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Tekron wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Anyway, back on topic,
So to clarify, are you saying that the S10 turboshot cannot applied to the chariot, or to the rider? Because one of those seems wrong.

I'm saying against the chariot, it counts as S10. Against the rider, it is S:X Sniper, doing D3 wounds.

"Turbo-penetrator: Against vehicles, shots from a turbo-penetrator round count as Strength 10. Against all other targets, shots from a turbo-penetrator round inflict D3 Wounds, rather than just 1."

In the case of chariot, you do not have two models or two units. You have one model and one unit. It is a vehicle (chariot).

The ammo checks the type of model it is hitting (is this thing I am hitting a vehicle?). It finds that it is a vehicle.

col_impact wrote:

In order for you to get what you want, there would have to be specific permission along the lines of "treat any special rules being triggered in the resolution of hits and wounds against the rider profle as being resolved against unit type infantry"

For me to get what I want, the rider must maintain his non-vehicle characteristic profile, including unit type, i.e. Infantry (Character).

The chariot rules do not remove the unit type of the rider at any time. The rider is mounted on the chariot and unable to disembark. The chariot rules do say the model has a dual-profile. The rules also say unit type is an extension of the characteristic profile, therefore the model has dual unit types as part of the dual profile.

The rider must maintain Infantry (Character) otherwise it is unable to issue or accept challenges.

BRB: "Challenges
A rider who is a character can issue or accept a challenge as normal, but cannot perform a Glorious Intervention."

If the rider is still a character, then the rider is still infantry. You can't separate them.

col_impact wrote:

Tekron wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Anyway, back on topic,
So to clarify, are you saying that the S10 turboshot cannot applied to the chariot, or to the rider? Because one of those seems wrong.

I'm saying against the chariot, it counts as S10. Against the rider, it is S:X Sniper, doing D3 wounds.

"Turbo-penetrator: Against vehicles, shots from a turbo-penetrator round count as Strength 10. Against all other targets, shots from a turbo-penetrator round inflict D3 Wounds, rather than just 1."

In the case of chariot, you do not have two models or two units. You have one model and one unit. It is a vehicle (chariot).

The ammo checks the type of model it is hitting (is this thing I am hitting a vehicle?). It finds that it is a vehicle.

Yeah, as odd and counter-intuitive as it may seem, the chariot rules do not specify that there is a difference between the rider and chariot unit types.

You'd think that the rider would be infantry, but sadly, the rules do not make that distinction.

It's one of those things that could have been fixed if the Design team would have been arsed to add just one more sentence.
Like, "The rider has unit type - Infantry, for the purposes of wound allocation. The chariot unit still consists of 1 model"

col_impact wrote:

In the case of chariot, you do not have two models or two units. You have one model and one unit. It is a vehicle (chariot).

The ammo checks the type of model it is hitting (is this thing I am hitting a vehicle?). It finds that it is a vehicle.

One model, one unit, two profiles, two unit types.

The ammo checks the characteristic profile, because BRB: "unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile".

Tekron wrote:

col_impact wrote:

In order for you to get what you want, there would have to be specific permission along the lines of "treat any special rules being triggered in the resolution of hits and wounds against the rider profle as being resolved against unit type infantry"

For me to get what I want, the rider must maintain his non-vehicle characteristic profile, including unit type, i.e. Infantry (Character).

The chariot rules do not remove the unit type of the rider at any time. The rider is mounted on the chariot and unable to disembark. The chariot rules do say the model has a dual-profile. The rules also say unit type is an extension of the characteristic profile, therefore the model has dual unit types as part of the dual profile.

The rider must maintain Infantry (Character) otherwise it is unable to issue or accept challenges.

BRB: "Challenges
A rider who is a character can issue or accept a challenge as normal, but cannot perform a Glorious Intervention."

If the rider is still a character, then the rider is still infantry. You can't separate them.

There are vehicle characters. "Character" does not require "infantry".

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, as odd and counter-intuitive as it may seem, the chariot rules do not specify that there is a difference between the rider and chariot unit types.

You'd think that the rider would be infantry, but sadly, the rules do not make that distinction.

It's one of those things that could have been fixed if the Design team would have been arsed to add just one more sentence.
Like, "The rider has unit type - Infantry, for the purposes of wound allocation. The chariot unit still consists of 1 model"

They wouldn't add that because there is nothing stopping them allowing a MC or anything else riding a chariot. A DP on a chariot for example would be fairly straightforward. The MC would still retain the MC unit type and all the rules associated with it (e.g. Smash).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

There are vehicle characters. "Character" does not require "infantry".

The CCB does not have the "Character" unit type, only the Overlord does.

Tekron wrote:

col_impact wrote:

In the case of chariot, you do not have two models or two units. You have one model and one unit. It is a vehicle (chariot).

The ammo checks the type of model it is hitting (is this thing I am hitting a vehicle?). It finds that it is a vehicle.

One model, one unit, two profiles, two unit types.

The ammo checks the characteristic profile, because BRB: "unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile".

We are told that a Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile and that it is always treated as a single model.

Unit. Dual profile. Single model.

col_impact wrote:
In the case of chariot, you do not have two models or two units. You have one model and one unit. It is a vehicle (chariot).
The ammo checks the type of model it is hitting (is this thing I am hitting a vehicle?). It finds that it is a vehicle.

I wouldn't have any issue playing it like that.
I'd simply ask my opponent to roll his Armour Penetration against my Overlord and then laugh as it cannot lose a Hull Point.

Kangodo wrote:

col_impact wrote:
In the case of chariot, you do not have two models or two units. You have one model and one unit. It is a vehicle (chariot).
The ammo checks the type of model it is hitting (is this thing I am hitting a vehicle?). It finds that it is a vehicle.

I wouldn't have any issue playing it like that.
I'd simply ask my opponent to roll his Armour Penetration against my Overlord and then laugh as it cannot lose a Hull Point.

You resolve the hits per the Chariot rules. The ammo just says its a S10 hit since it is hitting a vehicle.

col_impact wrote:

Tekron wrote:

col_impact wrote:

In the case of chariot, you do not have two models or two units. You have one model and one unit. It is a vehicle (chariot).

The ammo checks the type of model it is hitting (is this thing I am hitting a vehicle?). It finds that it is a vehicle.

One model, one unit, two profiles, two unit types.

The ammo checks the characteristic profile, because BRB: "unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile".

We are told that a Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile and that it is always treated as a single model.

Unit. Dual profile. Single model.

You don't shoot a model, you shoot a unit. The unit has a dual profile and therefore dual unit types because "unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile".

Tekron wrote:



The CCB does not have the "Character" unit type, only the Overlord does.

The overlord has the Independent Character special rule which it can exercise.

2 out of the 3 chariots specify that the rider loses the IC special rule. The CCB is not one of them.

col_impact wrote:
You resolve the hits per the Chariot rules. The ammo just says its a S10 hit since it is hitting a vehicle.

And at the time of resolving, are you resolving it against a Vehicle or Infantry?

Anyway, enough of this, the first person that wants to try using S10 against the Overlord can probably pick up his stuff and get out of any FLGS.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/15.page
That's where we can have discussions for the sake of discussing, since it's quite clear how this rule is supposed to work.

col_impact wrote:

Tekron wrote:



The CCB does not have the "Character" unit type, only the Overlord does.

The overlord has the Independent Character special rule which it can exercise.

2 out of the 3 chariots specify that the rider loses the IC special rule. The CCB is not one of them.

If the Overlord retains his special rules and wargear then he maintains his unit type. Independent Character does not confer the Character unit type. The Character may have the IC special rule.

Look, I am not against what you guys are wanting. It's just clear that the ammo is only checking what it is hitting and is not given permission to check one of the two profiles. It probably should be allowed to. But it isn't allowed by the rules we are given. I am just pointing out RAW, not HYWPI.

The chariot is not one model with two unit types. It is an unusual unit with a dual profile that is treated as a single model.

Getting back to topic:

Necrons do not even need to buy the Assassin models - just convert Deathmarks to look distinct from regular Deathmarks and you already got yourself some badass Assassins

I was thinking of that too.
But then I decided that it would be weird to have a Necron-looking model that is 'Come the Apocalypse' and has to deploy away from them.
I'm fairly sure that using Necron-models would make me forget that every single battle.

Kangodo wrote:
I was thinking of that too.
But then I decided that it would be weird to have a Necron-looking model that is 'Come the Apocalypse' and has to deploy away from them.
I'm fairly sure that using Necron-models would make me forget that every single battle.

Just gotta make it look more distinct

I would totally take a anti-Psyker assassin though. Just because!

col_impact wrote:
Look, I am not against what you guys are wanting. It's just clear that the ammo is only checking what it is hitting and is not given permission to check one of the two profiles. It probably should be allowed to. But it isn't allowed by the rules we are given. I am just pointing out RAW, not HYWPI.

The chariot is not one model with two unit types. It is an unusual unit with a dual profile that is treated as a single model.

I promise I am arguing RAW, it's why I keep quoting the rules.

A vehicle is a vehicle by virtue of its unit type. If we cannot check the profile then we cannot check the unit type (which is an extension of the profile), so we have no way of knowing what we are hitting.

The unit does have dual unit types because it has a dual profile, and the rider component does not lose it's unit type anywhere in the chariot rules.

col_impact wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Deadshot sees your scarab wall and laughs.

Read the Deadshot rule carefully. It gives Precision Shot special rule to hits. Then read Precision Shots special rule. It says "If a model with this special rule rolls a 6 To Hit with a shooting weapn, that shot is a 'Precision Shot'"

This seems to be a case of bad rule-writing. The roll of 6 is hard-coded into the Precision Shots USR, so when Deadshot re-applies it, the roll of 6 is still being required.

I bolded the relevant counter-point. If the shot has already hit, as per Deadshot, then how does the hitting portion of the PS have any say?

I see it as:

>You fire
>you hit
>Deadshot executes, granting you the precision shot
>you resolve the wound against the model of your choice, as per PS, as you cannot roll to hit again

 IHateNids wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Deadshot sees your scarab wall and laughs.

Read the Deadshot rule carefully. It gives Precision Shot special rule to hits. Then read Precision Shots special rule. It says "If a model with this special rule rolls a 6 To Hit with a shooting weapn, that shot is a 'Precision Shot'"

This seems to be a case of bad rule-writing. The roll of 6 is hard-coded into the Precision Shots USR, so when Deadshot re-applies it, the roll of 6 is still being required.

I bolded the relevant counter-point. If the shot has already hit, as per Deadshot, then how does the hitting portion of the PS have any say?

I see it as:

>You fire
>you hit
>Deadshot executes, granting you the precision shot
>you resolve the wound against the model of your choice, as per PS, as you cannot roll to hit again

There's a lot of bad rule-writing involved. But you and I can make out a RAI and I agree that Deadshot is intended to have those successful hits be considered as successful Precision Shots (and not just have the Precision Shots special rule)

 jy2 wrote:
That's not how it works. If a hit causes Instant Death, even if the target is immune to Instant Death (i.e. Eternal Warrior or some other special rules), then no FNP may be taken. I believe it is under FNP, though I don't have my book with me right now to check.

Good to know.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Speaking of assassins, I noticed that the callidus can ignore invulnerable saves again.

Hopefully this means crons will be able to next codex release.

... How did you make a logical jump from Callidus ignoring inv saves to the 'Cron codex coming out next?

(btw, there's been nothing remotely reliable to say Necrons are next. Check the rumor thread. It was shut down because it was nothing but idle speculation)

 skoffs wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Speaking of assassins, I noticed that the callidus can ignore invulnerable saves again.

Hopefully this means crons will be able to next codex release.

... How did you make a logical jump from Callidus ignoring inv saves to the 'Cron codex coming out next?

(btw, there's been nothing remotely reliable to say Necrons are next. Check the rumor thread. It was shut down because it was nothing but idle speculation)

Sorry, I wasn't clear.
I meant their next codex release. Not that they are the next army to be updated.
I was in a hurry. >.<

Im totally converting Flayed Ones into Culexus assassins.
its begging for it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Speaking of assassins, I noticed that the callidus can ignore invulnerable saves again.

Hopefully this means crons will be able to next codex release.

... How did you make a logical jump from Callidus ignoring inv saves to the 'Cron codex coming out next?

(btw, there's been nothing remotely reliable to say Necrons are next. Check the rumor thread. It was shut down because it was nothing but idle speculation)

Sorry, I wasn't clear.
I meant their next codex release. Not that they are the next army to be updated.
I was in a hurry. >.<

Ah, yes, I see it now. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

Now in regards to Assassin usage, obviously you're going to want the anti-psyker to get close to the psyker units as quick as he can... but how do you do so with Necrons? Obviously he can't use our means of quick transport.

 skoffs wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Speaking of assassins, I noticed that the callidus can ignore invulnerable saves again.

Hopefully this means crons will be able to next codex release.

... How did you make a logical jump from Callidus ignoring inv saves to the 'Cron codex coming out next?

(btw, there's been nothing remotely reliable to say Necrons are next. Check the rumor thread. It was shut down because it was nothing but idle speculation)

I think he means that in the previous codex Warscythes ignored Invulns? I doubt that would ever happen, since we're not apart of the Imperium, and even though we field C'Tans, we don't get C'Tan phase blades. So no, we won't be getting anything that ignores invulns.

 skoffs wrote:
Now in regards to Assassin usage, obviously you're going to want the anti-psyker to get close to the psyker units as quick as he can... but how do you do so with Necrons? Obviously he can't use our means of quick transport.

Infiltrate
I wouldn't be too afraid of first turn shooting, since they all fire at BS1

Kangodo wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Now in regards to Assassin usage, obviously you're going to want the anti-psyker to get close to the psyker units as quick as he can... but how do you do so with Necrons? Obviously he can't use our means of quick transport.

Infiltrate
I wouldn't be too afraid of first turn shooting, since they all fire at BS1

Okay, so realistically, what does he have to fear the most?
How would most people expect the first few turns to go down, using him?

 skoffs wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Now in regards to Assassin usage, obviously you're going to want the anti-psyker to get close to the psyker units as quick as he can... but how do you do so with Necrons? Obviously he can't use our means of quick transport.

Infiltrate
I wouldn't be too afraid of first turn shooting, since they all fire at BS1

Okay, so realistically, what does he have to fear the most?
How would most people expect the first few turns to go down, using him?

His biggest fears should be twin linked Tesla and Death Rays.

3W on T4 with 4++ and BS1.
You would need 72 Bolter-shots to take him down. That are 108 if you hide him somewhere with 3+ cover.
Anything with S8 would need 14.4 shots against his 4++ or 21.6 if you can use 3+ cover.

The 'funny' part is that Annihilation Barges are actually quite good against him.
Two of them can (statistically) take him down in one turn of shooting.
But most armies don't have Tesla and Twin-linked on 90-point units.
And we wouldn't even care about him.

His biggest fear would probably be 'bad dice'.
And if you infiltrate him you have to make sure that your opponent won't charge him in his first turn, that could be dangerous too.
You always want the charge.
You want to walk in, shoot 4-5 S5, AP1-shots and then you want to assault them with Culexus.
That would cause so much problems for your opponent that the rest of your army can probably walk in safely and do their thing.

And what Galorian said, this guy is scared to death of Tesla Destructors.
Two of them will put out 3.06 wounds because we don't care about his 4++ and we hardly care about the BS1.