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**Mr Morden**

Edit: Lelith looks good now

We have not IIRC had confirmation she still:

Ignores armour
Has her 3++/4++ saves any more
She has apparently +1 A but that might just replace her special ability which depended on the opponents WS and was actually quite fluffy - hence being dropped I guess

**Fishboy**

I am surprised nobody (that I have seen) is touting how much ID stuff the DE have now. I also am surprised nobody has mentioned the Coven book. It has about 8 different formations in it, some really nice warlord traits, great art work and fluff, and some pretty good buffs to a Coven list. I think Coven is a viable list again

. Liquifier will still be king even with the other gun (only one shot), and ST3.

Court is nice especially considering using a WWP with it. Medusa are 25 points each but OMG they would be super nasty hehe. I think GW actually did a pretty good job with this list and I already see options that make them real winners with combos. Serpent spam will still be tough but there are some great anti vehicle punch units and some very nice anti psy wargear that will help out. DS into GK or seer council, take the wargear that causes perils on doubles, and the wargear that reduces leadership).

No doom and gloom!!!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
She does ignore armour (precision blade I believe), has her 4++ 3++, can take an impaler, and I believe she rerolls hits and wounds in CC. She has 5 attacks with Rampage.

**mercury14**

Zewrath wrote:

I'd argue that they are. There isn't any units in the codex that doesn't cover their role better or cheaper. There's literally nothing to justify their choice now, not even as troop tax as warriors covers that rule much, much better.

That doesn't mean they're comparable to last edition's Mandrakes, which were probably the worst unit in all of 40k.

Addendum: Morden, we have confirmation on Lilith. She's a beast and only 150 points now.

**Colpicklejar**

Fish, would you mind sharing these supposedly awesome traits/formations?

**mercury14**

Lilith has 5 attacks +1 for two CCW, +1 for assaulting + D3 Rampage

So between 7 and 11 attacks.

At WS9

Rerolling misses

Rerolling wounds

Ignoring armor

On I9

For just 150 pts

**Exergy**

Fishboy wrote:
I am surprised nobody (that I have seen) is touting how much ID stuff the DE have now.

ID certainly is nice, but most of it appears mostly on things without a good AP and mostly on things that are melee ranged, so it isnt that useful against the MCs that are dominating right now, as it is difficult to close in on Jump/Jet MCs and nearly impossible to close in on FMCs. Once you get there, roll your 6 to wound and then it gets shrugged off by a 2+ or 3+ save.

Against characters, who takes a combat monster that isn't EW. If they do, who would accept a challenge from a DE character sporting ID and high init? If not in a challenge, LOS and armor save will be enough.

So DE have a lot of ID, that is a good counter to Ogryns and Tyranids ground MCs. Exactly what they needed!

**jamopower**

mercury14 wrote:
Zewrath wrote:

I'd argue that they are. There isn't any units in the codex that doesn't cover their role better or cheaper. There's literally nothing to justify their choice now, not even as troop tax as warriors covers that rule much, much better.

That doesn't mean they're comparable to last edition's Mandrakes, which were probably the worst unit in all of 40k.

Addendum: Morden, we have confirmation on Lilith. She's a beast and only 150 points now.

At least they brought an unique feature to the list being inflitrators.

**Exergy**

mercury14 wrote:
Lilith has 5 attacks +1 for two CCW, +1 for assaulting + D3 Rampage
So between 7 and 11 attacks.
At WS9
Rerolling misses
Rerolling wounds
Ignoring armor
On I9
For just 150 pts

does she have combat drugs finally? I want to bump her up to init 10

what about WS 10, so she can hit a daemon prince on 3+

**mercury14**

Exergy wrote:
mercury14 wrote:
Lilith has 5 attacks +1 for two CCW, +1 for assaulting + D3 Rampage
So between 7 and 11 attacks.
At WS9
Rerolling misses
Rerolling wounds
Ignoring armor
On I9
For just 150 pts

does she have combat drugs finally? I want to bump her up to init 10

LOL. Don't think so.

**jamopower**

Fishboy wrote:

Court is nice especially considering using a WWP with it. Medusa are 25 points each but OMG they would be super nasty hehe. I think GW actually did a pretty good job with this list and I already see options that make them real winners with combos. Serpent spam will still be tough but there are some great anti vehicle punch units and some very nice anti psy wargear that will help out. DS into GK or seer council, take the wargear that causes perils on doubles, and the wargear that reduces leadership).

You seem to forget that these wwp-deepstrike units cost 200-300 points (the archon will cost by himself 150+ points with shadowfield and about 200 with all of the fear stuff) and die on the next turn they arrive as they're still just t3 5+ save guys.

**mercury14**

jamopower wrote:
Fishboy wrote:

Court is nice especially considering using a WWP with it. Medusa are 25 points each but OMG they would be super nasty hehe. I think GW actually did a pretty good job with this list and I already see options that make them real winners with combos. Serpent spam will still be tough but there are some great anti vehicle punch units and some very nice anti psy wargear that will help out. DS into GK or seer council, take the wargear that causes perils on doubles, and the wargear that reduces leadership).

You seem to forget that these wwp-deepstrike units cost 200-300 points (the archon will cost by himself 150+ points with shadowfield and about 200 with all of the fear stuff) and die on the next turn they arrive as they're still just t3 5+ save guys.

If that's your concern then you can run a cheap Haemi or succubus. With a Haemi pushing PfP another turn forward, the whole unit will come onto the map with a 5+ FNP plus probably cover, etc. Then when they assault the following turn they'll have furious charge.

**AesSedai**

Would love some coven supplement info...

**Colpicklejar**

jamopower wrote:
Fishboy wrote:

Court is nice especially considering using a WWP with it. Medusa are 25 points each but OMG they would be super nasty hehe. I think GW actually did a pretty good job with this list and I already see options that make them real winners with combos. Serpent spam will still be tough but there are some great anti vehicle punch units and some very nice anti psy wargear that will help out. DS into GK or seer council, take the wargear that causes perils on doubles, and the wargear that reduces leadership).

You seem to forget that these wwp-deepstrike units cost 200-300 points (the archon will cost by himself 150+ points with shadowfield and about 200 with all of the fear stuff) and die on the next turn they arrive as they're still just t3 5+ save guys.

Archon with webway portal, shadowfield, and an agonizer is 155 pts, and I think the agonizer isn't exactly necessary if his entire job is to escort and then maybe tank wounds with his shadowfield. Getting an archon up to 200 points is ridiculous.

Sslyth are 25 points a piece for T5, 2 wounds, and feel no pain. They also have a shardcarbine, ST 5, and 5 attacks on the charge. That combined with the shadowfield is how the court survives.

**Exergy**

Colpicklejar wrote:
jamopower wrote:
Fishboy wrote:

Court is nice especially considering using a WWP with it. Medusa are 25 points each but OMG they would be super nasty hehe. I think GW actually did a pretty good job with this list and I already see options that make them real winners with combos. Serpent spam will still be tough but there are some great anti vehicle punch units and some very nice anti psy wargear that will help out. DS into GK or seer council, take the wargear that causes perils on doubles, and the wargear that reduces leadership).

You seem to forget that these wwp-deepstrike units cost 200-300 points (the archon will cost by himself 150+ points with shadowfield and about 200 with all of the fear stuff) and die on the next turn they arrive as they're still just t3 5+ save guys.

Archon with webway portal, shadowfield, and an agonizer is 155 pts, and I think the agonizer isn't exactly necessary if his entire job is to escort and then maybe tank wounds with his shadowfield. Getting an archon up to 200 points is ridiculous.

Sslyth are 25 points a piece for T5, 2 wounds, and feel no pain. They also have a shardcarbine, ST 5, and 5 attacks on the charge. That combined with the shadowfield is how the court survives.

Sslyth use to also come stock with ghostplate. 4+/6++ on T5 isnt terrible in terms of durability. 4 attacks base isnt bad either.

**ClockworkZion**

From "The Astropath":

4) Combat Drugs. D6 for every unit.
1. +1A
2. +1S
3. +1I
4. +1T
5. +1WS
6. +1Ld

Strength from Pain. The effects are based on game turn.
1. Nothing.
2. Feel No Pain (6+)
3. Feel No Pain
4. Feel No Pain, Furious Charge
5. Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Fearless
6. Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Fearless, Rage

Bloodbrides have Haywire

Wyches / Bloodbrides / Succubi: 4 + invul VS inflicted wounds in every Combat subphase.
Lelith: standard 4 + invul. 3 + invul VS every inflicted wounds in Combat subphase

Succubus can take: Replace close combat weapon witch Archite Blade 20 P.ts Replace splinter pistol with blast pistol 15 P.ts. Take Haywire Greandes 5 P.ts. Take a Webway Portal 35 P.ts Take objects from Close Combat Weapons, Weapons and Wych Cult / Cruelty or Artifacts.

Up to 4 trueborn can have Special Weapons.
trueborn Up to 2 can have Heavy Weapons.

Scourges are "16 P.ts" and "up to 4 models" can take special/heavy. They're Jump Infantry

Only flyers have Skyfire

Blood Dance is a Warlord trait that gives +1WS

And more from Scorpion:

In the Wargear section there is a note that states that Venom blades are only for Acolyths but...
In the Solitaires option it reads that the solitaire can change his carbine for a blast pistol and a venom blade.

Trueborn don't get access to carbines, jetbikes have Hit & run.

Baleblast is 18"

Q: What kind of save does a venom get now? He said no shields, so is it just left with cover and jink?
A: It has its 5+ inv. Only vihicle with flickerfield, no other can get it.

Q: Price on Aethersails?
A: 5 points, making flat out 24".

Q: Could i ask what, if any, changes have been made to Lelith, is it true she is now getting re-rolls on to hit + wound instead of bonus attacks vs WS?
A: 150, Rampage. No armour saves vs her melee weapons. Same inv as before. A league apart: reroll hit & wound in challenge, warlord trait: blood Dancer: +1WS, making her WS 10.

Q: Can Archons take 2 blast pistols?
A: Only one pistol

Q: Was there any change to how many special weapons can be taken by a squad of Trueborn since the size increased from 3 to 5? (Still only 2 dark lances/splinter cannons and 4 blasters?)
A: No change

Q: What exactly does the Wych special weapons do? Still trying to figure out something with the 100 wyches that I have
A: 2 Razorflails: AP5, Specialist weapon, re-roll to hit. Shardnet & Impaler: AP5, +1A, re-roll 1's to hit and wound. 2 Hydra Gauntlets: AP5, Shred, specialist weapon.

Q: Is the Voidraven Bomber now 10/10/10 as rumored?
A: Yes

Q: Can any of the voidraven, razerwing, raider, ravager, venom or reavers jink and fire at full balistic skill or are they stuck snapfiring after jinking?
A: Only snapfiring

Q: You mentioned that an acoultist is the only one that can use a venom blade. Can you confirm that scourges can no longer use a venom blade even though there is one that comes on their sprue?
A: Solitaire can get it too.

Q: You mentioned Trueborn have the same weapon options. Please confirm that they can still use shardcarbines. Other rumors have identified this as an option that was removed.
A: It is indeed removed

Q: Can you confirm how beast packs work. Can you really take 12 of anything in any combination and don't even need to bring a beast master in the pack?
A: Yes, that is true

Q: Are there any new army specific rules for any of the units besides pfp?
A: No

Q: When you take a Talos or Chronos in a group of 3 do they stay as a unit on the table or do you purchase them together and then they act independently on the board?
A: It states unit size 1-3

Q: What does the ossifactor do?
A: R: 24" S1, AP", Assault 1, Fleshbane and if a non-vihicle is removed as casualty, that model's unit saffers D6 hits, Ignoring Cover, S = T of model removed and AP-.

Nice and 1 can be bought pr 5 wracks just like LG.

Q: Has the shredder changed?
A: R12", S6, AP -, blast, Shred.

Q: [RE: Beastpacks] Have any of the prices for the models changed? Up or Down?
A: Beastmaster 10 p, Khy 10, RF 20p, CF 30.

Q: [RE: Beastpacks] How does the unit composition work? Similar to the 5th ed rulebook, or different?
A: 12 models, free choice.

Q: You mentioned that the Heam model is more like the old Heam Ancient, is it the same price?
A: 70

Q: Does anything change or 'speed up' the PfP table?
A: Hemon, Animus Vitae (need to wound with it - this actually very nice!!!) Archon in the formation. (not a very good formation)

Q: Are the Relics usable and interesting, or crap and interesting, or neither?
A: Artefacts of Cruelty are mostly good I think. There can be some nasty combinations.

Q: Is there any way to make Dark Lances better, or have they changed? I never found a Ravager particularly effective at busting tanks.
A: The same.

Q: Have weapon profiles changed, especially, haywire blaster?
A: Some have, some have not. Haywire blaster is still the same.

Q: What are the options for Arena Champ? Just power sword and Agonizer?
A: power sword and agonizer

Q: Reavers still Skilled Rider?
A: Yes

Q: Any changes to reaver options and their pricings. Blaster? Caltrops? Heal-L?
A: 16 points each, Blaster 10p, Heat Lance 10p, Grav 5 p, Cluster 15p. Same options as before, allthough Clusters give D6 S6 HoW hits, all their HoW hit have shred, and Grav gives concussive.

------
Drugs give:

on a D6:
¨
1. +1A
2. +1S
3. +1I
4. +1T
5. +1WS
6. +1Ld

warlord traits:

1. warlord and DE within 12" have Fear
2. re-roll Seize, Night Fightig reserve (INSANE GOOD!!!)
3. Warlord has Rage
4.Warlord has Hatred
5. warlord gets +1 WS
6. warlord and DE within 12" get Fearless

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Correction regarding Reavers: "crap! ! I am so sorry!!! It is rending and not shred. I mixed it up!"

**mercury14**

So Reaver HoW has shred not rending?

Caltrops are D6 S6 ones?

The guy isnt a native english speaker...

**Red Corsair**

mercury14 wrote:
Wych math vs MEQ where wych is charging. Percentages of a marine killed.

Regular Wych: 16.7%
Wych with Hydra Gauntlets: 28.8%
Wych with Razorflail: 25.0%
Wych with SN Impaler: not sure but I suspect >25%

Wych on +1A drugs: 22.2%
Wych on +1A drugs and HG: 37%
Wych on +1A and Razor: 33.3%

Wych on +1S drugs: 25%
Wych on +1S and HG: 37.5%
Wych on +1S and Razor: 37.5%

Wych on +1WS drugs: 22.2%
Wych on +1WS and HG: 37.0%
Wych on +1WS and Razor: 29.6%

Hekatrix on +1A drugs: 27.8%
Hekatrix on +1S drugs: 33.3%
Hekatrix on +1 WS drugs: 29.6%

Hekatrix on +1S and HG: 50%
Hekatrix on +1WS and Raz: 39.5%
Hekatrix +1WS and HG: 49.4%
Hekatrix +1A and HG: 46.3%

Hekatrix +1A, Agonizer: 125%
Hekatrix, +1WS, Agonizer: 133%

So it takes a full 6 wyches charging to kill a single marine... Yea that's why people say they suck. You aren't charging every turn, and your not going to make it there with 6 girls plus the unit leader unless your opponent is a chump. What infantry doesn't carry a flamer these days? The only times I don't carry flamers on my marines are when I am podding melta, which EXPLODES that fancy raider causing ~6 dead wyches, this is turn 1 btw so forget any FnP arguements. OK lets see how well the remaining 4 hold out after overwatch.

10 wyches with 3 weapons a hekkatrix and an agonizer in a raider is around 200 points!

200 pts! Please try to rationalize a one dimensional units that sucks at it's job for 200 points... Please I genuinely want to be missing something here because I own buckets of the things.

EDIT: The fancy weapons are trash BTW. A 50% point increase for 25% damage increase makes no sense. Just take more units.

As for the Drugs, only one helps them survive better, and even then they are just an ork boy, who cost 5-6 pts btw.

**ClockworkZion**

mercury14 wrote:
So Reaver HoW has shred not rending?

He confirmed he goofed on that one.

mercury14 wrote:
The guy isnt a native english speaker...

Quite possible.

**Exergy**

ClockworkZion wrote:
From "The Astropath":

Bloodbrides have Haywire

So now we can still get our old Haywire wyches, they come with +1 attack, +1 Ld, are not troops, and cost 15ppm instead of 12, but we still have them!

And more from Scorpion:

Q: Has the shredder changed?
A: R12", S6, AP -, blast, Shred.

3rd iteration of the shredder. Still epic fail

"they were terrible at 5 points and 18" last edition, let's nerf the range and add shred to something that usually wounds on 2+, that will make it good"

Q: Any changes to reaver options and their pricings. Blaster? Caltrops? Heal-L?
A: 16 points each, Blaster 10p, Heat Lance 10p, Grav 5 p, Cluster 15p. Same options as before, allthough Clusters give D6 S6 HoW hits, all their HoW hit have shred, and Grav gives concussive.

shred on reaver HoW, not Rending.
oooo that is much worse. I was almost thinking they could be decent with rending. O well

warlord traits:

1. warlord and DE within 12" have Fear
2. re-roll Seize, Night Fightig reserve (INSANE GOOD!!!)
3. Warlord has Rage
4.Warlord has Hatred
5. warlord gets +1 WS
6. warlord and DE within 12" get Fearless

2 decent options and a lot of complete crap

**Colpicklejar**

Are the 'artifacts of cruelty' the regs artificats in the 'dex or are they the coven ones? Wish we had those.

**Red Corsair**

There is almost never a reason to not roll strategic traits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Colpicklejar wrote:
Are the 'artifacts of cruelty' the regs artificats in the 'dex or are they the coven ones? Wish we had those.

Coven is the new black this edition. Thats before seeing any supplement info btw. I am sure their are some useful coven artifacts, I also predict multiple haemonculi in there since they took the 1-3 from the main dex.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
LMAO lelith has the +1 WS warlord trait so she is WS10! Thank good she can't take drugs or she would have 3 dead end outcomes basically.

Why can't we have the 3rd ed drugs back where you picked your drug and does and rolled dice to see if you took damage.

**ClockworkZion**

I believe the Artefacts mentioned are the codex ones. And yes, Reavers have rending not shred on HoW. I think Scorpion is not a native English speaker and is translating his dex for us to answer questions.

**Mr Morden**

Exergy wrote:
mercury14 wrote:
Lilith has 5 attacks +1 for two CCW, +1 for assaulting + D3 Rampage
So between 7 and 11 attacks.
At WS9
Rerolling misses
Rerolling wounds
Ignoring armor
On I9
For just 150 pts

does she have combat drugs finally? I want to bump her up to init 10

what about WS 10, so she can hit a daemon prince on 3+

That is impressive

she is really really going to get shot when she wins her combat

Lelith doesn't need drugs according to the fluff

- although later post says she gets WS10 anyway due to Warlord trait

Still amuses (saddens actually) that she has the same chance to hit a Gretchin as a Bloodthirster or an Avatar

**Red Corsair**

Scorpion wrote:
spooniermist wrote:Hey Scorpion, thanks a bunch for doing this!

I'm just wondering a few things about the Beastpacks:

1) Have any of the prices for the models changed? Up or Down?

2) How does the unit composition work? Similar to the 5th ed rulebook, or different?

3) You mentioned that the Heam model is more like the old Heam Ancient, is it the same price?

4) Does anything change or 'speed up' the PfP table?

5) Are the Relics usable and interesting, or crap and interesting, or neither?

6) Is there any way to make Dark Lances better, or have they changed? I never found a Ravager particularly effective at busting tanks.

Thanks again!

1. Beastmaster 10 p, Khy 10, RF 20p, CF 30.

2. 12 models, free choice.

3. 70

4. Hemon, Animus Vitae (need to wound with it - this actually very nice!!!) Archon in the formation. (not a very good formation)

5. Artefacts of Cruelty are mostly good I think. There can be some nasty combinations.

6. The same.

Clawed fiend packs will be awesome then.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also apparently reavers are 3-12 unit size now. So possible 4 heatlances

**serathnal**

I believe the new beastpack will be 7 fiends 4 flocks 1 BMaster with Baharoth. That is 37 t5 wounds with 87 attacks on the charge where 63 s5. 25 s3 rending + Bahas blind and power that can tank behind his 2+/4+ and hit and run.

**Exergy**

Red Corsair wrote:
There is almost never a reason to not roll strategic traits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
LMAO lelith has the +1 WS warlord trait so she is WS10! Thank good she can't take drugs or she would have 3 dead end outcomes basically.

What a useful warlord trait for her. Guess that is a good reason not to take her.

**serathnal**

Or to not make her your warlord

**Red Corsair**

serathnal wrote:
I believe the new beastpack will be 7 fiends 4 flocks 1 BMaster with Baharoth. That is 37 t5 wounds with 87 attacks on the charge where 63 s5. 25 s3 rending + Bahas blind and power that can tank behind his 2+/4+ and hit and run.

Yea I don't think the pack is dead just different.

**Exergy**

ClockworkZion wrote:

warlord traits:

1. warlord and DE within 12" have Fear
2. re-roll Seize, Night Fightig reserve (INSANE GOOD!!!)
3. Warlord has Rage
4.Warlord has Hatred
5. warlord gets +1 WS
6. warlord and DE within 12" get Fearless

I am assuming Urien gets #1 by default and Drazhar gets #3 as default(or has a special rule where he cannot be your warlord)

anything have either 2 or 6 stock?

**serathnal**

Bleh I can't do math this early. 42 fiend attacks. 25 flock. 2 BM + baha