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Made in ca
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




Calgary

Can a space marine librarian summon a daemon. Yes. Do they? No. Quote a book that I can read where there was a loyal space marine librarian that summoned a daemon and was not executed or didn't succumb to chaos, and I'll take back my statement.

If you read the lore and follow the stories (at least that ones that adhere towards the general cannon universe) you see that Space Marines have different ideas on what is acceptable and can deviate slightly here and there regarding practices.

An example would be the Ultramarines. They adhere to the Codex with such conviction that to even deviate from it would be tantamount to heresy and would result in execution or a death quest.
Other chapters like the Exorcists summon daemons into themselves and exorcise them to gain a resistance to chaos. Which would be considered heresy by others. Such things are usually hush hush because to expose this would be to invite the inquisition or other chapters' animosity.

There is not a single loyalist chapter, however, that summons daemons to fight. Something that extreme would be heretical and would result not only in the execution of the psycher but also the censorship of the entire company (at best) or the entire chapter (at worst).

As such there's no cannon reason for a space marine to summon a daemon.

However, if you're saying because you CAN come up with a scenario where it may happen then I'm sure that some people can come up with any reason they want for anything. Here, I'll show you:

- Hive mind links up with the Necron and first ever necron-tyranids alliance occurs (Necron are battle brothers with Tyranids)
- Eldar sacrifice all their craftwords to the nids to give the other species a chance to win (Eldar are battle brothers with everyone)
- Emperor created the tau and on waking from the throne makes a permanent alliance (Imperium forces are battle brothers with Tau)

You can even do this with game rules to match non-fluffy game rules:

- Look out, Sir! with desperate allies - reason: Person of interest?
- Orks can do do blessing of the Omminisiah - Reason: WAAAAGGGGGH
- Tyranids must issue and accept all challenges - Reason: Tyranids are attacking the most dangerous threat
- Orks get FNP - Reason: Orks are the biggest

Now let's take this a step further

New rule: Units can now pick weapons from any codex. Space marines can fire pulse rifles. Orks can use guass weapons. Necron can use biomass weapons.

The problem that I have with this is that yes you can make an argument for anything and you can hide behind forging the narrative but the reality is that this has nothing to do with anything cannon. Games workshop doesn't really care about the balance.

I'd be fine if it was only chaos and chaos space marines that can summon and the rest get access to banishing spells but that's not what took place. On that note; why on earth are some psychic spells only accessible by some races and others don't have access to it? Example: divination with Dark angels only?

/rant




Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Just wanted to add in my two cents: Eldar. Do. Not. Summon. Daemons. The fact that they are giving farseers the power to summon daemons is idiotic. Eldar psychers take great pains to keep their powers under control as not to attract the attentions of Slaanesh. At the same time any daemon of the warp would love to make a meal of an Eldar soul. Giving them Maelific Daemonology flies in the face of all the craftworld Eldar lore. There are numerous examples of Eldar sacrificing themselves (and incidentally others, often Imperial forces) just to close a warp rift. Now all of a sudden they are going to go around opening them?
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

NuclearAutomaton wrote:
Just wanted to add in my two cents: Eldar. Do. Not. Summon. Daemons. The fact that they are giving farseers the power to summon daemons is idiotic. Eldar psychers take great pains to keep their powers under control as not to attract the attentions of Slaanesh. At the same time any daemon of the warp would love to make a meal of an Eldar soul. Giving them Maelific Daemonology flies in the face of all the craftworld Eldar lore. There are numerous examples of Eldar sacrificing themselves (and incidentally others, often Imperial forces) just to close a warp rift. Now all of a sudden they are going to go around opening them?


No, but I see no reason why the Dark Eldar wouldn't torture/brainwash (and if there's anyone who can do that to an Eldar, it's another Eldar) a Craftworld Eldar into summoning one or more daemons as support/distractions. That's how it's going to go down with my Eldar/Dark Eldar force.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Apart from the fact Dark Eldar hate Chaos more than anyone and have nothing to do with psychic powers as a result.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in es
Morphing Obliterator




Elsewhere

pm713 wrote:
Apart from the fact Dark Eldar hate Chaos more than anyone and have nothing to do with psychic powers as a result.

Yeah I was thinking that too.

Trying to justify some Farseers summoning daemons and fighting all together is quite complicated. For extra fun, add some GK allies.

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 Inkubas wrote:

- Orks can do do blessing of the Omminisiah - Reason: WAAAAGGGGGH
- Orks get FNP - Reason: Orks are the biggest

Tbf, the Orkoid reason for everything is "WAAAAGH!"

Why are Orks green? "WAAAAGH!"
How do Orks make their tech? "WAAAAGH!"
What is the Orkoid main religion? "WAAAAGH!"
Insert Question Here? "WAAAAGH!"
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

Maybe by acidient, a miss hap, and the deamon can turn on anyone?

Is using powers, deamon follows and uses it to break into realspace as warp fluctuates for a split second?

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in es
Morphing Obliterator




Elsewhere

jhe90 wrote:
Maybe by acidient, a miss hap, and the deamon can turn on anyone?

Is using powers, deamon follows and uses it to break into realspace as warp fluctuates for a split second?

I wish it was that way, but it isn´t. The Daemon does not turn on anyone, he meekly follow the psyker´s orders. And the rest of the army is ok, they all fight together against the other faction. Even if the army includes Priests, Commissars, Eldar, Sisters or Grey Knights.


‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

That's mad, deamons are sentiant, powerful , once out of the warp they will turn on anyone if they feel like it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/24 13:19:12


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

pm713 wrote:
Apart from the fact Dark Eldar hate Chaos more than anyone and have nothing to do with psychic powers as a result.


Eh, not quite. Check the book again. They don't so much hate Chaos as they are paranoid about Chaos invading Commorragh. But some pissant backwater planet full of sweaty mon-keighs? Who cares? It's not like they even live in the same dimension as us. Let's not forget that the Dark Eldar know exactly how much what they do feeds and strengthens Slaanesh. And they don't care. They've managed to get out of reality before the neighborhood went belly-up.

It isn't like the Dark Eldar are willing to summon daemons or anything. Or use them as murder weapons. Or transform themselves into half demons for personal gain. Or slowly channel the power of Khorne into the Dark City. Or be perfectly willing to capture a Farseer. I mean, it isn't like they use captive demons as a form of weapon or anything. Oh, wait, there's another one. Oh good lord, they won't stop!

When it comes to the real world, the Dark Eldar do not give a damn. They are the 'some men' Alfred was telling Bruce about. And if summoning one daemon for every one of the hundred billion inhabitants of a hive world generates a little more chaos, pain, and death, and reinvigorates them for one more night, they'd do it in a heartbeat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jhe90 wrote:
Maybe by acidient, a miss hap, and the deamon can turn on anyone?

Is using powers, deamon follows and uses it to break into realspace as warp fluctuates for a split second?


As a side note, I don't have the 7th edition book. Are you ever given permission NOT to treat summoned demons as coming from Codex: Daemons? By that I mean, do they still have to follow the appropriate ally relationships? (Because if so, the rules as have been explained to me would prohibit anyone with a relationship of Comes the Apocalypse from summoning demons, since they wouldn't be able to legally deploy the conjured unit.) There's probably something to get around this, but it occurred to me the other day as a possibility nevertheless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/24 13:24:43


Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in es
Morphing Obliterator




Elsewhere

 Jimsolo wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Apart from the fact Dark Eldar hate Chaos more than anyone and have nothing to do with psychic powers as a result.


Eh, not quite. Check the book again. They don't so much hate Chaos as they are paranoid about Chaos invading Commorragh. But some pissant backwater planet full of sweaty mon-keighs? Who cares? It's not like they even live in the same dimension as us. Let's not forget that the Dark Eldar know exactly how much what they do feeds and strengthens Slaanesh. And they don't care. They've managed to get out of reality before the neighborhood went belly-up.

It isn't like the Dark Eldar are willing to summon daemons or anything. Or use them as murder weapons. Or transform themselves into half demons for personal gain. Or slowly channel the power of Khorne into the Dark City. Or be perfectly willing to capture a Farseer. I mean, it isn't like they use captive demons as a form of weapon or anything. Oh, wait, there's another one. Oh good lord, they won't stop!

When it comes to the real world, the Dark Eldar do not give a damn. They are the 'some men' Alfred was telling Bruce about. And if summoning one daemon for every one of the hundred billion inhabitants of a hive world generates a little more chaos, pain, and death, and reinvigorates them for one more night, they'd do it in a heartbeat.
Touché.

I also remember some form of Heretic Cabal in a book called 'Crimson Tears'. They were trying to create a second Dark City, and allied with some Slaaneshy Lost and the Damned force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
jhe90 wrote:
Maybe by acidient, a miss hap, and the deamon can turn on anyone?

Is using powers, deamon follows and uses it to break into realspace as warp fluctuates for a split second?


As a side note, I don't have the 7th edition book. Are you ever given permission NOT to treat summoned demons as coming from Codex: Daemons? By that I mean, do they still have to follow the appropriate ally relationships? (Because if so, the rules as have been explained to me would prohibit anyone with a relationship of Comes the Apocalypse from summoning demons, since they wouldn't be able to legally deploy the conjured unit.) There's probably something to get around this, but it occurred to me the other day as a possibility nevertheless.

That makes quite a lot of sense...

The WD showed Coteaz surrounded by bloodletters to illustrate the point though, so I am not sure.

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






I have been reading through 7th and honestly, I think this whole issue about other armies having access to Malefic Discipline has been overblown. Even in the Psychic Phase section they state that you shouldn't just give those powers to non-Chaos armies just because and to have for good reason. It also goes on to state that if you want, make a house rule that non-Chaos can not take Malefic powers. The rule book has several asides that talk about house rules to make a game that is enjoyable and that you FLG can agree on.

To me they have two main modes of play in 7th: Ways to modify the rules to make balanced tournaments for people to play and story mode that make for interesting story driven campaigns which personally, I think is pretty awesome. Everywhere in the new rules, they encourage house rules to fit the reason for play such as a Tournament rule banning Malefic daemonolgy from anyone except for Chaos.

So what was the point of including Malefic for a lot of people? How about a story driven campaign that details the fall of an army. An example might be a Librarian out of desperation uses a Malefic power to win a battle and that opens the door so the next game, one of his powers has to be Malefic and if then the next one all of his powers must be Malefic to represent his fall to Chaos and then slowly introduce some CSM allies to represent the slow corruption of the Chapter. If the Librarian falls in battle and they loose the battle against an Imperial force than the Chapter is saved and brought to heel by the Imperium but if the Librarian ever successfully has Possession fire off and becomes a Greater Daemon then the Chapter fully falls and becomes a CSM army instead. To me that is an awesome campaign that tells an awesome story too, something to take a lot of pictures of and detail.

What I just described couldn't happen in other editions until now. This edition tries to satisfy all players. Tournament players and groups can adapt the rules for competitive play, Casual players can agree on rules and story players can make even more epic stories than before because we can now have forces falling to Chaos instead of them just going head to head which is really cool. For Eldar, the fall of a force of Eldar who realize Chaos is better so they leave the Craftworlds to become Chaos worshipping Corsairs.

Can't do it with GK because they have never fallen to Chaos but everyone else, you can tell some awesome stories with it and have GK be the policing force and such.

 
   
Made in es
Morphing Obliterator




Elsewhere

@Envihon: that´s quite interesting. Exalted.

I am holding my opinion until I read it carefully, the way you put it, doesn´t sound that bad.

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker




Northern Virginia

 da001 wrote:
@Envihon: that´s quite interesting. Exalted.

I am holding my opinion until I read it carefully, the way you put it, doesn´t sound that bad.

Really? He basically said, "As long as you make your own rules, it's no an issue!"
   
Made in es
Morphing Obliterator




Elsewhere

To be fair, I have been pushing forward the 'make your own rules' since forever. Specially since 6th. The rulebook has always had some 'fix it yourself' line, and if they are openly saying that a given rule is there to be fixed... well for me it helps me a lot, to fix that rule and many others.

The way I understand it, it is not a 'written in stone' rule. It is a rule that is supposed to be adjusted to the narrative through house-rules. I really like narrative games, and I can think about some campaign-scenarios that will benefit from having a, say, loyal Librarian suddenly summoning Daemons.

In a campaign, narrative-driven scenario, as an optional rule to be tweaked? Good.
In an average game, as if it were business as usual? Bad.

Of course, if you are into picking random games with strangers, you will meet the odd Daemon+Inquisition+GK player, but hey, he can go play with the unbound 9 riptides guy or the 400 unpainted gretchin unbound guy. A bad thing in 7th is that the player community is sort of broken in different groups with different interests. This is not new though.

Anyway, I am just containing myself until I read the rule... it still sounds pretty bad.

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

As I alluded to before - one of the issues is that each individual game of 40 can represent an important moment in the story line - so it may well be that moment when a given individual finally succumbs to the blandishments of Chaos in order to do X and Y.....

As others have said - the Dark Eldar mess about with Daemons much more than they “should” there are numerous examples in the Codex and the novels from individual encounters and bargains to the rulers of whole sub realms gathering Daemon armies.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






It's not daemons!

It's Daemonic Americans.

In all seriousness though it makes sense to have whacko inquisitors and off the deep end librarians running around opening portals to hell to win minor skirmishes. It seems like a few chapters would be willing to take the risk...
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
It's not daemons!

It's Daemonic Americans.

In all seriousness though it makes sense to have whacko inquisitors and off the deep end librarians running around opening portals to hell to win minor skirmishes. It seems like a few chapters would be willing to take the risk...

If I cba with 7th, I'd have a heretical chapter of SM spewing daemons on all sides. But ima retreat to older/alternate rules until I stop sulking about the uselessness of my current models.
   
Made in us
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot





Schofield Barracks Hawaii

 Envihon wrote:
I have been reading through 7th and honestly, I think this whole issue about other armies having access to Malefic Discipline has been overblown. Even in the Psychic Phase section they state that you shouldn't just give those powers to non-Chaos armies just because and to have for good reason. It also goes on to state that if you want, make a house rule that non-Chaos can not take Malefic powers. The rule book has several asides that talk about house rules to make a game that is enjoyable and that you FLG can agree on.

To me they have two main modes of play in 7th: Ways to modify the rules to make balanced tournaments for people to play and story mode that make for interesting story driven campaigns which personally, I think is pretty awesome. Everywhere in the new rules, they encourage house rules to fit the reason for play such as a Tournament rule banning Malefic daemonolgy from anyone except for Chaos.

I can understand where you are coming from however i get the feeling the guys at GW are throwing darts at a board full of rules ideas. putting them in a book and then throwing in the sentence " if you dont like it around where you play and your friends dont like it either dont use it. we dont care" Seems with a littlle more thought and effort it could be closer to balanced (a game this large and complex will never be truely balanced ) Just how i feel about it.

Into the fires of battle, unto the anvil of war!

DS:90S++G++MB-I+Pw40k11+D++A+++/fWDR+++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in ca
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




Calgary

 da001 wrote:
@Envihon: that´s quite interesting. Exalted.

I am holding my opinion until I read it carefully, the way you put it, doesn´t sound that bad.


Agreed. If you're looking at it like that, I guess it's OK. I guess if you play a tournament you'd hope that it was a bit more fair otherwise, I guess it comes down to 'narrative'. Going forward, I'll just destroy any 'loyalist' that brings forth daemons regardless of the reason why.


Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman. 
   
Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






 Guilldog wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
I have been reading through 7th and honestly, I think this whole issue about other armies having access to Malefic Discipline has been overblown. Even in the Psychic Phase section they state that you shouldn't just give those powers to non-Chaos armies just because and to have for good reason. It also goes on to state that if you want, make a house rule that non-Chaos can not take Malefic powers. The rule book has several asides that talk about house rules to make a game that is enjoyable and that you FLG can agree on.

To me they have two main modes of play in 7th: Ways to modify the rules to make balanced tournaments for people to play and story mode that make for interesting story driven campaigns which personally, I think is pretty awesome. Everywhere in the new rules, they encourage house rules to fit the reason for play such as a Tournament rule banning Malefic daemonolgy from anyone except for Chaos.

I can understand where you are coming from however i get the feeling the guys at GW are throwing darts at a board full of rules ideas. putting them in a book and then throwing in the sentence " if you dont like it around where you play and your friends dont like it either dont use it. we dont care" Seems with a littlle more thought and effort it could be closer to balanced (a game this large and complex will never be truely balanced ) Just how i feel about it.


I don't quite see it that way because if you look at the community, WH40k supports a variety of players all for different ways they like to play, all who argue about what kind of things would make this game better with us even hardly ever coming to a consensus. This whole thread is a good example of that with story players not even agreeing what rules follow the fluff and which break it. To me 7th is GW trying to take the step forward to create a game for all to enjoy. How do you balance a game that people want to play competitive tournaments with but at the same time make a game for people really gravitate to the lore and background who would want to re-create epic battles or make their own? The answer is you almost have to make two different rule sets and ways to create balanced modifiers for each mode of play. That is what 7th has attempted to do and I think they did it pretty well. It isn't perfect by any means, especially with the oversight of what happens with GK and psychic powers which means we are in some desperate need of a FAQ for several armies but for the most part, they did well and I appreciate the effort.

It isn't they just giving up and telling us to make our own rules or throwing darts at rules on a board. I see the method of the madness and they provide a structured way to make house rules, not just pick and choose at will for the rules you like vs. the ones you think are stupid. It's more of "From a competitive stand point, these rules seem OP or out of place but for a story campaign they are great to forge the narrative". Why do you think they have been thrusting that phrase that everyone makes fun of for? "Forge the Narrative" They are trying to remind people that this isn't just a game you can play to win but a game to be enjoyed whether you win or loose.

 
   
Made in gb
Tough Tyrant Guard



UK

 Envihon wrote:
Why do you think they have been thrusting that phrase that everyone makes fun of for? "Forge the Narrative" They are trying to remind people that this isn't just a game you can play to win but a game to be enjoyed whether you win or loose.


The problem with that assertion is that there is a very vocal "competitive" strain of 40k player. GW have done their part in encouraging this with their own tournaments, which from the start have encouraged WAAC. I can understand the frustration of a competitive player in an expensive hobby when the playing field can change so dramatically so quickly. "Balance" is a complicated issue; RNG games are incredibly difficult to "balance" sufficiently and although you could argue that after a period of months a metagame develops that imposes balance on a system, if that metagame is shaken up (by the introduction of a new Codex, core rules set etc) "balance" goes out the window).

Glaringly odd design decisions aside (looking at you, Daemonology), the different kinds of players that exist are always going to rant and rave about what they don't understand. Gameplay designed for another kind of player that is for some reason vastly at odds with what they expect leads to frustration and the need to vent. It;s really easy to give into that impulse on a forum, especially in a forum that has developed a broad consensus of opinion and is home to a lot of the same type of gamer. Competitive players don't want "forge the narrative", they want chess (of sorts) with tanks, lasers and aliens.

Unfortunately, GW are either making or trying to make 40k for a selection of player types, not just the competitive player. They do throw the competitive player a bone now and then though (a Tyranid example would be the introduction of the Hive Crone, to counter the Tyranid weakness to fliers), so they certainly recognize that competitive play exists.

If you've got a spare five minutes, I would recommend giving http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b" target="_new" rel="nofollow">this old MTG article by Mark Rosewater a quick read. It's nicely written, fairly to-the-point and demonstrates how it is more than possible for other types of players to exist in larger numbers than you might think. In that example, Spike will think that the Johnny cards are worthless) and may even complain that the time taken to make them should have been spent on more Spike cards). "Forge the Narrative" is a Johnny mechanic, and is worthless to Spike. Spike might even make fun of how awful it is, because by his reckoning that's exactly what it is; awful. Forging a Narrative doesn't help you win.

(Disclaimer: Yes yes, MTG is very different to 40k, and gamers don't fit snugly into those three profiles. It's just food for thought.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/25 16:40:57


 
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker




Northern Virginia

 Envihon wrote:
Why do you think they have been thrusting that phrase that everyone makes fun of for? "Forge the Narrative"

Because they believe it gives them license to make bad rules and ignore their own fluff in pursuit of my cash.
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness






Only two of those link actually mention daemon : the Kabal of the Talon Cyriix, and the Archangel of Pain. The Mandrakes have one among many rumors that speaks about them having some demonic part.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/26 13:40:31


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Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






Xyptc wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
Why do you think they have been thrusting that phrase that everyone makes fun of for? "Forge the Narrative" They are trying to remind people that this isn't just a game you can play to win but a game to be enjoyed whether you win or loose.


The problem with that assertion is that there is a very vocal "competitive" strain of 40k player. GW have done their part in encouraging this with their own tournaments, which from the start have encouraged WAAC. I can understand the frustration of a competitive player in an expensive hobby when the playing field can change so dramatically so quickly. "Balance" is a complicated issue; RNG games are incredibly difficult to "balance" sufficiently and although you could argue that after a period of months a metagame develops that imposes balance on a system, if that metagame is shaken up (by the introduction of a new Codex, core rules set etc) "balance" goes out the window).

Glaringly odd design decisions aside (looking at you, Daemonology), the different kinds of players that exist are always going to rant and rave about what they don't understand. Gameplay designed for another kind of player that is for some reason vastly at odds with what they expect leads to frustration and the need to vent. It;s really easy to give into that impulse on a forum, especially in a forum that has developed a broad consensus of opinion and is home to a lot of the same type of gamer. Competitive players don't want "forge the narrative", they want chess (of sorts) with tanks, lasers and aliens.

Unfortunately, GW are either making or trying to make 40k for a selection of player types, not just the competitive player. They do throw the competitive player a bone now and then though (a Tyranid example would be the introduction of the Hive Crone, to counter the Tyranid weakness to fliers), so they certainly recognize that competitive play exists.

If you've got a spare five minutes, I would recommend giving http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b" target="_new" rel="nofollow">this old MTG article by Mark Rosewater a quick read. It's nicely written, fairly to-the-point and demonstrates how it is more than possible for other types of players to exist in larger numbers than you might think. In that example, Spike will think that the Johnny cards are worthless) and may even complain that the time taken to make them should have been spent on more Spike cards). "Forge the Narrative" is a Johnny mechanic, and is worthless to Spike. Spike might even make fun of how awful it is, because by his reckoning that's exactly what it is; awful. Forging a Narrative doesn't help you win.

(Disclaimer: Yes yes, MTG is very different to 40k, and gamers don't fit snugly into those three profiles. It's just food for thought.)


I am familiar with the Spike, Johnny and Timmy archetypes and I do understand that but I am still not being as pessimistic on what GW did here as some people. I still think a competitive game still exists because too many local tweaking would have to go on for GW to satisfy the regional differences that happen in all the countries that 40k is sold under. To give an example where regional differences matter, I am going to bring in something I wish I didn't have to but it is the first example I came up with and that is the balancing issues with Starcraft 2. When it came out, Blizzard had to balance the game in two different ways based on regional locality. On the American servers, Terrans were exploited and used to be the dominating army people would play to win but on the Asian servers, the Zerg took this place and Blizzard had to tweak their game twice to fit the regional differences and which exploits each did.

This happens in 40k but imo, on a bigger scale given the fact that 40k isn't an online game, it is a tabletop and although we all connect here on the internet and discuss things, each region plays differently despite it. This was fully illustrated to me when I got orders to my new unit that moved from one region to another so one of the first things I did was seek out a new FLGS. My first impression was that this group plays this game in a far different way the my other one and I liked it because it almost felt like playing the game fresh because I had to adapt to a new group. I don't know how much this affects national tournaments but regardless of the fact, how do you balance with taking in these issues? This isn't an online game where each region is isolated by a server and you can make local changes, GW can't go around making a different rulebook for everyone so what do they do? They make built in modifiers within the rules so that FLGS can take what they know about their regional player base and help modify the rules to balance that regional set. This isn't making up rules as some people think it is, it is making it so that we can work at our own server level.

I know, people have argued constantly that the rulebook should just be set down and be balanced for everyone but that isn't possible for with different regional play styles and here is the other problem, this isn't a video game that does all the calculation for us and then send the data into the company to be analyzed, we have to do it ourselves because we are the computers when we throw the dice and we calculate the mechanics manually which means we must also manually balance the game. It is also the reason for all the arguments people have about what would balance the game, the regional play styles. So why are we faulting GW when they set the modifiers in there themselves? And what is wrong with tournaments going in and making the restrictions they already do except now GW supports it? Imagine if GW changed the game every time some one who can shout loudly over the internet says something is wrong? We would be worse off than we are.

Also, I went over how GW isn't breaking the fluff with some of this but providing ways to tell better narrative campaigns.

 
   
 
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