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 Locclo wrote:

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
Are those rules not the same as the current ones?

I thought the same thing, they're pretty similar. The crucial change is that Flying Monstrous Creatures can no longer assault on the same turn they switch from flying to gliding, which is a huge game changer. One thing that has made Daemons (as well as Nids, to a lesser extent) a colossal pain in the rear to fight against is that they could fly up 36", sit around for a turn being extremely difficult to take down (because only snapshots can hit them, obviously), then drop down to glide mode on their turn and assault whatever's in front of them. Oh, and that's after they get a 12" jump move, as well.

I'm really pleased with this change, because it will make facing Daemons so much more manageable.

As a Daemons player who's never won a game, I can tell you they were already pretty "manageable." I'm kind of annoyed that the models I've spent big money and dozens of hours on are now kind of useless.

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:

 Locclo wrote:

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
Are those rules not the same as the current ones?

I thought the same thing, they're pretty similar. The crucial change is that Flying Monstrous Creatures can no longer assault on the same turn they switch from flying to gliding, which is a huge game changer. One thing that has made Daemons (as well as Nids, to a lesser extent) a colossal pain in the rear to fight against is that they could fly up 36", sit around for a turn being extremely difficult to take down (because only snapshots can hit them, obviously), then drop down to glide mode on their turn and assault whatever's in front of them. Oh, and that's after they get a 12" jump move, as well.

I'm really pleased with this change, because it will make facing Daemons so much more manageable.

As a Daemons player who's never won a game, I can tell you they were already pretty "manageable." I'm kind of annoyed that the models I've spent big money and dozens of hours on are now kind of useless.

Maybe I'm just bad at fighting them, then. I think my best game against Daemons was when I pulled off a draw with a last-turn contest, and I had a single unit of Wraithguard left on the board (compared to three big daemons and a ton of assorted troops). Usually I just get stomped by flying daemons that I can barely hit, much less wound before they can assault my lines.

 Locclo wrote:

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:

 Locclo wrote:

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
Are those rules not the same as the current ones?

I thought the same thing, they're pretty similar. The crucial change is that Flying Monstrous Creatures can no longer assault on the same turn they switch from flying to gliding, which is a huge game changer. One thing that has made Daemons (as well as Nids, to a lesser extent) a colossal pain in the rear to fight against is that they could fly up 36", sit around for a turn being extremely difficult to take down (because only snapshots can hit them, obviously), then drop down to glide mode on their turn and assault whatever's in front of them. Oh, and that's after they get a 12" jump move, as well.

I'm really pleased with this change, because it will make facing Daemons so much more manageable.

As a Daemons player who's never won a game, I can tell you they were already pretty "manageable." I'm kind of annoyed that the models I've spent big money and dozens of hours on are now kind of useless.

Maybe I'm just bad at fighting them, then. I think my best game against Daemons was when I pulled off a draw with a last-turn contest, and I had a single unit of Wraithguard left on the board (compared to three big daemons and a ton of assorted troops). Usually I just get stomped by flying daemons that I can barely hit, much less wound before they can assault my lines.

FMCs are pretty mean and they will be.

Deployment, movement, and target saturation will be key.

What will be the best way to run them now?

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
What will be the best way to run them now?

Flying gun boats that can occasionally get in an extra hit, and are a little weaker against other fliers (the new damage chart means their chance of one shotting a vehicle on a pen is exactly the same, but they lost the +1 attack to their D3) than before.

Basically never touch the ground if you can help it.

 Kain wrote:

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
What will be the best way to run them now?

Flying gun boats that can occasionally get in an extra hit, and are a little weaker against other fliers (the new damage chart means their chance of one shotting a vehicle on a pen is exactly the same, but they lost the +1 attack to their D3) than before.

Basically never touch the ground if you can help it.

Flying gun boats is not what Daemon players used to play.

The flying circus seems to be dead and gone.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
What will be the best way to run them now?

Flying gun boats that can occasionally get in an extra hit, and are a little weaker against other fliers (the new damage chart means their chance of one shotting a vehicle on a pen is exactly the same, but they lost the +1 attack to their D3) than before.

Basically never touch the ground if you can help it.

Flying gun boats is not what Daemon players used to play.

The flying circus seems to be dead and gone.

Daemons have plenty of psychic shooting powers (flickering fire in particular will be lulzy), and Tyranids have plenty of shooting from their FMCs.

I don't have any flying guns, I guess I'll be stuck using vector strikes.

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I don't have any flying guns, I guess I'll be stuck using vector strikes.

Enjoy the sight of bloodthirsters futilely swinging away at Maulerfiends they can't hurt.

Daemons have plenty of psychic shooting powers (flickering fire in particular will be lulzy), and Tyranids have plenty of shooting from their FMCs.

I think that this kind of shooting won't win you the game.

actually most FMC players that were very successful were playing them as flying gun boats/psykers. Charging was actually pretty rare, but a nice option to have.

SO I see this as just one more nerf to the assault where GW thinks that you need to get shot at least twice before you are able to assault anything.

I agree with the change to grounding this was needed. But they should have just left well enough alone.

The bigger nerf to FMC buiilds is more the everything scores rumors, and that Flying things cannot score/contest without landing. FMC builds functioned mostly on a kill troops, keep troops alive, contest style. That won't be so easy if everything in an opponents army now scores.

As a daemons player, I feel like our MC's did indeed get shafted pretty hard there.

On the one hand, I think flying circus was indeed a little too powerful for many armies to deal with; space marines especially.

The nerf to FMC assault has certainly gone quite a ways to fix that problem, but it was too much, imo. Overall, this is yet another example of something receiving an unnecessary nerf as a direct result of GW getting greedy and making it too readily available. Vehicles are the precursor to this; GW heard the cries of armor spam being a huge problem in 5th, so they added in hull-points. The way they should have balanced armor spam would have been to simply lessen the amount of armor you can field. Get rid of squadrons, limit tanks to no more than ~3 in a list, maybe a few more with IG. But instead we got HP's, so now our "tanks" have paper mache' armor.

Similarly, the way to balance FMC's would have been to limit the amount of them you can take. What we habe now has basically ensured that most FMC's will get wiped off the board theturn they land.

That said, I'm not ready to give up on FMC's yet. With 3+ armor or a 3++, a FMC can survive a turn of shooting from a marine squad or two, and units with more firepower than marines tend to have less durability, meaning you can reliably just shoot them to death (flickering fire goes ham on Fire Warriors, for example).

We'll see.

EDIT- That's a good point as well. As a Daemons player, I rarely assault with my FMC's anyway, reserving that tactic for ganking HQ units and vehicles with smash. Beyond that, I generally keep them in the air and troll my opponent with them. Daemons have other tools for straight anti-infantry.

I'm not too worried about the changes myself with my Daemon Prince, I've only ever assaulted with him once.

Then again, I play Slaanesh so I have access to gun(whip)boat-princes. (Yay 2D6 Str 6 attacks!)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'm not too worried about the changes myself with my Daemon Prince, I've only ever assaulted with him once.

Then again, I play Slaanesh so I have access to gun(whip)boat-princes. (Yay 2D6 Str 6 attacks!)

In fact, lash DPs are only going to get better with iron arm being a flat +3S now... Seriously, who was assaulting with their FMCs anyway? The last place I want any of my FMCs is tied up in combat!

Ok now I'm a bit confused, is it confirmed that shooting at FMC is -2 to BS or not?

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'm not too worried about the changes myself with my Daemon Prince, I've only ever assaulted with him once.

Then again, I play Slaanesh so I have access to gun(whip)boat-princes. (Yay 2D6 Str 6 attacks!)

In fact, lash DPs are only going to get better with iron arm being a flat +3S now... Seriously, who was assaulting with their FMCs anyway? The last place I want any of my FMCs is tied up in combat!

my CSM daemon prince with the Black Mace would rather be in CC than doing anything else thanks.........

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'm not too worried about the changes myself with my Daemon Prince, I've only ever assaulted with him once.

Then again, I play Slaanesh so I have access to gun(whip)boat-princes. (Yay 2D6 Str 6 attacks!)

In fact, lash DPs are only going to get better with iron arm being a flat +3S now... Seriously, who was assaulting with their FMCs anyway? The last place I want any of my FMCs is tied up in combat!

Indeed, precious FMCs and stupid Marines.

Hmmm... Be'Lakor looks real nice right about now.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
Ok now I'm a bit confused, is it confirmed that shooting at FMC is -2 to BS or not?

Snap Firing is the same as it is under the 6th edition rulset.

As a whole, FMCs got a lot less fragile and a lot less dangerous.

 rabidguineapig wrote:
Hmmm... Be'Lakor looks real nice right about now.

On one hand his swoop+glide trick doesn't work that well anymore and he can't vector strike half as well.

On the other hand invisibility is substantially more ridiculous so he doesn't care if he's gliding anyway.

On the foot casting's much harder and more dangerous now, especially for high warp charge powers.

Good old GW, giving with one hand and taking with the other. My Lord of Change will be happily flying around and casting lightning on people, my CSM Daemon Prince will not be so happy.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Good old GW, giving with one hand and taking with the other. My Lord of Change will be happily flying around and casting lightning on people, my CSM Daemon Prince will not be so happy.

What would you expect?

Changing rules forth and back was always a vital part of a new edition.

It's a bit annoying really. It's almost as if they can't get balance properly and they always over do it. Like trying to fly a flight simulator without using a joystick and trying to use the keypad instead.

 welshhoppo wrote:
It's a bit annoying really. It's almost as if they can't get balance properly and they always over do it. Like trying to fly a flight simulator without using a joystick and trying to use the keypad instead.

I'd be sure that in the next release you could use the joystick again.

Balancing issues. The flying circus is a viable army in the 6th ed, but it will not be in the 7th.

Okay. Before this, I was considering getting 7th.



Nope.

There's a reason I have a daemon prince. It is to smash face.

Jumping around isn't all that bad. It is still a 12 inch movement. It is a bit annoying that they can't charge the turn after flying around. Do they drop their sandwiches as they land or something?

 Kain wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:


edit: though without EW.... dreads are still STR10 on melee attacks yeah, so ID so lame... soo sooo lame..

Relying on Psychic powers when interfering with them is easier than ever may not be the best idea.

Agree absolutely, i dont want to have to rely on them at all. it would and will be terrible, they could have just made daemon include EW again, but apparently didnt, kind of them no? so osme of these powers will save DP from ID buuut well, gonna need it because they are going to get shot at even more

GW seems very reluctant to give out EW these days given that the Tyranids have absolutely no access to it period and it was stripped away as a native rule from all Daemons.

but of course every chaptermaster is running around with a 3++ and EW, because F xenos.

 Kain wrote:

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I don't have any flying guns, I guess I'll be stuck using vector strikes.

Enjoy the sight of bloodthirsters futilely swinging away at Maulerfiends they can't hurt.

I don't get the joke.

Re: people asking who uses FMCs in assault, I do. My Daemon Prince and my Bloodthirster don't have any ranged weapons unless they get lucky on the Daemonic Rewards table.

Smash is now one attack at double strength.

Bloodthirster will barely scratch the paint on AV12 now.

Gods help the thirster against any av13 walker 1 smash that 1/3of the time will miss to even stand a chance to hurt it yeaa god of battle with a rubber axe.