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Just in! Going forward space marines can now use rip tides! It was stated in a book somewhere that some obscure chapter used tau technology to win against an nid invasion.
When asked why he used xeno filth technology the space marine in question said "I forgot we weren't supposed to."
When asked about this fluff a GW rep was quoted as saying it was to forge narrative we asked for more comments but he couldn't stop laughing.
We now go live to the forums where loyal fans are making outrageous defences towards new questionable fluff.

 Inkubas wrote:
Just in! Going forward space marines can now use rip tides! It was stated in a book somewhere that some obscure chapter used tau technology to win against an nid invasion.
When asked why he used xeno filth technology the space marine in question said "I forgot we weren't supposed to."
When asked about this fluff a GW rep was quoted as saying it was to forge narrative we asked for more comments but he couldn't stop laughing.
We now go live to the forums where loyal fans are making outrageous defences towards new questionable fluff.

They, uh, could take riptides in 6th too, either in a allied detachment or in a data slate.

In 7th they aren't battle brothers anymore...

 Triton wrote:
Again, you guys are looking at this from the perspective of old, outdated fluff.

In 7th edition 40K, not only can everybody except the Grey Knights summon daemons freely, they also apparently gain a ton of control over the daemon. Ultramarines fighting Plague Marines can summon a Great Unclean One, and that Great Unclean One will not simply slaughter the Ultramarines, it will actually go after the Plague Marines. This is a massive departure from the way things were before.

7th edition obviously makes significant changes to the lore.

But, but!

Father NUrgle taught us to accept eachother, and to bring the universe to it's logical end of entropy together! Us Nurglites are bros 4 lyfe!

I would like an explanation for why on earth CSM can use all psychic disciplines except telekinesis.

Is there any kind of reason or logic behind this or was it just another mandatory addition to ensure CSM stay SM-1?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I would like an explanation for why on earth CSM can use all psychic disciplines except telekinesis.

Is there any kind of reason or logic behind this or was it just another mandatory addition to ensure CSM stay SM-1?

SM -1.

Wardhammer.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I would like an explanation for why on earth CSM can use all psychic disciplines except telekinesis.

Is there any kind of reason or logic behind this or was it just another mandatory addition to ensure CSM stay SM-1?

I'm still trying to figure out why they hate the Orks so much. I don't even play the greenskins and I feel bad for them. I think they should at least get Biomancy and Pyromancy. They're Orks, aren't they all about being bigger and tougher (Biomancy buffs) and I'm no expert on them, but I assume they enjoy setting things aflame as much as the next guy.

Well really everything lost something except for IG and Vanilla marines. How dare some pitiful human psyker have more capability than my Rune Priests! *anger! shouting!* Yassin Sassin Snazzum Frazzum!

The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Millions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.

The whole point of the librarius and sanctioned psykers, is limiting their own strengths as to minimise the chance of chaos corruption. Over step that mark and you become a sorceror, at which point you would be considered Chaos.

No one just "one off" summons a daemon horde. Do it once grudgingly and next time it becomes a little easier and easier to do it. Yes it might explain the fall of Space Marines, so use that in your own background fluff, not in the game,

For me this represents a trend that started with apocalypse, got worse with Allies, then Knights, and now it's taking over the whole game. And that is GW's policy of sales over substance. If everyone can use them, everyone can buy them. It's eroding the foundations of the game. Literally the only reason that 40k has survived so long is because of the rich background. It damn sure isn't balanced rules or sanely priced models.

Sure I totally agree that you don't have to use the new powers, but it is yet another example of fluffy players being handicapped while giving more options for power gamers to create absurd combinations that abuse the rules.
Under the old system, if you wanted to add in models from another army for fluff reasons, then you could house rule with your friends and play as you like, whereas the power abuses were restricted by the core rules. Now they've flipped it, where fairness is optional, and doing whatever the hell you feel like is standard and encouraged.

I think we are about to lose one of the last things that is still good about this game, finally tainted by greed, just like White Dwarf, prices, supplements, data sheets etc. This company barely represents the hobby I started playing 15 years ago.

Anyone can sell their soul with the right amount of desperation. Thats how chaos warbands are formed.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Dozens of Billions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.

FTFY

The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Millions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.

True but its also fair to say that in each 40k battle with Marines involved, a Chapter often losses a substantial part of its forces - a few weeks gaming and they are likely destroyed - and that's not to mention how often named characters turn in small skirmishes?

 Triton wrote:
Again, you guys are looking at this from the perspective of old, outdated fluff.

In 7th edition 40K, not only can everybody except the Grey Knights summon daemons freely, they also apparently gain a ton of control over the daemon. Ultramarines fighting Plague Marines can summon a Great Unclean One, and that Great Unclean One will not simply slaughter the Ultramarines, it will actually go after the Plague Marines. This is a massive departure from the way things were before.

7th edition obviously makes significant changes to the lore.

None of that is a change to the lore. It was always explicitly possible.

Just like it's always been possible for the Imperium to shatter planets with giant rocks too. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it happens frequently.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Millions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.

The whole point of the librarius and sanctioned psykers, is limiting their own strengths as to minimise the chance of chaos corruption. Over step that mark and you become a sorceror, at which point you would be considered Chaos.

No one just "one off" summons a daemon horde. Do it once grudgingly and next time it becomes a little easier and easier to do it. Yes it might explain the fall of Space Marines, so use that in your own background fluff, not in the game,

For me this represents a trend that started with apocalypse, got worse with Allies, then Knights, and now it's taking over the whole game. And that is GW's policy of sales over substance. If everyone can use them, everyone can buy them. It's eroding the foundations of the game. Literally the only reason that 40k has survived so long is because of the rich background. It damn sure isn't balanced rules or sanely priced models.

Sure I totally agree that you don't have to use the new powers, but it is yet another example of fluffy players being handicapped while giving more options for power gamers to create absurd combinations that abuse the rules.
Under the old system, if you wanted to add in models from another army for fluff reasons, then you could house rule with your friends and play as you like, whereas the power abuses were restricted by the core rules. Now they've flipped it, where fairness is optional, and doing whatever the hell you feel like is standard and encouraged.

I think we are about to lose one of the last things that is still good about this game, finally tainted by greed, just like White Dwarf, prices, supplements, data sheets etc. This company barely represents the hobby I started playing 15 years ago.

I agree with every word.

One little thing though: I don´t think 40k is surviving due to the background any longer: many new players openly mock at the childish, dumb stuff they read in their books. The reasons that keep 40k on, in my opinion, are:
1) it is easier to find 40k players than to find people to play any other game;
2) many players have invested a LOT of money, time and effort in something they love and don´t want to see gone, and
3) the old style is still there. To begin with, we focus on the changes but most of everything they sell (like 90% of the rules, the fluff and even the models) is still copy-paste. And some aditions (some black library books, some models, some FW stuff) are still brilliant, so we keep spending money and talking about how awesome 40k is.

Something I feel is that everything is about to change. People is trying new things, competition in the market is growing and the 3D-printer apocalypse is coming... I actually welcome all the madness, because I believe it will eventually evolve into something useful. Night is always darker right before the dawn.

I believe that ten years from here 40k will still be here, and I believe that in that bright future, we will have a proper Sister´s Codex, Chaos Legions, Mechanicus, the Lost and the Damned and lots of Xenos, and it will not be allowed for a loyalist Librarian or an Eldar Farseer to summon a Daemon. And Draigo will be remembered just like Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau is remembered now: as an inner joke, not really that funny and quite embarrassing.

Praised be the Aurelian!

 DarknessEternal wrote:
None of that is a change to the lore. It was always explicitly possible.

No. It was never explicitly possible for an Ultramarines librarian to bind a greater daemon of Chaos to his will, without a daemonhost, and oblige it to fight the forces of Chaos.

Nor is it something that has ever happened in the fluff until this point.

Look, I get that people are going to want to justify their absurd loyalist daemon-summoning shenanigans, but come on.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Millions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.

The whole point of the librarius and sanctioned psykers, is limiting their own strengths as to minimise the chance of chaos corruption. Over step that mark and you become a sorceror, at which point you would be considered Chaos.

No one just "one off" summons a daemon horde. Do it once grudgingly and next time it becomes a little easier and easier to do it. Yes it might explain the fall of Space Marines, so use that in your own background fluff, not in the game,

For me this represents a trend that started with apocalypse, got worse with Allies, then Knights, and now it's taking over the whole game. And that is GW's policy of sales over substance. If everyone can use them, everyone can buy them. It's eroding the foundations of the game. Literally the only reason that 40k has survived so long is because of the rich background. It damn sure isn't balanced rules or sanely priced models.

Sure I totally agree that you don't have to use the new powers, but it is yet another example of fluffy players being handicapped while giving more options for power gamers to create absurd combinations that abuse the rules.
Under the old system, if you wanted to add in models from another army for fluff reasons, then you could house rule with your friends and play as you like, whereas the power abuses were restricted by the core rules. Now they've flipped it, where fairness is optional, and doing whatever the hell you feel like is standard and encouraged.

I think we are about to lose one of the last things that is still good about this game, finally tainted by greed, just like White Dwarf, prices, supplements, data sheets etc. This company barely represents the hobby I started playing 15 years ago.

I cannot exalt this enough. It says what I think, only with better wording.

 Triton wrote:
Again, you guys are looking at this from the perspective of old, outdated fluff.

In 7th edition 40K, not only can everybody except the Grey Knights summon daemons freely, they also apparently gain a ton of control over the daemon. Ultramarines fighting Plague Marines can summon a Great Unclean One, and that Great Unclean One will not simply slaughter the Ultramarines, it will actually go after the Plague Marines. This is a massive departure from the way things were before.

7th edition obviously makes significant changes to the lore.

Nurgle might think a few plague marines are worth it to corrupt a storied chapter like the ultramarines

Grey Knights can ally with daemons.

Just saying.

I can hear Matt Ward laughing up to our place.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Millions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.

The whole point of the librarius and sanctioned psykers, is limiting their own strengths as to minimise the chance of chaos corruption. Over step that mark and you become a sorceror, at which point you would be considered Chaos.

No one just "one off" summons a daemon horde. Do it once grudgingly and next time it becomes a little easier and easier to do it. Yes it might explain the fall of Space Marines, so use that in your own background fluff, not in the game,

For me this represents a trend that started with apocalypse, got worse with Allies, then Knights, and now it's taking over the whole game. And that is GW's policy of sales over substance. If everyone can use them, everyone can buy them. It's eroding the foundations of the game. Literally the only reason that 40k has survived so long is because of the rich background. It damn sure isn't balanced rules or sanely priced models.

Sure I totally agree that you don't have to use the new powers, but it is yet another example of fluffy players being handicapped while giving more options for power gamers to create absurd combinations that abuse the rules.
Under the old system, if you wanted to add in models from another army for fluff reasons, then you could house rule with your friends and play as you like, whereas the power abuses were restricted by the core rules. Now they've flipped it, where fairness is optional, and doing whatever the hell you feel like is standard and encouraged.

I think we are about to lose one of the last things that is still good about this game, finally tainted by greed, just like White Dwarf, prices, supplements, data sheets etc. This company barely represents the hobby I started playing 15 years ago.

I agree on the naked money grab

HOWEVER

My previous statements about being tricked really WERE for the first time.

Certainly, additional summonings would indicate a slide to Chaos (a rather steep one at that). If a chapter does decide to go to Chaos, do they lose all their equipment right away? Do they suddenly forget their training?

Do you see it as a chapter that summons Daemons immediately has their Stormtalons and Stormravens turn into Helldrakes while their Dreads spontaneously turn into Hellbrutes? Do the anti-grav engines on their Land Speeders and grav guns just stop working once the first Daemon pops onto the field? What about the Drop Pods and Assault Cannons?

There's almost almost always some kind of transition period between loyalist Marines and CSMs as portrayed in their respective codices as their training is stripped away and mutations (and lack of supplies/ability to repair) changes their weapons and vehicles into the types available to CSMs.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Grey Knights can ally with daemons.

Just saying.

I can hear Matt Ward laughing up to our place.

Ummm

No?

They can't. New matrix. Just saying.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Grey Knights can ally with daemons.

Just saying.

I can hear Matt Ward laughing up to our place.

Ummm

No?

They can't. New matrix. Just saying.

You can take CtA allies.

GK + Daemons is "legal".

Not to mention having a bunch of IOM psykers allied to them for summoning.

Doesn't Come the Apocalypse allow you to field everyone with the restriction of not withing 12'' of each other?

/e: ninja'd.

GW decided to completely stop about any sort of fluff cohesion they maybe had one time. It's 100% "Forge your narrative" now. Deal with it.

just because you can doesn't mean people WILL

BrianDavion wrote:
just because you can doesn't mean people WILL

So? It's possible. That is the point. Grey Knights can legally ally with daemons. This is not retconning fluff, this is purposefully completely breaking it.

To be fair they technically could in the 5th ed codex anyway since you could have Daemonhosts (daemons bound in a human body) in your henchmen squads.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I would like an explanation for why on earth CSM can use all psychic disciplines except telekinesis.

Is there any kind of reason or logic behind this or was it just another mandatory addition to ensure CSM stay SM-1?

Have any decision to allows any kind of non-Chaos god related psychic power to some SM and not other ever made any sense ever in the whole history of the game?
Both 7th and 6th edition psychic discipline allowance chart exists because of reasons. They are just the epitome of arbitrary.

considering how hard it is for loyalists to summon them in comparison, and that there are other drawbacks as well,

I see it more as a "whoops, I tried to use the warp, now there is a bloodthirster here" then a purposefull thing.


even purposefully, how do you think chaos got started in the first place? Good guys have to "fall" somehow....

 Selym wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Grey Knights can ally with daemons.

Just saying.

I can hear Matt Ward laughing up to our place.

Ummm

No?

They can't. New matrix. Just saying.

You can take CtA allies.

GK + Daemons is "legal".

Not to mention having a bunch of IOM psykers allied to them for summoning.

As "legal" as Tyranids alliances...... ( remember these are rules not laws..)
....so please tell me, were all these complaints from Tyranids-players of "no friends" just Illusions ?

Or, just for once, could we consider the fact units have to check if they "get along or do nothing this turn" aren't really a hint on alliances worth the name?

Basically a single top-level alliance, BB, and several levels of distrust.
You also hit your "allies" cause they are "enemies" and not "friendly units".

 easysauce wrote:

even purposefully, how do you think Chaos got started in the first place?

The universe started out as a completely equal existence, where everything was in perfect order, and nothing could change. Then the "big bang" happened, and every single piece of change and mite of disorder became reflected in the warp, and as the universe went on, these stacked together and grew ever greater, until sentient species came about. Sentience being a highly complicated, illogical and inherently disorganised/chaotic thing, caused the warp to have even greater disturbances.

Eventually, the sentient beings caused disturbances so large that the warp itself gained sentience, and then all semblance of order and normalcy degenerated into what we call Chaos.

Heroes add to chaos. Villains exist to make it exponentially worse.

thats my point... if good guys were "immune" to summoning daemons... WTF is the point? that just neuters the threat of chaos and makes it out to be weaker then it really is.

 easysauce wrote:
thats my point... if good guys were "immune" to summoning daemons... WTF is the point? that just neuters the threat of chaos and makes it out to be weaker then it really is.

Because A. that's not how Marines fall to chaos. "oops, I just summoned a bloodthirst, oh well."
B. It's so rare that it shouldn't be allowed on the tabletop, especially when its equal to the chaos factions ability to summon.
C. If their army is loyalist, then they'd be purged right there on the spot. Lose both models kinda thing.

 easysauce wrote:
thats my point... if good guys were "immune" to summoning daemons... WTF is the point? that just neuters the threat of chaos and makes it out to be weaker then it really is.

I wasn't arguing either side, I was answering the question