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Poly-K is a clean and simple rule set for use with model sci-fi soldiers. Poly-K uses no charts and game play involving basic infantry is determined only by comparing dice rolls.

Poly-K is intended to be an alternative to Games Workshop's (GW) Sci-Fi/Gothic table-top game Warhammer 40,000 (40K) but these rules can be used with any 28 millimeter model sci-fi soldiers.

The "Poly" in the title refers to polyhedrons, a terms used to describe any three-dimensional object composed of a finite number of polygonal surfaces (faces). In this case the polyhedrons are the different dice types used in the game: D6, D8, D10, and D12.

Model Stats

In Ploy-K the D types assigned to models based on their race or army. For example, a basic human model is D type 6 (D6). A biologically enhanced super human is D type 8 (D8). A standard space Orc is D6. A standard space Elf would is also D6. Heroes and Commanders for all races/armies range in D type from D8 to D12.

Expressed in terms of GW's 40K universe, An Imperial Guard model is a D6. A Space Marine is a D8. An Ork Boy is a D6. An Ork Nob is a D8. An Eldar Guardian is a D6. An Eldar Aspect is a D8.


Basic Weapons

The advance rules add various weapons type but for the basic rules a model's weapon stat is simply its D-type. A D6 model has a basic weapon's stat of D6. A D8 model has a basic weapon's stat of D8. A D10 model has a basic weapon's stat of D10.

Range Combat

Range combat is based on a mix of the model's D-type, range and cover.

"To Hit" Roll

First select a shooting unit and designate a target unit. The target unit must have models in LOS and range of some of the models in the shooting unit. Roll the D type for each model in the shooting unit with LOS and range of models in the shooting unit (the Target Models). Then arrange the dice next to the Target Models as follows: Place the highest dice next to the Target Model closest to the Command Model of the shooting unit. Then working backwards, placing the next highest dice next to the Target Model which is next closest to the Command Model of the shooting unit. Continue to place the lower dice next to the Target Model further away from the Command Model of the shooting unit. Place the lowest dice next to the Target Model furthest away from the Command Model of the shooting unit. If there are dice left over start placing them next to the closest Target Model and work backwards as stated above.

Roll to Save

All the Target Models with dice next to them are "Hit" and must roll a "Save". To Save, the Target Models must roll their D type and score a result equal to or higher than the total score of dice next to them. The Save roll is modified by Cover and Range.

Cover

Cover is gained from any intervening terrain, terrain in-between the shooting unit and the target unit. The modifier to the save roll can be from 1-4 depending on the extent and type of the cover. Players should agree on the type of terrain before the game starts by placing a D4 next the all terrain on the board indicating the terrain type. As a general rule things like tall grass or shrubs are a "1", trees are a "2", rocks and ruble are a "3", and fortifications are a "4".

Weapon Range

The advance rules add various modifications based on weapons type but for the basic rules a weapon's range is simply three times the model's D-type. A D6 model has a range of eighteen (18) inches (3x6). A D8 model has a range of twenty-four (24) inches (3x8). A D10 model has a range of thirty (30) inches (3x10).

Range is divided into three parts: short, medium, and long. A D6 model has a range of 1-6 inches (short); >6-12 (medium), >12-18 (long). A D8 model has a range of 1-8 inches (short); >8-16 (medium), >16-24 (long). A D10 model has a range of 1-10 inches (short); >10-20 (medium), >20-30 (long).

Target models in Close Range (short) suffer a -2 modifier to their Save roll. Target models at Long Range (long) gain a +2 modifier to their Save roll.

SHOOTING EXAMPLE 1 (using GW models): A unit of four Space Marines and a Veteran Sergeant are shooting at a unit of Orks. Eight Ork boys and one Ork Nob are in LOS and range of the Marines. The Marines roll five dice, four D8 and one D10. The dice score: 8, 6, 3, 5, 2. The Marine Player places the "8" next to the Ork closest to the Veteran Sergeant, the "6" next the Ork second closest to the Veteran Sergeant, and so on in descending order with the next highest dice next to the Ork next closest to the Veteran Sergeant: "5", "3", and "2".

The Ork Player roll his Saves. Saves are rolled individually.

The Ork with the "8" next to it is a Boy, a D6 model. It is in the open and at middle range so it gets no modifiers. It cannot roll higher than a "6" so it fails its Save automatically and is removed from play.

The Ork with the "6" next to it is also a Boy, a D6 model. It is also in the open and at middle range so it gets no modifiers. But it can roll a "6" so the Ork Player rolls a D6. Unfortunately he rolls a "5". The second Ork fails its Save and is removed from play.

The Ork with the "5" next to it is the Nob, a D8 model. It is at middle range but is partially shielded by a large rock, so it gets a +3 modifier to its Save roll. The Ork Player rolls a D8. He rolls a "3" and adds 2 = "5"! The Nob is Saved and remains in play.

The Ork with the "3" next to it is a Boy, a D6 model. It is at middle range but is partially shielded by some foliage, so it gets a +1 modifier to its Save roll. The Ork Player rolls a D6. He rolls a "5" and adds 1 = "6"! The Boy is Saved and remains in play.

The Ork with the "2" next to it is a Boy, a D6 model. It is in the open but is 19 inches from the Veteran Sergeant, so at long range. (If the attach dice are roll together range is determined by the majority D type of the shooting unit. In this case long range is based on D8, so >18-24) So it gets a +2 modifier to its Save roll. The Ork Player does not need to roll. The Boy "Saves" automatically and remains in play. In effect the shooting at this Ork was a "Miss".

Note: There is no separate "To Wound" roll. The "To Wound" roll has been combined with the "Save" roll.



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Close Combat

The advance rules add various modifications to close combat based on race/army and weapons type but for the basic rules a model's Close Combat skill is its D-type.

Only models in base-to-base contact with an enemy model are considered to be in Close Combat (CC).

During CC Players roll the D type for each of his models in base-to-base contact with an enemy model. Both players line up the resulting dice results highest to lowest in pairs and compared. The Player with the lowest score in the pair must make a Save. But, however, Players must make a CC Save(s) equal to all dice result of a "1".

The reason for this last bit is that otherwise the Player with more dice is likely to sweep the other Player, meaning he caused the other Player to take a Save on all models in CC while he takes none. That should not be. When you are in a brawl for your life gak happens, especially when everyone is armed to the teeth, and if you role a "1", well, gak just happened to you!

The advance rules add various modifications to CC Saves based on skill levels and weapons type but for the basic rules Saves in CC are race/army based. Space Marines Save on 3+. Humans Save on 6+. Space Orcs Save on a 4+. Space Elves on 5+. Space Elves Heroes Save on 3+.

CC EXAMPLE 1 (using GW models): A group of four Space Marines and a Veteran Sergeant are in base-to-base contact with six Ork boys and one Ork Nob. The Marine Players roll four D8s and a D10, and scores 5, 7, 2, 2, and 1. The Ork Player rolls six D6s and a D8, and scores 6, 2, 4, 4, 2, 4 and 1. The dice are arraigned in pairs hight to lowest: 7to6, 5to6, 2to4, 2to4, 1to2. The Ork Player has two extra dice results, a 2 and a 1. These results "wrap around" and are added to the existing pairs starting with the highest. So the groupings become 7to6+2, 5to6+1, 2to4, 2to4, 1to2. The Marine Player has lost all five pairings and must make five CC Saves. He need not make an addition Save for the "1" he rolled because he is already must make four Saves which is more than the one "1" he rolled.

The Marine Player rolls four D8s and a D10, and gets the results 8, 4, 2, 2 and 2. Since his CC Save is 3+ he loses three Marines. The Marine Player chooses which of his models to remove as casualties.

Since the Ork Player rolled a "1" he must also roll a CC Save. He rolls a 3. Since his CC Save is 5+ he loses a model. The Ork Player chooses which of his models to remove as a casualty.

Please finish writing these rules before you show them to us, we can't really assess anything

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Please finish writing these rules before you show them to us, we can't really assess anything

Surly you can assess something.

OK.... Lots of stuff to talk about. but where to start? I guess I should start in the begining. I just hope I don't bore the pants off of everyone before I get to the good stuff.

Getting Started

OK, so you and your mate decide to do a game of Poly-K.  The first thing you generally do is discuss points level.

1. Determine points level.
Generally speaking the points level of a game refers to the size of the game. The more points the larger the game. Points level is determined by agreement of the parties. It usually relates to the time restrains on the players and the size of their gaming board. A large game generally takes longer to play and larger playing surface. Smaller games generally take less time and space.

As tables go, yes, size does matter. Bigger is generally better, but too big can hurt.  The best table is, generally, almost too big, just small enough that you can reach the center without pulling a muscle, or breaking stuff.

2. Place Terrain.
The next thing to do is set-up terrain. It helps if you have a guy in your group that likes to build and paint terrain, but everyone should contribute something. If someone doesn't next time you knock out one of their tanks, torch it; literally, like with lighter fluid and a match. I keep a can by the gaming table for just such an occasion.

Mostly I just start randomly putting stuff down. Maybe a mix of, trees, foliage, rocks, rubble, hills, old buildings, a knocked out tank or two, half burnt and melted. That kinda thing. Painted stuff is nice. Or maybe you're doing a theme table, a city scape, or desert. Placing terrain is an art in itself. I like a lot of terrain but with wide open areas. Yeah, that makes sense.

After terrain is set determine with your mate the cover value of all terrain.  It can be anywhere from a +1 to a +4.  As a general rule things like tall grass or shrubs are a "1", trees are a "2", rocks and ruble are a "3", and fortifications are a "4".

3. Determine Attacker or Defender (First Role-off).
Poly-K uses Mission System developed by Games Workshop for Adeptius Titanicus (198?). Its a great system which GW should have adapted to 40k, and stuck with it, ages ago. The Missions come with a cool little narrative that gives that certain fun fluffy flavor that GW likes to encourage.

What more, the Missions give a Force Level, which is essentially a modification of the chosen points level. So while you agreed to fight a 2000 point game the Mission tells you to spend more, or spend less. It gives a certain RW element but the Missions are balanced by their objectives so that the Player with less forces still has a good chance to win.

3. Chose a Mission.
Before missions can be chosen it must be determined which player will be the Defender and which the Attacker. The missions are set up as Defender or Attacker. There are about six Attack Missions and seven Defense Missions. Which position a player takes is normally determined by a die-off. The player with the highest die decides which he wants to do, attack or defend.

Winning this roll-off might seem trivial but, played right, it becomes the first step in winning the game. Win the Mission roll off and you get to decide if you are going to attack or defend. Study the table. Read the terrain. Can you set-up a defense in strong terrain but with good fields of fire. The defender has some advantages. He determines which table side he will defend. He gets a deep deployment zone. And he can spend a percentage of his forces on battlefield fortifications, which are cheap and effective (+4 to Save roll). He can place battlefield fortifications anywhere in his deployment zone.

If there are no good table sides to defend consider being the Attacher. Look for terrain mid table which could shelter your assault troops before they charge in. Can you sweep a flank and set-pup a cross fire? The Attacher has some advantages too. The Defender sets-up first so the Attacker sets-up with knowledge the Defender's position. The Attacker usually has a higher Force Level on his Missions so he can buy more forces than the Defender, but not always.

After it is determined who will attack and who will defend the players must chose a mission. Normally this is done randomly. The attacker chooses from among the attacker's missions and the defender chooses from the defender's missions. The Player's Mission are kept secrete from his opponent and revealed only after one side achieves his primary objective, (or when a Player is wiped from the table. Or when someone's wife calls).

 4. Pick forces.
Player's pick forces with a view to completing the mission to which he was assigned. The FOC used (or not) should be agreed on before hand.

5. Deploy forces.
The Defender deploys his forces first. He chooses which side of the table he will defend and deploys anywhere in his deployment zone. After the Defender has completely deployed the Attacker deploys his forces. He deploys anywhere along his side of the board within one inch of the table edge.

To-hit system is very clunky and complicated. A simple "roll all of the attack dice. Sort from highest to lowest. Roll that many defense dice. Sort from highest to lowest. Apply defense modifiers etc" work do the same job way quicker IMO

Needs to be less generic. People don't like generic too much. Games like KoW can get away with it because they have strategy built into the movement rules, but 40k with absolutely generic units would be nothing more than walk forward and roll dice.

 Dakkamite wrote:
To-hit system is very clunky and complicated. A simple "roll all of the attack dice. Sort from highest to lowest. Roll that many defense dice. Sort from highest to lowest. Apply defense modifiers etc" work do the same job way quicker IMO

Needs to be less generic. People don't like generic too much. Games like KoW can get away with it because they have strategy built into the movement rules, but 40k with absolutely generic units would be nothing more than walk forward and roll dice.

We had a long argument about this on another thread, he says he's got army-specific rules in the works but they're not posted yet.

This is a terrible system. You've removed everything that makes wargames even remotely interesting and replaced it with a bunch of hopelessly generic units that nobody will ever care about. You can't just reduce a unit's entire stat line and rules to a single "quality" rating because units aren't equally good at everything. For example, a Tau unit should have D10 in shooting but only D4 (or worse) in melee, while a DE unit should have D10 in melee but D4 in defense. And once you add that required depth you no longer have a nice simple system, so I have to ask what you're trying to accomplish by changing the mechanics so thoroughly.

Also, if you're going to get anybody interested in your game you should stick to the rules and resist the temptation to throw in bad jokes like this:

Thirdeye wrote:
If someone doesn't next time you knock out one of their tanks, torch it; literally, like with lighter fluid and a match. I keep a can by the gaming table for just such an occasion.

I'd actually prefer a little more genericism in wargames myself, just not nearly to this degree.

Like, the Ork codex, we really don't need a different entry for burnas and for lootas, or for meganobz and for vanilla nobz. Just three units - Boyz, Meks, Nobz - could suss out 90% of our infantry.

Thats the sort of genericism this game needs.

So I'm guessing Tyranids, Tau, Daemons, and Necrons just don't exist as per this system eh?

 Dakkamite wrote:
I'd actually prefer a little more genericism in wargames myself, just not nearly to this degree.

Like, the Ork codex, we really don't need a different entry for burnas and for lootas, or for meganobz and for vanilla nobz. Just three units - Boyz, Meks, Nobz - could suss out 90% of our infantry.

Thats the sort of genericism this game needs.

A word on generalizing.

I've been hearing from people who don’t like how this system generalizes Troops so much.

Every system generalizes something. GW generalizes a lot of stuff. Worse, they give a stat and then tell you to ignore it and just go with the majority stat. I do that too but only for ranged attacks.

The problem with GW’s rules is that they generalizes the important stuff and spend waaay too much time and effort on the stuff that should be generalized, like Hits and Saves. To determine casualties in ranged combat with GW's rules Players have to wade through a plethora of troop and weapons stats and consult a chart to get a result. Units with mixed stats require special procedures. Then there’s the re-rolls and special rules that typically apply. That’s just ridicules. It should all be generalized down. And by using D-Type as the troops main stat you can do just that while still maintaining a meaningful diversity. In Poly-K there are no charts and you only need one stat (D-Type) to determine casualties in ranged combat, and range, cover, and firepower are not generalized. Every target model gets the full benefit of its cover, and range modifier and the attacher get the full benefit of the firepower directed at the target.

GW generalizes the important stuff, like cover, range, and accumulated fire power. That’s the stuff that we the players control. We control where we place our troops, how we use cover, and the fire power we use on a target. We control all that. So that stuff should be most important in the game. That stuff should not be generalized.

Instead GW has all those stats, all the minutia, the “to Wound” roll, AP values, Armor value, etc. etc. That stuff is only necessary because of an overly complex, Rugegoldbergish, game design. Some say its to engineer uniqueness. But come on, we're talking about hundreds of units and weapon. Not only is it unnecessary, its near impossible to achieve. It also needlessly slows the game down and detracts from the important part of the game: maneuver and morale.

We the Players have no control over the stats. The game designer sets the stats. But since those are the things that count in GW’s game we, the Players, are reduces to whiny children, bitching and moaning about this value or that value, that it isn't right, that it should be changed. I say “F” all that! I say GET THE GAME BACK TO THE BOARD!

It’s about maneuver and morale. Those are the “gaming elements”. Those are the things that we, the Players, control, right? And that’s what wins battles, right? And this is supposed to be about battles, right? Sci-Fi/Gothic/Horror/Fantasy/Superhero Battles, right? (The coolest stuff EVER, RIGHT!) It shouldn't be about weather a weapon is AP3 or AP4. It’s about maneuvering in close, setting up the cross-fires, setting up the assaults, out flanking, setting up fields of fire, firing from cover, coordinating your attacks, and reacting to what the other guy is doing. To do that all you need is a simple, clean combat resolution system.

And it’s about morale. You know, it’s not the guy who kills his enemy who wins, it’s the guy who takes away their will to fight. You need to become that guy, sucking the will to fight out of the other guy’s troops. Fire-power, Assaults, it’s not about taking casualties its about pinning, breaking, and causing units to flee. That’s why checking morale is a big part of Poly-K. Players check morale in reaction to shooting attacks and upon any declared assaults. And they check as the first step Activating the unit. Its your job, as Player, to insure good morale in your troops with clever deployment of commanders, and by targeting the other guy’s commanders. To do that all you need a simple, clean morale system. More on that latter.






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 Dakkamite wrote:
To-hit system is very clunky and complicated. A simple "roll all of the attack dice. Sort from highest to lowest. Roll that many defense dice. Sort from highest to lowest. Apply defense modifiers etc" work do the same job way quicker IMO

Well, problem here is that the system you describe doesn't account for all the complexities of ranges combat. It generalizes things like cover, range, accumulated and focused fire power.

I’ll tell you what’s clunky and complicated, it’s all the stats, the cross-referencing on charts, the rolls, (and re-rolls), for wounds, armor saves, etc. The emphasis and time should be on the stuff we Players can control, like where we put our troops, how we use cover, how we maneuver and set-up our attacks.

Under poly-K each Player rolls only once to resolve a ranged combat attack. There are no charts and you only need one stat (D-Type). The current game requires, generally, three rolls (and how many re-rolls), and you need to consult what, two charts, and you have to keep track of a plethora of stats. And it still generalizes range and cover, and accumulated and focused fire power. Now tell me again what’s clunky and complicated and what’s simple.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Needs to be less generic. People don't like generic too much. Games like KoW can get away with it because they have strategy built into the movement rules, but 40k with absolutely generic units would be nothing more than walk forward and roll dice.

Certainly people need to get over the false need for all those stats and charts. The D-Type thing does a lot of the diversification simply and cleanly. Some special rules for the fluff added in and you’re done. Anything else is just a distraction from what’s important: maneuver and morale. GET THE GAME BACK TO THE BOARD!




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 Peregrine wrote:


This is a terrible system. You've removed everything that makes wargames even remotely interesting and replaced it with a bunch of hopelessly generic units that nobody will ever care about. You can't just reduce a unit's entire stat line and rules to a single "quality" rating because units aren't equally good at everything. For example, a Tau unit should have D10 in shooting but only D4 (or worse) in melee, while a DE unit should have D10 in melee but D4 in defense. And once you add that required depth you no longer have a nice simple system, so I have to ask what you're trying to accomplish by changing the mechanics so thoroughly.

Don’t confuse the basic game with the advanced game. I always maintained that the advance game was going to be more complex. The advance game adds in the fluff. So, OK, lets do a Tau Fire Warrior: Move: 6, D6, CC Save 6. Special Rule: Pulse Rifle is D10. And now a Kabalite Warrior: Move: 7, D6, CC Save 5. Special Rule: CC is D8.

Yes, you’re right, not so nice simple but still pretty simple.

 Peregrine wrote:

Also, if you're going to get anybody interested in your game you should stick to the rules and resist the temptation to throw in bad jokes like this:

Bill, is that you? Are you still pissed about that? That was, what, three years age. You need to get over it man. Besides, with that crap paint job.... well it looks better now, thrust me.



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 Kain wrote:
So I'm guessing Tyranids, Tau, Daemons, and Necrons just don't exist as per this system eh?

Sure they do. Why wouldn't they?

How can one assess an unfinished product?

Also, intending to damage someone elses property, even in the form of a joke is never funny. Stop trying to make it funny.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
How can one assess an unfinished product?

Also, intending to damage someone elses property, even in the form of a joke is never funny. Stop trying to make it funny.

OK, bad joke, moving on...

I was going to talk about Order Phase but it might be better to talk Unit stats. So, lets start with everyone's favorite (or not), Space Marines.

Basic Troops:

Space Marine: Move 6, D8, CC Sv: 3+. Special Weapon: Boltgun, can fire at close range on Charge/Run Orders.

Space Marine Sgt.: Move 6, D10, CC Sv: 3+. Command

Assault Marine: Move 6, D8, CC Sv 3+. Special Weapon: Chainsword, +D6 in CC.

Marine Bike: Move 12, D8, CC Sv: 3+. Special Rules: Hit and Run attack. +D4 Save on raged attacks when on Charge or Run Orders. Special Weapon: Boltgun, can fire at close range on Charge/Run Orders.

Veteran: Move 6, D10, CC Sv: 3+. Special Weapon: Boltgun, can fire at close range on Charge/Run Orders.

Veteran Sgt.: Move 6, D12, CC Sv: 3+. Command. Special Weapon: Power Wapon, +D8 in CC.

Scout: Move 6, D6, CC Sv: 5+

Scout Sgt.: Move 6, D8, CC Sv: 5+ Command

Scout Bike: Move 6, D6, CC Sv: 5+. Special Rules: Hit and Run attack. +D4 Save on raged attacks when on Charge or Run Orders. Special Weapon: Boltgun, can fire at close range on Charge/Run Orders.



What ya think? Also, if someone wants to do the stats for another unit, jump right in and post it.




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Here's some more I did:


Ork Boy: Move 5, D6, CC Sv 4+. Special Rules: "Savage", +1 on all ties in CC. Horde/ "endless number", casualties come back on Player's board edge but only in units of five or more models plus a Nob. Special Weapon: Shootas, can fire at close range on Charge/Run Orders.

Imp. Guardsman: Move 6, D6, CC Sv 6+. Special Weapon: Rifle, long range is doubled (Long Range >12 to 24).

Eldar Guardian: Move 7, D6, CC Sv 5+. Special Weapon: Shrunken Catapult, always fires at full range regardless of Orders. Rifle, long range is doubled (Long Range >12 to 24).

Tau Fire Warrior: Move: 6, D6, CC Save 6. Special Weapon: Pulse Rifle, use D10 stats for ranged attacks.

Kabalite Warrior: Move: 7, D6, CC Save 5. Special Rule: Cunning Killer, use D8 in CC. Special Weapon: Splinter Rifle: can fire at close range on Charge/Run Orders. Rifle, long range is doubled (Long Range >12 to 24).

The thing is man, I agree completely with your responses to my posts re; endless charts and gak, but I don't agree with the enormous level of genericism you've suggested here.

You've gone all the way from one extreme to the other. Theres a huge swath of middle ground left uncovered, which can help 'get the game back on the board' yet also keep troop differences interesting and meaningful

Edit: Also why the heck are Orks slow? Orks aren't slow man.

And to see something like the genericism I support, take a quick look at Warpath. Warpath plus a couple neat rules to represent different 'racial' benefit type things would be perfect.

 Dakkamite wrote:


The thing is man, I agree completely with your responses to my posts re; endless charts and gak, but I don't agree with the enormous level of genericism you've suggested here.

You've gone all the way from one extreme to the other. Theres a huge swath of middle ground left uncovered, which can help 'get the game back on the board' yet also keep troop differences interesting and meaningful.

Well the rules are set up so Players can add as many special rules as they want, taking it further and further into the "middle ground", or even beyond if they want, but still retain much of the quick, clean, simple, non-generalised combat resolution of the core rules. Understand, the game is designed for Players, not Shareholders.

 Dakkamite wrote:


Edit: Also why the heck are Orks slow? Orks aren't slow man.

Gee, you complain about the "enormous level of genericism" but when I add some diversity that's a problem too?! Well, if its a problem for the community then we can change it. None of the 40K "version rules" are set in stone. In fact I posted here for community comments. I want the 40K version to be a community project.

 Dakkamite wrote:


And to see something like the genericism I support, take a quick look at Warpath. Warpath plus a couple neat rules to represent different 'racial' benefit type things would be perfect.

Yeah, I've heard some good things about Warpath but haven't read the rules yet. Looking forward to it. I'm sure at some point there will be an effort to convert the rules to 40K. I say go for it. It can't be worse than what we're getting from GW.

OK, so I have been working on the Morale Rules. Now since Poly-K puts an higher emphasis on Morale than does GW, these rules are more complex than GW's, but they're still simple enough and intuitive.

There are several elements to morale in Poly-K. The first is Morale Value. A unit's Moral Value is determined by its size at the start of the game plus a modifier called Troop Quality.

The second element to morale in Poly-K is Troop Quality. Troop Quality is based on race or army. The higher the modifier the lower the quality of trooper. For example, Marines and Eldar Aspects are Troop Quality 3; Orks are Troop Quality 5. Tyranids and Necrons have special rules. Everyone else is Troop Quality 4.

Example, a unit of five Marines has a Morale Value of 8+ (5+3=8).

Players must note the Morale Value of each of their unit's on their Unit Roster before the game begins. As many races / armies use standard unit sizes this shouldn't take too long. Some armies, like Orks, Necrons, and Tyranids have variable unit sizes so its important that Players note the Morale Value of odd units before the game starts, least they forget.

Morale Test: For each unit required to take a morale test, roll a D6 and the D-Type of highest Model in the unit, then add the number of models currently standing in the unit.

When Taken: Morale checks are taken any time a unit takes incoming fire, looses an assault, or when a Player attempts to Activate the unit.

Example 1: A Marine Player starts the game with a unit of five Marines. The unit has a Morale Value of 8+ (5+3=8). On the first turn the unit takes incoming fire and looses a trooper. The unit must take a Morale Check. The Sgt. has the highest D-Type in the unit (D10). The Marine Player rolls a D6 and a D10 and scores a 4 and a 2. He adds four, the number of troopers still standing, for a total score of 10 (4+2+4=10). The unit passes the test.

Example 2: A Ork Player starts the game with a unit of eight Orks. The unit has a Morale Value of 13+ (8+5=13). On the first turn the unit takes incoming fire and looses three Boys. The unit must take a Morale Check. The Nob has the highest D-Type in the unit (D8). The Ork Player rolls a D6 and a D8, and scores a 4 and a 5. He adds five, the number of troopers still standing in the unit, for a total score of 14 (4+5+5=14). The unit passes the test.

Your quality mechanic (a different die for each type of troop to reflect its training) is found in many of Ambush Alley's publications. Force on Force and Tomorrow's War.

Don't get me wrong it makes a lot of sense and more accurately reflects the training levels of the different sorts of soldiers, from conscripts and rabble to elite and better.




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Your quality mechanic (a different die for each type of troop to reflect its training) is found in many of Ambush Alley's publications. Force on Force and Tomorrow's War.

Don't get me wrong it makes a lot of sense and more accurately reflects the training levels of the different sorts of soldiers, from conscripts and rabble to elite and better.

Yeah, someone over at Warseer mentioned that Force on Force and Tomorrow's War uses the same D-Type mechanic. Not familiar with those games myself, but yeah, the mechanic gives a nice clean, simple way to differentiate troop types. Gets rid of the need for a plethora of stats and charts. Seems to be a good fit for 40K. You could probably adapted it to Warhammer Fantasy as well. Maybe that will be my next project.

Point Cost

So, working on a point costs formula. One of the best things about having a simple system is that you can calculate point costs much easier. I only have four stats per model, Movement, D-Type, CC Sv, and Morale. So it was easy to assign a point cost to each and come up with a cost formula. The formula I came up with this: Point Cost = Move Value + D-Type Value + CC Sv Value + Morale Value + Special Rules.

To determine the different values I used the following calculations:

Move Value: 5=0, 6=1, 7=2, 8=3
D-Type Value: D6=1, D8=3, D-10=6, D-12=9
CC Sv Value = (6 - CC Sv)
Morale Value = (5 - Morale)
Special Rule = 1 (Note, any special rule that changes a D-Type for any purpose counts as 2).

So, using the above formula I came up with the following point costs:

Space Marine: Move 6, D8, CC Sv: 3+, Morale 3. COST: 10.
Special Weapon: Boltgun, can fire at close range on Charge/Run Orders.
Space Marine Cost = 1+3+3+2+1=10

Ork Boy: Move 5, D6, CC Sv 4+, Morale 5. COST: 6.
Special Rules: "Savage", +1 on all ties in CC. Horde/ "endless number", casualties come back on Player's board edge but only in units of five or more models plus a Nob. Special Weapon: Shootas, can fire at close range on Charge/Run Orders.
Ork Boy Cost = 0+1+2+0+3=6

Imp. Guardsman: Move 6, D6, CC Sv 6+, Morale 4. COST: 4
Special Weapon: Rifle, middle range is doubled (middle Range >6 to 18).
Imp. Guardsman Cost = 1+1+0+1+1=4.

Eldar Guardian: Move 7, D6, CC Sv 5+, Morale 4. COST: 7.
Special Weapon: Shrunken Catapult, always fires at full range regardless of Orders. Rifle, middle range is doubled (middle Range >6 to 18).
Eldar Guardian Cost = 2+1+1+1+2=7,

Tau Fire Warrior: Move: 6, D6, CC Save 6, Morale 4. COST: 5.
Special Weapon: Pulse Rifle, use D10 stats for ranged attacks.
Tau Fire Warrior Cost = 1+1+0+1+2=5.

Kabalite Warrior: Move: 7, D6, CC Save 5, Morale 4. COST: 8.
Special Rule: Cunning Killer, use D8 in CC.
Special Weapon: Splinter Rifle: can fire at close range on Charge/Run Orders. Rifle, middle range is doubled (middle Range >6 to 18).
Tau Fire Warrior Cost = 2+1+1+1+3=8.

Vehicles

Ok, so, been working on Vehicles. Here's what I got so far.

At the start of the game Vehicles are given a number of dice referred to as the Vehicles' System Dice. They represent the Armor Value, Hull Points, Fire Power, and Movement Rate of the vehicle. System Dice can be lost through combat. This represents the vehicle taking damage. As the vehicle looses System Dice its movement, defense, and attack effectiveness are reduced. Once a vehicle has lost all of its System Dice it is destroyed.

PLAYING AID: It is highly recommended that Players keep their vehicle's System Dice in a small Dixie-cup like container next to or behind the vehicle as a reminder of what System Dice the vehicle has available at any time during the game.

Here are some examples of vehicle System Dice using Marine Vehicles:

Light Vehicles
Land Speeder/ Hvy Bolter - D8, D6 D4. (Infantry Attack 3). Special Rule: "Fast/Skimmer", basic movement increased to 12. Special Rule: Hit and Run attack. Special Rule: "pop-up" attack. Special Save: "Jink" - Extra D4 to Save Roll when on Run/Charge orders.

Light Tanks
Rhino/Bolters - D8, D6 (Infantry Attack 3). Special Rule: "APC": Transport Capacity 5 Marines or 3 Terminators.

Medium Tank
Razorback/Hvy Bolters - 2D8, D6. (Infantry Attack 3).
Predator/Autocannon & Hvy Bolters - D12, D8, D6. (Infantry Attack 3).

Heavy Tanks
Land Raider - 4D10. (Infantry Attack 4).
Special Rule: "APC": Transport Capacity 10 Marines or 5 Terminators.

Walker
Dreadnought - 2D12, D4 (Infantry Attack 4).

Vehicle Movement
It cost one System Dice for a vehicle to move on Advance Orders (generally 6 inches or less), and two System Dice for a vehicle to move on Run/Charge Orders (generally between 7 and 12 inches).

Shooting with Vehicles
Vehicles can shoot with any of their available System Dice. Some System Dice may have been used to move or may have been lost through combat. What's left over can be used to attack enemy units. System Dice available to shoot are called "Attack Dice".

Vehicles Shooting at Vehicles
When shooting at vehicles with Attack Dice, the attacker rolls two or less Attack Dice at the declared Target Vehicle. The Target vehicle then rolls two or less System Dice in defense (the "Defense Dice"). The Target vehicle can use any of its available System Dice as Defense Dice. Defense Dice can include System Dice used to move the vehicle during the vehicle's movement/Activation.

The Attack Dice and Defense Dice are compared highest to highest, and lowest to lowest. If an Attack Dice is greater than the Defense Dice in any pair the Target vehicle loses that Defense Dice. The lost dice is no longer available as a system dice. The defender wins all ties. If a vehicle looses all of its System Dice it is destroyed.

Example 1: An undamaged Predator on Advance Orders uses its D6 to move six inches then declares it will fire on an Ork Tank within range and LOS. The Predator uses both of its Attack Dice for the attack. The Marine Player roll a D12 and D8, scoring an 8 and a 4. The Ork Player then rolls two Defense Dice, 2D8s, and scores a 5 and a 4. The Ork Tank looses the Defense Dice in the 8 vs. 5 pairing. The lost dice is no longer available as a system dice for the Ork Tank.

If the attacker has only one Attack Dice the defender must roll higher then the Attack Dice on at least one of its two Defense Dice. If not the defender looses the dice with the highest score.

Example 2: A damaged Predator on Advance Orders uses its D6 to move six inches then declares it will fire on a Ork Tank within range and LOS. The Predator has only a D12 available as an Attack Dice. The Marine Player roll the D12 and scores an 8. The Ork Player then rolls two Defense Dice, 2D8s, and scores a 5 and a 4. The Ork Tank looses the Defense Dice in the 8 vs. 5 pairing. The lost dice is no longer available as a system dice for the Ork Tank.

If the defender has only one Defense Dice he must roll higher or equal to the highest Attack Dice. If not the vehicle is destroyed.

Example 3: An undamaged Predator on Advance Orders uses its D6 to move six inches then declares it will fire on a heavily damaged Ork Tank within range and LOS. The Predator has a D12 and D8 Attack Dice. The Predator uses both of its Attack Dice for the attack. The Marine Player roll a D12 and D8, scoring a an 8 and a 4. The Ork Player only has one remaining System Dice, a D8. He rolls it as his Defense Dice, and scores a 5. The Ork Tank looses its last System Dice and is destroyed.


Vehicles Shooting at Infantry
The vehicle attack infantry with its available Attack Dice, but they roll the number of dice equal to the number infantry Attack Points on their Stat Line. The D-Type rolled is the same as the available Attack Dice.

Example 4: An undamaged Predator on Advance Orders uses its D6 to move six inches then declares it will fire on a Ork unit within range and LOS. The Predator has a D12 and D8 Attack Dice. The Predator is allowed three Dice when attacking Infantry. The Predator rolls three D12s and places them next to the Ork models of the Target unit starting with the highest dice next to the model closest to the Predator and then working backwards with the next highest dice placed next to the model next closest, and the lowest dice placed next to the model next closest. The Ork roll for three saves, one at a time. The Predator then repeat the process with the other available Attack Dice, the D8, rolling three D8.


Shooting with Moving Vehicles
A vehicle must expend one System Dice to move on Advance Orders and two System Dice on Run/Charge Orders. The remaining System Dice can be used to attack enemy units.

Shooting with Vehicles and Orders
An undamaged vehicle on Advance Orders will generally have two System Dice available as Attack Dice. After or before movement the vehicle can use its Attack Dice to attack enemy units, but because it is on Advance Orders it can target only enemy units at short and middle range.

An undamaged vehicle on Run/Charge Orders will generally have only one System Dice available as an Attack Dice. After or before movement the vehicle can use its one Attack Dice to attack enemy units but because it is on Run/Charge Orders it can target only enemy units at short range.

An undamaged vehicle on Cover/Fire Orders will generally have three System Dice available as Attack Dice. Since the vehicle did not move nor will not move this Game Turn it can use all of its Attack Dice to attack enemy units, and because it is on Cover/Fire Orders it can target enemy units at short, middle, and long range.

Shooting At Vehicles
Tanks can be attacked by other vehicles using their Attack Dice, and by certain Infantry-held weapons. Generally these weapons are classified as Infantry Heavy ("Hvy") Weapons. Tanks can not be attached by infantry basic weapons or pistols.

Light Vehicles (generally small/light Skimmers and Trucks) can be attacked by infantry basic weapons and pistols, as well as by Infantry Hvy Weapons and by other vehicles with their Attack Dice.

Shooting At Vehicles with Infantry Heavy ("Hvy") Weapons
Infantry Heavy ("Hvy") Weapons are infantry weapons with the "AT" (Anti-Tank) Special Rule. Infantry Heavy Weapons generally use a different Dice Type when attacking Tanks. A Infantry Heavy Weapon's AT D-Type is noted on the weapon's profile next to its AT designation.

The procedure for shooting at vehicles with Infantry Heavy Weapon's AT Dice is the same as when using vehicle Attack Dice. The attacker rolls two or less AT Dice as designated on the weapon's profile. The Target vehicle then rolls two or less Defense Dice. The Target vehicle can use any of its available System Dice as Defense Dice. Defense Dice can include System Dice used to move the vehicle during the vehicle's Activation.

The AT Dice and Defense Dice are compared highest to highest, and lowest to lowest. If an AT Dice is greater than the Defense Dice in any pair the Target vehicle loses that Defense Dice. The lost dice is no longer available as a system dice. If a vehicle looses all of its System Dice it is destroyed.

If the Infantry Hvy weapon has only one AT Dice the defender must roll higher then the AT Dice on at least one of its Defense Dice. If not the defender looses the dice with the highest score. If a vehicle looses all of its System Dice it is destroyed.

Example 5: An undamaged Predator is attacked by a unit of Ork Infantry with an Infantry Hvy weapon. The hvy weapon is AT D-Type D10. The Ork Player rolls a D10 and scores an 8. The Marine Player rolls a D12 and D8 as Defense Dice, and scores an 8 and a 4. No damage.

If the defender has only one Defense Dice he must roll higher or equal to the highest AT Dice. If not the defender looses the dice and the vehicle is destroyed.

Example 6: A heavily damaged Predator is attacked by a unit of Ork Infantry with an Infantry Hvy weapon. The hvy weapon is AT D-Type D10. The Ork Player rolls a D10 and scores an 8. The Marine Player only has a D6 as Defense Dice. The Predator is in the open so no modifier for cover. The Predator is destroyed.

If the attacking Infantry unit has more than one Infantry Hvy weapon in the unit the Infantry Player can declare he will use one or all of his Hvy weapons on one vehicle target. In the case of multiple Hvy weapons attacks on a single vehicle the attacks are rolled separately.

Example 7: An undamaged Predator is attacked by a unit of Ork Infantry with three Hvy weapons. The hvy weapons are AT D-Type D10. The Ork Player declares he will attack the Predator with all his Hvy weapons. The attacks are either rolled in pairs or rolled separately.

First Attack: The Ork Player combines two Hvy weapons shoots and rolls 2D10 and scores an 8 and a 4. The Marine Player rolls a D12 and D8 as Defense Dice, and scores a 8 and a 4. No damage.

Second Attack: The Ork Player rolls a D10 and scores a 5. The Marine Player rolls a D12 and D8 as Defense Dice, and scores a 3 and a 4. The Predator looses the Defense Dice in the pair 5 vs. 4. The dice happens to be the D12. The D12 is discarded and is no longer available as a System Dice for the Predator.

Infantry attacking Vehicles in Close Combat
Infantry in base-to-base (model) contact with a vehicle attack it as if in Close Combat with other infantry.

The Infantry Player rolls the D type for each of his models in base-to-base (model) contact with the vehicle. The Vehicle Player roll any available System Dice in defense. Both players line up the resulting dice results in pairs, highest to lowest. Any left over dice "wrap-around" and are added to the Player's highest dice first, then the next highest, and so on. The resulting scores are compared. The Player with the lowest score in the pairing must make a Save. Equal pairs are ignored. Those attacks are considered either blocked or missed. However, the Infantry Player must make a CC Save(s) equal to or greater than all their dice result of a "1".

Example 8: An undamaged Predator is in base contact with four Ork Boys and an Ork Nob. The Ork Player rolls 4D6 and a D8 scores a 5, 5,4, 3, and a 1. The Marine Player rolls his System Dice, a D12, a D8, and a D6, and scores an 11, 8, and a 1. The dice are arraigned in pairs hight to lowest: 5to11, 5to8, and 4to1. The Ork Player has two extra dice results, a 3 and a 1. These results "wrap around" and are added to the existing pairs starting with the highest. So the groupings become 3+5to11, 1+5to8, and 4to1. The Marine Player looses the System Dice with the "1" score. The Ork Player must make four CC Saves. He need not make a Save for the "1" he rolled because he is already attempting four Saves, which is more than the one "1" he rolled.

I reworked how vehicles attack infantry targets and added rules for CC with vehicles.

I think these rules would work great for big, Apocalypse type games. Fast, clean, nothing to remember, no charts, no hull points, just dice to throw and compare.

I amended the rules for CC attacks on vehicles and added rules for attacks to vehicles from the rear. Check it out:

Infantry attacking Vehicles in Close Combat

Infantry attack Vehicles in CC just like they attack other infantry in CC. The Infantry must be in base-to-base (base-to-model) contact with the Vehicle. However, the Vehicle can not be on Run (R) orders. Infantry models can not be in base-to-base contact with Vehicles on Run (R) orders.

The Infantry Player rolls the D type for each of his models in base-to-base (model) contact with the vehicle. The Vehicle Player roll any available System Dice in defense. Both players line up the resulting dice results in pairs, highest to lowest. Any left over dice "wrap-around" and are added to the Player's highest dice first, then the next highest, and so on. The resulting scores are compared. The Player with the lowest score in the pairing must make a Save. Equal pairs are ignored. Those attacks are considered either blocked or missed. However, the Infantry Player must make a CC Save(s) equal to or greater than all their dice result of a "1".

Example 8: An undamaged Predator is in base contact with four Ork Boys and an Ork Nob. The Ork Player rolls 4D6 and a D8 and scores 5, 5,4, 3, and a 1. The Marine Player rolls his System Dice, a D12, a D8, and a D6, and scores an 11, 8, and a 1. The dice are arraigned in pairs hight to lowest: 5to11, 5to8, and 4to1. The Ork Player has two extra dice results, a 3 and a 1. These results "wrap around" and are added to the existing pairs starting with the highest. So the groupings become 3+5to11, 1+5to8, and 4to1. The Marine Player looses the System Dice with the "1" score. The Ork Player must make four CC Saves. He need not make a Save for the "1" he rolled because he must attempt four Saves, which is more than the one "1" he rolled.


Vehicle Rear Attack
Vehicles are particularly vulnerable to attacks from the rear. When the attacker is in the rear arc of the target vehicle the attacking unit gets an extra D8 attack dice, but it must be used for an attack on the target vehicle.

Example 9: An undamaged Predator on Advance Orders uses its D6 to move six inches then declares it will fire on a undamaged Ork Tank within range and LOS. The Marine Player has also skillfully maneuvered his Tank to the rear firing arc of the Ork Tank. The Predator has a D12 and D8 Attack Dice, and an additional D8. The Predator has dice enough for three attacks but the addition D8 must be used for an attack on the Ork Tank. The Marine Player decides to use all his dice for an attack on the Ork Tank. He opens up with the D12 and a D8. The Marine Player rolls both scoring an 8 and a 4. The Ork Player has four System Dice, 2D8 and 2D6. He rolls his 2D8 as Defense Dice and scores a 5 and a 4. The Ork Tank looses the "5" Dice. The Marine Player then rolls his "up the butt" shot, the extra D8, and scores a 4. The Ork Player has three System Dice left, a D8 and 2D6. He rolls it as his D8 and a D6 as Defense Dice, and scores a 7 and a 4. The Ork Tank suffers no extra damage.

Example 10: An undamaged Predator is attacked by a unit of Ork Infantry with three Hvy weapons. The Hvy weapons are AT D10. The Ork Player has also skillfully maneuvered one of his Hvy weapons boys to the rear firing arc of the Marine Tank. The Ork Player has 3D10 Attack Dice, and an additional D8. The additional D8 must be used for an attack on the Predator. The Ork Player decides to use all his dice in an attack on the Marine Tank. He opens up with 2D10, and rolls an 8 and a 4. The Marine Player has three System Dice, a D12, a D8 and a D6. He rolls his D12 and the D8 as Defense Dice and scores a 5 and a 4. The Predator looses the "5" Dice. The dice happens to be the D12. The D12 is discarded and is no longer available as a System Dice for the Predator.

The Ork Player then rolls a second attack, the third D10 and his "up the butt" extra D8, and scores a 6 and a 3. The Marine Player has two System Dice left, a D8 and a D6. He rolls both as Defense Dice, and scores a 7 and a 4. The Predator suffers no extra damage.

Example 11: An undamaged Predator is in base contact with four Ork Boys and an Ork Nob. The Ork Player has also skillfully maneuvered two of his boys to contact the rear of the Marine Tank. The Ork Player gets 4D6 and 3D8 Attack Dice. The Ork Player rolls 4D6 and 3D8 and scores 8, 8, 5, 4, 4, 3, and a 1. The Marine Player rolls his System Dice, a D12, a D8, and a D6, and scores 6, 5, and a 2. The dice are arraigned in pairs hight to lowest: 8to6, 8to5, and 5to2. The Ork Player has four extra dice results. Normally they "wrap around" but in this example they are not needed. The Marine Player looses all his System Dice and the Predator is destroyed. The Ork Player must make one CC Save. He need to make a Save for the "1" he rolled. He can choose to roll the D8 for the Nob or a D6 for a Boy. He roles the D6 and scores a 3. The Ork CC Save is a 4 so the Ork Player looses a Boy of his choice.

RBLFunk;7178643 wrote:
I don't think of 40K's mechanics as complicated so much as detailed. Maybe unnecessarily detailed according to a different design philosophy,...

Well, philosophy is only part of it. Mostly its about what's appropriate for the level of combat you're trying to represent. The level of detail appropriate for a Squad level game (5 to 10 troopers, one vehicle per side) is not as appropriate for a Company level game (60 to 200 troopers, multiple vehicles per side).

The original game grew out of D&D, a small squad level game with individual stats representing individual characters and models/equipment. Over the editions the scope of 40K has increased, not only because GW wanted to sell us more stuff but more so because fans wanted to play bigger and bigger games. But GW never changed the core rules much. Its still based on individual stats and equipment. So increasingly GW was confronted with two choices, either make a bunch of individual rolls for unique models/ equipment, or ignore the individual stats and use the majority stat. GW does a combination of both. Doing the former means games can take forever and Players get bored. Doing the latter means individual stats are no longer a fun detail but a needless complication.



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RBLFunk;7178643 wrote:
Thirdeye, you nailed it in your last post though. A lot of it is just sticking with what I'm familiar with.

Sure, that's the thing that's really stopping innovation. Problem is the core game is all wrong for anything beyond a Platoon level game. Even then its needlessly complicated. The core rules are designed for one-on-one combat, and using them for squad, platoon, and company level battles is just so much shoving a square peg into a round hole.

RBLFunk;7178643 wrote:
Since vehicles moving at combat or fast speed can't just turn around and scurry back to cover, implementing Morale effects for them will probably require them to increase speed, move out of sight, or if it's not possible to move out of sight within the next activation, to slow and turn the strongest armour facing towards the threat.

This is good stuff.

RBLFunk;7178643 wrote:
I don't want to have reaction fire, other than what is possible through overwatch. I dislike mechanics that allow units to take extra actions.

Well of course actions are just an abstraction. In battle all kinds of action are happening, or not, all the time. I would rather more "actions" then a unit not reacting to what just happened to them, even if its just a morale check.

RBLFunk;7178643 wrote:
...close combat also represents shooting at close range,...

I always disagreed with this notion. Shooting at close range is shooting at close range. CC is swinging swords, punching, and rolling around on the dirt. I give shooting a close range a +2.

RBLFunk;7178643 wrote:
... a model may kill its opponents quickly and still have the opportunity to move, etc....

And then again it might not. So why have a universal rule that only ready happens RW part of the time. Maybe only allow consolidation if the assaulters wipe-out their opponents in the first round.

RBLFunk;7178643 wrote: My rules make shooting a bit more effective than in 2nd edition. Every basic troop can shoot twice a turn. So I'm okay with giving small timewarp advantages to close combat if needed.

I'd rather give equipment to assaulters like force fields, holo fields, camoline armor, cloaking fields, warp gates, etc. It always amazed my that GW does use more Sci-Fi stuff in their Sci-Fi game. Apparently they would rather rely on silly game mechanics to allow lightly armored assaulters to run headlong towards harden fighters in fixed positions with automatic weapons and live to fight in CC. Sorry, that just doesn't happen, and it shouldn't happen without some fluff reason incorporated into the game. So why not have one. It is a Sci-Fi game after all.

RBLFunk;7178643 wrote:
There's a few things I dislike about using different die types to represent troop quality, among them is that it seems a bit of an over-complication to require multiple types of dice (though mitigated if the whole system is built around it),

Its actually less complicated than having a bunch of modifiers to a D6 and charts to consult for a score to roll. It can be fastidious have to switch D-Types a lot. I've played games like that and can never seem to find that D8 in all the D10s when I need it. I try to minimize this by making D-Types army/race specific as much as possible, so there is little switching of types --- this type for this roll, that other type for that other roll. 2nd is like that for armor penetration.

Some army/race use conscripts and elites together with such significant differences that different dice types are required in the same army, like Eldar. Still, all-iin-all, the simple ease of simply roll off with your opponent for high high score, --- without having to add different modifiers to special colored dice, or make separate rolls, and/or consult a chart, --- is far simpler and faster than doing it with a D6.

RBLFunk;7178643 wrote:
Why not just use a D6 with a modifier for quality? A regular soldier is a D6, elite solder D6+1, veteran elite soldier D6+2, super veteran elite soldier D6+3 etc.

Two things. It keeps your core rules clean without the need for modifiers early on, and because its never that simple. Units are generally mixed stats. Commanders are generally higher stats, then there's characters and special weapons. If its just a different dice type it means you can simply roll it with your other dice and get an overall result that takes into account the benefits of the special stuff (character, model, and/or equipment) without having to add additional procedures and/or dice rolls, or without having to ignore the special stats that you paid for. Its all built-in; quick, ease, simple, and effective.

RBLFunk;7180815 wrote:Hi Thirdeye,

Given your contribution to the discussion in my thread I wish I had more to say. I read the examples of close combat against vehicles and the system seems very abstract to me. I get the simplicity of the rules as they're written down, in resolution they seem quite involved.

Hey RBL, thanks for the look. Yeah, well its the same story, not what people are used to. I"m trying to get the guys in my group to do some play-testing but we have been having fun with X-Wing and Warmachine, and now with 7thed coming out... I hope to get some play-testing in soon, sometime... this year... maybe. I'm convinced resolution will be quick and easy, and a lot of fun, particularly on a big board with a lot of models.

One thing we did discuss recently was unit activation. The concern was with match-ups between armies with big differences in the number of units. That's always the concern. We agreed the best way to handle it is with cards picked at random. You can use a deck of common playing card. Use Red for Attacker and Black for Defender. Count-out the number of each color for each unit in each army. Shuffle and pick from the top. Players activate a unit when their color comes up.

Hi lanrak, thanks for the comments

lanrak;7181498 wrote:
We used a similar 'random activation method' for our Bolt Action 40k conversion.(Pulling different colour order dice from a bag.)

Yeah, Bolt Action uses essentially the same system.

lanrak;7181498 wrote:
Unless you put restrictions on unit compositions , it can lead to 2 'death star units' activating one after the other , which replicates the problems of 40ks current game turn.

Yes, you mentioned that before and of course you are exactly right. You can "fix" the problem by simply restricting the size of units but I don't like that approach so much, Unless its a fluff thing nobody likes being told what they can and can't do when organizing their troops. I thought I could get the desired result with a more subtle approach, using the morale rules.

lanrak;7181498 wrote:
Unfortunately 40ks current game size and unit variety, make alternating unit activation quite difficult to accomodate without quite a lot of restrictions and or additional rules.
(Thats why I am looking into alternating actions.)

I would rather not resort to a mechanical turn structure. Its too restrictive and just doesn't "feel" right for a simulation of something as free-flowing as a battle.

I took a more subtle approach, using the morale rules. The morale rules are designed so that large units have a tougher time passing the test. It's a bit counter-intuitive but its a sacrifice I'm willing to make for the greater good of designing a better game. The idea is that Players will soon realize that unit sizes of between about ten and five models is the "sweet spot" and design units accordingly.

I will post the Morale Rules again so you don't have to wade through all the other stuff in this thread to find them. Please read them and tell me if you think my idea will work.

lanrak;7181498 wrote:
I tend to agree with RBL, the concept of different dice for each race is simple.But I am concerned it has simplified too much at the 'front end', and so you have to make up for this with added complication in the resolution.

You must be French. When you say you like K.I.S.S. you really mean kiss with a little tongue.

The game is designed so you came make it as simple or as complex as you want. I start with simple and go from there. The 40K version of the game adds a fair amount of complexity but that's because 40K Players want it and because the fluff, too some extent, requirers it. But I've been getting comments all over the place, "its too simple", "its too complex", "its too simple in design and too complex in execution". Well, its based on the tried-and-proven method of simply comparing dice throws used in games like Risk. There is, of course, added complexity because its designed for a tactical game as apposed to a strategic game like Risk, but the basic idea is still the same: roll off and compare dice. True there's more to it in the 40K version of the game, but nothing like what we have now, or what others are proposing as an alternative. No need to look-up a bunch of stats, or consult a chart, add and/or subtract a bunch of modifiers, make special rolls, and ignore certain stats when making other rolls. Talk about added complication in the resolution!

The problem is different stats on individual models in the same unit. And different ranges and cover in the target unit. Poly-K just does mixed units and target situations a whole lot simpler, quicker, easier, and better.


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Morale Rules

OK, so I have been working on the Morale Rules. Now since Poly-K puts an higher emphasis on Morale than does GW, these rules are more complex than GW's, but they're still simple enough and intuitive.

There are several elements to morale in Poly-K. The first is Morale Value. A unit's Moral Value is determined by its size at the start of the game plus a modifier called Troop Quality.

The second element to morale in Poly-K is Troop Quality. Troop Quality is based on race or army. The higher the modifier the lower the quality of trooper. For example, Marines and Eldar Aspects are Troop Quality 3; Orks are Troop Quality 5. Tyranids and Necrons have special rules. Everyone else is Troop Quality 4.

Example, a unit of five Marines has a Morale Value of 8+ (5+3=8).

Players must note the Morale Value of each of their unit's on their Unit Roster before the game begins. As many races / armies use standard unit sizes this shouldn't take too long. Some armies, like Orks, Necrons, and Tyranids have variable unit sizes so its important that Players note the Morale Value of odd units before the game starts, least they forget.

Morale Test: For each unit required to take a morale test, roll a D6 and the D-Type of highest Model in the unit, then add the number of models currently standing in the unit.

When Taken: Morale checks are taken any time a unit takes incoming fire, looses an assault, or when a Player attempts to Activate the unit.

Example 1: A Marine Player starts the game with a unit of five Marines. The unit has a Morale Value of 8+ (5+3=8). On the first turn the unit takes incoming fire and looses a trooper. The unit must take a Morale Check. The Sgt. has the highest D-Type in the unit (D10). The Marine Player rolls a D6 and a D10 and scores a 4 and a 2. He adds four, the number of troopers still standing, for a total score of 10 (4+2+4=10). The unit passes the test.

Example 2: A Ork Player starts the game with a unit of eight Orks. The unit has a Morale Value of 13+ (8+5=13). On the first turn the unit takes incoming fire and looses three Boys. The unit must take a Morale Check. The Nob has the highest D-Type in the unit (D8). The Ork Player rolls a D6 and a D8, and scores a 4 and a 5. He adds five, the number of troopers still standing in the unit, for a total score of 14 (4+5+5=14). The unit passes the test.


Morale Comments

Verm1s;7167496 wrote:

I don't quite get morale. A unit has to get a morale result higher than it's morale value to pass a morale test. So if troop quality is added to the morale result, a higher troop quality is preferable and - I assume - literally denotes the higher-quality troops? So why do marines have a lower troop quality than orks?

Troop quality is not added to the morale result (the morale roll), its added to the Morale Value. You want that value to be low because you're trying the role above it. Remember, the high D-Type increases the odds of rolling a higher number. High morale troops have a higher D-Type, and a lower Troop quality number means a lower number to beat and greater chance of a successful morale roll.

Verm1s;7167496 wrote: (Love post #8, BTW)

Thanks. Bit of a rant but it had to be said. But I need more than Love. I need community support. I laid the framework now I need community support to build a better game. Are you with me?

Mr_Rose;7167520 wrote:
The way I read it it's like this: The roll is D6 + {best die type} + {#remaining models} to beat {initial model count} + {troop quality}

10 marines take two casualties; their D6+D10+8 must equal or better 10+3
If the sergeant was one of the casualties they would have to roll D6+D8+8 to beat 13 instead.

Yes, correct.

Mr_Rose;7167520 wrote:
It seems a bit heavy on the bookkeeping though.

Well, I don't think it will be an issue in a small game. Players should remember the size of their original squad. Most squad sizes will be a standard number: Marines 10, with battle squads 5. Chaos standard unit size will be their sacred number, maybe split in half for battle squads. Certain troops shouldn't have a standard size unit, Ork and Nids. It's just part of their flavor. But if the Ork Player wants to run his Boy in standard sizes that's his choice. Actually, Blood Ax Clan would run standard size units @ 10.

Oh, yeah, didn't I tell ya? I hope to get some community support to do Clan specific rules, and Craft World specific rules, and Marine Chapter specific rules, and all that stuff. Come on guys, we can make this thing awesome.

Mr_Rose;7167520 wrote:
Maybe D6+{die type} to beat {troop quality}+{casualties taken} instead? But that doesn't allow characters to boost morale just by adding a warm body… hmm.

I just find it easier to add what's standing than to remember what's not there.

I was thinking, since Poly-K is all about comparing polyhedrons, it can get confusing if Players are using the same color dice. It would help game play if Players used different colors. Then I thought it would be cool if each army/race had their own "Chapter Approved" dice design. Fortunately dice companies like Chessex offer a lot of fun designs. I matched up some dice designed with the founding Marine chapters, not that you have to use them, this is just for fun. Its all about the fun.

1. Dark Angels (Dark Green). DICE: Chessex "Recon" (Speckled Green w/ White or Gold Numbering. Chessex 25125).

3. Emperor's Children (Purple). DICE: Chessex "Hurricane" (Speckled Purple w/ Gold Numbering).

4. Iron Warriors (Dark Gray Metallic). DICE: Chessex "Hi Tech" (Speckled Gray w/ Silver Numbering).

5. White Scars (White/Red). DICE: Chessex "Air" (Speckled White/Grey w/ Red Numbering).

6. Space Wolves (Grey/Black or Yellow). DICE: Chessex Dark Grey w/ Black Numbering.

7. Imperial Fists (Yellow/Black). DICE: Chessex Opaque Yellow w/ Black Numbering.

8. Night Lords (Dark Blue). DICE: Chessex "Golden Cobalt" (Speckled Dark Blue w/ Gold Numbering).

9. Blood Angels (Red/Black-Yellow). DICE: Chessex "Mercury" (Speckled Red w/ Yellow Numbering).

10. Iron Hands (Black/White). DICE: Chessex "Borealis Smoke" (Black w/ Silver Numbering

12. World Eaters (Red/Gold). DICE: Chessex "Silver Volcano" (Speckled Red w/ Gold w/ Numbering).

13. Ultramarines (Blue/White). DICE: Chessex "Stealth" (Speckled Dark Blue w/ White Numbering). Chessex 25146.

14. Death Guard (Green&Brown). DICE: Chessex "Earth" (Speckled Brown w/ Lt. Green Numbering). Chessex 25710.

15. Thousand Sons (Blue/Yellow).- DICE: Chessex "Twilight" (Speckled Dark Blue w/ Yellow Numbering).

16. Sons of Horus/Black Legion (Black/Red). DICE: Chessex Opaque Black with Red Numbering).

17. Word Bearers (Crimson). DICE: Chessex "Scarab" (Scarlet w/ Gold Numbering).

18. Salamanders (Green/Black). DICE: Chessex "Urban Camo" (Speckled Green w/ Yellow Numbering).

19. Raven Guard (Black/White). DICE: Chessex "Ninja" (Speckled Black/grey w/ White or silver Numbering).

20. Alpha Legion (Blue-Green). DICE: Chessex "Sea Blue" (Speckled Lt. Blue w/ White Numbering).

lanrak;7183414 wrote:Hi Thirdeye.
Is your proposed morale system only based on causing physical harm?(Percentage casualties.)

How does it handle supressive fire or fear/terror?

EG can attacks that do not cause physical harm cause a reduction in combat effectiveness?

Yeah, I originally wanted to use just one system for moral, which would include suppression and fear/terror tests. But what I have so far is involved enough; I don’t want to add to it. I also don’t like having to add dice. I like comparing high rolls instead. It’s faster and easier. Also, Players don’t like to have to do a bunch of morale stuff before they get to do what they want to do, like blow stuff up. So I wanted something quick and easy.

So I split it up. Before Activation units have to pass a Morale Test (outlined above).

A Suppression Test is taken by a Target Unit in reaction to any ranged attack, after all Save rolls are completed, it any. The Target Unit rolls the D-Type of its Command Model and compares the score with its CC Save (CC Saves are Army/Race specific). If the score is equal to or above the Army’s CC Save the Unit is not Suppressed. If the score is below the Army’s CC Save the Unit is Suppressed. The Units Orders are removed and replaced with a Suppression Counter. If the Unit is already Suppressed it Brakes and runs away. The models are removed and count as casualties.

The Advanced Game adds modifiers to the roll based on the Target Unit’s Orders. (+1 for Cover&Fire Orders; -1 for Run; -2 if Suppressed), and an Army specific Chart.

A Fear Test is taken by a Target Unit in reaction to a Charge Action against it (including Tank Shock). The Assaulting Unit moves six inches towards the Target Unit. The Target Unit rolls the D-Type of its Command Model against the D-Type of the Assaulting Unit’s Command Model. If the Target Unit’s score is equal to or above the Assaulting Unit’s score the Target Unit has suffered no physiological effects in reaction to the charge and can Fire on the Assaulting Unit. The effectiveness of the fire will depend on the Target Unit’s Order, and whether or not the Target Unit has been Activated. The Assaulting Unit can also fire into the Target Unit if they have the special rule “Charge Fire”. Who fires first also depends on the Target Unit’s Order, and whether or not the Target Unit has been Activated. Any models in base-to-base contact can not shoot or be shot at.

After any Charge Fire/Counter Charge Fire the Assaulting Unit continues its move towards the Target Unit. It can move up to the remainder of its Charge move and into base-to-base contact with models of the Target Unit, if possible.

If the Target Unit’s score is less than the Assaulting Unit’s score the Target Unit has suffered some physiological effects in reaction to the charge. The Units Orders are removed and replaced with a Suppression Counter. If the Unit is already Suppressed it Brakes and runs away. The models are removed and count as casualties.

After any Charge Fire the Assaulting Unit continues its move towards the Target Unit. It can move up to the remainder of its Charge move and into base-to-base contact with models of the Target Unit, if possible.

The Advanced Game adds modifiers to the roll based on the Target Unit’s Orders. (+1 for Cover&Fire Orders; -1 for Run; -2 if Suppressed), assault grenades, barricades/cover, and an Army specific Chart.

 Peregrine wrote:
This is a terrible system. You've removed everything that makes wargames even remotely interesting and replaced it with a bunch of hopelessly generic units that nobody will ever care about. You can't just reduce a unit's entire stat line and rules to a single "quality" rating because units aren't equally good at everything. For example, a Tau unit should have D10 in shooting but only D4 (or worse) in melee, while a DE unit should have D10 in melee but D4 in defense. And once you add that required depth you no longer have a nice simple system, so I have to ask what you're trying to accomplish by changing the mechanics so thoroughly.

Also, if you're going to get anybody interested in your game you should stick to the rules and resist the temptation to throw in bad jokes like this:

Thirdeye wrote:
If someone doesn't next time you knock out one of their tanks, torch it; literally, like with lighter fluid and a match. I keep a can by the gaming table for just such an occasion.

I literally have to agree with everything in this post.

 sing your life wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
This is a terrible system. You've removed everything that makes wargames even remotely interesting and replaced it with a bunch of hopelessly generic units that nobody will ever care about. You can't just reduce a unit's entire stat line and rules to a single "quality" rating because units aren't equally good at everything. For example, a Tau unit should have D10 in shooting but only D4 (or worse) in melee, while a DE unit should have D10 in melee but D4 in defense. And once you add that required depth you no longer have a nice simple system, so I have to ask what you're trying to accomplish by changing the mechanics so thoroughly.

Also, if you're going to get anybody interested in your game you should stick to the rules and resist the temptation to throw in bad jokes like this:

Thirdeye wrote:
If someone doesn't next time you knock out one of their tanks, torch it; literally, like with lighter fluid and a match. I keep a can by the gaming table for just such an occasion.

I literally have to agree with everything in this post.

Don’t knock it until you tried it.

Thirdeye wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
This is a terrible system. You've removed everything that makes wargames even remotely interesting and replaced it with a bunch of hopelessly generic units that nobody will ever care about. You can't just reduce a unit's entire stat line and rules to a single "quality" rating because units aren't equally good at everything. For example, a Tau unit should have D10 in shooting but only D4 (or worse) in melee, while a DE unit should have D10 in melee but D4 in defense. And once you add that required depth you no longer have a nice simple system, so I have to ask what you're trying to accomplish by changing the mechanics so thoroughly.

Also, if you're going to get anybody interested in your game you should stick to the rules and resist the temptation to throw in bad jokes like this:

Thirdeye wrote:
If someone doesn't next time you knock out one of their tanks, torch it; literally, like with lighter fluid and a match. I keep a can by the gaming table for just such an occasion.

I literally have to agree with everything in this post.

Don’t knock it until you tried it.

I get, you made this ruleset so you obviously like it, it's just that there's nothing to make it this game interesting or unique in the rules.

 sing your life wrote:


I get, you made this ruleset so you obviously like it, it's just that there's nothing to make it this game interesting or unique in the rules.

How you define "unique"? There is nothing like it in any other proposed 40K rule set. Objectively, it is unique.

As to "interesting", well, that of course is subjective.

I certainly understand that most die-hard fans are comfortable with GW's D&D based rule set, and are uncomfortable with anything radically different. I get that. But the GW model, with its plethora of stats and rubegoldburgish mechanics, is making the game unplayable and is unsustainable. Consider the new rules for the Buffmander, Serpent Shield, Laser Lock, Perfect Timing, Grav-amps and the Wyvern.

We don't need all that minutiae. There is a better way, simple, quick, clean, and fun. Open your mind and give it a try. You might like it.