Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Exergy wrote:
5 wyches with haywire grenades

It makes me sad that the supposedly best gladiatorial combatants in the universe are relegated to suicide anti-heavy vehicle duty....

Gauss weapons and scarabs.

Scarabs on a quad gun will still be one of my go to choices for AT because of the pure hilarity of scarabs shooting a LR to death

 A GumyBear wrote:
Scarabs on a quad gun will still be one of my go to choices for AT because of the pure hilarity of scarabs shooting a LR to death

Have fun now they can only snap shoot at non-flyers/ skimmers.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Pask in a punisher with LC and melta sponsons.

sure 2/3s of 20 shots hit 1/6 of those rend, 1/3 of those glance; so most basic math-hammer: .740740 glances, then .22222 glances from the meltas over 12" of range, .1111 glances from MM within 12" or .407407 explodes from the MM within 12". Then you have a grand total of .1111 glances with the lascannon, or .037037 explodes

honestly melta vets jumping out of a chimera do a better job cheaper with .166666 glances within 6" or .61111 explodes(you would not disembark therm outside of 6")

He rerolls armor pen... And rolls of 1 to hit.

ok, 1.433471 glances from the gatling cannon, .248457 glances from the MM at under 12", or .462892 explodes. and the lascannon gets .147634 glances and .052812 explodes

3 melta vets are still better and cheaper.

So half its HP and just over half chance to explode it from an AV 14 vehicle that presents similar challenges to long range enemy fire, or a couple dudes that can be gunned down with a few heavy bolters. Sure, I can see why the former might be more expensive.

Vehicles kinda needed a buff : \ Walkers got help from this to.

Melta. Same as before.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Melta. Same as before.

This. Even at a ~16% less chance for an explodes result, Land Raiders are transports. Their damage comes from what they're carrying. An immobilized transport is taking its cargo nowhere.

Loopstah wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
Scarabs on a quad gun will still be one of my go to choices for AT because of the pure hilarity of scarabs shooting a LR to death

Have fun now they can only snap shoot at non-flyers/ skimmers.

They got rid if the interceptor skyfire rule? Well I guess that tactic is no fun now

Just glance them to death like all other armor in the game.

 minigun762 wrote:
Just glance them to death like all other armor in the game.

Generally harder to do to AV14.

Oh! I know.. anytime someone brings one just threaten not to play if they field it.

Mavnas wrote:
Pask in a punisher with LC and melta sponsons.

+1 to this.

Eihnlazer wrote:
single models that cost 250+ points should not die from a single round of firing from even an equivilent point cost unit.

It should take 2-3x as many points worth of models to kill it in one turn.

This is assuming you are advancing across the table at each other from the start of the game.

If your using units specialized at deep striking melta, they a unit worth 80-120% of its points should be able to take it out.

Exactly this. My 1850 Space Marine list runs two Land Raiders (Vanilla and Redeemer) and the last two games I played, both against a White Scars list, both Raiders were killed turn 2 by 5 man squads with 2 grav guns, melta bombs and a multi-melta. 60% of the points of the Land Raider and presents a zero chance of survival. Land Raiders were not scary in 6th, they were a massive waste of points. I only run them because the models I have are loaded up with forge world bits and cost me $120+, and it kills me to drop over $200 on models then not use them. All of these changes make me happy, because my list might actually be balanced against that damn White Scars list.

 friendlycommissar wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
single models that cost 250+ points should not die from a single round of firing from even an equivilent point cost unit.

It should take 2-3x as many points worth of models to kill it in one turn.

This is assuming you are advancing across the table at each other from the start of the game.

If your using units specialized at deep striking melta, they a unit worth 80-120% of its points should be able to take it out.

Exactly this. My 1850 Space Marine list runs two Land Raiders (Vanilla and Redeemer) and the last two games I played, both against a White Scars list, both Raiders were killed turn 2 by 5 man squads with 2 grav guns, melta bombs and a multi-melta. 60% of the points of the Land Raider and presents a zero chance of survival. Land Raiders were not scary in 6th, they were a massive waste of points. I only run them because the models I have are loaded up with forge world bits and cost me $120+, and it kills me to drop over $200 on models then not use them. All of these changes make me happy, because my list might actually be balanced against that damn White Scars list.

These changes aren't really going to do anything to weaken grav weaponary and haywire as vehicle killers.

Rather they're weakening more traditional anti-tank weapons and thus encouraging people to get the weapons that rely on hull point stripping even more.

 Rismonite wrote:
Oh! I know.. anytime someone brings one just threaten not to play if they field it.

Yep. Thats what half the people on here do anyways. If they see an army they dont like, they dont play it.

Have you all forgotten that landraiders have fething hullpoints and do next to 0 damage?

chip its hull points. What's so wrong with that?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Have you all forgotten that landraiders have fething hullpoints and do next to 0 damage?

chip its hull points. What's so wrong with that?

As I said, you're likely going to be more afraid of Monoliths.

Land Raiders are mostly just a concern because they can be super-scoring for some armies and thus lock down an objective.

While the new chart means that lascannons are even less viable at killing AV14 than before, nothing's stopping someone from just zapping it with haywire.

 Kain wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Have you all forgotten that landraiders have fething hullpoints and do next to 0 damage?

chip its hull points. What's so wrong with that?

As I said, you're likely going to be more afraid of Monoliths.

Land Raiders are mostly just a concern because they can be super-scoring for some armies and thus lock down an objective.

While the new chart means that lascannons are even less viable at killing AV14 than before, nothing's stopping someone from just zapping it with haywire.

I'm glad you said "even less viable". Lascannons were never good against AV14.

Ehh... Imperial fists devestator squads are still gonna do fine with lazcannons.



one squad is averaging 2 hullpoints a turn, and you should have more than 1 squad.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Have you all forgotten that landraiders have fething hullpoints and do next to 0 damage?

chip its hull points. What's so wrong with that?

As I said, you're likely going to be more afraid of Monoliths.

Land Raiders are mostly just a concern because they can be super-scoring for some armies and thus lock down an objective.

While the new chart means that lascannons are even less viable at killing AV14 than before, nothing's stopping someone from just zapping it with haywire.

I'm glad you said "even less viable". Lascannons were never good against AV14.

I learned how suboptimal they were the hard way after many frustrating instances of Terminus Ultras and Spartan Assault Tanks failing to impress in anti-tank ability.

Even with Tarnus Vale to give the Spartan tankhunters for it's quad TL'd lascannons killing Av14 is something that happens from weight of averages then the lascannon's inherent strength.

When I say that IF Lascannon/Missile Dev-Cents are good vehicle poppers, it's worth noting that Old broadsides aren't quite as terrifying against heavy tanks as some may remember them (it's more because they could shoot three TL'd shots per HS slot, a single railgun, as the Hammerhead can attest to, is not super-reliable anti-tank, even Longstrike with his tankhunters ability only penetrates with about half his hits). They are absolutely devastating to AV12 and under units, but mostly serve to make AV14 units cautious, not afraid.

The LC is best used like a Krak missile +1 (and the Railgun is in turn, a lascannon1), it's more of a transport popper than a heavy tank killer.

 Kain wrote:

The LC is best used like a Krak missile +1 (and the Railgun is in turn, a lascannon1), it's more of a transport popper than a heavy tank killer.

That's a good assessment I think.
Lascannons are there to kill AV11-13 primarily. Hurting AV14 is a secondary function that they can perform if need be.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

The LC is best used like a Krak missile +1 (and the Railgun is in turn, a lascannon1), it's more of a transport popper than a heavy tank killer.

That's a good assessment I think.
Lascannons are there to kill AV11-13 primarily. Hurting AV14 is a secondary function that they can perform if need be.

The AP2 gives the lascannon the added benefit of being a bit better for killing high priority targets but there's not too many that fit the bill that are really worth the lascannon's time unless better targets are gone.

If you do have a shot at a T4 model without EW but has a 2+ save on it or see a big scary monstrous creature or walker but don't have more purpose built weapons to kill them at the ready, then by all means take the shot.

Just don't expect a big bang for your buck.

Now tank-hunters does substantially help the Lascannon in both it's intended role and in making AV14 wary about being in your LOS. The threat of dev cents or lascannon devastators with tank hunting lascannons is often enough to make a land raider user more cautious about using his tank and will certainly pop lower armor values with impunity.

But the best long ranged tank killer (barring D-weapons) is still either a Pasquisher or a Bastion Breacher Medusa/Necron Heatcannon Sentry Pylon. Tankhunting S8 armorbane or S10 armorbane goes through most armor like butter. At somewhat shorter range, the Vindicaire remains very good at piercing through most vehicles even if he's taken a hit with the new tables.

With the hit Lascannons are taking on the damage damage, would it make more sense to run the cheaper missile launchers instead? I mean, if we're counting on melta, grav and haywire for killing AV14, is their a need for a lascannon?

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
With the hit Lascannons are taking on the damage damage, would it make more sense to run the cheaper missile launchers instead? I mean, if we're counting on melta, grav and haywire for killing AV14, is their a need for a lascannon?

-Matt

A lascannon still has a chance of one hit killing a vehicle. Missile launchers can only hull point strip and get the lesser results on the vehicle damage table now.

Strawmans and misrepresentation all over this thread.

people I know generally refuse to play ridiculous armies, not just strong ones. Land Raiders? Fine, that's cool. 10XRiptides with an added Revenant Titan, not so much. But no, that's obviously my fault as a casual gamer.

MUST. FORGE. HARDER.

And no one ever mentioned anti infantry weapons for dealing with Land Raiders. OP said LCs, Lances and MCs, all of which are considered strictly anti vehicle.

In response to the OP, it's either ignore it or glance it to death. Or bring D. Because that's a thing now. Lots of D. Drown it in the D.

Hoo boy.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Strawmans and misrepresentation all over this thread.

people I know generally refuse to play ridiculous armies, not just strong ones. Land Raiders? Fine, that's cool. 10XRiptides with an added Revenant Titan, not so much. But no, that's obviously my fault as a casual gamer.

MUST. FORGE. HARDER.

And no one ever mentioned anti infantry weapons for dealing with Land Raiders. OP said LCs, Lances and MCs, all of which are considered strictly anti vehicle.

In response to the OP, it's either ignore it or glance it to death. Or bring D. Because that's a thing now. Lots of D. Drown it in the D.

Hoo boy.

Your enemy's tanks and MCs can just suck on your D.




I never thought I'd get to use that song in context on a forum.

You're welcome

How do we kill Landraiders now?

Eee... ram it with Leman Russ tank?

Ap1 Weapons, Ap2 weapons, lance weapons. Strength 8 or above weapons so you can glance it to death, lascannons. I could go on if you want.