appear like stars in the warp. Sorcerers bring forth daemons.
Psykers can be good, neutral, or evil whereas Sorcerers tend to be evil (spells usually require some sort of blood sacrifice/magic).
Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
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