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Eldar (latest edition) is the only army I have yet to face (I play SM), what does the dreaded Seer Council consist of? And what is its strength based upon? What about Beast-stars? How does the Baron fit in that picture?

I appreciate the help, trying to educate myself on the enemy.

Seer council, AFAIK, was based around stacking psyker powers to get an ungodly hard to kill combo, and as casting got harder now, on top of the ability to deny blessing-there are several counters to it now (practically all the deny enchanters, and armies who has ungodly amount of deny dice like T demons)

So, if you nuke one of the casting, you can brake the defense for a turn, and give it a beating.
Probably not dead, but not nearly as unstoppable.


Don't know beaststar though.

Baron brings stealth, assault grenades, and, most importantly, hit and run.

Seer Council typically consists of 2 Farseers on jetbikes (one of which has a sword that gives Fearless USR), The Baron, and 8-10 Warlocks on bikes. It is fast, usually gets a 2+ armour save, a 2+ cover save, and a 4+ inv. save. With re-rolls. Their speed allows them to pick on units, and to split up late game and contest objectives.

Beastpack typically consists of 20-25 Khymerae (sp?), 0-5 Razorwing Flocks, 5 Beastmasters, The Baron, Farseer on jetbike with fearless-sword, and either Eldrad or another Jetseer. It's fast, hits hard, is hard to kill, and has an enormous table presence that allows it to dictate the game flow.

I didn't know Eldars had access to 2+ armor?

Bikes give 3+ armor. Protect increases your armor save by one step.

Ah... I see. So most of their strengths relies on successful spells, hopefully that will be toned down with the new edition.

That leaves us with the Screamerstar, which also relies on a blessing (which will have the chance to be blocked).

ICs won't be allowed to join MCs in the new edition which will restrict some of the Tau cheese.

So overall I think most of the top "abusive" competitive list will be at the very least toned-down.

Looking forward to the new BRB and some fresh list-building!

The Screamer Star is still here. Since they gave Daemonology Scorched Earth (IIRC) that gives them +1 to their invuln save. Allowing Daemon Players to bypass Divination all together. Then just give them the Grimoire from there and poof - Heralds who can give +1 to invulns (4++) AND have free access to summoning other units.

True. But at least now the opponent will have a chance of blocking it.

GoliothOnline wrote:
The Screamer Star is still here. Since they gave Daemonology Scorched Earth (IIRC) that gives them +1 to their invuln save. Allowing Daemon Players to bypass Divination all together. Then just give them the Grimoire from there and poof - Heralds who can give +1 to invulns (4++) AND have free access to summoning other units.

I'm not sure but isn't the shooting attack of the Screamerstar a witchfire? Meaning in 7th it can only be cast once for the unit? Only one Herald will be able to cast Flickering Fire then. Nerfing it from potential 16D6 shots to 4D6 shots.

A typical Jetseer-star will be 2 x Farseers (Lv 3 each) and 6-10 Warlocks (Lv 1 each). We will go with an average of 8 Warlocks for demonstration purposes. Add in the Baron for Stealth, Hit and Run, Offensive/Defensive grenades that applies to the entire unit.

With 8 Warlocks, I start with 14 + d6 dice for the psychic phase.

Fortune has Warp Charge 2. I'd likely roll 4 dice to get '2' 4+ rolls to get Fortune to succeed. If I roll double 6, I get a Perils, but I still have Warp Charges left, so I use 1 and negate the Perils with the Ghosthelm. My opponent can try to negate it, but will need to roll as many '6's in order to negate it. Not overly likely, but possible.

After spending 4-5 Warp Charges, I still have 11-12 + d6 remaining to try and cast other powers. Warlocks are at a bit of a disadvantage as it can get a bit dicey to roll, but all of their powers are Warp Charge 1, so using 2 dice to roll is not overly unreasonable.

So, it is entirely possible to get the Jetseer powered up properly and still go after what they used to.

For further interesting attempts, Psychic Shriek can be really good when combined with the Eldar psychic aircraft casting Horrify for a -3 Leadership. It can now move onto the table, then actually cast powers on the same turn. Having Horrify cast, then drop a couple of Psychic Shrieks (which are now 18" range) seems to have an interesting synergy. Then, they can move in the assault phase to try and get away.

And then there is this entire concept of multiple detachments where we may be able to take 3-4 Farseers in one army...

It will be quite interesting to see all the subtle changes and how it affects army builds and gameplay.

Invisibility got stronger. Flying circus disappeared (gotta wait a turn to charge after swooping). Beaststar got stronger because of the changes to powers.

If you fail to manifest a power, you cant cast it again that turn by any psyker, they are going to to take a beating now, deny fortune pool all your dice in it and you are good.

Sure but a typical Jetseer is starting with 14 + d6 and can spend a lot of dice and save one to cancel the Perils due to their Ghosthelm. Fortune will still be pretty easy to get off. If GW FAQ the Ghosthelm then it could be a different matter.

Really? How, If

i am reading it, if it get denied, you cant manifest for the rest of the turn.
But this is mute now, I will find out tommorow

Perils does not mean the power fails if I understand it correctly which is why the Ghosthelm may be clutch to help ensure Fortune gets cast.

 Sarigar wrote:

With 8 Warlocks, I start with 14 + d6 dice for the psychic phase.

Fortune has Warp Charge 2. I'd likely roll 4 dice to get '2' 4+ rolls to get Fortune to succeed. If I roll double 6, I get a Perils, but I still have Warp Charges left, so I use 1 and negate the Perils with the Ghosthelm. My opponent can try to negate it, but will need to roll as many '6's in order to negate it. Not overly likely, but possible.

After spending 4-5 Warp Charges, I still have 11-12 + d6 remaining to try and cast other powers. Warlocks are at a bit of a disadvantage as it can get a bit dicey to roll, but all of their powers are Warp Charge 1, so using 2 dice to roll is not overly unreasonable.

So, it is entirely possible to get the Jetseer powered up properly and still go after what they used to.

With Ld10 you used to have a 91% chance of casting Fortune every turn. Using 4 dice for a Warp Charge 2 power means you have a 50% chance of passing, and that just isn't going to cut it - for a key power like Fortune you want to be using 6 dice most of the time as its the power most people will be trying to stop (i.e throwing all their dice to try and block).

Its interesting because I think both the JetCouncil and the Beaststar did pretty well from these changes. The JetCouncil gets more powers to play with on the Warlocks (you never need to swap to Conceal, Iyanden Spiritseers love this) but more importantly will now actually have a use for all those Warlocks who never cast their powers, assuming you want Conceal, Enhance and Protect on an 8 man Council you can use the charge from the others to make casting more reliable (Conceal on 2 dice is slightly better odds than Ld8). If you happen to get duplicate powers of everything you want you will always be better off single dicing the casts though as it prevents you from blowing yourself up. The Beaststar will still be fine, and is now just outright rude if you manage to get Invis as well as Fortune. With Eldrad + a Farseer you have 7+D6 charge, which will easily give you enough for Fortune + 1-2 other powers. Both need to wait a bit for FAQs though, as how GW deals with some of the Eldar gear could change things a bit.

It's not like you don't know how many dice the opponent has. Unless you're fighting Tzeentch or GKs you are very likely to have more than whoever is across from you. Fortune is crucial, so throw a bunch of dice into it and make it happen. Use 9 dice if you really want it. Then another 3 or 4 on protect and hope your Warlock doesn't explode (it's not a guaranteed death if the leaked perils tables are right, so that's not a suicidal strategy). You can also cast useful, non-essential powers first with a few dice because your opponent won't want to waste their deny rolls on stuff that's not Fortune.

The Seer Council can still manage the tricks that make is so brutal. If it can survive well (ie get fortune and the 2+ it needs, either cover or armor) then it can fall back on its USRs and Witchblades to kick ass across the board. It doesn't need to cast more than a few spells in order to be a deciding factor in a game.

However, I'm glad that there will be ways to shut down its important powers. I never wanted the Council to be the exploit of the season. I've been using one since early 5th edition and it was always fun even when it wasn't indestructible. Now you can't use one in any situation except hardcore tournaments, which is unfortunate because it got way more fun with all the new powers it gained access to in the new codex.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
If you fail to manifest a power, you cant cast it again that turn by any psyker, they are going to to take a beating now, deny fortune pool all your dice in it and you are good.

Where did you get THAT idea?

Powers are per unit, not per army. each unit can cast each power once, regardless if they make it or not (so you wont just spam 1 charge attempts)
Not sure how it works with ICs in units though, they MIGHT be able to cast same power as the unit, or tzench demons took a heavy hit. (still waiting for rules of their replacement for the LD buff)

I think folks are thinking that things like Jetseerstar are a single unit.

Yep, they've gotten somewhat nerfed with psy-powers and opponent getting a chance of denying your most important powers. And unlike cheezy farseer, regular warlocks still have real chances of killing themselves in the process.

You won't me able to deny a blessing most of times so forget cancelling Fortune.

To do so, you need to roll as many 6 as he needs to roll success, you don't get any modifiers. So while he needs two 4, you need two 6. You really can't rely on that, especially if you're playing one of the non psyker army.

Hmm, looks like DE venoms with trophies are pointless now are Ld re rolls (well done GW, well done).

 Sarigar wrote:
I think folks are thinking that things like Jetseerstar are a single unit.

and it isn't? when the farseer joins the warlocks, doesn't it become part of it?
Now, if an warlock botches a Protect roll, noone will be able to cast another Protect. If one of the Farseers botches Fortune, the other one won't be able to try it. Same with any power (even witchfires). That, added with the new psychic roll, severely neuters Seerstar.
Invisibility will be quite interesting, though (snap shots and 6+ on CC against a unit with it).

In 6th ed it is, not sure about 7th.

Now what is interesting is how runes of warding and witnessing work. Warding as in you deny on 4+ just like they cast on 4+ for a turn. Witnessing they re roll all failed 4+ to cast?

It will be cool to see how it works.

I'm pretty jazzed about this Edition. It's like the apology Edition more than an enormous rewrite.

The Beast Star was Baron+whatever beasts you wanted + Farseer on Jetbike was nigh unkillable. best bet to defeat it was to stay away from objectives at first and lure it deeeeeeeeep into your territory where it could do no harm. this worked by and large for me. Its value is killing things. Take away the IMPORTANCE of what its killing and put it out of position and you have effectively taken care of that problem. If he decided to play back on defense, your shooting isnt menaced and you can let loose. So.

MY JetCouncil is used to power up my Eldar airforce. With their help, the airforce can literally knock a pair of units off the board in round 1, plus pin 2-3 more with supporting fire. Repeat.

as you can imagine, this is quite devastating. Its also not an often used build. But it is effective.

Others use the Jetcouncils more conventionally to give themselves 2+ armor and then go Wraithblading people to death but i find this to be enormously expensive and questionably valuable in 6E. In 7E it will be far more valuable because every darn thing scores. So that dramatically changes the value of a unit like this.

I just cant wait to play 7E.