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So, with the advent of the new Daemonology psychic school, there may be a hidden silver lining (besides the game-breaking possibilities of giving non-chaos armies access to Daemons).

Could we finally be seeing the long-rumored release of new Greater Daemon models? If they are indeed giving many armies the ability to drop Daemon-bombs, it seems a fitting time to roll out a shiny new monster kit that everybody will want.

It would rather figure too, since I just dropped some cash on the Creature Caster kickstarter...

Ya know...

I have the fear, based on nothing at all concrete, it's just an idea at this point... that the creation of this new school is gonna remove a lot of the mystery from certain things.

Like, we start seeing requirements of having a Sisters of Battle or Ecclesiarchal Daemonurgist in order to field a Living Saint, because suddenly Living Saints just became Daemons of Order. Or the Legion of the Damned require some kind of Imperial Daemonurgist to show up on the battlefield, because these Space Marines From Beyond are actually Daemons of some kind. Blood Angels require a Librarian with Daemonurgy to field the Sanguinor, because the Sanguinor is a Daemon of some kind or another.

It just seems... dumb.

 Psienesis wrote:
Ya know...

I have the fear, based on nothing at all concrete, it's just an idea at this point... that the creation of this new school is gonna remove a lot of the mystery from certain things.

Like, we start seeing requirements of having a Sisters of Battle or Ecclesiarchal Daemonurgist in order to field a Living Saint, because suddenly Living Saints just became Daemons of Order. Or the Legion of the Damned require some kind of Imperial Daemonurgist to show up on the battlefield, because these Space Marines From Beyond are actually Daemons of some kind. Blood Angels require a Librarian with Daemonurgy to field the Sanguinor, because the Sanguinor is a Daemon of some kind or another.

It just seems... dumb.

I mean that's basically been my "head cannon" for quite a while now, so I have no problem with this development. A psychic construct by any other name is still a demon.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Ya know...

I have the fear, based on nothing at all concrete, it's just an idea at this point... that the creation of this new school is gonna remove a lot of the mystery from certain things.

Like, we start seeing requirements of having a Sisters of Battle or Ecclesiarchal Daemonurgist in order to field a Living Saint, because suddenly Living Saints just became Daemons of Order. Or the Legion of the Damned require some kind of Imperial Daemonurgist to show up on the battlefield, because these Space Marines From Beyond are actually Daemons of some kind. Blood Angels require a Librarian with Daemonurgy to field the Sanguinor, because the Sanguinor is a Daemon of some kind or another.

It just seems... dumb.

I mean that's basically been my "head cannon" for quite a while now, so I have no problem with this development. A psychic construct by any other name is still a demon.

@Psi: I sincerely hope this is not the case, but you're right to feel cynical, lord knows it'd be justified.

@demented: I know a lot of people kinda feel that the entities mentioned here are "daemons of the Emperor," but they've never, in any of the lore, required a summoner, or have appeared or vanished in a predictable way. I agree with Psi, in that some things should be left a mystery. Just like the 2 Missing Legions, I feel the mythos is all-the-richer with some questions unanswered.

Given that the Malefic table requires all users to have a copy of Codex: Chaos Daemons on hand at all times, I think GW's design strategy here is to force every player to have every book in order to play even a single game.

Given that the SM codex is £35...
The new rulebook will be ~ £50 or so

You''ll need your army's codex (1),the codex for your ally (2), one for daemons [unless you have them as book 1 or 2] (2/3), and probably one other codex, because santic (3/4)...

You're looking at a book cost of up to ~ £200, plus around £200 of GW's models for a "legit" startup. Paints & glue...

GW sees money, I see Ebay, Dakka Swap Shop and mass piracy.

But looking at this in terms of story line (cough.. I know but let me continue) could it be a sign of The End Times?

Chaos and the Warp breaking through much easier and this is it for reality, every psycher becoming a conduit for the beast of the warp?

 PotentiallyLethal wrote:
But looking at this in terms of story line (cough.. I know but let me continue) could it be a sign of The End Times?

Chaos and the Warp breaking through much easier and this is it for reality, every psycher becoming a conduit for the beast of the warp?

Yeah... I want chaos to reign, but this feels like an empty victory. CSM gets stomped on for several years, as does daemons, then daemons get some stompage and some Op-ness, and suddenly everyone is summoning them.

Its like putting duct tape all down a hairy leg, and then quickly ripping it off.
Slow down, GW.

Plz.

Well considering the power that summons greater daemons isn't Primaris, and also WC3 I can't see many people being able to pull it off on a consistent basis, especially if you can use DTW against it. Not every army has access to an ML3 psyker, and even then there's only the 50% chance to roll a 6 and get that power. On top of that, it looks like you may have to roll three 4+'s from your pool of dice to make that power work.

We don't know which armies have access to the discipline, and it doesn't seem (from the current rumors) particularly easy to get and then pull off.

Let's maybe wait on the nope train to f-thatville

As a side note, I would LOVE to see new plastic Greater Daemon models.

 rabidguineapig wrote:
Well considering the power that summons greater daemons isn't Primaris, and also WC3 I can't see many people being able to pull it off on a consistent basis, especially if you can use DTW against it. Not every army has access to an ML3 psyker, and even then there's only the 50% chance to roll a 6 and get that power. On top of that, it looks like you may have to roll three 4+'s from your pool of dice to make that power work.

We don't know which armies have access to the discipline, and it doesn't seem (from the current rumors) particularly easy to get and then pull off.

Let's maybe wait on the nope train to f-thatville

As a side note, I would LOVE to see new plastic Greater Daemon models.

It seems like Chaos might actually be very suited to summon daemons, as I would expect. They have access to cheap ml 3 psykers that can get a reroll to their test for 15 points.

Honestly, at this point I woulden't worry too much about it.

If the rules are accurate on how the Psychic phase works, it's going to take on average at least 6+ dice to cast those Warpcharge 3 spells. Between dispelling, and your maximum pool, it's not going to leave a lot of room for much else.

We'll see though.

 Sasori wrote:
Honestly, at this point I woulden't worry too much about it.

If the rules are accurate on how the Psychic phase works, it's going to take on average at least 6+ dice to cast those Warpcharge 3 spells. Between dispelling, and your maximum pool, it's not going to leave a lot of room for much else.

We'll see though.

Plus you are losing your ML3 psyker when you do it so it's not like you can summon endless amounts of bloodthirsters into your army. Even if you play Daemons and take 4 ML3 Heralds you still will only statistically get 2 of them with that that power, and will then (will likely) need to waste your entire turn of psychic powers for the chance to get off said power, which we can only assume the other player will be able to use his own dice to deny. I can't see it being more than a lucky occurrence rather than something to base your whole game plan on. To get that good of a chance at it you basically need to pour 500 ish points into Heralds and then figure out how to make them survivable enough to cast the powers. The primaris power, on the other hand, looks pretty nice.

Well you could summon a BT or you could summon some horrors and a tzerald with grim then cast power #1 for a free horrorstar that is pretty much self sufficient.

I assume we can still field the Daemons codex without relying on luck? What about as allies with CSM?

 A GumyBear wrote:
Well you could summon a BT or you could summon some horrors and a tzerald with grim then cast power #1 for a free horrorstar that is pretty much self sufficient.

You'd almost certainly only be able to take the Grimoire if it wasn't already included in the army list itself.

I'd expect that the actual Codex rules will still be relevant, and all the Hellforged items have a 0-1 limit on them.
If you took it proper in your list, it's there - even if the bearer is killed. So no, I highly doubt you'll be able to summon and endless supply of Grimoires.

Just my thoughts on this, but Thousand Sons armies might have a field day with all their psykers... I doubt I'd go for Daemonology myself, but I don't know enough to say no to it, either.

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I assume we can still field the Daemons codex without relying on luck? What about as allies with CSM?

Allies are being rewritten, I wouldn't be surprised to see CSM and Daemons become unable to interact with eachother. Thus making CSM utterly worthless aside from getting a baledrake somewhere.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see IG traitor legions gain more crunch credence...

 Selym wrote:

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I assume we can still field the Daemons codex without relying on luck? What about as allies with CSM?

Allies are being rewritten, I wouldn't be surprised to see CSM and Daemons become unable to interact with eachother. Thus making CSM utterly worthless aside from getting a baledrake somewhere.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see IG traitor legions gain more crunch credence...

It's been mentioned a couple times in the News & Rumors thread that CSM's & Daemons are still Battle Bro's...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I assume we can still field the Daemons codex without relying on luck? What about as allies with CSM?

Allies are being rewritten, I wouldn't be surprised to see CSM and Daemons become unable to interact with eachother. Thus making CSM utterly worthless aside from getting a baledrake somewhere.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see IG traitor legions gain more crunch credence...

It's been mentioned a couple times in the News & Rumors thread that CSM's & Daemons are still Battle Bro's...

They *may* edit battle bro's limitations. Wouldn't be surprised. Would be nice to see CSM get a leg up in 7th though.

What do we do if GW decides to say "everyone is battle bros with everyone. Want your Sororitas priests to preach the Emperor's word to a Hive Tyrant? NOW YOU CAN!" And doesn't change any of the SR and blessing stacking.

 Kain wrote:
What do we do if GW decides to say "everyone is battle bros with everyone. Want your Sororitas priests to preach the Emperor's word to a Hive Tyrant? NOW YOU CAN!" And doesn't change any of the SR and blessing stacking.

CHAOS GOES ON A KILLING SPREE!!!

DaemonTide, Eldar Trickery with Abaddon!

Regiment 666!

Grey Knights in love with Bloodletters!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because really, by that point, feth it.

 Selym wrote:

 Kain wrote:
What do we do if GW decides to say "everyone is battle bros with everyone. Want your Sororitas priests to preach the Emperor's word to a Hive Tyrant? NOW YOU CAN!" And doesn't change any of the SR and blessing stacking.

CHAOS GOES ON A KILLING SPREE!!!

DaemonTide, Eldar Trickery with Abaddon!

Regiment 666!

Grey Knights in love with Bloodletters!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because really, by that point, feth it.

Eldrad gives Abaddon his arms back! With fortune to boot!

Buffmanders riding with triple dakkafexes!

Rune priests shielding Necron Royal Courts!

Lelith Hesperax piggybacking on Asdrubael Vect piggybacking on Kutlakh the world killer piggybacking on Abaddon piggybacking on Gazghkull piggybacking on the Swarmlord piggybacking on Be'Lakor piggybacking on a Transcendant C'tan riding a Heirophant for the ultimate bad guy beat stick!

Actually that last one gives me an idea...

I don't want my Daemons taken away from me... they lose their fun and terror if they are just a toy that anybody can take with them.

Also, as a mono-Khorne player, and hence non-psyker, how does this affect me?

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I don't want my Daemons taken away from me... they lose their fun and terror if they are just a toy that anybody can take with them.

Also, as a mono-Khorne player, and hence non-psyker, how does this affect me?

No totem pole of beat-sticks for you?

To be fair, Chaos and Daemon Battle Brothers were not as bad as others because we couldn't send characters to join other squads due to Daemonic Instability.



In other news 1000th Post!!!

 A GumyBear wrote:
Well you could summon a BT or you could summon some horrors and a tzerald with grim then cast power #1 for a free horrorstar that is pretty much self sufficient.

Consider you need to spend 30 points for a grimoire, and there is no indication that you can purchase wargear for summoned units, this is a bit much to assume.

This actually doesn't affect me personally at all, because I'm Tau and what's psychic phase (I suppose it's only fair that I get to sit through a phase while my opponent's do nothing but pummel me, considering what my typical shooting phases look like). I severely doubt anybody I play with will take things to this kind of absurdity. It does seem like (as so often is the case) an interesting idea horribly implemented.

GorillaWarfare wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
Well you could summon a BT or you could summon some horrors and a tzerald with grim then cast power #1 for a free horrorstar that is pretty much self sufficient.

Consider you need to spend 30 points for a grimoire, and there is no indication that you can purchase wargear for summoned units, this is a bit much to assume.

If you read the 4th spell on the malefic chart it says the herald summoned may take up to 30 poimts of upgrades and all I thought of was grimoir for the horrors then my farseer explodes and brings out that keeper of secrets because slaanesh and eldar should totally bro fist each other

 Psienesis wrote:
Like, we start seeing requirements of having a Sisters of Battle or Ecclesiarchal Daemonurgist in order to field a Living Saint, because suddenly Living Saints just became Daemons of Order. Or the Legion of the Damned require some kind of Imperial Daemonurgist to show up on the battlefield, because these Space Marines From Beyond are actually Daemons of some kind. Blood Angels require a Librarian with Daemonurgy to field the Sanguinor, because the Sanguinor is a Daemon of some kind or another.

Unlikely. Those armies already have access to those units normally, with the Legion of the Damned being available to lots of armies. No need to add that extra layer of complexity for their own armies. And the
Daemons thing was likely driven more by wanting to sell more daemons than some re-balancing of the fluff anyway, and the Sanguinor, Living Saint ect. aren't really as suited to the same sort of treatment.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Well you could summon a BT

Ha. Read that as Black Templar, at first.

That would certainly be an unfortunate thing for a heretical psyker to summon.

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
they lose their fun and terror if they are just a toy that anybody can take with them.

Actually, quite a few armies, lacking psykers, aren't going to be able access Daemons anyway. Sisters, Necrons, Orks, Imperial Knights and Space Marines with BT Chapter tactics are all going to be denied access to Daemons. I would also not be surprised if 'Nids didn't get access to Daemons either, being that it would be more against the fluff than any other psyker army being able to summon them.

 A GumyBear wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
Well you could summon a BT or you could summon some horrors and a tzerald with grim then cast power #1 for a free horrorstar that is pretty much self sufficient.

Consider you need to spend 30 points for a grimoire, and there is no indication that you can purchase wargear for summoned units, this is a bit much to assume.

If you read the 4th spell on the malefic chart it says the herald summoned may take up to 30 poimts of upgrades and all I thought of was grimoir for the horrors then my farseer explodes and brings out that keeper of secrets because slaanesh and eldar should totally bro fist each other

Y'know, I would actually start an Eldar army, just to watch it all transform into various incarnations of Slaanesh in a wonderful fluff-murdering manner

 PotentiallyLethal wrote:
But looking at this in terms of story line (cough.. I know but let me continue) could it be a sign of The End Times?

Chaos and the Warp breaking through much easier and this is it for reality, every psycher becoming a conduit for the beast of the warp?

This is why I'm going Grey Knights for this edition.

Thematically, it's going to rock.