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A boosted-up Avatar would be bossy, wouldn't it? A massive, DoWII-sized-if-not-bigged Avatar that goes around wrestling with Heirophants and stuff.

Something like several Avatars uniting into one form to combat an especially threatening foe.

'The time as a plot-punching-bag is over, mother-fether.'

So yes, my idea:

Firstborn Avatar

Type: Gargantuan Creature

WS10 BS10 S9 T8 W8 I10 A7 LD10 SV3+/3++

Wargear: The Wailing Doom

Special Rules: Inspiring Presence, Molten Body, Fearless, Daemon, Eternal Warrior, Ancient Doom, Fleet, Battle Focus, Bloody-Handed God, Khaine's Wrath

The Wailing Doom:
Range: melee. S: +1, AP1, Murder Blow
Range:18" S:10 AP1 Type: Heavy 1, Armourbane, Ruination

Murder Blow: If the Avatar chooses to make a Smash attack, this attack has the Destroyer special rule.

Ruination: This weapon is fired in the same way as a Beam psychic power (Though it obviously does not consume Warp charges or require a psychic test and it can't be countered), however every hit is resolved at the weapon's full Strength instead of decreasing.

Bloody-Handed God: Once per Eldar turn, the Avatar may grant one of the following special rules to himself or a single Eldar unit within 12" : Furious Charge, Hatred, Rage.

Inspiring Presence: All Eldar within 24" of the Avatar gain the Fearless special rule.

Molten Body: The Avatar is immune to all weapons with the Melta rule, Plasma weapons, and weapons that are described as flaming (including inferno pistols, hand flamers, incinerators, flamestorm cannons, Ork burnas, pyrovore flamespurts etc).

At the end of every Assault phase, all models within 3" except the Avatar himself suffer a S5 AP4 hit.

Khaine's Wrath: The Avatar may only make a single Stomp attack, and it must be placed centred over the Avatar himself. This attack is made using the massive blast marker.


As for points, I'd guess around 600, based on the Transcendent C'tan.

Seems pretty reasonable overall and I'd definitely play against it.

The 3++ makes it a pain to get rid of, but it's threat range is very short. And when you're that big and that much of an absolutely must die at all costs unit, getting into melee can be quite hard.

In terms of Apocalypse or LOWs, either the Heirodule is overcosted or the Transcendant C'tan is undercosted despite not being too far away from one another in price range, or perhaps both. A bit of a price bump may be needed, but overall he's rather sensible.

 Kain wrote:
Seems pretty reasonable overall and I'd definitely play against it.

The 3++ makes it a pain to get rid of, but it's threat range is very short. And when you're that big and that much of an absolutely must die at all costs unit, getting into melee can be quite hard.

In terms of Apocalypse or LOWs, either the Heirodule is overcosted or the Transcendant C'tan is undercosted despite not being too far away from one another in price range, or perhaps both. A bit of a price bump may be needed, but overall he's rather sensible.

Precisely. He is one hell of a hammer if you throw him into a big swirling melee, but he needs to close in before he can deal any damage, and D weapons are very effective against him.

I still think about IKs though. With 7 WS10 S10 attacks he'll rip Knights a new one in melee but they actually deal more damage per strike than he does, which seems a little weird. He is supposed to be huge.

But yea, superheavy walkers VS Gargantuans are not very balanced as-is...

I agree that Heirodules need a price drop. They cost what, twice as much as a WK for the same statline?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Seems pretty reasonable overall and I'd definitely play against it.

The 3++ makes it a pain to get rid of, but it's threat range is very short. And when you're that big and that much of an absolutely must die at all costs unit, getting into melee can be quite hard.

In terms of Apocalypse or LOWs, either the Heirodule is overcosted or the Transcendant C'tan is undercosted despite not being too far away from one another in price range, or perhaps both. A bit of a price bump may be needed, but overall he's rather sensible.

Precisely. He is one hell of a hammer if you throw him into a big swirling melee, but he needs to close in before he can deal any damage, and D weapons are very effective against him.

I still think about IKs though. With 7 WS10 S10 attacks he'll rip Knights a new one in melee but they actually deal more damage per strike than he does, which seems a little weird. He is supposed to be huge.

But yea, superheavy walkers VS Gargantuans are not very balanced as-is...

I agree that Heirodules need a price drop. They cost what, twice as much as a WK for the same statline?

Superheavy vehicles also tend to have far more HPs to burn for their points than Gargantuan creatures have wounds. I don't think any GC has more than ten wounds, but there certainly are superheavies with more than ten hull points. And there's no real GC that can match patent absurdity like the Wolverine Stompa that can recover from anything that does not kill it in one turn or the lethal firepower of a maximum D-weapon reaver.

As for D-weapons on superheavies, yeah those are a bit of an oddity. Perhaps the Avatar can have rerolls to pen and wound in assault to balance it out slightly? He should still beat the knight, but he should be very careful when dealing with Chainfist Reavers (which if I'm not mistaken; are rather mean in assault)

And you got the pricing on Heirodules right.

Don't worry, an Iron Hands invici-chapter master or Darnath Lysander will look badass while killing it. Because they clearly must only exist for other people to kick around to look awesome.

Consider that for a similar price; you can have a d-weapon spamming Warhound or a Transcendant C'tan.

Someone's getting screwed here.

Reavers with melee weapons seem rather pathetic to me. Very few attacks, low WS. That's it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Reavers with melee weapons seem rather pathetic to me. Very few attacks, low WS. That's it.

Better than the Khornate Warlord Titan which has no idea what it wants to do and thus suffers heavily from Defiler syndrome.

Why is he weaker than a Wraithknight?

I'd drop the twoup. At T8 he's very rarely going t need it, so you might as well give weapons without AP2 a chance at hurting him - especially if things like melta and plasma are out of the picture.

This has the side effect of making him less susceptible to grav.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Why is he weaker than a Wraithknight?

I'd drop the twoup. At T8 he's very rarely going t need it, so you might as well give weapons without AP2 a chance at hurting him - especially if things like melta and plasma are out of the picture.

This has the side effect of making him less susceptible to grav.

Gargantuan creatures were, by and large; statted to very different standards than what exist now.

Hence why the Heirodule is a pansy for it's points cost.

It was big and scary...way back in 4e when a single bloodthirster was considered bad news rather than just Tuesday and a Hive Tyrant ranked in the top ten scariest things you could see in melee.

Her statline is akin to older GCs that came before a time when anyone would have thought that a T8 six wound S10 model with six attacks would ever grace standard 40k.

Albeit it would be on the 1200 point Heirophant.

Though the Heirophant's price tag I believe, comes more from it's guns (which are no longer particularly impressive).

In any case, I think a 3+ would be good.

It'd still have an armor save to fear the weight of fire that ignores it's toughness that grav-guns put out, but also be a little vulnerable to the likes of Krak missiles.

Bit of a long shot, but you could probably take some wounds off with long fangs.

Okay, I'll make it 3+.

Keep the 3++ or not?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Okay, I'll make it 3+.

Keep the 3++ or not?

Sure, why not?

Against things that can punch at his level there's a chance that it'll be ignored anyway (of course it that does happen he's toast due to the ridiculous power of deathblows) so he may as well have some insurance to get into melee and use his beefy stats there.

Does this Avatar have the same access to Exarch powers that the smaller one does?

Disarming strike would be rather awe inspiring to conceptualize on someone this big.

This looks friggin sick.
I think 600 would be way undershooting going by the Four Daemon Lords though.

 Kain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Okay, I'll make it 3+.

Keep the 3++ or not?

Sure, why not?

Against things that can punch at his level there's a chance that it'll be ignored anyway (of course it that does happen he's toast due to the ridiculous power of deathblows) so he may as well have some insurance to get into melee and use his beefy stats there.

Does this Avatar have the same access to Exarch powers that the smaller one does?

Disarming strike would be rather awe inspiring to conceptualize on someone this big.

I am considering it. It would be nice if he could take exarch powers, naturally at 5x the cost or something.

Imagine Fast Shot with Wailing Doom though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
This looks friggin sick.
I think 600 would be way undershooting going by the Four Daemon Lords though.

No idea of their profiles.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Okay, I'll make it 3+.

Keep the 3++ or not?

Sure, why not?

Against things that can punch at his level there's a chance that it'll be ignored anyway (of course it that does happen he's toast due to the ridiculous power of deathblows) so he may as well have some insurance to get into melee and use his beefy stats there.

Does this Avatar have the same access to Exarch powers that the smaller one does?

Disarming strike would be rather awe inspiring to conceptualize on someone this big.

I am considering it. It would be nice if he could take exarch powers, naturally at 5x the cost or something.

Imagine Fast Shot with Wailing Doom though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
This looks friggin sick.
I think 600 would be way undershooting going by the Four Daemon Lords though.

No idea of their profiles.

An'ggrath is basically the same as this, minus the cool buffing ability and massive blast, and with less initiative, and without melta. And he's 888 points.

He can fly though, can't he?

Which is really, really good now that he will only risk one grounding test per turn.

Isn't he seen as overcosted anyway?

 Ashiraya wrote:
He can fly though, can't he?

Which is really, really good now that he will only risk one grounding test per turn.

Isn't he seen as overcosted anyway?

He's still incredibly powerful by non apoc standards, and with the sicaran, and now with the Fire Raptor (an auto include) flight is kind of a gak defense.
I think this also has more base attacks.
There's also the slaanesh greater daemon, who's seen as good, with no armor T6 and W6, ignoring invuls in CC, who costs 666.

What's the thinking behind molten body also effecting plasma weapons? I would be happy with it making him immune to Melta and Flame based weapons but I think plasma is a bit too far.

PastelAvenger wrote:
What's the thinking behind molten body also effecting plasma weapons? I would be happy with it making him immune to Melta and Flame based weapons but I think plasma is a bit too far.

Plasma is heat based.
Vulkan's Basically immune to that too.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
This looks friggin sick.
I think 600 would be way undershooting going by the Four Daemon Lords though.

The Daemon lords are overcosted for the sake of having costs that have their god's holy number repeated thrice.

^ That. If you think his price should be changed, compare him to what is appropriately priced.

while the overall idea is totally awesome, and an avatar the size of a titan would be the most badass thing to ever enter the fray of an apoc battle, i do have a little problem....


him being immune to melta and plasma, in addition to t8 and 3++, i look at my armies... ...and realize that my entire combined army, 24,000 points of SM and IG, have NOTHING to harm this 600pt dude.
except for the three cute little centurions.



tell me one thing, while i really like the idea overall:
how in the emprahs name is an army without D-weapons supposed to harm him? like, at all?

 FistusMaximus wrote:
while the overall idea is totally awesome, and an avatar the size of a titan would be the most badass thing to ever enter the fray of an apoc battle, i do have a little problem....


him being immune to melta and plasma, in addition to t8 and 3++, i look at my armies... ...and realize that my entire combined army, 24,000 points of SM and IG, have NOTHING to harm this 600pt dude.
except for the three cute little centurions.



tell me one thing, while i really like the idea overall:
how in the emprahs name is an army without D-weapons supposed to harm him? like, at all?

You don't have anything like lascannons or missile launchers?

 Grimskul wrote:

You don't have anything like lascannons or missile launchers?

i do, but not the massive amount i'd need. there is the problem with the 3++, ya know.....

Mind you, you dug up a thread from back in May, when D-weapons were a fair bit scarier than they are now.

This guy is also only intended for large-scale Apocalypse battles. It would be wrong from a fluff standpoint to have him in an unbound 750 pt escalation game, and it would not be a very fun game either.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Mind you, you dug up a thread from back in May, when D-weapons were a fair bit scarier than they are now.

This guy is also only intended for large-scale Apocalypse battles. It would be wrong from a fluff standpoint to have him in an unbound 750 pt escalation game, and it would not be a very fun game either.

well, you did link to this thread just two days ago, so don't blame me!

i know its intended for larger battles, i even mentioned my 24,000 points, i do not consider that "small-scale battle", do you?

my question still stands, how do i kill that thing without D weapons? (which are even less good now... meh )

Smashfether.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Smashfether.

smashwhat? sorry, stupid non-native english speaker here

edit: just saw you aren't either, but apparently you still are better

I'ts not English, it's just a fanmade term. Clan Raukaan Iron Hands Chapter Master on bike with Gorgon's Chain, Thunder Hammer and Artificer Armour.

Rock-hard character that selfheals and can take on the largest monsters, especially together with Smashbane (Similar but normal Chapter Master with the above gear except with a Burning Blade and Shield Eternal)

He doesn't have to be Iron Hands, he is just best that way. Can make him any chapter.

Alternatively, D-weapons, grav-weapons or lots of lascannons and missile launchers.

ooh, smashf**er, now i get it

well, i am thinking units that i have, not units that i'd need to buy just to defeat that one thing my opponent brings (that has some kinda pay to win feeling to it, something i really despise)

honestly, for me its more about the points for its resilience, not the resilience itself.
taking into account how much dakka i'd need to bring it down, compared to a mere 600 points.... damn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
grav-weapons

thought about them, i have some at my disposal; but how am i supposed to get them within 24", when there is a high chance that just about everything infantry-related the eldar bring will be grouped around him? together with fleet and battle focus.... ouch.

I could always increase his points if it is a problem.

Do remember that different armies will have different problems. Dark Eldar will have an extremely easy time taking him out, between darklight weaponry and massed poison.

He may well be too cheap for 7th though, looking at the Tyranid GCs.

one thing is, as long as you do not roll sixes for the stomp attack, i may have one unit that, while maybe not having the highest chance of actually killing it, will at least tie it up for a LONG time....

my "murder squad", the SM chapter command formation, consisting of only captains.... so far, mine comes out at 11 captains, my chapter master, an apothecary, and two librarians. bearing all chapter relics possible.
yes, that might work