Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK, so as a relative newcomer to wargaming I can't profess to have invested as much time money or effort into this game as the rest of you battle hardened vets but I think I've invested enough to deserve a quick rant. So after six months of paying for books, paints, dice, measures and enough space wolves to be able to get beaten regularly at 600, 1000 and 1500 point levels in ever increasingly uncompetitive games I now have the enjoyment of having my local store manager revel in condescendingly informing me that I must shell out £60 for more poxy rules if I want to keep playing. I get things change and wouldn't have started if I wasn't prepared to keep investing but it's the attitude that I'm not welcome unless I allow GW to milk me dry that really jives me. The collectors Edition looks cool and people who want the fluff and the pictures etc are welcome to buy but I don't see why there isn't an economy version for people who just want to check it out and be able to play a few games without breaking the bank. I'll probably get myself a *special* digital edition tbh, stuff 'em. I'm on the brink of dumping my army on eBay already and if the game gets any more unbalanced I'll be looking for a new hobby.

This won't end well.

Not exactly news or a rumour...

Welcome to GW. You will find multiple folks who will agree with you and also tell you no one is forcing you to play.

Good luck on the rant though.

Well he does kinda look new to me.

My bad if someone could bump it to the appropriate thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I completely agree. There are plenty of people with the disposable income to simply not GAF about being forced to buy 3 books when only 1 is needed but I just think the hobby would reach more people and diversify the community somewhat if the everyman could justify the cost.

And this is why GW is stagnating. It's simply too much for many new players.
Something like a budget Dark Vengence box set would be a great way to get new players.


Oh, and have a game that's remotely balanced so the new guy doesn't show up with his rubbish Blood Angels and gets slaughtered every time.

Given the flexibility thats available within the game, its not just a game mechanics problem if a newbie with an unoptimised list comes up against a veteran with the opposite. If you only find people in your area who want to trounce the newcomers, then yes it will be hard to get into the game. I would suggest that is the same in any hobby/sport/whatever.

Whilst I didn't buy DV when I first started (because I wasn't sure if I would stick with it) definitely would've considered the next box set. I want to be clear, I'm not against there being a cost involved, I respect what it costs to design, develop and manufacture these games and the players should be given the ability to collect and invest as much as they like, I'm not saying I would see this taken away, I merely object to the aggressive way players are forced to spend more. It also frustrates me because I'm not a particularly sore loser but it's hard to enjoy the game when after studying the rules and spending countless hours trying to develop competitive lists and tactics I get smashed by every player and army. Guess I just need to get better.

Doesn't help that you're running Space Wolves too, we're unfortunately one of the weaker armies at the moment simply because we're one of the older Codices. We're supposed to be getting an update sometime soon though so I'm looking forward to that.

As for 40k... ebay and the Dakka Swap Shop is your friend if you're a newbie. Buying direct from GW is very painful on your wallet.

I agree but I'm the guy who spent 5 prestiges on Black Ops getting raped like 4-20 over and over before my K/D went positive. What I'm trying to say is I'm happy to lose if I feel I'm getting somewhere but 40k can be brutal.

 andywalker07 wrote:
I agree but I'm the guy who spent 5 prestiges on Black Ops getting raped like 4-20 over and over before my K/D went positive. What I'm trying to say is I'm happy to lose if I feel I'm getting somewhere but 40k can be brutal.

If you're not enjoying the games, then change the rules. Talk to your opponents, and unless they are total tools, I'm sure they would be happy to try out different handicap systems, or narrative type games that you can both enjoy. Pick up games are convenient because you don't really need to prepare, but they can lead to frustration.

The only place I have to play is my store and I buy stuff there to do my bit to keep it in business, I wouldn't expect it to run for free. I do get other bits from eBay though it's helped me loads.

Good to see another wolf brother, I find the problem is only a few builds work and buying anything else is a waste, I still remember the sad moment when the penny dropped that blood claws were redundant after I spent a week painting them. Ooff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well Flinty, as it happens the players at my group are pretty sound but the manager is more inflexible.

Legit rant dude. Exactly how i felt shortly after starting a year ago. What i did was stop going to GW stores, playing games there is rubbish on their tiny tables anyway.

Now i use only GW models. Paints, brushes, and buying models elsewhere. Also ebay and search for clubs near you!

Good luck.

(edit)

Just read your above post. Wasn't there before.
You could express your feelings to him or maybe start a club at a local hall. Get the other players involved too

You may have the right idea, I'll have to see if there's anywhere else I can go.

Try other games. None of the others are out to completely fleece you of money. Infinity has their rules for free online and you can proxy with 40k minis to see if you like it. Way easier, less models, much more balanced game.

Then there's Warmachine, Malifuax, Dropzone Commander, Firestorm Armada, etc. etc.

Maybe 40k is the wrong game for you or rather, maybe you are wising up to Games Workshop business scheme; buy the best units/newest codices and win.

I wont buy the book sealed in shrink wrap. Ill wait till vendors start selling it off in pieces and just buy the book I want... namely the rules part of it.

I must admit the warmachine models look pretty awesome but it will all rest on whether I can find another place to play.

 andywalker07 wrote:
The only place I have to play is my store and I buy stuff there to do my bit to keep it in business, I wouldn't expect it to run for free. I do get other bits from eBay though it's helped me loads.

Good to see another wolf brother, I find the problem is only a few builds work and buying anything else is a waste, I still remember the sad moment when the penny dropped that blood claws were redundant after I spent a week painting them. Ooff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well Flinty, as it happens the players at my group are pretty sound but the manager is more inflexible.

There are a few decent clubs in Essex - you don't have to stick with the local GW. Whereabouts are you?

Braintree


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 andywalker07 wrote:
The only place I have to play is my store and I buy stuff there to do my bit to keep it in business, I wouldn't expect it to run for free. I do get other bits from eBay though it's helped me loads.

Good to see another wolf brother, I find the problem is only a few builds work and buying anything else is a waste, I still remember the sad moment when the penny dropped that blood claws were redundant after I spent a week painting them. Ooff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well Flinty, as it happens the players at my group are pretty sound but the manager is more inflexible.

By inflexible I mean he's not going to be OK with people playing 6th ed an more

Nobody is making you do anything. If you want something to change, do something different.

Cool rant man. I almost care? Sell if you want to, don't if you don't want to. You can either keep playing with a local group (not at the store) who wants to play 6th, or you can buy 7th, or you can sell.

Once you're pissy enough to rant, I'm going to say you need to sell since it's annoying you rather than giving you enjoyment.

I disagree. They're forcing me to make a decision, one I'd rather not have to make.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing as unproductive as a rant is when people rant about someone ranting. I'd rather the validity of my points be contested in a constructive manner than simply told I'm not allowed an opinion.

Just like no one is forcing to read this post. If you don't like what I have to say, move along.

That may be true, but you have to understand some stuff.

1) GW is a public company. End of story. They are here to appeal to their stockholders, not to cater to the every need of the wargamer.

2) The 7th Edition BRB is on pre-sale. Nothing more. You can speculate all you want about what it will be like, but until you have it in your hands you won't know. Hell, I thought 6e was the worst thing since D&D 4e, but it has grown on me. And if you don't like it, continue to play 6e. I have plenty of old chaps that still play second edition Warhammer 40,000 with me.

3) By creating a rant thread prepare yourself to be ranted at for ranting. Nobody likes a ranter, and nobody likes a ranter ranting at a ranter, but we most definitely will rant at ranters ranting on the ranters that ranted on their original rant. (Say that 10 times fast.)

4) Just remember, this is a hobby for enjoyment. I feel your pain I don't like the idea of a new edition either, because I think GW continues to head down the wrong path. But hell, I love their miniatures, and I love the social aspect of the game, so I will keep buying their products.

AND PLEASE, OH PLEASE, JUST REMEMBER THIS:

Torrenting codexes and buying knock-off Chinese miniatures doesn't hurt Games-Workshop, it hurts your Friendly Local Gaming Store. Games Workshop will only sell what your FLGS orders. So by depriving your FLGS of income, you are risking losing arguably the best part of any wargame, the environment.

I understand what is said in this thread and agree to an extent with the frustration.

I'm a professional B2B salesman, and one of the most important concepts to grasp in solution sales is the cost/value relationship. (It's really cost vs perceived value)

My problem with GW is that they feel it is acceptable to release a terrible product like Escalation, and then force it into their core rules, devaluing the rest of their product offer.

If GW wants the game to be expensive, no problem - I sell a high cost, high quality product at work everyday, but if that's your business model you MUST ensure you deliver on the value promised.

Sales/Marketing rant done.

I think the key to maximising your customer base is to appeal to all levels of consumers with a range of different priced products, entry level, mid level, pro level.

Good points, znelson.
But to clear up any confusion, when they roll Escalation into the new BRB it will do two things.
1) Make the overall game cheaper. [You now need 1, not 2, books just to play Escalation.]
2) Make everything more compact and easy. [See above reason.]
*You should note, just like Unbound lists, your opponent HAS to agree to it. You can't just play Escalation without you both agreeing to play. If you choose to not play Escalation you should see no difference, except for the fact that it is there if you choose to play it.

You are spot on with perceived value though. It's more important that consumers feel they get a good deal rather them actually getting one. In a fantasy world I'd like to see a mini paperback version available for like £15 lol but when the rule book is £60 I'm left thinking "where are my two armies?"

@andywalker07,
You make a great point. I honestly do think that GamesWorkshop needs to release more and more entry level box sets for each army. I think they need to have a mini-rulebook, similar to what is found in the Starter Set, available by itself, and every army should have some sort of Starter Set box with lower-quality models. I myself, would much prefer that.