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-Loki- wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
How cute, I'm calling the rage quitters, rage quitters.... cause they're in a rage... and quitting... all over Dakka, everywhere (and we know they'll mostly be back in 6 months).

I'm not rage quitting, because I honestly don't see the point getting that emotionally unstable over a hobby.

I wouldn't even say I'm quitting. My Tyranids are still there, and even get a bit of painting done to them occasionally.

I will not, however, be buying the new edition or any other Games Workshop products, aside from possibly paint for the forseeable future. It's just not the game I used to like, and not a game I want to support while it's in this form.

The GW apologists love to pull this kind of thing. If you complain about something that is blatantly horrible they want to insult you. The apologists have a long way to go on this edition. Calling a spade a spade is what those of us that are complaining about 7th are doing. Those saying 7th is fine, you just need house rules, ect, ect, are the ones trying to call a maggot infested turd a prize winning orchid.

Jervis Jhonson has been in charge of GW rules since 5th edition. The game has been losing market share since then. Stop apologizing for this morons incompetence. The guy is horrible at his job. We won't see the change we want to see so long as he has his job at GW.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Triton wrote:
Fewer people are buying GW products now than this time last year. They're not bringing in new blood.

So true, their pricing and lack of rules support is killing them (as is the bafflingly bizarre one man store approach and their screw the FLGS tactics). Though a good chunk of the blame is at the feet of the bitter and self destructive vocal minority that's practicing a scorched earth policy on the old interwebz and the unwillingness of club/league/pick up game organizer to set ground rules.

I am certain you believe it is your fault that your spouse hits you.

Davor wrote:
(...)
You know we should have a rule if anyone summons a Daemon that really shouldn't be able to, then another battle quickly happens. That lone psyker or the unit it is with that agrees with it has to face an Inquisition to battle them. If the Inquisition player wins, that person who had the mins summon a daemon has to give up his minis to that person then.

That´s one possibility. There are many....

I am still on the fence regarding this new 'edition'. It looks like most of it is a copy-paste of 6th. The background sections seem to be, word by word, the same I bought two years ago, and the same goes for most of the rules. I will try to get a copy to read it carefully before taking a decision.

@dresnar, read what I've actually typed, then call me an apologist.

I never even implied that if you didn't like it you're a rage quitter. Simply stated that if you can get past all the repetitive hyperbole, there's a redeemable game that I'm actually excited for. Should I have to tweak/edit a ruleset to make it work? No. Do I even like the G'dub management and marketing, epic no. I've always said so.

Not sure how someone like me could even be called an apologist. But I'm not unable to see the great game that the good guys in the design studio have tried to slide by the Jervis bloc. What's silly is that the negative guys refuse to see any good. That's rage not reason.

 Lobukia wrote:
@dresnar, read what I've actually typed, then call me an apologist.

I never even implied that if you didn't like it you're a rage quitter. Simply stated that if you can get past all the repetitive hyperbole, there's a redeemable game that I'm actually excited for. Should I have to tweak/edit a ruleset to make it work? No. Do I even like the G'dub management and marketing, epic no. I've always said so.

Not sure how someone like me could even be called an apologist. But I'm not unable to see the great game that the good guys in the design studio have tried to slide by the Jervis bloc. What's silly is that the negative guys refuse to see any good. That's rage not reason.

You're right, you didn't imply, you said it outright.
Maybe the criticisms seem repetitive because many different people have the same criticisms? If that's the case, maybe they actually have something to say.

Show me, quote box it. I said that rage quitters and edition banners were generating white noise. Look around. People were, and kinda still are complaining about stuff when they clearly haven't read through the rules or even done the math on how probable their "Sky falling" scenarios were.

There are valid complaints. I've acknowledged many, voiced some, agreed on others. I'm just amazed at the inability of the community to self regulate. If there are so many consistent concerns, then league/club/tournament ground rules should be a breeze. Flip off G'dub, right the ship of whine, and get some great games in... or flip the table and sell everything on eBay. One seems more practical to me. I guess some others just want to see the game burn. Great. Go away.

I'm more likely to quit reading Dakka than quit playing 40k over this edition.

It would be "Come the Apocalypse" for Dakka if GW put out the perfect edition cause no one would have a target for their nerd rage. Oh, except they would claim that a complete reboot that such an edition would require would be nothing more than a "blatant money grab" on their part.

helotaxi wrote:
I'm more likely to quit reading Dakka than quit playing 40k over this edition.

It would be "Come the Apocalypse" for Dakka if GW put out the perfect edition cause no one would have a target for their nerd rage. Oh, except they would claim that a complete reboot that such an edition would require would be nothing more than a "blatant money grab" on their part.

Did you have anything of value to contribute, or just to lump anyone who's opinion you disagree with into some fictional group who's only feeling is 'Nerd rage'.

Seriously, has there been anything of value in this whinefest over the last couple days?

And you're making it any better by calling it 'nerd rage'?

Don't like it, don't post. No ones forcing you to read all the' nerd rage' as you so eloquently put it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you're making it any better by calling it 'nerd rage'?

Don't like it, don't post. No ones forcing you to read all the' nerd rage' as you so eloquently put it.

helotaxi wrote:
Seriously, has there been anything of value in this whinefest over the last couple days?

That people are willing to get shystered out of money and then defend the company against legitimate complaints with ignorant apologetic non arguments?

I love how the ragers rage on without having a copy of the rules, and actually even playing 7th.

All the rage, but where's the quit?

 44Ronin wrote:
I love how the ragers rage on without having a copy of the rules, and actually even playing 7th.

All the rage, but where's the quit?

Lol. Agreed. Double down on the quit folks so us on the walls can fix the problems and enjoy the fruits of our labors. If you're genuinely mad, email the top investors of G'dub and tell them why 7th will kill their golden goose. That might actually get some real change.

 44Ronin wrote:
I love how the ragers rage on without having a copy of the rules, and actually even playing 7th.

All the rage, but where's the quit?

Lots of assumptions in your post.

The thing is, all of the so-called "Nerd-Ragers" and "Rage Quiters" and any other slurs you want to label them with. They all understand where you are coming from, because all of them at some point in the past where you. Looking down on those upset about an edition change. But they also know without any doubt you will join them eventually. Because "White Knights" always become "Nerd-Ragers". Cycle of life.

As for the "quit" you are demanding I'm sure plenty of people are putting you on their ignore lists.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:
I love how the ragers rage on without having a copy of the rules, and actually even playing 7th.

All the rage, but where's the quit?

Lots of assumptions in your post.

There's no assumption. Read through the 7th rumor thread. It's hilarious.

Ragers screaming, BROOOKUUNNNN! then, someone with the rules quotes the actual rule and they move on to whine about something else, completely ignoring the fact they were wrong and foolhardy.

The thing is, all of the so-called "Nerd-Ragers" and "Rage Quiters" and any other slurs you want to label them with. They all understand where you are coming from, because all of them at some point in the past where you. Looking down on those upset about an edition change. But they also know without any doubt you will join them eventually. Because "White Knights" always become "Nerd-Ragers". Cycle of life.

Nice Assumptions

As for the "quit" you are demanding I'm sure plenty of people are putting you on their ignore lists.

I never demanded anything. I was just wondering why they haven't these people carried out their threats yet?

Makumba wrote:
And If demons are your main army , then I am sure your happy for 7th , they got better. On the other hand tau got nerfed a lot . My AM won't work unless I take ally . I for example have nothing that can counter a demon spawning list that drops 2-3 squads of horrors per turn , while buffing their invs and stoping my two casters from doing anything.

*Sigh.* Let me nip this in the bud right here.

I know the theory Tzeentch list. Let's get real.

Say in 2000 points (and that you even agreed to play it), they have 30 warp charge. Plus average 3 per turn. So 33.

You want to conjure anything (with the exception of a Herald, which requires a sacrifice), you have to get 3 Warp Charge. To do that, they'll need to throw 5 dice at each attempt. Say they get more Horrors... so? Horrors are T3 with a 5+ save. They fall to bolter fire easily, and are still limited to Change powers, which can admittedly be handy, but if they're using their powers, that's less dice to summon. So you can just shred the units without much trouble. Oh, they want to buff their guys, too? Ok, that's two dice to do that for each Daemon trying it.

Let's assume three of the bigger daemons have the buff power, and they spread out to share the love. That's six dice. 27 left. Now you through out five summons, you can still have a couple left, but the likelihood is one of those summons failed. You now have more targets for light arms. Congrats!

Those Heralds giving more dice? Toughness 3, two Wounds each. Anything S6 or higher will insta-kill them and knock out a caster and three dice. You have a good chance to take out 3-4 in the first turn, putting a serious knock in his army's dice. Also, light arms just tearing through Horrors... which also reduces the number of dice. Goodness, that dice pool is shrinking!

Oh, they still have the FMCs? Well, they can't hold objectives until they come down from the sky.

They're stopping your powers? Don't invest so much in psychic powers. Use the points for guns they can't nullify that will tear up their Heralds and Horrors.

And, of course, the player has to have enough models for the conjured daemons.

So while on paper the army sounds really scary, the reality is that it will likely fall flat. I might have to talk someone into doing a proxied force to try it out and see whether it's effective at all.

Just a quick note that I posted in another thread.

At the advent of 8th ed Fantasy, there was a lot of angst and gripes by various people who didn't like the direction the game had gone in, or who wanted to change/houserule things. A certain segment of the community responded by telling those people to shut up, quit and go away. And people listened, and did... and I haven't seen a game of Fantasy in years now.

So I'm just saying, be careful what you wish for, as it might come true. A person upset with the game may eventually come around and try it out again. A person who's been told by the community to piss off and shut up because they didn't like some aspect, however, is more likely to just stay away.

 Maddermax wrote:
Just a quick note that I posted in another thread.

At the advent of 8th ed Fantasy, there was a lot of angst and gripes by various people who didn't like the direction the game had gone in, or who wanted to change/houserule things. A certain segment of the community responded by telling those people to shut up, quit and go away. And people listened, and did...

All I've said from square one IS to house rule/change things. I want people to help us all fix this, not just spew negativity about the edition. I think very brief ground rules, 4 sentences, makes this edition change from groan/face palm into great/fun. Help fix it for your own enjoyment.

I'm pretty hyped about the new rules. I've just given them a cursory looking over at this point but they seem pretty good. They're close enough to sixth which is great because I just started learning those a few months ago.

I had been planning on doing some Grey Knights anyway so now this is just all the more reason to. Also I'd wanted to get some green stuff and try my hand at sculpting some sort of Daemonic thingamabobs.

If you need opponents permission, then why can't house rules form part of that permission? Adding a proviso in the form of a house rule is still permission, which is in the rules.

Everyone's happy.

Most of the changes are good, so for me it's good that it came out so quickly after 6th. I'm not so tight-fisted that I want to play a lackluster game while they're ready to print better ones.

 Maddermax wrote:
Just a quick note that I posted in another thread.

At the advent of 8th ed Fantasy, there was a lot of angst and gripes by various people who didn't like the direction the game had gone in, or who wanted to change/houserule things. A certain segment of the community responded by telling those people to shut up, quit and go away. And people listened, and did... and I haven't seen a game of Fantasy in years now.

So I'm just saying, be careful what you wish for, as it might come true. A person upset with the game may eventually come around and try it out again. A person who's been told by the community to piss off and shut up because they didn't like some aspect, however, is more likely to just stay away.

A GW apologist gets what he wants, everyone that complained about how terrible the edition was leaves. All his name calling and false assumptions have finally done the trick, the GW apologist can finally play a game in peace. He looks around the room, no one is there.

 Lobukia wrote:

All I've said from square one IS to house rule/change things. I want people to help us all fix this, not just spew negativity about the edition. I think very brief ground rules, 4 sentences, makes this edition change from groan/face palm into great/fun. Help fix it for your own enjoyment.

The onus is on GW to produce good rulesets if they can't be arsed why should the player base be forced to pick up the pieces? If you need to create house rules to make the game work you would be far better off using a competently designed ruleset as a base.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maddermax wrote:
Just a quick note that I posted in another thread.

At the advent of 8th ed Fantasy, there was a lot of angst and gripes by various people who didn't like the direction the game had gone in, or who wanted to change/houserule things. A certain segment of the community responded by telling those people to shut up, quit and go away. And people listened, and did... and I haven't seen a game of Fantasy in years now.

So I'm just saying, be careful what you wish for, as it might come true. A person upset with the game may eventually come around and try it out again. A person who's been told by the community to piss off and shut up because they didn't like some aspect, however, is more likely to just stay away.

I was one of the people who walked away from Fantasy (I had been playing since 4th edition, so since about 1993) and while 7th was pretty bad 8th was a step too far. I have now given away most of my fantasy stuff and the remainder sits forlorn in a box. People can and do just walk away if they don't see the point of staying, GW's rapidly diminishing market share is proof enough of that.

Shrilly accusing people of childishly rage quitting is entirely missing the point and its something that you may well rue when you can no longer find anyone who is interested in playing 40k with you.

Can't really say I am excited at all about it. I was enjoying 6th edition. I don't see why they needed to come out with 7th when Fantasy was definitely in need of an update, and people in general seemed to be enjoying 6th edition.

I guess they needed a quick influx of cash. Every player has to fork over $85 to keep playing basically.

I'm torn between really wanting to just give it a go, and just giving in and selling everything while it's probably worth more. As a daemons player with a horde of metal daemonettes and pink horrors and plenty more besides this is probably the point at which I could sell them for the most they'll ever go for, and I'm more than a little disillusioned after getting a new edition after less than two years. I love the fluff I really do, and I'm quite proud of even my worst models, but the games are just getting longer and more imbalanced. Meanwhile other systems are flourishing and have a much lower buy in which means I could happily splash out on whatever I wanted with the proceeds from my GW minis.

All that said though I think I'll probably end up staying in from a mix of apathy and nostalgia, I'd also miss the occasional apoc battles, other systems don't really offer anything quite like that, at least none I'm aware of. Also having two kickstarters delivering what is essentially 40k product this year are a bit more incentive to keep going, it's probably a feeling that will pass but seeing battle reports of 7th I'm not so sure that it will.

I was once a GW defender. (never a blind white knight though) I liked 6th edition a lot. But now I can't see myself supporting a company that doesn't care about its own game and are in blatant "cash grab mode."

For the apologists out there that are telling the people voicing criticisms to 'go away,' I don't think you fully realize what's happening here. You're asking people like me, who might have been playing since RT, to never come back to a game they've been playing for twenty years or so. For them, the game has turned into one they no longer enjoy. I'm shelving my armies with the hopes that 40k will come back to being good. I want that to happen. I want to see new, shiny plastic Sisters of Battle, put them together and then bring them to a game for the first time. I love that stuff.

So, don't call me a hater. I love 40k but I can't support what GW is doing with it.
And one day you may get your wish and find yourself with your unbound demons summoning army, alone in a store hoping someone else comes along while everyone else is playing X-wing, warmachine, Infinity, Dust, etc.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I I don't think you fully realize what's happening here. You're asking people like me, who might have been playing since RT, to never come back to a game they've been playing for twenty years or so. For them, the game has turned into one they no longer enjoy. I'm shelving my armies with the hopes that 40k will come back to being good.

And one day you may get your wish and find yourself with your unbound demons summoning army, alone in a store hoping someone else comes along while everyone else is playing X-wing, warmachine, Infinity, Dust, etc.

So melodramatic. Who's asking people to never come back after 20 years? We're saying that if some one tells us they're leaving to stop coming back and telling us why they're leaving, again, and again, and again... just leave already.

If the game's turned into something you no longer enjoy, why not expend a minimal effort to turn it back? I'd rather the community give G'dub an "up yours", and unite with rules we can all enjoy and accept. We could enact some positive peer pressure and move the game our own direction (like most TOs will have to for GTs anyway). Axis and Allis Minis, Magic, CAV players, to name a few, have all done this... why are we shackled to the drama and emotion of 2 or 3 idiotic rules in an otherwise very strong ruleset and game? Limit invulns/rerolls, enact good FoC guidelines, moderate summoning... done.

And no one here (this thread) wants unbound, no one wants unlimited summoning, so stop hoisting that strawman. I've repeatedly and clearly said. "Ditch the dumb crap, make pretty universally accepted guidelines, have fun, voice your displeasure at the GW morons". Somehow that makes me a white knight who wants people to leave and likes unbound lists... whatever.



Go ahead and take away quickpost again if wanting people to man up and enjoy the game that this site draws more from than any other somehow is impolite.

Listen, peope will make whatever they want of the game. Some people like to be really strict to the rules, others don't care about winning and just use the rules as a template for games. You can't post saying people should be more into houserules and expect all this not to happen.

One thing to know is this: Most people that play Warhammer and Warhammer 40k are CASUAL, but it's just the INTERNET that is dominated by the competeive scene. In real life it's easer to make a point about this, but on the internet you can't do this and not expect people to get emotional. This hobby is a big part of us.

The life blood of most games will always be alive and it's amlost always pioneered by the guys and gals who play older editions and use whatever codex/army book they want.. Just look at the OLDHAMMER community.

Dont quit the game, just play by another edition... no one is saying you can't, but if you don't have a group to do that with, I highly DOUBT that if i bring my 3rd edition Dark Eldar codex to a pick up game my opponent will care.

Just a thought because most warhammer and 40k players think its impossible to mix aand play other editions. Love the game, but dont quit Just because its a new edition.

On the other hand, listen to other people's critcism and play your own way.

I pre ordered my 7th edition book, I think it sounds cool. I love the idea of unbound because i like thematic armies and games, BUT i still play Rogue Trader, 3rd and 4th edition if I dont feel like it, even with my new codex books.

 FJ wrote:

One thing to know is this: Most people that play Warhammer and Warhammer 40k are CASUAL, but it's just the INTERNET that is dominated by the competeive scene. In real life it's easer to make a point about this, but on the internet you can't do this and not expect people to get emotional. This hobby is a big part of us.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and ask for some numbers.

Further, define casual. Plenty of people 'casually' go to tournaments/leagues just to get in a lot of games against nicely painted armies on nice tables. Further, how is the internet any more dominated by the 'competitive' scene than it is by the 'casual' scene.

 Lobukia wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I I don't think you fully realize what's happening here. You're asking people like me, who might have been playing since RT, to never come back to a game they've been playing for twenty years or so. For them, the game has turned into one they no longer enjoy. I'm shelving my armies with the hopes that 40k will come back to being good.

And one day you may get your wish and find yourself with your unbound demons summoning army, alone in a store hoping someone else comes along while everyone else is playing X-wing, warmachine, Infinity, Dust, etc.

So melodramatic. Who's asking people to never come back after 20 years? We're saying that if some one tells us they're leaving to stop coming back and telling us why they're leaving, again, and again, and again... just leave already.

If the game's turned into something you no longer enjoy, why not expend a minimal effort to turn it back? I'd rather the community give G'dub an "up yours", and unite with rules we can all enjoy and accept. We could enact some positive peer pressure and move the game our own direction (like most TOs will have to for GTs anyway). Axis and Allis Minis, Magic, CAV players, to name a few, have all done this... why are we shackled to the drama and emotion of 2 or 3 idiotic rules in an otherwise very strong ruleset and game? Limit invulns/rerolls, enact good FoC guidelines, moderate summoning... done.

And no one here (this thread) wants unbound, no one wants unlimited summoning, so stop hoisting that strawman. I've repeatedly and clearly said. "Ditch the dumb crap, make pretty universally accepted guidelines, have fun, voice your displeasure at the GW morons". Somehow that makes me a white knight who wants people to leave and likes unbound lists... whatever.



Go ahead and take away quickpost again if wanting people to man up and enjoy the game that this site draws more from than any other somehow is impolite.

When you tell people to just leave, that's telling them you don't want them back. Maybe that's not what you meant but that's how it comes across.
In pick up games I can't house rule stuff, so "fixing the game" isn't really an option. And it I shouldn't have to fix it.

And let me just take a moment for this: "man up and enjoy the game?" I'm getting the opposite. Playing a game by a company that actively ignores the players and doesn't even like them, makes rushed out rules just for money grabs, isn't "manning up." It's more like being GW's lap dog. Man up and keep playing a game that sucks. LOL! You have strange ideas that come from you playing in a group of like-minded people where you can work together to fix the rules. I don't have that luxury.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I I don't think you fully realize what's happening here. You're asking people like me, who might have been playing since RT, to never come back to a game they've been playing for twenty years or so. For them, the game has turned into one they no longer enjoy. I'm shelving my armies with the hopes that 40k will come back to being good.

And one day you may get your wish and find yourself with your unbound demons summoning army, alone in a store hoping someone else comes along while everyone else is playing X-wing, warmachine, Infinity, Dust, etc.

So melodramatic. Who's asking people to never come back after 20 years? We're saying that if some one tells us they're leaving to stop coming back and telling us why they're leaving, again, and again, and again... just leave already.

If the game's turned into something you no longer enjoy, why not expend a minimal effort to turn it back? I'd rather the community give G'dub an "up yours", and unite with rules we can all enjoy and accept. We could enact some positive peer pressure and move the game our own direction (like most TOs will have to for GTs anyway). Axis and Allis Minis, Magic, CAV players, to name a few, have all done this... why are we shackled to the drama and emotion of 2 or 3 idiotic rules in an otherwise very strong ruleset and game? Limit invulns/rerolls, enact good FoC guidelines, moderate summoning... done.

And no one here (this thread) wants unbound, no one wants unlimited summoning, so stop hoisting that strawman. I've repeatedly and clearly said. "Ditch the dumb crap, make pretty universally accepted guidelines, have fun, voice your displeasure at the GW morons". Somehow that makes me a white knight who wants people to leave and likes unbound lists... whatever.



Go ahead and take away quickpost again if wanting people to man up and enjoy the game that this site draws more from than any other somehow is impolite.

When you tell people to just leave, that's telling them you don't want them back. Maybe that's not what you meant but that's how it comes across.
In pick up games I can't house rule stuff, so "fixing the game" isn't really an option. And it I shouldn't have to fix it.

And let me just take a moment for this: "man up and enjoy the game?" I'm getting the opposite. Playing a game by a company that actively ignores the players and doesn't even like them, makes rushed out rules just for money grabs, isn't "manning up." It's more like being GW's lap dog. Man up and keep playing a game that sucks. LOL! You have strange ideas that come from you playing in a group of like-minded people where you can work together to fix the rules. I don't have that luxury.

Seconded, the people that truly suffered from this edition are the players that don't have a group or friends to play with the ones that rely on pick-up games.