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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 17:09:19
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Requizen wrote: NecronLord3 wrote:A chariot is treated as one model, the model purchases the phase shifter. The CCB is wargear, as much as the Warscythe. That is RAW.
Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly.
I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb.
You don't get an armor save when allocating hits against the vehicle profile, so in this case the sempiternal weave is categorically irrelevant for the vehicle profile.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 17:12:17
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Requizen wrote: NecronLord3 wrote:A chariot is treated as one model, the model purchases the phase shifter. The CCB is wargear, as much as the Warscythe. That is RAW. Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly. I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb. RAW you take Armour Saves against Wounds, not Glancing/Penetrating Hits EDIT: Ninja'd,gah.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 17:12:44
YMDC = nightmare |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 17:26:05
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
Netherlands
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Requizen wrote:Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly.
Yes, it has a 2+ Armour Save.
But since you never roll to Wound, it is quite useless.
I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb
Aah, okay, then don't.
Do you also refuse to convince your opponent that your weapons have a 24" range?
And why is it dumb? It's quite annoying if people use the ' WAAC'-card when all you want to do is to play by the rules as they are.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 17:39:11
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Well anyway. The UK GT is not allowing it, as I mentioned. I'm sure it'll be made clearer in the next dex. And Stormteks will probably go up in points.
So anyone else running wraiths at the moment?
And how about Pylon Star at tournaments? Has anyone taken one in a competitive setting yet?
Guy I know just won a tournament with CCBs (3++ not allowed by tournament, but taken for rider). Stormteks. D&D squads. Doom Schthe. A Barges. No ghost arks.
Are we feeling that our initial 7th edition passion for the big boats is dropping off?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 18:10:40
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Kangodo wrote:Requizen wrote:Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly.
Yes, it has a 2+ Armour Save.
But since you never roll to Wound, it is quite useless.
Oversight on my part.
I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb
Aah, okay, then don't.
Do you also refuse to convince your opponent that your weapons have a 24" range?
And why is it dumb? It's quite annoying if people use the ' WAAC'-card when all you want to do is to play by the rules as they are.
Don't be churlish. The "rules as they are" is a poor argument. You're trying to rectify rules from a 5th ed, 3 year old codex where Chariots were a completely different type of unit with a new ruleset that was designed with something else in mind when it came to the new unit type. The RAI is pretty much up in the air, and has people on both sides, even among Necron players.
It could be fully intended for the chariot to have the 3++. If GW were to clarify it in that regard I would not cry OP or anything like that. But right now, every tournament and TO I've seen has said it doesn't work like that, and the CCB is still extremely strong without it. I don't want to have to take 10-20 minutes arguing with people at my store, whom I genuinely like, to convince them to make the model that they hate the most in my force even stronger. It's not worth the time or effort and it especially isn't worth causing a tiff when 90% of the time my CCB just styles all over most armies even without being even more invincible.
I would love to have a 3++ invuln save on an AV13 vehicle. It would be just swell, and given the cost of making it, it would probably be fine. But there's no reason to fight about it unless you care more about your Barge Lord being even more powerful than he already is than you do just playing the game with people. I mean sure, if your TO just accepts it at face value, that's one thing, but arguing wording across two books and then using Logan as a corollary example is completely different and you know it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 18:33:16
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Letting the CCB have the 3++ invul barely does anything. Against shooting you can just jink for a 4+ save (and with Solar Pulses and Night Fight its easy to make it 3+) plus you have chariot shenanigans regardless. And in combat almost all attacks are going to be at the rider because he'll be way easier to kill so the CCB well almost never need that 3++ in combat.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/08 18:35:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 18:43:25
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Fixture of Dakka
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CrownAxe wrote:Letting the CCB have the 3++ invul barely does anything. Against shooting you can just jink for a 4+ save (and with Solar Pulses and Night Fight its easy to make it 3+) plus you have chariot shenanigans regardless. And in combat almost all attacks are going to be at the rider because he'll be way easier to kill so the CCB well almost never need that 3++ in combat.
In competitive play, where you see lots of Imperial Knights and wraithknight-dominated Eldar, it makes a world of difference in assault. Actually, playing without the 3++, all the attacks by those units are going to be on the barge.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 18:54:20
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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jy2 wrote:
Here's a better test. Instead of pitting a bargelord up against a wraithknight or blob and instead of pitting Logan up against a unit of 5 assault terminators or Daemon Prince, just pit the bargelord up against Logan and see who kicks whose ass. Haha....
Keep in mind one thing. As I am sure you know, a regular old Necron Overlord that is not riding a barge but is kitted with Mind Shackle Scarabs is an absolute beast in one-on-one CC with other HQ. He is able to prevail against the likes of Abaddon and just about all HQ by crutching on the power of MSS. Without MSS the Necron Overlord is much more in line with his points. So the key to beating the Necron Overlord, whether he is on or off a barge is to take MSS out of the equation. An astute general will know this and will not engage Logan with the bargeLord unless the potency of MSS can be quickly dealt with (by for example running troops in to the one-one-one combat to get into base contact with the bargeLord and thereby dilute the MSS).
Taking mindshackle scarabs out of the equation, the math lines up like this . . .
bargeLord averages 0.75 wounds or hull points per round. Takes 4 rounds to kill vehicle profile and 5 rounds to kill rider profile.
Chariot has 3++ (makes it more profitable for Logan to attack the rider profile)
Logan averages 1 wound per round of CC against the bargeLord. He kills the bargeLord in 3 rounds. 50% chance the bargeLord gets back up.
Chariot does not have 3++ (makes it more profitable for Logan to attack the vehicle profile)
Logan on average destroys the chariot in 2 rounds of CC. It's right on the cusp though of going into 3 rounds of CC with superfluous damage to finish him off. 50% chance the bargeLord gets back up.
So Logan and the bargeLord are very much in line with their points if the bargeLord has an invul save on the chariot profile. A weakness is exposed for the bargeLord if he does not have an invul save on the vehicle profile and will go down really fast to weapons that can exploit this. Chainfists and their cousins are ridiculously effective.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/08 20:21:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 19:01:21
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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jy2 wrote: CrownAxe wrote:Letting the CCB have the 3++ invul barely does anything. Against shooting you can just jink for a 4+ save (and with Solar Pulses and Night Fight its easy to make it 3+) plus you have chariot shenanigans regardless. And in combat almost all attacks are going to be at the rider because he'll be way easier to kill so the CCB well almost never need that 3++ in combat.
In competitive play, where you see lots of Imperial Knights and wraithknight-dominated Eldar, it makes a world of difference in assault. Actually, playing without the 3++, all the attacks by those units are going to be on the barge.
Both of those units are good at killing the CCB in combat regardless of the 3++
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 19:08:07
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Requizen wrote:Kangodo wrote:Requizen wrote:Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly.
Yes, it has a 2+ Armour Save.
But since you never roll to Wound, it is quite useless.
Oversight on my part.
I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb
Aah, okay, then don't.
Do you also refuse to convince your opponent that your weapons have a 24" range?
And why is it dumb? It's quite annoying if people use the ' WAAC'-card when all you want to do is to play by the rules as they are.
Don't be churlish. The "rules as they are" is a poor argument. You're trying to rectify rules from a 5th ed, 3 year old codex where Chariots were a completely different type of unit with a new ruleset that was designed with something else in mind when it came to the new unit type. The RAI is pretty much up in the air, and has people on both sides, even among Necron players.
It could be fully intended for the chariot to have the 3++. If GW were to clarify it in that regard I would not cry OP or anything like that. But right now, every tournament and TO I've seen has said it doesn't work like that, and the CCB is still extremely strong without it. I don't want to have to take 10-20 minutes arguing with people at my store, whom I genuinely like, to convince them to make the model that they hate the most in my force even stronger. It's not worth the time or effort and it especially isn't worth causing a tiff when 90% of the time my CCB just styles all over most armies even without being even more invincible.
I would love to have a 3++ invuln save on an AV13 vehicle. It would be just swell, and given the cost of making it, it would probably be fine. But there's no reason to fight about it unless you care more about your Barge Lord being even more powerful than he already is than you do just playing the game with people. I mean sure, if your TO just accepts it at face value, that's one thing, but arguing wording across two books and then using Logan as a corollary example is completely different and you know it.
I thought exactly as you did until the Space Wolves codex came out. The Space Wolves codex provided much-needed clarification as to how chariots are to be handled. There are a whopping 3 whole chariots in the world of 40k and the Space Wolves codex is the first we see that was written entirely for 7th edition. With fresh eyes looking at chariots after reading the Space Wolves codex you will arrive at a different conclusion regarding the phase shifter. TOs and the community at large may be entrenched in their views on the issue (views that were solidified prior to the Space Wolves codex) and it may be unpopular to go against that view, but its clear to me what is RAW and RAI on the matter and how necron players should play it unless instructed otherwise by a TO who now has a house rule that power level edits the bargeLord rather than RAW or RAI justification.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 19:13:34
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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CrownAxe wrote:Letting the CCB have the 3++ invul barely does anything. Against shooting you can just jink for a 4+ save (and with Solar Pulses and Night Fight its easy to make it 3+) plus you have chariot shenanigans regardless. And in combat almost all attacks are going to be at the rider because he'll be way easier to kill so the CCB well almost never need that 3++ in combat.
Saying a 4+ is the same as a 3+ is absurd. I'm sure all Space Marines would be fine if suddenly they only had Scout saves, or Terminators down to Space Marine saves. It's a huge jump, not to mention thanks to things like Tau and Eldar, Jink is hampered by Ignores Cover.
As for combat, anything with S8 or higher (or Smash, or an Armorbane weapon, or Melta Bombs, or Power Klaws/Fists) can just choose to punch the chariot instead, since no saves and Open Topped means it's not exactly difficult to kill. Especially if it loses Quantum Shielding, then S6 can pen it.
It's a huge improvement to have a vehicle shrug off on a 3+ against both shooting and assault, especially when the rider is an Overlord.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 19:23:15
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Requizen wrote:
As for combat, anything with S8 or higher (or Smash, or an Armorbane weapon, or Melta Bombs, or Power Klaws/Fists) can just choose to punch the chariot instead, since no saves and Open Topped means it's not exactly difficult to kill. Especially if it loses Quantum Shielding, then S6 can pen it.
The most accurate way of looking at it is that without the 3++ on the chariot the bargeLord is zooming around with a huge achilles heel and can get suckerpunched and you lose all those points. But with the 3++ on the chariot he is zooming around without an achilles heel and his survivability is in line with his points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 19:25:35
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Requizen wrote: CrownAxe wrote:Letting the CCB have the 3++ invul barely does anything. Against shooting you can just jink for a 4+ save (and with Solar Pulses and Night Fight its easy to make it 3+) plus you have chariot shenanigans regardless. And in combat almost all attacks are going to be at the rider because he'll be way easier to kill so the CCB well almost never need that 3++ in combat.
Saying a 4+ is the same as a 3+ is absurd. I'm sure all Space Marines would be fine if suddenly they only had Scout saves, or Terminators down to Space Marine saves. It's a huge jump, not to mention thanks to things like Tau and Eldar, Jink is hampered by Ignores Cover.
When the CCB is already AV13 and can move any actual anti-tank shot on to the 2+/3++ rider, 4+ jink from 3++ is a drop in the bucket of the CCB not getting killed via shooting.
As for combat, anything with S8 or higher (or Smash, or an Armorbane weapon, or Melta Bombs, or Power Klaws/Fists) can just choose to punch the chariot instead, since no saves and Open Topped means it's not exactly difficult to kill. Especially if it loses Quantum Shielding, then S6 can pen it.
It's a huge improvement to have a vehicle shrug off on a 3+ against both shooting and assault, especially when the rider is an Overlord.
Anything S8-9 is going to still have trouble actually hurting AV13 (when they could just wound the lord on 2+) and S10 should hit the lord because you instant death (instead of penning on 4+ and trying to roll 5+ to explode it). Seriously only melta bombs, haywire, and armorbane make it matter but those aren't very common in combat. A CCB should be more afraid of getting tarpitted by pretty much anything because those are what actually kill the CCB and having a 3++ does nothing to stop that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 19:27:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 19:56:12
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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CrownAxe wrote: Anything S8-9 is going to still have trouble actually hurting AV13 (when they could just wound the lord on 2+) and S10 should hit the lord because you instant death (instead of penning on 4+ and trying to roll 5+ to explode it). Seriously only melta bombs, haywire, and armorbane make it matter but those aren't very common in combat. A CCB should be more afraid of getting tarpitted by pretty much anything because those are what actually kill the CCB and having a 3++ does nothing to stop that.
See my analysis above. Str 8 ap2 is more effectively applied against the vehicle profile than against the rider profile if the vehicle profile does not have an invul save. Logan will finish off the bargeLord in 2 rounds of CC on average by applying hits to the vehicle profile which is better than the 3 rounds average required to finish off the rider profile. If Logan were swinging a s9 ap2 axe around, the chariot profile is on the borderline averages-wise of going down in 1 round of CC (just as likely to go into a 2nd round of CC and do superfluous damage on that round). You probably aren't factoring in the AV13 going down to any pen and the ID possible with any pen. Once AV13 goes down it's quick work since its all AV11 from there.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 20:12:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 20:19:48
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Logan gets a beast and gets a ton of attacks so of course he's going to drop a CCB very quickly. S8-10 isn't just walking around in large quantities in every unit of the game. Its not very common meaning the instances where the 3++ not being on the CCB mattering isn't common either.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 20:21:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 20:25:34
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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CrownAxe wrote:Logan gets a beast and gets a ton of attacks so of course he's going to drop a CCB very quickly. S8-10 isn't just walking around in large quantities in every unit of the game. Its not very common meaning the instances where the 3++ not being on the CCB mattering isn't common either.
I am just saying s8 ap2 applied to a chariot without an invul save outperforms a s8 ap2 applied to the rider with an invul save.
Chainfists (s8, ap2 armourbane) and their cousins are ridiculously effective at taking down a necron chariot by cutting through the chariot profile like butter if it doesn't have an invul save. Logan handles those attacks with ease since for him all pens are superfluous.
I do agree with you that s10 ap2 is better applied against the rider, but it's just slightly better. Jy2, would you care to comment? Maybe you should double check this and advise the WK players to instead punch the rider for a slight boost in effectiveness.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/10/08 20:49:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 20:32:36
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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S8 ap2 may be better against the CCB then the rider, but it still isn't good at hurting the CCB.
I just can't think of a lot of instances where the lack of 3++ on the CCB matters, either because the whole CCB was going to die in that situation regardless (such as against Logan, IKs, WKs, or being tarpitted) or because the difference actually doesn't pose a significant threat to the CCB (because S8 pening on 6's isn't a threat).
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/08 20:35:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 20:40:32
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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CrownAxe wrote:S8 ap2 may be better against the CCB then the rider, but it still isn't good at hurting the CCB.
I just can't think of a lot of instances where the lack of 3++ on the CCB matters, either because the whole CCB was going to die in that situation regardless (such as against Logan, IKs, WKs, or being tarpitted) or because the difference actually doesn't pose a significant threat to the CCB (because S8 pening on 6's isn't a threat).
It will matter significantly in defending against shooting attacks that ignore cover or otherwise prohibit you from taking a jink save.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 20:45:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 20:49:29
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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col_impact wrote: CrownAxe wrote:S8 ap2 may be better against the CCB then the rider, but it still isn't good at hurting the CCB.
I just can't think of a lot of instances where the lack of 3++ on the CCB matters, either because the whole CCB was going to die in that situation regardless (such as against Logan, IKs, WKs, or being tarpitted) or because the difference actually doesn't pose a significant threat to the CCB (because S8 pening on 6's isn't a threat).
It will matter significantly in defending against shooting attacks that ignore cover or otherwise prohibit you from taking a jink save.
No it won't. Any shooting attack that would hurt the CCB I can just put on the Overlord with his 2+/3++ because if it ignores cover it probably isn't also ap2 or S10. The chariot rules alone make the CCB all but invincible to shooting.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 20:50:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 21:00:02
Subject: Re:Necrons in 7th
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Regular Dakkanaut
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In CC you always attack the chariot with a WK, 3s to hit, 2s to pen. 3 of them go through and youve effectively killed it, that is saying you dont get a 5 for the explode result.
Why would a WK every atk the Lord on the chance he ID. 4s and 2s with a 3++save is not better than 3s and 2s with no save.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/08 21:01:54
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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CrownAxe wrote:col_impact wrote: CrownAxe wrote:S8 ap2 may be better against the CCB then the rider, but it still isn't good at hurting the CCB.
I just can't think of a lot of instances where the lack of 3++ on the CCB matters, either because the whole CCB was going to die in that situation regardless (such as against Logan, IKs, WKs, or being tarpitted) or because the difference actually doesn't pose a significant threat to the CCB (because S8 pening on 6's isn't a threat).
It will matter significantly in defending against shooting attacks that ignore cover or otherwise prohibit you from taking a jink save.
No it won't. Any shooting attack that would hurt the CCB I can just put on the Overlord with his 2+/3++ because if it ignores cover it probably isn't also ap2 or S10. The chariot rules alone make the CCB all but invincible to shooting.
True. In theory it's significant, but there still needs to be an actual game example where it is significant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incognito15 wrote:In CC you always attack the chariot with a WK, 3s to hit, 2s to pen. 3 of them go through and youve effectively killed it, that is saying you dont get a 5 for the explode result.
Why would a WK every atk the Lord on the chance he ID. 4s and 2s with a 3++save is not better than 3s and 2s with no save.
s10 ap2 WS 5+ is 3s to hit, 3 to glance, 4+ to pen and 5+ to ID until the quantum shielding goes down and then its 3s to hit, 1 to glance, 2+ to pen, and 5+ to ID . Chariots always resolve CC against their front armor!
On second thought, it's statistically safer to apply s10 ap2 against the vehicle profile. Yes, it's a little less probable, but wounds that are invul saved get thrown away whereas hull points that are glances or pens are not thrown away when they don't convert to ID and they count toward the 3 glances to eventually kill. This avoids the problem of a stretch of bad luck where the opposing player keeps making the invul saves against you. After his 5th save you will be wishing you had applied hits to the vehicle profile instead.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/09 00:02:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/09 01:35:59
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Fixture of Dakka
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col_impact wrote: jy2 wrote:
Here's a better test. Instead of pitting a bargelord up against a wraithknight or blob and instead of pitting Logan up against a unit of 5 assault terminators or Daemon Prince, just pit the bargelord up against Logan and see who kicks whose ass. Haha....
Keep in mind one thing. As I am sure you know, a regular old Necron Overlord that is not riding a barge but is kitted with Mind Shackle Scarabs is an absolute beast in one-on-one CC with other HQ. He is able to prevail against the likes of Abaddon and just about all HQ by crutching on the power of MSS. Without MSS the Necron Overlord is much more in line with his points. So the key to beating the Necron Overlord, whether he is on or off a barge is to take MSS out of the equation. An astute general will know this and will not engage Logan with the bargeLord unless the potency of MSS can be quickly dealt with (by for example running troops in to the one-one-one combat to get into base contact with the bargeLord and thereby dilute the MSS).
Taking mindshackle scarabs out of the equation, the math lines up like this . . .
bargeLord averages 0.75 wounds or hull points per round. Takes 4 rounds to kill vehicle profile and 5 rounds to kill rider profile.
Chariot has 3++ (makes it more profitable for Logan to attack the rider profile)
Logan averages 1 wound per round of CC against the bargeLord. He kills the bargeLord in 3 rounds. 50% chance the bargeLord gets back up.
Chariot does not have 3++ (makes it more profitable for Logan to attack the vehicle profile)
Logan on average destroys the chariot in 2 rounds of CC. It's right on the cusp though of going into 3 rounds of CC with superfluous damage to finish him off. 50% chance the bargeLord gets back up.
So Logan and the bargeLord are very much in line with their points if the bargeLord has an invul save on the chariot profile. A weakness is exposed for the bargeLord if he does not have an invul save on the vehicle profile and will go down really fast to weapons that can exploit this. Chainfists and their cousins are ridiculously effective.
I'm not sure how you can take MSS out of the equation. A Necron Lord without MSS is like a GK Librarian who is only Level 2.
It isn't easy to take MSS out of the equation. Grey hunters (or whatever SW troops) won't be able to keep up with an Overlord or Logan on chariot so initially, it'll almost always be a one-on-one battle. Then, once they are in combat, all the Lord has to do is to issue a challenge against Logan.
But yeah, if you somehow manage to take MSS out of the equation, Logan has a better chance to take out the bargelord.
Also keep in mind that Logan's power fist strikes at Init 1 (unless he attacks with his axe). Therefore, the Overlord has a chance to try to take out Logan's chariot first. BTW, can he not explode Logan's chariot on a successful hit? Is there a special rule for Logan's chariot that prevents this from happening? Thanks.
CrownAxe wrote: jy2 wrote: CrownAxe wrote:Letting the CCB have the 3++ invul barely does anything. Against shooting you can just jink for a 4+ save (and with Solar Pulses and Night Fight its easy to make it 3+) plus you have chariot shenanigans regardless. And in combat almost all attacks are going to be at the rider because he'll be way easier to kill so the CCB well almost never need that 3++ in combat.
In competitive play, where you see lots of Imperial Knights and wraithknight-dominated Eldar, it makes a world of difference in assault. Actually, playing without the 3++, all the attacks by those units are going to be on the barge.
Both of those units are good at killing the CCB in combat regardless of the 3++
Yes, agreed. What I am saying is that giving the CCB 3++ makes a world of difference, especially in assault.
In all my battles against Imperial Knights and wraithknights....and I've fought a lot of them....my opponents almost always go after my barge as we play it here that the 3++ does not confer to the chariot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: col_impact wrote: CrownAxe wrote:Logan gets a beast and gets a ton of attacks so of course he's going to drop a CCB very quickly. S8-10 isn't just walking around in large quantities in every unit of the game. Its not very common meaning the instances where the 3++ not being on the CCB mattering isn't common either.
I am just saying s8 ap2 applied to a chariot without an invul save outperforms a s8 ap2 applied to the rider with an invul save.
Chainfists (s8, ap2 armourbane) and their cousins are ridiculously effective at taking down a necron chariot by cutting through the chariot profile like butter if it doesn't have an invul save. Logan handles those attacks with ease since for him all pens are superfluous.
I do agree with you that s10 ap2 is better applied against the rider, but it's just slightly better. Jy2, would you care to comment? Maybe you should double check this and advise the WK players to instead punch the rider for a slight boost in effectiveness.
Correct. If you play it that the barge gets the 3++, then it's better for WK's and other S10 models to attack the Lord. If you don't play it that way (most tournaments don't), then it is much easier to kill the transport without an Invuln.
Basically, the higher the strength (assuming AP2), the better it is to attack an Invuln-less barge in close combat. At S8 vs bargelord with no 3++ on the barge (assuming you're hitting on 3's), you have a 22% to do damage against the barge (glance or pen) and only a 18.5% chance to cause an unsaved wound against the Lord, and that is not including the chance that you may explode the barge on the damage charts.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/09 01:51:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/09 01:53:33
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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jy2 wrote:Yes, agreed. What I am saying is that giving the CCB 3++ makes a world of difference, especially in assault.
In all my battles against Imperial Knights and wraithknights....and I've fought a lot of them....my opponents almost always go after my barge as we play it here that the 3++ does not confer to the chariot.
In the case of the Wraithknight it realy doesn't make that much difference. In fact, the s10 ap2 CC attacks have a better chance of scoring ID against the rider profile. It's only arguably "safer" statistically to go after the vehicle since you can build up to a kill on pens that don't ID. It is NOT a world of difference in assault. If you feel otherwise, please prove your case.
In the case of the IK, it is a huge difference, since invul saves work against D weapons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/09 01:59:48
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Fixture of Dakka
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col_impact wrote:
s10 ap2 WS 5+ is 3s to hit, 3 to glance, 4+ to pen and 5+ to ID until the quantum shielding goes down and then its 3s to hit, 1 to glance, 2+ to pen, and 5+ to ID . Chariots always resolve CC against their front armor!
On second thought, it's statistically safer to apply s10 ap2 against the vehicle profile. Yes, it's a little less probable, but wounds that are invul saved get thrown away whereas hull points that are glances or pens are not thrown away when they don't convert to ID and they count toward the 3 glances to eventually kill. This avoids the problem of a stretch of bad luck where the opposing player keeps making the invul saves against you. After his 5th save you will be wishing you had applied hits to the vehicle profile instead.
If you play it that the barge doesn't get the 3++, then ALWAYS go after the barge in assault if you're a natural S10 beast.
Keep in mind that units like Imperial Knights or Wraithknights come with S10 Hammer of Wrath attacks. So before they even get to strike, there's a good chance that they've already brought down the Quantum Shielding if they get the charge.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/09 03:26:00
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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jy2 wrote:col_impact wrote:
s10 ap2 WS 5+ is 3s to hit, 3 to glance, 4+ to pen and 5+ to ID until the quantum shielding goes down and then its 3s to hit, 1 to glance, 2+ to pen, and 5+ to ID . Chariots always resolve CC against their front armor!
On second thought, it's statistically safer to apply s10 ap2 against the vehicle profile. Yes, it's a little less probable, but wounds that are invul saved get thrown away whereas hull points that are glances or pens are not thrown away when they don't convert to ID and they count toward the 3 glances to eventually kill. This avoids the problem of a stretch of bad luck where the opposing player keeps making the invul saves against you. After his 5th save you will be wishing you had applied hits to the vehicle profile instead.
If you play it that the barge doesn't get the 3++, then ALWAYS go after the barge in assault if you're a natural S10 beast.
Keep in mind that units like Imperial Knights or Wraithknights come with S10 Hammer of Wrath attacks. So before they even get to strike, there's a good chance that they've already brought down the Quantum Shielding if they get the charge.
Yeah, after some poor placement my Barge got instakilled by a charging Carnifex. D3 S9 HoW attacks are no joke.
Actually, do HoW hits go off if the player fails a MSS test? He passed his in the game, but it'll be nice to know in the future.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/09 04:52:38
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Fixture of Dakka
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Yes, it still goes off even if the model fails his MSS. Hammer of Wraths isn't a normal attack and thus cannot be affected by MSS. However, even if you do manage to kill the bargelord with the HoW attack, you still punch yourself in the face if you fail MSS.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/09 04:53:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/09 05:13:33
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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jy2 wrote:
It isn't easy to take MSS out of the equation. Grey hunters (or whatever SW troops) won't be able to keep up with an Overlord or Logan on chariot so initially, it'll almost always be a one-on-one battle. Then, once they are in combat, all the Lord has to do is to issue a challenge against Logan.
But yeah, if you somehow manage to take MSS out of the equation, Logan has a better chance to take out the bargelord.
Also keep in mind that Logan's power fist strikes at Init 1 (unless he attacks with his axe). Therefore, the Overlord has a chance to try to take out Logan's chariot first. BTW, can he not explode Logan's chariot on a successful hit? Is there a special rule for Logan's chariot that prevents this from happening? Thanks.
1) Fast attack units (wolves) can keep up with Logan and join the party once the chariots clash
2) Challenges changed in 7th. Enemy models can be in base to base contact with the models engaged in the challenge and they can allocate wounds to them once there are no other targets for them to allocate to. So a whole bunch of wolves can surround the bargeLord and take MSS out of the equation. The astute opponent would recognize this as an absolute top priority to escort his chariot to keep MSS at bay.
3) Logan has Eternal Warrior and all penetrating hits against his chariot Stormrider count as glancing hits instead so no possibility of IDing him. BTW, you can download Battlescribe and keep up to date on basic codex information that way.
I took MSS out of the calculation to establish a good baseline for performance and to establish performance based around good opponents who take MSS out of the equation. With MSS out of the equation, the bargeLord performs around the level of his points.
Let's look at the Necron Overlord apart from his barge. With MSS, a barge-less Necron Overlord performs beyond his point level and is an absolute beast and can beat all other HQs in one-on-one combat. Seriously, are there any HQs that don't succumb to the bargeless Necron Overlord when MSS is in full effect and it's a pure one-on-one battle? Beastly HQs like Abaddon fall hard. MSS reduces the damage output of the opponent by at least half and boosts the Necron Overlord's by 50% or more making it a top tactical priority to take MSS out of the equation. The power level of the Necron Overlord in one-on-one combat and touting MSS but off the barge is very high and possibly without equal.
So, I would expect the Necron Overlord touting MSS to be just as beastly on or off the barge. With MSS, the bargeLord should trounce Logan if Logan fails to take MSS out of the equation. But, without the 3++ save on the Necron chariot, Logan can match the damage output of the bargeLord by focusing his attacks on the vehicle profile. With the 3++ save on the Chariot, the fight is more one-sided in favor of the Necron Overlord, which is the expected result. I would expect the match-up to play out in a similar way to if it was played out without chariots.
This is why I took MSS out of the equation in my analysis above. It's easier to compare when things are performing at the power of their point levels. With the 3++ save conferrable to the chariot, the Necron Overlord performs at the expected power level, with or without MSS and with or without the barge.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/09 05:26:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/09 08:19:37
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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col_impact wrote:
Taking mindshackle scarabs out of the equation, the math lines up like this . . .
Taking everything good from Necrons away from them lines up like this ... autowin against them.
Yes, there are counters to MSS, but in general they will cost you about 150 points (fast squad with a sarge to absorb the challenge) and still require you to avoid the charge from a 12"+ 2d6" model.
Even just spending a turn to line up perfectly or to avoid that BargeLord is already making its points back. Automatically Appended Next Post: 1. The Bargelord without 3++ transfer is very competitive. The competitive scene proves it.
2. The 3++ does not transfer where it matters, i.e. tournaments.
3. The new dex is here soon.
So please, drop this discussion, and let's go back to something that's actually relevant to the game and not one perverted interpretation of the rules suggested by a player who insists the CCB as played in tournaments is not worth its points.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/09 08:26:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/09 12:11:44
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
Netherlands
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Oh my freaking God..
How many times do we have to explain how even a non-Sergeant can absorb MSS if you just activate it BEFORE the challenge?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/09 12:13:10
Subject: Necrons in 7th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Kangodo wrote:Oh my freaking God..
How many times do we have to explain how even a non-Sergeant can absorb MSS if yu just activate it BEFORE the challenge?
IF you have another unit around there, yes.
And you'll have to explain it a few more times, this bs rule of the guy whose turn it is decides the order does not make any sense so my brain rejects it.
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