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Well that hurts assault FMCs A LOT.

Hopefully that will slow down some of the complaining about the three MFC that nids can bring and the WDP from Deamons.

It was an absolutely needed rule change considering you cant shoot FMC's outta the air much anymore.

That and the face that certain armies can summon multiple bloodthirsters.

So is this saying that it has to endure a round of shooting at normal BS if it wants to charge?

 Billagio wrote:
So is this saying that it has to endure a round of shooting at normal BS if it wants to charge?

Or, hope your opponent grounds you in his shooting phase so you can assault him.

Ah, now invisibility seems a lot better in a FMC list doesn't it.

Daemons FMC circus has changed so much from all the rules changes that I am really looking forward to getting some play testing in. I am starting to think a mixture of powers is going to be much more important.

I also think I am going to need more pink horror models...dang, why can't plague bearer gain psyker levels and keep me from buying more models. :_(

 ansacs wrote:
Ah, now invisibility seems a lot better in a FMC list doesn't it.

Daemons FMC circus has changed so much from all the rules changes that I am really looking forward to getting some play testing in. I am starting to think a mixture of powers is going to be much more important.

I also think I am going to need more pink horror models...dang, why can't plague bearer gain psyker levels and keep me from buying more models. :_(

Cause GW loves whats in your wallet more than anything else in the world!

I've got the book with me. It's not the only nerf for FMC. Vector strike is only one hit as most of you have heard already but Smash doesn't half your attacks but turns it into only one attack.

I almost wish for the old grounding rules as now, it's going to much harder to get grounded in your opponents turn with only 1 test per phase but we'll see. All in all the rules are well written and a lot clearer than what I'm used to from GW...

Redwyrmling wrote:
Vector strike is only one hit

Even against Flyers? The saying was d3+1

Against anything flying it's D3 hits. Vector strike hits are at AP2 however now.

A question for those in the know. What is the rules for dive on a FMC now? Does cursed earth from different psykers stack?

I think that landing to get into close combats is going to be less desirable now.

The nurgle DP are extremely cheap malefic casters as they can be taken with wings and a Lv3 for cheap (shrouded partially makes up for the armour). They can dive every turn and loose nothing as they don't need to shoot anymore and can instead throw all their dice at summoning units of flesh hounds to do damage and pink horrors to pump up the dice for more powers. If you take Be'Lakor and the GUO you can put the new invisibility on the GUO and take the biomancy powers for the GUO and make a very difficult to kill MC who does well in melee will help control the board.

Slaanesh FMC already used the lash for a good deal of their damage. Biomancy makes their lash pretty scary or they can take malefic and get a bunch of support they didn't previously have.

I think rather than strengthened or weakened the FMC circus has just shifted so much it is not the same list anymore. With malefic casters summoning in more stuff I think you will see more of a "cascade" effect...a daemonic incursion if you will. FMC might not be a harassment and avoidance list anymore but rather a list that gets stronger the more turns you give it to build until it reaches critical mass and wipes you off the table. Actually pretty fitting in some ways.

 ansacs wrote:
A question for those in the know. What is the rules for dive on a FMC now? Does cursed earth from different psykers stack?

in one of Jervis' videos there is a picture of the Psychic chapter, explaining that same Blessings cannot stack - no 2 Cursed Ground to the same unit, for example. I'd bet Maledictions follow the same pattern

Are those rules not the same as the current ones?

just going to ask in relation to smash, does it STILL leave all your base attacks at AP2?

So wait, you have AP 2 VS, better jink, very tough to ground (and when you are, you can assault your next turn), the only weakness you have gained is against LRaiders and that like every other unit in the game, you have to plan assaults out more than one turn back?

No sympathy. Nids, Daemons, and FMC as a whole will still be very very stout this edition. Save your cries.

Good for shoting FMC , not much fun for melee FMC. If a FMC has to change in to jump infantry and wait a turn to assault , then it is a dead FMC. Unless someone is playing on some sort of crazy labyrinth table.

 Lobukia wrote:
So wait, you have AP 2 VS, better jink, very tough to ground (and when you are, you can assault your next turn), the only weakness you have gained is against LRaiders and that like every other unit in the game, you have to plan assaults out more than one turn back?

No sympathy. Nids, Daemons, and FMC as a whole will still be very very stout this edition. Save your cries.

A trygon as it stands would struggle against a power claw dreadnought and be terribly outmatched by a Contemptor. It has the choice of either hoping for a glance or praying it's one smash does something. If it charges it has better odds, but now the biggest and baddest Tyranid melee monster is pretty well hard countered by melee walkers it towers over.

Bloodthirsters also suffer pretty badly.

The other greater daemons don't really mind because they can buff themselves easily without praying for goodies on the rewards table.

While MCs still remain as good as they were against infantry and MC vs MC combat remains unchanged; MCs without access to armorbane or native S8-10 are now best handled by a dreadnought.

Indeed, you should rejoice. Your melee dreadnought can now take on a Daemon Prince fearlessly as it needs to go down to one attack to hurt your dreadnought at all while the interred space marine relentlessly pulverizes the creature of Chaos with his fists.

Going against a crushing claw Carnifex or a Wraithknight is still likely to end in tears for most walkers however.

Oh, move through cover preserves your assault init too now.

 Lobukia wrote:
Oh, move through cover preserves your assault init too now.

Banshees and Bloodletters are slightly less god awful now! Huzzah!

But doesn't that mean that assault grenades and the likes of the Skull Cannon need to be changed?

 Kain wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
So wait, you have AP 2 VS, better jink, very tough to ground (and when you are, you can assault your next turn), the only weakness you have gained is against LRaiders and that like every other unit in the game, you have to plan assaults out more than one turn back?

No sympathy. Nids, Daemons, and FMC as a whole will still be very very stout this edition. Save your cries.

A trygon as it stands would struggle against a power claw dreadnought and be terribly outmatched by a Contemptor. It has the choice of either hoping for a glance or praying it's one smash does something. If it charges it has better odds, but now the biggest and baddest Tyranid melee monster is pretty well hard countered by melee walkers it towers over.

Bloodthirsters also suffer pretty badly.

The other greater daemons don't really mind because they can buff themselves easily without praying for goodies on the rewards table.

While MCs still remain as good as they were against infantry and MC vs MC combat remains unchanged; MCs without access to armorbane or native S8-10 are now best handled by a dreadnought.

Indeed, you should rejoice. Your melee dreadnought can now take on a Daemon Prince fearlessly as it needs to go down to one attack to hurt your dreadnought at all while the interred space marine relentlessly pulverizes the creature of Chaos with his fists.

Going against a crushing claw Carnifex or a Wraithknight is still likely to end in tears for most walkers however.

Depends on the DP though, a CSM one with BM is at str 8 with lots of swings. given its chance on rolling powers it still has the usual possibilities to roll up being iron arm, warp speed etc, and the new invisibility.... only hitting it on 6's... chances are it will be around for a while, IF CSM get prescience it will be even nastier tbh, only missing on 2's bla bla. BUT haha you have to GET to combat, and i hate to say it i dont like the idea of a T5 model without EW at 300+ pts sitting 12" out and waiting to be shot to pieces..

edit: though without EW.... dreads are still STR10 on melee attacks yeah, so ID so lame... soo sooo lame..

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
So wait, you have AP 2 VS, better jink, very tough to ground (and when you are, you can assault your next turn), the only weakness you have gained is against LRaiders and that like every other unit in the game, you have to plan assaults out more than one turn back?

No sympathy. Nids, Daemons, and FMC as a whole will still be very very stout this edition. Save your cries.

A trygon as it stands would struggle against a power claw dreadnought and be terribly outmatched by a Contemptor. It has the choice of either hoping for a glance or praying it's one smash does something. If it charges it has better odds, but now the biggest and baddest Tyranid melee monster is pretty well hard countered by melee walkers it towers over.

Bloodthirsters also suffer pretty badly.

The other greater daemons don't really mind because they can buff themselves easily without praying for goodies on the rewards table.

While MCs still remain as good as they were against infantry and MC vs MC combat remains unchanged; MCs without access to armorbane or native S8-10 are now best handled by a dreadnought.

Indeed, you should rejoice. Your melee dreadnought can now take on a Daemon Prince fearlessly as it needs to go down to one attack to hurt your dreadnought at all while the interred space marine relentlessly pulverizes the creature of Chaos with his fists.

Going against a crushing claw Carnifex or a Wraithknight is still likely to end in tears for most walkers however.

Depends on the DP though, a CSM one with BM is at str 8 with lots of swings. given its chance on rolling powers it still has the usual possibilities to roll up being iron arm, warp speed etc, and the new invisibility.... only hitting it on 6's... chances are it will be around for a while, IF CSM get prescience it will be even nastier tbh, only missing on 2's bla bla. BUT haha you have to GET to combat, and i hate to say it i dont like the idea of a T5 model without EW at 300+ pts sitting 12" out and waiting to be shot to pieces..

edit: though without EW.... dreads are still STR10 on melee attacks yeah, so ID so lame... soo sooo lame..

Relying on Psychic powers when interfering with them is easier than ever may not be the best idea.

Well, assault based flying MCs have it a bit harder.

The enemy will have one turn to shoot it before it can charge.

This was a no-brainer in the 6th ed. I second this rule change.

 Kain wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
So wait, you have AP 2 VS, better jink, very tough to ground (and when you are, you can assault your next turn), the only weakness you have gained is against LRaiders and that like every other unit in the game, you have to plan assaults out more than one turn back?

No sympathy. Nids, Daemons, and FMC as a whole will still be very very stout this edition. Save your cries.

A trygon as it stands would struggle against a power claw dreadnought and be terribly outmatched by a Contemptor. It has the choice of either hoping for a glance or praying it's one smash does something. If it charges it has better odds, but now the biggest and baddest Tyranid melee monster is pretty well hard countered by melee walkers it towers over.

Bloodthirsters also suffer pretty badly.

The other greater daemons don't really mind because they can buff themselves easily without praying for goodies on the rewards table.

While MCs still remain as good as they were against infantry and MC vs MC combat remains unchanged; MCs without access to armorbane or native S8-10 are now best handled by a dreadnought.

Indeed, you should rejoice. Your melee dreadnought can now take on a Daemon Prince fearlessly as it needs to go down to one attack to hurt your dreadnought at all while the interred space marine relentlessly pulverizes the creature of Chaos with his fists.

Going against a crushing claw Carnifex or a Wraithknight is still likely to end in tears for most walkers however.

Depends on the DP though, a CSM one with BM is at str 8 with lots of swings. given its chance on rolling powers it still has the usual possibilities to roll up being iron arm, warp speed etc, and the new invisibility.... only hitting it on 6's... chances are it will be around for a while, IF CSM get prescience it will be even nastier tbh, only missing on 2's bla bla. BUT haha you have to GET to combat, and i hate to say it i dont like the idea of a T5 model without EW at 300+ pts sitting 12" out and waiting to be shot to pieces..

edit: though without EW.... dreads are still STR10 on melee attacks yeah, so ID so lame... soo sooo lame..

Relying on Psychic powers when interfering with them is easier than ever may not be the best idea.

Agree absolutely, i dont want to have to rely on them at all. it would and will be terrible, they could have just made daemon include EW again, but apparently didnt, kind of them no? so osme of these powers will save DP from ID buuut well, gonna need it because they are going to get shot at even more

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
Are those rules not the same as the current ones?

I thought the same thing, they're pretty similar. The crucial change is that Flying Monstrous Creatures can no longer assault on the same turn they switch from flying to gliding, which is a huge game changer. One thing that has made Daemons (as well as Nids, to a lesser extent) a colossal pain in the rear to fight against is that they could fly up 36", sit around for a turn being extremely difficult to take down (because only snapshots can hit them, obviously), then drop down to glide mode on their turn and assault whatever's in front of them. Oh, and that's after they get a 12" jump move, as well.

I'm really pleased with this change, because it will make facing Daemons so much more manageable.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
So wait, you have AP 2 VS, better jink, very tough to ground (and when you are, you can assault your next turn), the only weakness you have gained is against LRaiders and that like every other unit in the game, you have to plan assaults out more than one turn back?

No sympathy. Nids, Daemons, and FMC as a whole will still be very very stout this edition. Save your cries.

A trygon as it stands would struggle against a power claw dreadnought and be terribly outmatched by a Contemptor. It has the choice of either hoping for a glance or praying it's one smash does something. If it charges it has better odds, but now the biggest and baddest Tyranid melee monster is pretty well hard countered by melee walkers it towers over.

Bloodthirsters also suffer pretty badly.

The other greater daemons don't really mind because they can buff themselves easily without praying for goodies on the rewards table.

While MCs still remain as good as they were against infantry and MC vs MC combat remains unchanged; MCs without access to armorbane or native S8-10 are now best handled by a dreadnought.

Indeed, you should rejoice. Your melee dreadnought can now take on a Daemon Prince fearlessly as it needs to go down to one attack to hurt your dreadnought at all while the interred space marine relentlessly pulverizes the creature of Chaos with his fists.

Going against a crushing claw Carnifex or a Wraithknight is still likely to end in tears for most walkers however.

Depends on the DP though, a CSM one with BM is at str 8 with lots of swings. given its chance on rolling powers it still has the usual possibilities to roll up being iron arm, warp speed etc, and the new invisibility.... only hitting it on 6's... chances are it will be around for a while, IF CSM get prescience it will be even nastier tbh, only missing on 2's bla bla. BUT haha you have to GET to combat, and i hate to say it i dont like the idea of a T5 model without EW at 300+ pts sitting 12" out and waiting to be shot to pieces..

edit: though without EW.... dreads are still STR10 on melee attacks yeah, so ID so lame... soo sooo lame..

Relying on Psychic powers when interfering with them is easier than ever may not be the best idea.

Agree absolutely, i dont want to have to rely on them at all. it would and will be terrible, they could have just made daemon include EW again, but apparently didnt, kind of them no? so osme of these powers will save DP from ID buuut well, gonna need it because they are going to get shot at even more

GW seems very reluctant to give out EW these days given that the Tyranids have absolutely no access to it period and it was stripped away as a native rule from all Daemons.

Yeah and now we have the power for +2 Str, thats gonna make every chump with a half decent statline, PF/PK, etc str 10.. just what we need haha.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
Yeah and now we have the power for +2 Str, thats gonna make every chump with a half decent statline, PF/PK, etc str 10.. just what we need haha.

I don't get why the Swarmlord can't have Eternal Warrior but any random chump of a Space Marine with a fancy shield can.

Or why he had to lose his forced rerolls to successful invulnerable saves in assault.

Or why he can't have a 5++ invulnerable save against shooting when much cheaper daemons get that for free.

Or why he can't actually be powerful enough to remotely justify the 285 point investment (and even more points for the basically mandatory Tyrant guard).

Does Move Through Cover preserve your initiative?

 Kain wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
Yeah and now we have the power for +2 Str, thats gonna make every chump with a half decent statline, PF/PK, etc str 10.. just what we need haha.

I don't get why the Swarmlord can't have Eternal Warrior but any random chump of a Space Marine with a fancy shield can.

Or why he had to lose his forced rerolls to successful invulnerable saves in assault.

Or why he can't have a 5++ invulnerable save against shooting when much cheaper daemons get that for free.

Or why he can't actually be powerful enough to remotely justify the 285 point investment (and even more points for the basically mandatory Tyrant guard).

i agree, always liked swarmy, now.... hes pretty pricey
the question will be, is wings a worthy points investment for a DP. as a 340pt monster... yeaaah... you want them alive as long as possible.. but as a beatstick if they cant assault the turn they land... lame.