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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




My problem is my opponents use of two Serpents (with Holo fields), both with full Dire Avenger squads. Being troop choices, they are prime targets. I just can't get past the damn Serpent. With Tau, I just can't produce the firepower needed to drop one in a turn, without getting too close and getting enough markerlights to allow enough ignores cover shooting. I thought the RIptide could come to the rescue again, assaulting the rear armour. But when the Dire Avengers get out, they normally put down a few wounds, plus supporting fire from his other grav tanks. Seriously, he has 4 tanks, all with Holo-fields (two serpents, two Fire Prisms). As a result, this is a lot of Bladestorm, the perfect response to Tau battlesuits.

Realistically, dealing with all the tanks will most likely hand me a victory. But, this is my question. How the hell do I do that ? The Ion Accelerator on the RIptides aren't suited for tank killing, unless I Nova-charge. But normally I just don't take the risk. They can assault, but that means getting in range of Bladestorm. Hammerheads can do it, but using S10 single shots to glance a Serpent to death will take a while. HRR Broadsides still need to roll a 5 to penetrate. And all these shooting attacks need markerlight support in order to avoid the boosted cover saves. And using a Commander to buff a unit doesn't seem very cost effective.

What I've been thinking of doing is using the element of surprise in order to target the rears of the tanks. Shadowsun is an ideal unit to outflank with two Crisis Bodyguard, each equipped with 2 Fusion Blasters, and one of them a PEN (I only use the bodyguard due to all the Elite slots being used up). By having a Positional Relays on each Riptide and placing both on opposite sides of the board, I can dictate where Shadowsun's unit strikes, hopefully providing me with a prime opportunity. Other units could also compliment this, such as outflanking Kroot and a Darkstrider Devilfish, but neither of these are good tank hunters, and would be part of a wider strategy. But this won't be enough. Anything that isn't a vehicle is heavily affected by Bladestorm, and vehicles are still shot down by Lances. Ideally, the Fire Prisms are the initial target, with those gone the primary anti-tank models are removed, and vehicles are safer.

All of this leads me to consider, what can compliment Shadowsun ? It needs to strike fast with enough tank-hunting capability. Ideally a vehicle so Bladestorm is useless. Which has lead me to consider one option: the humble Piranha. The fastest unit in the whole codex, and a vehicle. By taking them in squads of 3, they can speed across the board, making use of cover effectively due to being relatively small. And as a unit of 3, you only need two markerlights to provide the whole unit with ignores cover shooting. Their speed means I can hopefully target the rear armour to avoid the Serpent Shields. Relatively cheap, and they also have jink saves against the small amount of stuff that can hit them. The Serpents can shoot their shields, but then they open up to Riptide and Hammerhead shooting.

So, I ask you, Dakka community. Are my ideas any good ? Would you do anything different ? Are Piranha's the perfect solution for my dilemma ? And how many would you take to do the job ? Are there any other effective solutions ? Any suggestions are gratefully accepted. And thinking of a strategy to beat them is definitely better than talking about how op they are

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/11 23:40:46


 
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut



New Zealand

Stop thinking in terms of high value/strength low volume of fire, kill Serpents with torrent of fire (for all the reasons that torrent of fire is how you kill anything in this edition, its better, more reliable, more durable etc etc). With a 4+ cover save you are really taking your chances using Fusion Guns, because you can easily miss/fail to pen with your single shots and then he can easily get lucky with his 4+ saves. Its doubly worse for Fusions because they require you to be much closer than you would like i.e within range of his Wraithknight/counter punch units. The Ion Plate on the Riptide is incredibly overrated, there is definitely value in having one but mostly for the Interceptor pie plate which catches people out (and the occasional 2+ save unit). The two most consistent Tau players I know (consistent as in consistently placing in tournaments) both treat the Ion Riptide as if it doesn't have a gun, its a threat which people have to account and its often jumping forward playing more aggressively than you might think, but its damage output really isn't much. If you are taking more than one Riptide I would seriously recommend the Burst Cannon. Piranha are just a waste, a single Serpent will scrap the whole unit before it hits anything.

Anyway, the two best options Tau have for anti Serpent duty are the Burst Cannon Riptide and Broadsides. A Burst Cannon Riptide + the BuffCommander will just kill a Serpent a turn (it pretty much kills whatever it shoots). 3 Broadsides will reliably drop a Serpent with 2 Marker hits (or the Buffcommander being in the unit works even better, but he can only be in one place), otherwise you use two units to kill a Serpent. Your next best option is aggressive use of Riptides to punch them in the face, but this usually requires more work to set up. The usual Avenger units inside can be annoying with Bladestorm, but usually its the Wraithknight/s, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons etc which you need to take care of before you push foward.

In general I find Tau a tough matchup for Serpents when you build correctly (i.e Riptides and Broadsides) as all the firepower starts on the board. The Shadowsun/Fusion unit you suggested MIGHT come on turn 2 and MIGHT do some damage, 36 S7 shots which all start on the board and in range turn 1 have to have something insane happen not to do any damage by the end of turn 2. In any case you don't have to one shot his Serpents, Serpents really aren't that good at dealing with Broadsides (they have to chew through that 2+ save) and are terrible for dealing with Riptides so the damage coming back from 3-4 Serpents won't cripple you and you should win a war of attrition. If you drop 2 Serpents turn 1 with Broadsides + Riptide then his counter punch isn't going to hurt that much. Usually Serpent will go for the easy targets like Pathfinders (make sure you get at least 1 good turn out of them) or troops (reserve them, they do nothing against AV12), push forward to get board control (Wraithknight etc) and then just win on objectives.
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






A trio of HYMP Broadsides will eat serpents for breakfast. Just keep Firewarriors within rapid-fire range of the broadsides so that you can clear them off deepstrikers / infiltrators.

HBC Riptide and Iridium Armor + Stim Injector Buffmander placed in front of the Tide to tank wounds, also with MSSS, C&CNode and PEN will murder serpents.

Also, take multiple pathfinder squads to get moar markerlights.

Lastly, you cannot use PEN the turn you deepstrike.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/05/12 00:46:21


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Made in br
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

As their shields do not protect their rear side, DS missile crisis behind those serpents. S7 vs AV10 is murder Remember that if the vehicle did not move in the previous turn, Holo-fields only gives it a 6+ cover (it's worse than Disruption Pod)

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Made in au
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

 Sir Arun wrote:
A trio of HYMP Broadsides will eat serpents for breakfast. Just keep Firewarriors within rapid-fire range of the broadsides so that you can clear them off deepstrikers / infiltrators.


I call BS. 3 HYMP Broadsides without makerlights do anywhere from .8 to 3.3 wounds.

Even if you raise them to BS5 and ignore cover, you'll average anywhere from 2.22 to 5.45 hull points. HYMP are not reliable enough to take on serpents.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 02:16:49


 
   
Made in au
War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire




I typically lose my serpents against Tau to Missilesides.

A common opponent attaches a buff-commander, and has taken the Fire Support Cadre.

Ignoring cover, re-rolls to pen with S7 really does the trick. Even without Tank-hunters, they are still stupid good at it.


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Made in au
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

Belly wrote:
I typically lose my serpents against Tau to Missilesides.


Nice Anecdote.

Without tank hunters they're looking at 2.22 to 5.46 hull points. With tank hunters, you're looking at a ~340 point investment to knock out a transport.

 
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
 Sir Arun wrote:
A trio of HYMP Broadsides will eat serpents for breakfast. Just keep Firewarriors within rapid-fire range of the broadsides so that you can clear them off deepstrikers / infiltrators.


I call BS. 3 HYMP Broadsides without makerlights do anywhere from .8 to 3.3 wounds.

Even if you raise them to BS5 and ignore cover, you'll average anywhere from 2.22 to 5.45 hull points. HYMP are not reliable enough to take on serpents.


You do? I eat a serpent a turn with my broadside unit.

HBC Riptide with allied psyker or a buffmander works great too, though that eats just about anything lol.

Now i almost never explode them as that damn shield removes all my pens, but i still glance it to death. 2+ is a little ridiculous imo to remove a pen, since that feature doesnt exist anywhere else to just be a "better version" like a lot of race specific rules are.

As stated before, it doesnt protect the rear. Deepstriking crisis teams with any weapon can wreck some pain on them, though taking bursts against Eldar is kinda weak since the vast majority of what youre going to shoot is armor or T6+ so that leaves fusions/missiles/plasmas. I go with fusions because they can hunt monsters and wraiths either when the serpent dies, or they scatter and cant hit the rear of a serpent but can still hit a wraith.

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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Typically you're looking at 3 HYMP Broadsides, some missile drones, an ethereal, Quad Gun, and a Buffmander. Pricey, but we're talking targeting 4 different vehicles, re-rolling everything, and ignoring cover. Against AV 12, you typically want to shoot the Quad Gun and the missile drones at one Serpent, 2 Broadsides at another, and hope the 3rd one gets lucky. Very effective at dropping Wave Serpents, and not too shabby at dropping Wraithknights either.
   
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Nebraska, USA

only the shield's weapon mode ignores cover, the stock weapon does not. Which if they do that, theyre wide open for popping as it does not protect them for a turn if they shoot it. Thats why it has such a crazy range, to prevent it from auto-killing itself because its within range of every anti-tank weapon in the game without its shield lol.

Quite frankly i'd rather they shoot it, especially at my broadsides. 2+ armor, multi wound model...you arent going to kill them without some crazy luck unless youre penning the armor or hitting them for many turns, each of which gives me a chance to pop your precious serpents.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 02:50:40


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Made in au
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

 Vineheart01 wrote:
only the shield's weapon mode ignores cover, the stock weapon does not. Which if they do that, theyre wide open for popping as it does not protect them for a turn if they shoot it. Thats why it has such a crazy range, to prevent it from auto-killing itself because its within range of every anti-tank weapon in the game without its shield lol.

Quite frankly i'd rather they shoot it, especially at my broadsides. 2+ armor, multi wound model...you arent going to kill them without some crazy luck unless youre penning the armor or hitting them for many turns, each of which gives me a chance to pop your precious serpents.


I'm sorry, what?

It has a 60" range because they were afraid of it being blown up? They gave it a 60" range because they wanted it to be bs, because nobody ran tanks last edition. The serpent shield doesn't keep them alive, it keeps them dangerous. Using it for the reduce a pen to a glance doesn't work with S7. S7 relies on doing the hull points to AV12. To believe anything else is ludicrous.

 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Buffmander + Missilesides. Dead serpent a turn. Really, tau are not the codex that has problems vs serpents.
   
Made in au
War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire




 Scipio Africanus wrote:
 Sir Arun wrote:
A trio of HYMP Broadsides will eat serpents for breakfast. Just keep Firewarriors within rapid-fire range of the broadsides so that you can clear them off deepstrikers / infiltrators.


I call BS. 3 HYMP Broadsides without makerlights do anywhere from .8 to 3.3 wounds.

Even if you raise them to BS5 and ignore cover, you'll average anywhere from 2.22 to 5.45 hull points. HYMP are not reliable enough to take on serpents.


That's pretty damn reliable. A single missileside will take 0.5 hullpoints off a 4+ jinking serpent each turn.

4 shots -> 3 hits -> 0.5 pens, 0.5 glances -> 0.5 hullpoints after jink+shield. Throw in ignore cover, tank hunters etc. and 3 broadsides reliably kill a wave serpent/turn, by themselves.

Re-rolls to hit, re-rolls to pen, and ignoring cover are where the reliability comes in. I'd argue that broadsides w/ buffs are the best shooting unit at taking out a wave serpent, except grav-cents. But point-for-point, the most efficient.

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Made in ca
Executing Exarch






Buffmander + broadsides. Buffmander + riptide. Buffmander + crisis suits. Buffmander + anything and serpents drop very quickly.

With broadsides w/target lock and missile drones you can engage up to 4 targets, re rolling hits and armour pen. Odds are good at dropping 2 serpents a turn easily, and you can move and fire the drones, giving you an effective range 42" which isn't easy to stay out of. Even if the tiniest part of your tank is showing is a dead serpent. Odds are good you strip 1-2 hull points per broadside and 2 or 3 with the drones.

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