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Hollismason wrote:
Most Efficient Power Dice to Flickering Fire and Summoning Ratio plus actual Threat
HQ
Herald Of Tzeentch (LvL 3 , Exalted Locus of Conjuration)
Herald of Tzeentch ( Lvl 3, Exalted Locus of Conjuration)
Herald of Tzeentch ( LvL 3, Grimiore)
Troops
12 Pink Horrors
12 Pink Horrors
17 Pink Horrors
H. Support
Soul Grinder (Tzeentch, Phlegm)


HQ
Herald Of Tzeentch (LvL 3 )
Herald of Tzeentch ( Lvl 3)
Herald of Tzeentch ( LvL 3)
Troops
12 Pink Horrors
12 Pink Horrors
17 Pink Horrors
H. Support
Soul Grinder (Tzeentch, Phlegm)
Soul Grinder (Tzeentch, Phlegm)



Fortification
Bastion w/ Void Shield

Total 1993

Total Power Dice = 32 + D6
Total Flicker Fire = 12 : Amount needed to fire all 12 Flicker Fire 46 :
Total Possible amount : 8D6 ST 6 @ BS4 , 40 D6 ST5 @ BS3
Total Summons = 12 ( A note you don't have to actually take all of the summons you can roll and if you get a witchfire power, take the summons)
Total Actual Rolls on Daemonology = 18 ( You have to take the Primary Power of your God you get automatically so if you want to have summons you have to replace a spell you roll, which will of course be any of the Witchfire)
Oh and it has SoulGrinders.

I don't want rain on your parade, as I have a similar list, BUT I do believe it it slightly illegal. Only one of the Combined Arms Detachments can be your primary detachment, and only in primary detachments can you take 1-4 Heralds per HQ slot.

Yeah I have a similar list but I wanted to use Skaven models and the summoning was just more rats joining the fray. As mentioned only primary can be 1-4

That's actually not true, Chaos Daemon book up to 4 Heralds can be chosen as a single HQ choice there's nothing in the FOC chart that restricts Heralds being taken as 4 to a HQ. I don't know where you are getting that information. Your primary detachment can be multiple FOCs as long as you meet the requirement of 1 HQ and 2 Troops. I double checked this with other threads and multiple places.

The list is legit. I'm not Allying I' taking two FOCs which is allowed now. You can take 3 if you wanted to. It'swhen you get in multiple factions that the combined arms comes into play.

Your going to have a sh*t load of perils if you roll on the deamon summing table, expect every psycher summoning deamons to be dead by turn 2.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Your going to have a sh*t load of perils if you roll on the deamon summing table, expect every psycher summoning deamons to be dead by turn 2.

Yeah this isn't true I don't know why people think this. First off it's 1 wound. 2nd Perils is literally nothing for Brotherhood of Psykers.

Here is a Battle Report from Frontline on a army similar and you can watch how effective Perils is.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596622.page


It literally has no affect on the game whatsoever.

Let my specify, all your heralds summuning deamons will peril. With the 6 dice minimum for a high chance of passing the test needed to summon a unit, you have an extremely high chance of periling (sense any double is perils for deamonolgy). Thats one wound. Next turn, same thing. Now your heralds are dead.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Let my specify, all your heralds summuning deamons will peril. With the 6 dice minimum for a high chance of passing the test needed to summon a unit, you have an extremely high chance of periling (sense any double is perils for deamonolgy). Thats one wound. Next turn, same thing. Now your heralds are dead.

Yeah that's statistically just wrong, here is a handy chart.

Number of dice rolled) Chance to peril with 2 or more 6s

1) 0.000
2) 0.028
3) 0.074
4) 0.132
5) 0.196
6) 0.263
7) 0.330
8) 0.395
9) 0.457
10) 0.515

Now here is the thing

50% of the Perils chart requires a Leadership check or suffer a wound , so that's a further negation of the Perils chart.

So yeah your just wrong.

Hollismason wrote:
That's actually not true, Chaos Daemon book up to 4 Heralds can be chosen as a single HQ choice there's nothing in the FOC chart that restricts Heralds being taken as 4 to a HQ. I don't know where you are getting that information. Your primary detachment can be multiple FOCs as long as you meet the requirement of 1 HQ and 2 Troops. I double checked this with other threads and multiple places.

The list is legit. I'm not Allying I' taking two FOCs which is allowed now. You can take 3 if you wanted to. It'swhen you get in multiple factions that the combined arms comes into play.

It would help if you actually read the codex you're playing a list out of because only primary detachments can include up to four Heralds of CHaos for a single HQ slot. It doesn't really matter though because this is a bad list that gets shot off the board after summoning a few token daemons.

The New FOC changes how that is being done, as Primary Detachment is now done differently. It's literally changed completely. Your Primary Detachment can include more than one FOC, which satisfies the requirement.

And even if it didn't you can still Divide it up to equal 3 FOCs and taking 1 herald for each HQ selection. So your point all of them are moot.

Please refer to the previous battle report that has actual video evidence beyond anecdotal before you come in here talking trash.

Hollismason wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Let my specify, all your heralds summuning deamons will peril. With the 6 dice minimum for a high chance of passing the test needed to summon a unit, you have an extremely high chance of periling (sense any double is perils for deamonolgy). Thats one wound. Next turn, same thing. Now your heralds are dead.

Yeah that's statistically just wrong, here is a handy chart.

Number of dice rolled) Chance to peril with 2 or more 6s

1) 0.000
2) 0.028
3) 0.074
4) 0.132
5) 0.196
6) 0.263
7) 0.330
8) 0.395
9) 0.457
10) 0.515

Now here is the thing

50% of the Perils chart requires a Leadership check or suffer a wound , so that's a further negation of the Perils chart.

So yeah your just wrong.

Now heres the thing. If you roll peril on any DOUBLE not just 6s. And your leadership isnt the best. At all. In fact, nearly every time you roll your going to peril if your trying to summon anything warp charge 3.
So do the math again.
Not as wrong as you think.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Let my specify, all your heralds summuning deamons will peril. With the 6 dice minimum for a high chance of passing the test needed to summon a unit, you have an extremely high chance of periling (sense any double is perils for deamonolgy). Thats one wound. Next turn, same thing. Now your heralds are dead.

Yeah that's statistically just wrong, here is a handy chart.

Number of dice rolled) Chance to peril with 2 or more 6s

1) 0.000
2) 0.028
3) 0.074
4) 0.132
5) 0.196
6) 0.263
7) 0.330
8) 0.395
9) 0.457
10) 0.515

Now here is the thing

50% of the Perils chart requires a Leadership check or suffer a wound , so that's a further negation of the Perils chart.

So yeah your just wrong.

Now heres the thing. If you roll peril on any DOUBLE not just 6s. And your leadership isnt the best. At all. In fact, nearly every time you roll your going to peril if your trying to summon anything warp charge 3.
So do the math again.
Not as wrong as you think.

And again you are wrong Daemons don't have that rule for Malefic everyone else does. Also Peril of the Warp only affects 1 model in a Pyschic Brother.

Also and I expect this to be in the fact Tzeentch get's +3 to it's leadership for spell purposes in the old rules, so don't be surprised at all to seem the get something in the new FAQ in regards ot this bonus that is now nonexistant.

Did not see that. Then, you are right.

Ninja'd.

Hollismason wrote:

I'm still actually working on the list but one of the "unintended" side effects of this army is that Flickering Fire, which as it works now doesn't really work and no one understand it is kind of broken right now.

Why? Because its a witchfire power and if you succeed over the total number of successes you get precision shots with it.

Incorrect, Flickering Fire is just a Witchfire, not a Focused Witchfire. You simply roll to hit with whatever number of shots you get for however Warp Charge you were going for.

Hollismason wrote:
All told the army can easily cast Flickering fire Level 4 6 Times and Level 3 Twice for a total of 33 D6 ST5 shots which if you just average is like 99 ST5 shots.

The Level 4 can be shot by a BS 4 model

Flickering Fire is Warp Charge 1-3, there is no such thing as 'Level 4' for Flickering Fire


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
The New FOC changes how that is being done, as Primary Detachment is now done differently. It's literally changed completely. Your Primary Detachment can include more than one FOC, which satisfies the requirement.

And even if it didn't you can still Divide it up to equal 3 FOCs and taking 1 herald for each HQ selection. So your point all of them are moot.

Please refer to the previous battle report that has actual video evidence beyond anecdotal before you come in here talking trash.

He is right, your primary detachment is the FOC that has your warlord. Other FOCs that you add are not your primary detachments. Or at least that's how I read it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
You have to cast Cursed Earth first though, as it stops deep strike.

Cursed Earth (in addition to boosting Invul saves for Daemons), only allows friendly Daemons to Deep Strike without scatter within 12" of the caster. It does nothing else to mess with Deep Strike.

Yes that first point is correct. The Level 4 is just in reference to the Dice rolled. A probably should have reworded the last to say so you do not scatter on deep strike.

Also I have to rewrite the list AGAIN, because the first is actually incorrect.

Hollismason wrote:
The New FOC changes how that is being done, as Primary Detachment is now done differently. It's literally changed completely. Your Primary Detachment can include more than one FOC, which satisfies the requirement.

And even if it didn't you can still Divide it up to equal 3 FOCs and taking 1 herald for each HQ selection. So your point all of them are moot.

Please refer to the previous battle report that has actual video evidence beyond anecdotal before you come in here talking trash.

....it would seem you have not read the new rules very carefully...
In Battle-Forged armies, the Primary Detachment is a single detachment (which includes your Warlord).
In Unbound armies, the Primary Detachment is comprised of all models that come from the same codex your Warlord comes from.
You certainly cannot count multiple Detachments as a single Primary detachment.

At to including all those Heralds....
The Daemon book quite clearly and simply states that "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds...." Heralds are only for the Primary detachment, as no permission is given to take them in any other type of detachment.

There's no permission to take Heralds at all unless Daemons is your Primary Detachment. Once you are Battle-Forged, and Daemons is your Primary, you may only ever take a maximum of four Heralds, since you may only have one Primary Detachment, and you are limited to four Heralds per Primary Detachment.

If you go Unbound...then you just need a Daemon model as an HQ, which makes Daemons your Primary, which means you may take up to four Heralds. STILL no permission to take more than four Heralds.

So four Heralds is the maximum amount you are ever legally allowed to include in an army.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The New FOC changes how that is being done, as Primary Detachment is now done differently. It's literally changed completely. Your Primary Detachment can include more than one FOC, which satisfies the requirement.

And even if it didn't you can still Divide it up to equal 3 FOCs and taking 1 herald for each HQ selection. So your point all of them are moot.

Please refer to the previous battle report that has actual video evidence beyond anecdotal before you come in here talking trash.

....it would seem you have not read the new rules very carefully...
In Battle-Forged armies, the Primary Detachment is a single detachment (which includes your Warlord).
In Unbound armies, the Primary Detachment is comprised of all models that come from the same codex your Warlord comes from.
You certainly cannot count multiple Detachments as a single Primary detachment.

At to including all those Heralds....
The Daemon book quite clearly and simply states that "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds...." Heralds are only for the Primary detachment, as no permission is given to take them in any other type of detachment.

There's no permission to take Heralds at all unless Daemons is your Primary Detachment. Once you are Battle-Forged, and Daemons is your Primary, you may only ever take a maximum of four Heralds, since you may only have one Primary Detachment, and you are limited to four Heralds per Primary Detachment.

If you go Unbound...then you just need a Daemon model as an HQ, which makes Daemons your Primary, which means you may take up to four Heralds. STILL no permission to take more than four Heralds.

So four Heralds is the maximum amount you are ever legally allowed to include in an army.

Yes I know I fixed the list, just getting used to the FOC, I pointed it out in that other thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/511245.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/577699.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/522288.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/511245.page

Please don't crap on my floor thanks.

Those are all threads stating your original idea was valid and Elric interpretation is not correct.

Even his thread in you make the call its trumped by everyone in there.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596803.page

 Tyrius wrote:
Those are all threads stating your original idea was valid and Elric interpretation is not correct.

Even his thread in you make the call its trumped by everyone in there.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596803.page

Dear Sir,
I retract my previous statement.

Sincerely
Hollismason

ajsnips44 wrote:
The era of banned lists in a competitive environment has begun.

I like the fact that Daemons players are already building the list for the TO's to band. The power charge will be toned down and the Daemon codex will be released with changes or FAQed to fix this slightly.

 rcm2216 wrote:

ajsnips44 wrote:
The era of banned lists in a competitive environment has begun.

I like the fact that Daemons players are already building the list for the TO's to band. The power charge will be toned down and the Daemon codex will be released with changes or FAQed to fix this slightly.

I don't know about TO's banning this... players should consider the possibility of facing something of this nature and be prepared to face this or a toned down version within Chaos Daemons. The army lists which maximize summoning Daemons will easily saturate a table with models, though this is considered within the Daemon army's essence. If a player inflicts enough casualties on the squads to force Instability tests, they will potentially be driven back to the Warp (or get more?) and fighting over objectives will be at least exciting. I would much rather fight in combat over an objective than be blasted away by enemy ordnance.

I'm curious if anyone would use a Crimson Slaughter army using the relic to can turn your character essentially into a Possessed CSM. I need to revisit the book, though if a Sorcerer could take that and select from the Malefic table, a Chaos army would have access to Possessed CSMs as Troops and summon additional Daemons...

Hard counter.

Khan
Librarian on a bike lvl2
12 bike squads each 5 strong with 2 grav and a combi grav.

Turn 1 the list has a potential 108 grav gun shots to immobolizethe soul grinders. It should take an average of 9 shots per soul grinder or 4 squads worth. Once immobolized soul grinders can be ignored.

The deamon factory has enough hard counters that I don't see it getting banned.

That leaves 8 squads to shoot pink horrors with 80 tl bolter shots, about 71 hits, 48 wounds and close range.

Focus all dispell dice on cursed earth landing them on 5+ because of psychic hood.

Turn 2 assault with 12 bike squads and 2 hq.

 Tyrius wrote:
Those are all threads stating your original idea was valid and Elric interpretation is not correct.

Even his thread in you make the call its trumped by everyone in there.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596803.page

Not exactly. Setting aside his contention that you simply cannot take Heralds in anything but your primary detachment, there is still a very specific restriction in the Daemon codex that limits the 1-4 Heralds for a single HQ to your primary detachment, which means you only get to do that once in a BF list, regardless of points or multiple FOCs.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Hard counter.

Khan
Librarian on a bike lvl2
12 bike squads each 5 strong with 2 grav and a combi grav.

Turn 1 the list has a potential 108 grav gun shots to immobolizethe soul grinders. It should take an average of 9 shots per soul grinder or 4 squads worth. Once immobolized soul grinders can be ignored.

The deamon factory has enough hard counters that I don't see it getting banned.

That leaves 8 squads to shoot pink horrors with 80 tl bolter shots, about 71 hits, 48 wounds and close range.

Focus all dispell dice on cursed earth landing them on 5+ because of psychic hood.

Turn 2 assault with 12 bike squads and 2 hq.

Or you could just ignore all of that and blast the crap out of the Heralds with Thunderfire cannons. It's not a invincible army by any means. Also your supposing that they go first, get within range, i do not go first , and set up perfectly so you can shoot everything at me.

Also you need natural 6s to dispel Cursed Earth, and there will most likely be multiple cursed earths. What is the plan for Khan killing a 2+ invulnerable Reroll 1s Soul Grinder?

Because if they go first the first thing they do is use their Possessios to turn into Bloodthirsters.


To reliably dispel a armies Warp Charge succesfully 3 Power you need to expend 18 Warp Charge.

Hollismason wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Hard counter.

Khan
Librarian on a bike lvl2
12 bike squads each 5 strong with 2 grav and a combi grav.

Turn 1 the list has a potential 108 grav gun shots to immobolizethe soul grinders. It should take an average of 9 shots per soul grinder or 4 squads worth. Once immobolized soul grinders can be ignored.

The deamon factory has enough hard counters that I don't see it getting banned.

That leaves 8 squads to shoot pink horrors with 80 tl bolter shots, about 71 hits, 48 wounds and close range.

Focus all dispell dice on cursed earth landing them on 5+ because of psychic hood.

Turn 2 assault with 12 bike squads and 2 hq.

Or you could just ignore all of that and blast the crap out of the Heralds with Thunderfire cannons. It's not a invincible army by any means. Also your supposing that they go first, get within range, i do not go first , and set up perfectly so you can shoot everything at me.

Also you need natural 6s to dispel Cursed Earth, and there will most likely be multiple cursed earths. What is the plan for Khan killing a 2+ invulnerable Reroll 1s Soul Grinder?

Because if they go first the first thing they do is use their Possessios to turn into Bloodthirsters.


To reliably dispel a armies Warp Charge succesfully 3 Power you need to expend 18 Warp Charge.

Grav gun still immobilize on a 6 and as far as I know don't give saves because they don't inflict a glance or a pen. All the list needs to do to a soul grinder is immobolize it to keep it out of cc. Good enough for government work.

Bloodthirsters would die fast to grav guns that wound them on a 3+. Lords of change would be far more durable. They also die fast if bike squad A multi assaults the greater deamon and 1 unit of horrors while bikesquads B and C jump into the unit of horrors. The horrors get slaughtered, thelord of change kills 3 bikes and then takes a deamonic instability at huge penalty.

Cursed earth can be dispelled on a 5+ if a psychic hood is within 12" It's a safe bet the librarian can get there turn 1. The safe bet is to chuck 4 dice as something that passed on a single charge like cursed earth or sacrifice.

Khan bikes is a popular tournament build and will probably be the most common counter to deamon factory.

Eh Grav Guns got a bit of a nerf, there's cover now for them. Not sure about Invulnerable Saves.

Also, if you go against this army and you are playing bikes, the person would be insane not to summon Heralds of Slaanesh to get access to Telepathy.

Also, most lists with most certainly try to include Belakor, just to get the extra dice and the Shrouded rule.

I'm rewriting this list, I'd love to hear your thoughts once I'm done . You basically desperately want access to Telepathy. So you want Belakor or Daemon Princes to get that Shrouded rule. That and depending on who you are playing against, having access to Biomancy and being able to get +3 toughness +3 St while running around with a Staff of Change is pretty boss.

On the perils topic again, I think demons can ignore the perils on any doubles roll other than 6s.

Yes, they only suffer Perils on Double 6s.

Like I said it's not a invincible army, you cna go back in forth with that " Well I'd do this an they'd do this and I'd do this".

Daemons have counters for gravstar, it's not a instant win.

Also I think people forget that these guys can put out a absolute crapload of shooting if they want to with Flickering Fire. Even at Warp Charge 1 its 2d6.

You've got 12 D6 just from the Heralds
12 D6 just from the Pink Horrors.

It's ST5/ST6. That's pretty good.

3D6 is the sweet spot with 2 @ 4 Warp Charge needed as with 32 or more Power you can fire off 24D6.

Honestly against a Gravstar or something like that a mix of Daemonology and Divination would be best. Casting Precognition then Blasting a unit with 4D6 str 6 hits is pretty good.