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7th ed is here! Frankie busts out a crazy, super high warp charge Daemons army to see how crazy summoning spam is, and Josh plays his Imperial Mash up army hoping to use Maelstrom mission cards to his advantage to level the playing field. And, before anyone asks, we were NOT playing that Horrors could summon.

Hilarious.

What were people saying about how the summoning spell would be hard to abuse because it's WC3? The man summoned 60 fething free models turn 1.

I like it...

The missions and the ability to take your own army without the restrictions is what really made this a game rather than a single lopsided affair. The missions really affect your decision making in game which makes things a bit difficult to play in your own comfort zone; it requires more real time tactical decision making. Frankie's opponent was spot on with his assessment on how to win the game despite a demonic horde being summoned.

I've also found in games where my opponent has a huge amount of warp dice, he effectively shuts down a lot of my psychics, if not all. However, I can generally just throw all my dice at one of his powers to deny it, but the rest tend to go off without a hitch.

My initial reaction is that tourneys will have to figure something out to avoid the demon summoning overload. Some observations:

-Maelstrom missions did tend to balance it out a bit, although that is just a single game. Frankie could also have gotten really good cards to make the game an easy blow out.

-Granted, this was day 1 of 7th, but I do think as some time goes on and these powers become more of a defacto standard, enforcing WYSIWYG will be important.

-Time limits: Not sure how this kind of army can be played in any type of time limit.

-Lower the points? Not sure about this one. I played a 2000 point game and it went nearly 3 1/2 hours. We were learning obviously, but I'm not sure I can easily shave an hour off of a game as time goes on.

Thanks again for another very interesting report. Looking forward to more.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Hilarious.

What were people saying about how the summoning spell would be hard to abuse because it's WC3? The man summoned 60 fething free models turn 1.

Honestly that has more to do with demon's dices being quite hot.

Casting summon on 4 dice and making almost all of them with a 31% chance?

38 dices average to less than 4 summons if you also want the +1 invul.

I think lowering the points limit on tournies to 1500 and 2 hour rounds will curb most issues. The summoning lists will always be able to summon, but I don't think they will be able to make it far with time constraints and lower points.

Did you guys even play the warp storm table? See demons already have idiot amounts of book keeping and time consuming abilities, now you need to cast those slow powers. I'd imagine in a 1500pt 2 hour a round event these lists won't really cut it. Definitely not with scoring wave serpents.

That's my next point. Scoring vehicles trumps a lot of this as well. That one Knight took one side of the table without impunity. Heck, even flying MC struggle with rhinos now. VS won't shave it and they need an extra turn to assault meaning t3 earliest. Then there's the issue of only having one smash attack now and you can see how transports also combat this.

The one sided nature of the psychic phase is annoying, but lets be honest one psycher on a demon world wouldn't be doing much except get headaches so I am OK with it.

I know the cards are random as well and I hate to say it, but that game was kind of awesome. An imperial army on a demon infested world buying time with their lives while the planetary capitol is evacuated and they pull out the draw despite being hopelessly outnumbered. That's one throbbing hard narrative right there

Thanks for sharing!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Hilarious.

What were people saying about how the summoning spell would be hard to abuse because it's WC3? The man summoned 60 fething free models turn 1.

Honestly that has more to do with demon's dices being quite hot.

Casting summon on 4 dice and making almost all of them with a 31% chance?

38 dices average to less than 4 summons if you also want the +1 invul.

6x6=36 leaving 2 for cursed earth. He can very comfortably get 6 units a turn. Had he made horrors instead he'd increased his pool by 6 more dice as well meaning next turn he definitely will spawn another 6. Though I think he was right in spawning demonettes. Fast and assaulty, impact the game sooner without using precious dice. Also a good distraction for virgin monks in space

6 casts*65%= 4 casts

 Red Corsair wrote:
I think lowering the points limit on tournies to 1500 and 2 hour rounds will curb most issues. The summoning lists will always be able to summon, but I don't think they will be able to make it far with time constraints and lower points.

You apparently don't realize that ignoring the issue as above screws over the opponents of the daemon player as well. Not finishing the game and forced slow play don't ignore the guy on the other side of the table who is affected equally yet is not at fault at all for any of it. Or...you can just address the actual issue at hand and curb it severely or ban it outright. Playing 2500pts versus 1750pts by turn two is NEVER a good thing when determined randomly upon strangers. I don't have any issue playing lopsided battles when agreed too beforehand and incorporated into the victory conditions but not in a tourney or random pickup game.


@Reecius: Thanks for putting up the video. I now have yet another thing to check off on the 7th edtion prenup before agreeing to a game.

Just a point on the video try to get rid of the peanut gallery, there was a lot of noise.

But otherwise awesome, I'll post this to spread the word of the daemon stupidity.


Oh and this shows why warp charges should be capped at 12 like most fantasy tournaments.

Really enjoyed the battle report! I had sent you guys a email about Daemon summoning.

I think it was interesting that you just summoned Daemonettes, you know you could have summoned Screamers to deal with the knight with Lamprey Bite and other units or were you just limited to Daemonettes as that was what you had? Or even Plaguebearers who'd glance it on a six.

I'd just like to point out that the Daemon player literally handicapped himself with not using Malefic with the Pink Horror units and did not use a Portaglyph.

Also, did not see a single possession, did you not roll that?

I've been going on my soapbox since the beginning that Daemon Summoning armies are a little to powerful.

 warboss wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I think lowering the points limit on tournies to 1500 and 2 hour rounds will curb most issues. The summoning lists will always be able to summon, but I don't think they will be able to make it far with time constraints and lower points.

You apparently don't realize that ignoring the issue as above screws over the opponents of the daemon player as well. Not finishing the game and forced slow play don't ignore the guy on the other side of the table who is affected equally yet is not at fault at all for any of it. Or...you can just address the actual issue at hand and curb it severely or ban it outright. Playing 2500pts versus 1750pts by turn two is NEVER a good thing when determined randomly upon strangers. I don't have any issue playing lopsided battles when agreed too beforehand and incorporated into the victory conditions but not in a tourney or random pickup game.


@Reecius: Thanks for putting up the video. I now have yet another thing to check off on the 7th edtion prenup before agreeing to a game.

Sorry that post was when i was drinking my morning joe and was kind of all over the place.

I think the game already was silly for competition when 6th hit. Now it is ridiculous, I think events should be comped as little as possible. Mainly I think for time constraints and that's it.

Go to an event for the people and the models and try to enjoy the social interaction. I think this game is beyond playable even in the slightest for competition.
I love the game, have played since 2nd, but the game was BARELY suitable for competitive play back in 5th when things were very simple and way less random. 6th made for some fun games but quickly became a joke, now 7th is so utterly obese with rules bloat and poor mechanics that beyond taking the game down to the floor and starting over your going to be applying a band aid to a gushing wound..... Scratch that, that was prior to the update now it is like treating AIDs with Tylenol. Not only is the remedy pathetic, it doesn't even address the symptoms of the disease anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
Really enjoyed the battle report! I had sent you guys a email about Daemon summoning.

I think it was interesting that you just summoned Daemonettes, you know you could have summoned Screamers to deal with the knight with Lamprey Bite and other units or were you just limited to Daemonettes as that was what you had? Or even Plaguebearers who'd glance it on a six.

I'd just like to point out that the Daemon player literally handicapped himself with not using Malefic with the Pink Horror units and did not use a Portaglyph.

Also, did not see a single possession, did you not roll that?

I've been going on my soapbox since the beginning that Daemon Summoning armies are a little to powerful.

Too much is out of whack. The new damage table makes DE unplayable. It takes three ravagers to comfortably kill a rhino now. Same problem for orks who BTW have nothing to kill a knight. AND the managed to make the shooting phase slower AND added a sloth phase.

Yeah, I mean I thought it was a interesting battle report because the Chaos Daemon Player didn't even do what you can do with Summon Daemons to Summon Daemons and went in with a Handicap by saying Pink Horrors can't summon.

Also, All the Tzeentch models had flickering fire. I didn't see that cast at all during the game? Or did I miss it?

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah, I mean I thought it was a interesting battle report because the Chaos Daemon Player didn't even do what you can do with Summon Daemons to Summon Daemons and went in with a Handicap by saying Pink Horrors can't summon.

Also, All the Tzeentch models had flickering fire. I didn't see that cast at all during the game? Or did I miss it?

Flickering Fire is a very poor use of warp charge. However, if you cap warp dice at twelve, Daemons won't ever get to cast it anyway. I propose we cap IG, Tau and Eldar shooting as well since no one else has a prayer against them in the shooting phase.

Here is my suggestions to applying the brakes to Daemon powers (actually, all psychic powers for everyone):

1. Limit bringing in any new units from Malefic powers to just 1 successful attempt per turn (or maybe 2 at max).

2. The maximum dice any unit can only use his Warp pool per psychic phase is 2x his Mastery Level. For example, a Level 3 Daemon Prince can only ever use a maximum of 6 dice from the warp pool. So why this change as opposed to a hard limit (say, maximum of 12 dice or 20 dice or whatever)? Because if you set a hard cap, there will be a bunch of units sitting around doing nothing whereas the units with all the good powers basically can always get off their powers. For example, say you have a Lvl 3 DP with the Summoning, Invisibility and Cursed Earth. Without limitations, he can problaby use 19 out of the 20 dice pool to get all 3 powers off. But if he can only use 6 dice, now he's got a more difficult choice to make in terms of casting powers. Meanwhile, in the original scenario, if he had used 19 dice, all the pink horrors and other psykers in the army wouldn't be able to cast any powers. But with the 2xLevel limitation, now every psyker will have a reserve to ensure that they be able to cast at least 1 power.

There will be 1 exception and that is if you have only 1 single psyker in your army, then he would be able to use all the warp pool dice available to him.

Hollismason wrote:

I'd just like to point out that the Daemon player literally handicapped himself with not using Malefic with the Pink Horror units and did not use a Portaglyph.

Also, did not see a single possession, did you not roll that?

I've been going on my soapbox since the beginning that Daemon Summoning armies are a little to powerful.

I believe you can only cast Malefic powers if you can choose to cast powers from the BRB. Horrors are limited only to their Tzeentch powers as per their codex. Of course all of this should be clarified when the new FAQ's come out (hopefully).

One of the Heralds cast Possession and turned into a Bloodthirster, though I believe Frankie got the name of the power wrong and called it Sacrifice.

That's actually not true it states clearly in the rulebook that Daemons ( Ie all daemons) have access to Malefic. Now Daemons get their Gods signature spell for free automatically so Pink Horrors would get Flickering Fire and then have to roll on the Malefic chart.

By your logic Heralds shouldn't get it either as the only thing listed for them is Change and Divination.

In fact no one would get access by your logic.

Again, it's stated CLEARLY in the rulebook that Daemons have access to Malefic now as one of their choices.

It's even mentioned in the White Dwarf of Pink Horrors casting Sacrifice.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Oh and this shows why warp charges should be capped at 12 like most fantasy tournaments.

Limiting to 12 dice would almost remove all shooting done by Daemons if you wanted to cast any buffs.

Hollismason wrote:
That's actually not true it states clearly in the rulebook that Daemons ( Ie all daemons) have access to Malefic. Now Daemons get their Gods signature spell for free automatically so Pink Horrors would get Flickering Fire and then have to roll on the Malefic chart.

By your logic Heralds shouldn't get it either as the only thing listed for them is Change and Divination.

In fact no one would get access by your logic.

Again, it's stated CLEARLY in the rulebook that Daemons have access to Malefic now as one of their choices.

It's even mentioned in the White Dwarf of Pink Horrors casting Sacrifice.

The BRB says "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers....can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

The codex states that Horrors can only cast from the Tzeentch powers in the codex. That satisfies the "unless otherwise stated" clause from the BRB.

Of course, we will see what happens when the new FAQ's come out.

And I wouldn't be surprised if GW got their own rules wrong in their own battle report.

Then they would have been playing it wrong in the WD (not the first time it happens).

Lvl *2 would be too low even for non abusive play. It can be done but it makes psykers really risky, with ML3 casting a WC3 at a 65% chance and a ML2 casting a WC2 at a 69%.

 jy2 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
That's actually not true it states clearly in the rulebook that Daemons ( Ie all daemons) have access to Malefic. Now Daemons get their Gods signature spell for free automatically so Pink Horrors would get Flickering Fire and then have to roll on the Malefic chart.

By your logic Heralds shouldn't get it either as the only thing listed for them is Change and Divination.

In fact no one would get access by your logic.

Again, it's stated CLEARLY in the rulebook that Daemons have access to Malefic now as one of their choices.

It's even mentioned in the White Dwarf of Pink Horrors casting Sacrifice.

The BRB says "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers....can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

The codex states that Horrors can only cast from the Tzeentch powers in the codex. That satisfies the "unless otherwise stated" clause from the BRB.

Of course, we will see what happens when the new FAQ's come out.

And I wouldn't be surprised if GW got their own rules wrong in their own battle report.

It doesn't say that anywhere in the codex , I jsut read the army listing and the full listing. It just says they generate from the change discipline. They now get their gods Primaris for free, so that leaves them the ability to roll elsewhere which would be the Malefic chart. IN FACT they can't roll on the Change Discipline again because that would exceed the " May not roll more than HALF their powers on their gods discipline table rule".

So they actually HAVE to roll on Malefic.

Hollismason wrote:

Spoiler:

 jy2 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
That's actually not true it states clearly in the rulebook that Daemons ( Ie all daemons) have access to Malefic. Now Daemons get their Gods signature spell for free automatically so Pink Horrors would get Flickering Fire and then have to roll on the Malefic chart.

By your logic Heralds shouldn't get it either as the only thing listed for them is Change and Divination.

In fact no one would get access by your logic.

Again, it's stated CLEARLY in the rulebook that Daemons have access to Malefic now as one of their choices.

It's even mentioned in the White Dwarf of Pink Horrors casting Sacrifice.

The BRB says "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers....can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

The codex states that Horrors can only cast from the Tzeentch powers in the codex. That satisfies the "unless otherwise stated" clause from the BRB.

Of course, we will see what happens when the new FAQ's come out.

And I wouldn't be surprised if GW got their own rules wrong in their own battle report.

It doesn't say that anywhere in the codex , I jsut read the army listing and the full listing. It just says they generate from the change discipline. They now get their gods Primaris for free, so that leaves them the ability to roll elsewhere which would be the Malefic chart. IN FACT they can't roll on the Change Discipline again because that would exceed the " May not roll more than HALF their powers on their gods discipline table rule".

So they actually HAVE to roll on Malefic.

I think you're getting C:CSM mixed up with C:CD, there is no such restriction on rolling powers for daemons, however I agree you're right about pink horrors being able to use malefic. Pink horrors do indeed state that they 'generate their powers from the change discipline', however every unit in the daemons codex has the same disclaimer with their chosen disciplines such as GUO's stating 'a GUO generates his powers from the biomancy and plague disciplines'. Either you accept that all daemons can use malefic or by the logic you use to discount pink horrors using it then you also discount every psyker in the book from using it.

Like I said, it needs to be FAQ'd for clarification. There will be a lot of that with regards to psychic powers. And then there are the grey knights. Can you imagine paladins being able to cast Gate of Infinity to solve their mobility issues? Or a grey knight rhino casting Vortex of Doom! Lol.

 jy2 wrote:
Like I said, it needs to be FAQ'd for clarification. There will be a lot of that with regards to psychic powers. And then there are the grey knights. Can you imagine paladins being able to cast Gate of Infinity to solve their mobility issues? Or a grey knight rhino casting Vortex of Doom! Lol.

Yeah there's definitely a lot to FAQ, I just hope they actually appear soon, especially after the dry spell, it's been around a year since the last non-release FAQ, and if the first one doesn't cover things then we'll probably be waiting a long time for the next one.

From past history, GW actually gets their initial FAQ's out pretty quickly after a new Edition release.

I'm actually expecting to see the new FAQ's within the week after the release.

 jy2 wrote:
From past history, GW actually gets their initial FAQ's out pretty quickly after a new Edition release.

I'm actually expecting to see the new FAQ's within the week after the release.

It is actually late given their history which is troubling, especially since the old FAQ was put back up a few weeks back on BL. I wouldn't hold my breath this time.

this edition disappointed me in regards to USR. They changed nothing that needed fixing.

Fear: still useless

Hit and run: Still absolutely broken

Fearless: still to strong

Then they missed up cover even more.

No area terrain BUT they make ruins 4+ anywhere. Meaning idiot garbage like MC/FMC big toeing terrain still happens. Heck They still let stealth and shrouding stack which I think is foolish. Oh and BTW, jinking went from a 5 to a 4+ sure it's a choice but wave serpents didn't need a 2/3+ cover save on top of scoring.

This game is seriously for casual only play. It was hard to argue for it being a competition format before, now you need more house rules then ever before.

 jy2 wrote:
From past history, GW actually gets their initial FAQ's out pretty quickly after a new Edition release.

I'm actually expecting to see the new FAQ's within the week after the release.

I was expecting FAQs to be released on Friday night to make all of the codexes 7th edition compatible like they did for 6th edition. It might be that we will not see FAQs for 7th edition, or at least for a while.

I also think that Frankie's army sacrificed quality to just get as many warp charges as possible. I think his list could be built a little better at the sacrifice of some warp charges. That being said, sure he cast spells like a manic, but his whole army stood around doing nothing since all they could do is summon more units and not shoot or do anything else meaningful.

The fact that all he was doing was summoning allowed Josh to hang around long enough to at least tie the game.

The last bit is that Grey Knights will be making a comeback, and since they not only have powers that will mess up demons, but also the dispell dice to slow down the demonic summoning. So in a GT level tournament, the demon players might play them once or twice and they have the counter for the warp charge power dump demon build.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
From past history, GW actually gets their initial FAQ's out pretty quickly after a new Edition release.

I'm actually expecting to see the new FAQ's within the week after the release.

I was expecting FAQs to be released on Friday night to make all of the codexes 7th edition compatible like they did for 6th edition. It might be that we will not see FAQs for 7th edition, or at least for a while.

I also think that Frankie's army sacrificed quality to just get as many warp charges as possible. I think his list could be built a little better at the sacrifice of some warp charges. That being said, sure he cast spells like a manic, but his whole army stood around doing nothing since all they could do is summon more units and not shoot or do anything else meaningful.

The fact that all he was doing was summoning allowed Josh to hang around long enough to at least tie the game.

The last bit is that Grey Knights will be making a comeback, and since they not only have powers that will mess up demons, but also the dispell dice to slow down the demonic summoning. So in a GT level tournament, the demon players might play them once or twice and they have the counter for the warp charge power dump demon build.

Your first part only reinforces the fact that the game was out of hand and he made mistakes from the top to bottom and still did well.

Have to disagree with the GK part. Maelific demonology was an idiotic creation. The only redeeming chance they had was to make sanctic a hard counter. It falls drastically short. Banishment isn't even a banishment and in fact is awful. Then consider demons get more charges for less points on higher quality units pt for pt and I think your dreaming. Now GK actually have to waste charges to cast force which is funny. Perils also hits a random model so taking MSU GK for max charges can lead to very dead important models fast.

We'll see, but GK don't make new models and are still horrible at mobility. Eldar and demons are going to continue the abuse.

They can't match their dice and even if they could, dispelling isn't balanced 1 to 1. Even a demon mirror match won't be able to prevent either side from summoning. Free fearless troops that deepstrike is just a horrible design mechanic.

 Red Corsair wrote:

We'll see, but GK don't make new models and are still horrible at mobility. Eldar and demons are going to continue the abuse.

Not if you get Gate of Infinity.

Imagine if you get Gate and Sanctuary off on your paladinstar.

 jy2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

We'll see, but GK don't make new models and are still horrible at mobility. Eldar and demons are going to continue the abuse.

Not if you get Gate of Infinity.

Imagine if you get Gate and Sanctuary off on your paladinstar.

Yea now imagine how many demon bodies will cover that table and try and place that massive footprint without misshaping... if they shoot then they stay nice and tightly packed as well. It also suffers from the whole, I can only target one unit a turn while the demons make 4-6. Both tables are good, the evil side is just more broken and used by more mobile, cheaper and better casters. That paladin unit relies on too many personal buffs as well, while the demons just keep making more and more scoring units while screening you out.

The games busted. Trying to fish for more broken loopholes to fix other broken mechanics seems like a lost cause.

Where are the FAQs on the new GW site anyway though?

On the actual bat rep: Yea I see random mission cards like that really you over sometimes.

 Blood Hawk wrote:
Where are the FAQs on the new GW site anyway though?

On the actual bat rep: Yea I see random mission cards like that really you over sometimes.

There are no new FAQ's and the 6th ones are no longer valid. Though last I checked were on black libraries sight if you are interested anyway.