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I don't know if they plan on revamping the WS to hit chart in 7th but I really hope they do. If they don't I am thinking of using a home cooked one of my own posted below. What do you think?

Would it unbalance the game too badly? (Vertical column is the attacker, horizontal is the defender)

Also I would also alter vehicles without a WS to hit rules to this: Vehicles that move less than 6 inches have a WS of 1. Vehicles that move 6-11 inches have a WS of 2, vehicles that move 12-17 inches have a WS of 3 and vehicles what move 18+ inches have a WS of 4.

WS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1 4+ 5+ 6+ 6+ 6+ 6+ 6+ 6+ 6+ 6+
2 3+ 4+ 4+ 5+ 5+ 6+ 6+ 6+ 6+ 6+
3 2+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 5+ 5+ 5+ 6+ 6+
4 2+ 3+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 5+ 5+ 5+
5 2+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 5+
6 2+ 2+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+
7 2+ 2+ 2+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 4+
8 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+
9 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 4+ 4+
10 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 3+ 3+ 3+ 4+

That seems awfully close to 8th ed. WHFB. It was a significant change when they allowed lesser WS to hit a far superior one on a natural six.

I think that in a game that uses six-sided dice, you should always be allowed to hit on a six. Everyone gets a lucky shot now and then.

Thy system is fine as it is. Why do you want to change cc?

 koooaei wrote:
Thy system is fine as it is. Why do you want to change cc?

The system is not great as-is, at all. WS7 and WS8 makes almost no difference whatsoever, whereas WS8 to WS9 is huge.

 koooaei wrote:
Thy system is fine as it is. Why do you want to change cc?

Heavily disagree here. WS is the single least valuable stat, point for point. And due to the oddity of how it works, WS 5 and 9 are considered the two best spots in the WS chart.

One of my biggest gripes in the current version is when tau hit my marines in cc on 4's, when other marines ALSO hit my marines on 4's. I thought they were supposed to be bad at melee or something?

There've been a couple threads about the exact same thing allready. And the thing is that you make ws more useful. If you make it more useful - you must pay more for it. This is gona make mellee models with high ws even more expensive.

Otherwise, you're buffing high-ws models agains low ws ones in mellee too hard that low ws models will do significantly less and won't be able to compete with high ws models point-to-point. Forcing the enemies to go even more shooty cause their regular ws3 guyz won't be able to deal with something like a daemon prince and ws4 guyz will die even more cause ws9 models will kill more.

WS is such a stat that it's useful only in mellee. Thus if you make it more useful and more expensive - it's gona be a nerf vs shooty armies.

Do you see the point? This changes introduce a buff for elite mellee units vs other mellee units. And don't do anything at all vs shooty units cause they're gona be dead anywayz as it is now. Even more so, shooty units WANT to more reliably loose close combat cause your assaulters won't get locked in mellee and can be shot at next turn.

Thus, your "mellee buff" turns out to be a nerf. Which mellee doesn't need at all right now. Especially non-deathstar mellee. If you want to buff mellee - focus on the problematic moments like assaulting from outflank, non-assault vehicles, random charges, overwatch, challenges, consolidating to other combat, etc. and not WS.

Hi folks.
Originally the 'WS to hit chart' was identical to the to wound chart!(WHFB 3rd ed, RT.)

But that slowed down combats too much!
So GW game devs wanted to speed up play , but I think they have gone too far in the other direction!

I agree having a chart that reduces scales of 1 to 10 to just 3+,4+,5+ , is unnecessary over complication that just reduces game play depth/detail.

The revised chart is better IMO.

But why use a chart in the first place?Why not list the value the model is hit by an oponent on?

Eg Assault value 3 models are hit on a 3+, Assault value 6 models are hit on a 6+,etc.
And a simple list of modifiers for the attacker to add to their 'hit roll score '.
No need for charts at all!

Agreed with the above two posters.

I wouldn't even mind if WS utilised the To Wound table; just dispose of separate tables and have one. Dropping the idea of a unwoundable models (eg. S3 vs. T9) of course, and just requiring extra rolls.

For example at the opposite ends of the spectrum:
- S1 against T10 would need a 6, a 6 and then a 3+ to wound.
- S10 against T1 would need a 2+, could re-roll for 2+ if the first attempt failed, and could then re-roll for 5+ in the event of snake eyes).

Eg. S3:
|2/6+| 2+ | 3+ | 4+ | 5+ | 6+ |6->2+|6->3+|6->4+|6->5+|

Eg. S6:
|2/3+|2/4+|2/5+|2/6+| 2+ | 3+ | 4+ | 5+ | 6+ |6->2+|

 koooaei wrote:
Thy system is fine as it is. Why do you want to change cc?

Because a grot, fire warrior, or conscript can hit an Avatar of Khaine or the Swarmlord on a 5+ and the aforementioned masters of combat can miss on a 2-.

And that's just silly.

WS is quite simply a dump-stat. You need an enormous gap in stats for it to matter, and even then it's very underwhelming.

I've used a system where a WS stat one step higher gives the person a 3+ to hit, two steps higher means the lower skill guy has to hit on a 5+, three steps means the higher skill guy gets a 2+ to hit, and four steps means the other guy only hits on a 6 and it works out fine.

Sure it means that Fire warriors assaulted by Wyches are beyond screwed and that a Hive Tyrant can assault a twenty man squad of Chaos Space Marines and not worry about getting wounded, but honestly that's what should happen anyway.

It also buffs the likes of Furioso dreads who fear krak grenades far less, while assault units like Tyranid warriors aren't going to be hopelessly tarpitted by a mess of conscripts.

This comes into play less often than you think because it does nothing to actually get the models into assault.

Those warriors still get instagibbed by Leman Russes and those Wyches in reality would get de-transported (because footslogging Wyches is a hilariously bad idea) and then shot to death with extreme prejudice. But now you're actually getting what you pay for as far as assault goes. Most assault units as it stands are overpriced due to poor damage dealing capacity after you've factored in all the dakka they're going to take before they ever get to assault. Having untrained conscripts be so likely to hit a Hive Tyrant is just insult to injury.

The Hive Tyrant is still lascannon and plasma gun bait. Even if flying, and even with a 2+ save (such as is possible with the homebrew fandex we use and the /tg/brew book I'm testing), the Tyrant can still be grounded by all those bolter shots, then focused by AP2 fire until he dies. Only four lascannon hits or six plasma gun hits to kill it on average (minus a few since it's taking a wound from being grounded). Even with cover, FNP, or invulnerables, it's still not too hard to shoot it to death.

Combined with consolidation into assault (disordered charges only though save for certain units and you take overwatch for every consolidation), disordered charges from stationary non-assault transports, spreading some assault transports to factions that need one, giving assault grenades to units that need it (initiative is another stat that doesn't matter as much as it should because it gets negated so much by cover), more generous granting of assault from running or outflanking (be very careful with assault from infiltration or deep strike though) and assault is now something to fear.

After quite a while on this system; it's worked out admirably well.

Dropping the whole unwoundable thing for more rolling is something I disagree with, the game has enough dice rolls anyway.

I don't think that the current system is particularly bad however I do think that the chart above makes sense.

I like how the chart reflects the fact that a grot is almost never going to hit a daemon prince using it's unholy skill but a khorne berzerker, who still may not be so good as a daemon prince, won't be totally outclassed.

One thing I think needs to be taken into consideration however are spells that make something WS1; they will have a much greater effect than they do at the moment, halving the current chance to hit at WS1

 Kain wrote:


Dropping the whole unwoundable thing for more rolling is something I disagree with, the game has enough dice rolls anyway.

No the game has too many dice re-rolls, and too many stats, and too many charts. We don't need all the stuff. Use a D-Type to differentiate troop types and roll-off D-Types. It can be as simple as that. Check out Poly-K.

Thirdeye wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Dropping the whole unwoundable thing for more rolling is something I disagree with, the game has enough dice rolls anyway.

No the game has too many dice re-rolls, and too many stats, and too many charts. We don't need all the stuff. Use a D-Type to differentiate troop types and roll-off D-Types. It can be as simple as that. Check out Poly-K.

I did, I didn't like it. It stripped out pretty much all the character of the units.

I've run on my system for a while now, modifying it as new editions and rules come out and me and my friends are satisfied.

Thirdeye wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Dropping the whole unwoundable thing for more rolling is something I disagree with, the game has enough dice rolls anyway.

No the game has too many dice re-rolls, and too many stats, and too many charts. We don't need all the stuff. Use a D-Type to differentiate troop types and roll-off D-Types. It can be as simple as that. Check out Poly-K.

I don't find the complexity overwhelming at all.

Your system seems far too shaved down.

 Kain wrote:


I did, I didn't like it. It stripped out pretty much all the character of the units.

I've run on my system for a while now, modifying it as new editions and rules come out and me and my friends are satisfied.

 Ashiraya wrote:


I don't find the complexity overwhelming at all.

Your system seems far too shaved down.

Ok, fair enough. Thanks for looking it over.

I think that part of the problem is that 40K is becoming a different game than what it core rules were intended for. 40k as we know it is more or less built around the bone structure of 3rd edition.

Rewind to back then games tended to be lower point values (1500 was pretty standard) and most models were more expensive point wise then they are today. It was all the dice rolling and stats that gave the models character and made them unique from each other (USR were not what they are today, lots of models had their own crazy rules).

Don't get me wrong I am not pining for editions gone by but simple pointing out that we play a game that's basic rule set was intended for a game with a significantly lower model count and model variety than we have today.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Thirdeye wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Dropping the whole unwoundable thing for more rolling is something I disagree with, the game has enough dice rolls anyway.

No the game has too many dice re-rolls, and too many stats, and too many charts. We don't need all the stuff. Use a D-Type to differentiate troop types and roll-off D-Types. It can be as simple as that. Check out Poly-K.

I don't find the complexity overwhelming at all.

Your system seems far too shaved down.

Isn't it funny that our avatars were enemies in the movie they featured in?

 Kain wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Thy system is fine as it is. Why do you want to change cc?

Sure it means that Fire warriors assaulted by Wyches are beyond screwed and that a Hive Tyrant can assault a twenty man squad of Chaos Space Marines and not worry about getting wounded, but honestly that's what should happen anyway.

I'm fine with it as long as you get rid of all that silly FMC so that i actually get a chance to shoot at you with my shoota boyz and not get auto-loss in mellee with mellee-oriented army.

This chart makes only uber-mellee units really matter in mellee. And that's bad. Hordes are allready not viable at all. And this system is gona make them even worse. Now hordes won't be just slow and vulnerable to shooting but also not able to deal with stuff in mellee.

I'd like WS to hit to be the same as BS to hit. Simpler, faster, and more hits for everybody.

 koooaei wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Thy system is fine as it is. Why do you want to change cc?

Sure it means that Fire warriors assaulted by Wyches are beyond screwed and that a Hive Tyrant can assault a twenty man squad of Chaos Space Marines and not worry about getting wounded, but honestly that's what should happen anyway.

I'm fine with it as long as you get rid of all that silly FMC so that i actually get a chance to shoot at you with my shoota boyz and not get auto-loss in mellee with mellee-oriented army.

This chart makes only uber-mellee units really matter in mellee. And that's bad. Hordes are allready not viable at all. And this system is gona make them even worse. Now hordes won't be just slow and vulnerable to shooting but also not able to deal with stuff in mellee.

Stormboyz get to assault fliers in our ork fandex, as do Jump infantry/MCs as a whole (Jump and Jetpack infantry/MCs or Flying Furioso Dreadnoughts also get skyfire), but Stormboyz and Gargs get to roll an additional d6 for each attacking model. On a six that auto-glance fliers or automatically place an armor ignoring wound on FMCs on sixes, though a to represent their suicidal willingness to get all up in yo grill, while on a four or five that model is lost, and on a one to three they get no special bonus for their assault.

Also, most melee oriented hordes already have better WS ratings than their corresponding ranged units. So Hormies, Bloodletters, or Sluggaboyz will flat out curbstomp Guardsmen or Fire warriors while not taking too much in return. In addition, most armies don't have anything with a WS better than 6 anyway.

The Dark Eldar are rather anomalous in how high their average WS is though given that their basic melee troop has a WS comparable to a Chaos Lord. And the hive tyrant and melee daemonic MCs (other than the FW ones) also have rather astonishingly high WS ratings.

We however, looked over the stats of everything and assigned changes and made add ons where needed.

Essentially a rewrite of everything in 40k according to the standards of the best of each codex in terms of internal or external balance while still striving to maintain the character of each unit and faction.

Rather than nerfing the best units and codices, the approach was to make everyone as viable as the best units.

 Kain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Thirdeye wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Dropping the whole unwoundable thing for more rolling is something I disagree with, the game has enough dice rolls anyway.

No the game has too many dice re-rolls, and too many stats, and too many charts. We don't need all the stuff. Use a D-Type to differentiate troop types and roll-off D-Types. It can be as simple as that. Check out Poly-K.

I don't find the complexity overwhelming at all.

Your system seems far too shaved down.

Isn't it funny that our avatars were enemies in the movie they featured in?

And you notice that now?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Thirdeye wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Dropping the whole unwoundable thing for more rolling is something I disagree with, the game has enough dice rolls anyway.

No the game has too many dice re-rolls, and too many stats, and too many charts. We don't need all the stuff. Use a D-Type to differentiate troop types and roll-off D-Types. It can be as simple as that. Check out Poly-K.

I don't find the complexity overwhelming at all.

Your system seems far too shaved down.

Isn't it funny that our avatars were enemies in the movie they featured in?

And you notice that now?

Given that both of our avatars are vocalizing, it makes for a rather odd situation when one of us posts right after the other.