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 Kain wrote:

God In Action wrote:

Have you ever considered the possibility that 'the competitive gaming scene' is not the largest demographic of 40k players? Or even that some changes are introduced without you in mind? Maybe- just maybe- the sense of entitlement which accompanies your sentiment is not the centre of Warhammer 40,000 around which the whole of GW revolves.

For your own fun and well-being, I strongly recommend playing Warmachine exclusively, clearly 40k is not the game for you.

Me and my friends "forged a narrative" right into making our own set of rules still recognizable as 40k that don't let silliness like putting invisibility and the grimoire on be'lakor or a screamerstar fly.

I love 40k, I think the entire design team is a bunch of incompetent ninnies who should be working in an office cubicle organizing order forms, not writing rules.

Well you've just solved your own problem. If you and your friends are capable of house ruling, you're capable of not putting inivisibility and the Grimoire on Be'lakor in the first place, likewise you're capable of not playing with 15 Heralds and summoning 2000 points of demons to the table.

(I agree the GW design team shouldn't miss these OP combinations, but I also thought it incredibly silly to think that the design team should consider all changes with the competitive tournament demographic as the heart of every decision. It's cool to introduce some options which make for a fun game, but could be abused to hell and back by a WAACer, because most players will never abuse them that far).

God In Action wrote:


Have you ever considered the possibility that 'the competitive gaming scene' is not the largest demographic of 40k players? Or even that some changes are introduced without you in mind? Maybe- just maybe- the sense of entitlement which accompanies your sentiment is not the centre of Warhammer 40,000 around which the whole of GW revolves.

For your own fun and well-being, I strongly recommend playing Warmachine exclusively, clearly 40k is not the game for you.

And nor is the game designed around you and your enjoyment. For someone who called someone out for their sense of entitlement, maybe you should avoid telling people what game they should or shouldn't be playing.

Objectively speaking, there is a lot of just outright poor game design in 40k. That bothers some people more than others, but it doesn't take away from the validity of the criticism just because you happen to like the current iteration of the game.

Maybe instead of telling people what games to play, you should read what other people have to say and refute their points.

Fact is, if the game were better designed and more balanced, we wouldn't be having this discussion, or at least not this level of polarization in the 40k community. That alone should speak volumes to the issues of the game.

 BoomWolf wrote:
humhum, yes, upon further reading this definitely requires an FAQ to give the "unless otherwise stated" part to several demons, if only to make it clear (as currently they are worded as having only several highly specific disciplines, and that counts as "otherwise stated" at some level.)

Not really. Having only "some" disciplines is how every faction's psykers already work. Chaos Sorcerers "only" have access to Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telepathy. If the rules were actually intended to be your way, then there isn't a single faction in the game that can use Daemonology powers because none of them permit it on their list. They must all choose between X, Y, and Z.

The confusion you seem to have comes from the cards that came in the psyker pack, where they have a card listing the tables of every available power. That card only shows the potential power sets that each faction currently has access to, but those powers are spread across multiple different types of units. Chaos Sorcerers don't have Divination, yet the card makes it seem like all of Chaos Space Marine's psykers have it. In fact no one in the Chaos Space Marines book has divination, they're getting that from the Crimson Slaughter book which is a supplement.

We all know Sorcerers can generate a power from their gods if they take a Mark, yet the entry for them says they generate Biomancy, Pyromancy, or Divination powers. It's the Mark that is ADDING Tzeentch to their list of disciplines, just as the Crimson Slaughter is ADDING Divination to their list of disciplines, just as the 7th edition rulebook is ADDING Daemonology to every Psyker's discipline list. The part about "otherwise stated" is referring to Grey Knights not getting access to Daemonology - Malefic and Daemons not getting access to Daemonology - Sanctic.

God In Action wrote:

 Kain wrote:

God In Action wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:


I'm sorry that you take it personally when I call the likes of Jervis and Kelly dribbling morons who should be quietly shuffled away from the rules department to some place where they can do less harm to the competitive gaming scene

Have you ever considered the possibility that 'the competitive gaming scene' is not the largest demographic of 40k players? Or even that some changes are introduced without you in mind? Maybe- just maybe- the sense of entitlement which accompanies your sentiment is not the centre of Warhammer 40,000 around which the whole of GW revolves.

For your own fun and well-being, I strongly recommend playing Warmachine exclusively, clearly 40k is not the game for you.

Me and my friends "forged a narrative" right into making our own set of rules still recognizable as 40k that don't let silliness like putting invisibility and the grimoire on be'lakor or a screamerstar fly.

I love 40k, I think the entire design team is a bunch of incompetent ninnies who should be working in an office cubicle organizing order forms, not writing rules.

Well you've just solved your own problem. If you and your friends are capable of house ruling, you're capable of not putting inivisibility and the Grimoire on Be'lakor in the first place, likewise you're capable of not playing with 15 Heralds and summoning 2000 points of demons to the table.

(I agree the GW design team shouldn't miss these OP combinations, but I also thought it incredibly silly to think that the design team should consider all changes with the competitive tournament demographic as the heart of every decision. It's cool to introduce some options which make for a fun game, but could be abused to hell and back by a WAACer, because most players will never abuse them that far).

House ruling and homebrew is also needed to resolve the deep problems of internal and external codex imbalance that plagues 40k. The latter is particularly baffling as Warhammer Fantasy can manage to have relatively good external balance, with even low tier armies such as the Tomb Kings being mostly within arm's reach of the likes of the High Elves. Meanwhile in 40k, it is very clear that the likes of the Tyranids or Orks are in for unhappy unfuntimes against the Space Elf Bash Brothers or the Imperial supercodex without subscribing to a single monobuild and praying for the best.

Especially when on one hand, you can have books like the Necron codex which is still going strong and has rested in the high tiers throughout it's entire lifetime, or books like the Tyranid codex that immediately crashed and burned and need to limp along with dataslates and spamming a few core units to reasonably compete.

I am really liking a lot of the changes.

Only problem I am running into is if I am going to run psykers or not. Either I run 3-4 levels or not even going to bother. Its a tough call and its making it difficult to make lists. In all honesty making lists is half the fun so being stuck trying to come up with ideas is pretty cool. I really need more practice before I will be able to come up with good lists. Also the variety of missions right now make it too hard to come up with a list so I will need to see what major tournament organizers decide on for missions before I can make a tournament list.

7e's biggest problem is that it doesn't fix the big problem with 40k.

The inter-faction balance remains terrible.

Maybe the new codices will fix that but hope is the first step on the road to disappointment and all.

I fully agree with everything said about the overall poor balance of 40k, which was the the crux of my point that for those who feel it has tipped too far from just 'imbalanced' to 'not enjoyable broken' more fun will be had by just playing something different. Of course it hasn't been designed around my fun specifically- the only point I've made here is that nor was it ever made specifically for competitive tournament play and it's pretty obvious from the broken rules loopholes that the design team never tried to make it be.

Maybe it's even deliberately not intended to be. After all, it's not like GW is obliged to make it tournament compatible. (Would be nice if I didn't have to rely on my opponent's willingness to play fair though, I'm not at all disputing that).

God In Action wrote:
I fully agree with everything said about the overall poor balance of 40k, which was the the crux of my point that for those who feel it has tipped too far from just 'imbalanced' to 'not enjoyable broken' more fun will be had by just playing something different. Of course it hasn't been designed around my fun specifically- the only point I've made here is that nor was it ever made specifically for competitive tournament play and it's pretty obvious from the broken rules loopholes that the design team never tried to make it be.

Maybe it's even deliberately not intended to be. After all, it's not like GW is obliged to make it tournament compatible. (Would be nice if I didn't have to rely on my opponent's willingness to play fair though, I'm not at all disputing that).

Why even have factions like the Orks, Tyranids, Chaos Space marines, and Sisters of Battle around if they're going to be intentionally crippled? Just so that little timmy can feel good as he sweeps them off the table?

So that they can look good on the table in the meantime?

God In Action wrote:
So that they can look good on the table in the meantime?

If they're going to be intentionally bad, you may as well strike the Chaos Space marines, Blood Angels, Orks, Tyranids, and Sisters completely out of the lore and game and consign them to the same hell as the squats and save their fanbases the constant heartache of seeing their army screwed over repeatedly. It'd at least tell them in no uncertain terms that no one on the design team likes them enough to make playing them fun for non-masochists.

 Evileyes wrote:
I'm loving every change in 7th edition. Primarily because I play with people who are not complete Norbert's i'm guessing. I can certainly see the little abusable things, but i'm safe in the knowledge that no-one in the groups of folks I play with want to be TFG who abuses it, and if someone came in and tried we would simply tell them we won't play if someone is that focussed on the win that they forget the fun.

This

I am enjoying it myself. As many have mentioned, this edition will have a big impact on competitive play and pick-up games...if no ground rules are set, which I find it hard to believe that there won't be very quickly, especially in the tournament scene. In every edition there has been broken lists adopted by d-bags solely with the intention of winning at the expense of fun. 7th will definitely not fix this issue unless some limitations are set. People playing like a-holes can be weeded out if no one plays them. They will either fall in line with community expectations or not play. Take the fun back! This is a game after all and not a job.

CSM player here.

Random charge range = fail
Must challenge = fail
Psychic phase on par with Fantasy = not thrilled

Not buying not playing

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
I'm loving every change in 7th edition. Primarily because I play with people who are not complete Norbert's i'm guessing. I can certainly see the little abusable things, but i'm safe in the knowledge that no-one in the groups of folks I play with want to be TFG who abuses it, and if someone came in and tried we would simply tell them we won't play if someone is that focussed on the win that they forget the fun.

This

Seconded as well.

Do you really pay £50 for the 7th edition of a game that needs house rules and an FAQ to work? Though the '7th' bit says all you need to know...

Im sure the next edition will sort it all out...

 Idolator wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon factory is an invented list that we have no reason to assume is even legal (not every daemon psyker gets every table daemons as a whole has, no reason to belive heralds will have daemology)

A

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596670.page


There it is. Guy made a list for 2000 points, summoned another 2000 points. For a total of 4000 points worth of models in a 2000 point game.

How can anyone actually believe this. 3 psykers each successfully casting a wc3 summoning each turn for 6 turns cannot generate 2000 points of daemons. Factor in the variable warp charge dice each turn, potw, deny the witch, and the fact that your opponent wouldn't target the psykers for the game, and I call massive amounts of bs (not ballistic skill)

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon factory is an invented list that we have no reason to assume is even legal (not every daemon psyker gets every table daemons as a whole has, no reason to belive heralds will have daemology)

A

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596670.page


There it is. Guy made a list for 2000 points, summoned another 2000 points. For a total of 4000 points worth of models in a 2000 point game.

How can anyone actually believe this. 3 psykers each successfully casting a wc3 summoning each turn for 6 turns cannot generate 2000 points of daemons. Factor in the variable warp charge dice each turn, potw, deny the witch, and the fact that your opponent wouldn't target the psykers for the game, and I call massive amounts of bs (not ballistic skill)

Way more than just three psykers were summoning, not only that but you can summon in more daemons to summon in even more daemons. You should have read the linkedthread before leaping to conclusions.

 ace101 wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
I'm loving every change in 7th edition. Primarily because I play with people who are not complete Norbert's i'm guessing. I can certainly see the little abusable things, but i'm safe in the knowledge that no-one in the groups of folks I play with want to be TFG who abuses it, and if someone came in and tried we would simply tell them we won't play if someone is that focussed on the win that they forget the fun.

This

Seconded as well.

Dito

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon factory is an invented list that we have no reason to assume is even legal (not every daemon psyker gets every table daemons as a whole has, no reason to belive heralds will have daemology)

A

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596670.page


There it is. Guy made a list for 2000 points, summoned another 2000 points. For a total of 4000 points worth of models in a 2000 point game.

How can anyone actually believe this. 3 psykers each successfully casting a wc3 summoning each turn for 6 turns cannot generate 2000 points of daemons. Factor in the variable warp charge dice each turn, potw, deny the witch, and the fact that your opponent wouldn't target the psykers for the game, and I call massive amounts of bs (not ballistic skill)

Way more than just three psykers were summoning, not only that but you can summon in more daemons to summon in even more daemons. You should have read the linkedthread before leaping to conclusions.

Again, assumes no perils, no failed casting, no deny the witch, illegal invul saves (they don't stack). A unit of ten paladins kills half the heralds first turn. Let's see this actually work an real game.

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon factory is an invented list that we have no reason to assume is even legal (not every daemon psyker gets every table daemons as a whole has, no reason to belive heralds will have daemology)

A

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596670.page


There it is. Guy made a list for 2000 points, summoned another 2000 points. For a total of 4000 points worth of models in a 2000 point game.

How can anyone actually believe this. 3 psykers each successfully casting a wc3 summoning each turn for 6 turns cannot generate 2000 points of daemons. Factor in the variable warp charge dice each turn, potw, deny the witch, and the fact that your opponent wouldn't target the psykers for the game, and I call massive amounts of bs (not ballistic skill)

Way more than just three psykers were summoning, not only that but you can summon in more daemons to summon in even more daemons. You should have read the linkedthread before leaping to conclusions.

Again, assumes no perils, no failed casting, no deny the witch, illegal invul saves (they don't stack). A unit of ten paladins kills half the heralds first turn. Let's see this actually work an real game.

I was just pointing out that the list can be made. The effectiveness will vary. How would a ten man unit kill half of the heralds on the first turn? I wouldn't think that he would deploy them all in one place and within 1st turn assault range.

I know one of the dudes in that video, they wouldn't fake that for fake's sake.

And daemons only peril on double 6s for Malefic.

Also, not everyone has a gaming group and relies on pick up games and tournaments. Hence folks are a little distraught. And once again, "casual" lists aren't balanced as a mono-tzeentch list, all fluffy as can be, can be game breaking as we've seen where as an all Khorne list can now fail 1" charges. Yay!

 Idolator wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon factory is an invented list that we have no reason to assume is even legal (not every daemon psyker gets every table daemons as a whole has, no reason to belive heralds will have daemology)

A

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596670.page


There it is. Guy made a list for 2000 points, summoned another 2000 points. For a total of 4000 points worth of models in a 2000 point game.

How can anyone actually believe this. 3 psykers each successfully casting a wc3 summoning each turn for 6 turns cannot generate 2000 points of daemons. Factor in the variable warp charge dice each turn, potw, deny the witch, and the fact that your opponent wouldn't target the psykers for the game, and I call massive amounts of bs (not ballistic skill)

Way more than just three psykers were summoning, not only that but you can summon in more daemons to summon in even more daemons. You should have read the linkedthread before leaping to conclusions.

Again, assumes no perils, no failed casting, no deny the witch, illegal invul saves (they don't stack). A unit of ten paladins kills half the heralds first turn. Let's see this actually work an real game.

I was just pointing out that the list can be made. The effectiveness will vary. How would a ten man unit kill half of the heralds on the first turn? I wouldn't think that he would deploy them all in one place and within 1st turn assault range.

Since this is an unbound army, each paladin runs solo, generating an additional warp charge each. They can then each target a unique enemy. As I mention in another thread, 30 paladins is 1650 points. Two hundreds points for extras, an inquisitor, a librarian, upgrades, etc. So you field 17 heralds - I field 30 paladins firing 2 shots a piece at 24 in range at any target they see fit. I also generate 30 plus D6 warp charges to attempt to deny any successful casting. And as the daemons are casting to create more daemons, I'm using my 30 plus D6 warp charges to kill daemons. Tabled in 3 turns, I would guess.

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon factory is an invented list that we have no reason to assume is even legal (not every daemon psyker gets every table daemons as a whole has, no reason to belive heralds will have daemology)

A

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596670.page


There it is. Guy made a list for 2000 points, summoned another 2000 points. For a total of 4000 points worth of models in a 2000 point game.

How can anyone actually believe this. 3 psykers each successfully casting a wc3 summoning each turn for 6 turns cannot generate 2000 points of daemons. Factor in the variable warp charge dice each turn, potw, deny the witch, and the fact that your opponent wouldn't target the psykers for the game, and I call massive amounts of bs (not ballistic skill)

Way more than just three psykers were summoning, not only that but you can summon in more daemons to summon in even more daemons. You should have read the linkedthread before leaping to conclusions.

Again, assumes no perils, no failed casting, no deny the witch, illegal invul saves (they don't stack). A unit of ten paladins kills half the heralds first turn. Let's see this actually work an real game.

I was just pointing out that the list can be made. The effectiveness will vary. How would a ten man unit kill half of the heralds on the first turn? I wouldn't think that he would deploy them all in one place and within 1st turn assault range.

Since this is an unbound army, each paladin runs solo, generating an additional warp charge each. They can then each target a unique enemy. As I mention in another thread, 30 paladins is 1650 points. Two hundreds points for extras, an inquisitor, a librarian, upgrades, etc. So you field 17 heralds - I field 30 paladins firing 2 shots a piece at 24 in range at any target they see fit. I also generate 30 plus D6 warp charges to attempt to deny any successful casting. And as the daemons are casting to create more daemons, I'm using my 30 plus D6 warp charges to kill daemons. Tabled in 3 turns, I would guess.

Each of those is a far cry from a "ten man unit of paladins" but I do see where you're going with it. It also highlights the problems of the current rules. You need this in order to counter that. Otherwise, you're screwed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon factory is an invented list that we have no reason to assume is even legal (not every daemon psyker gets every table daemons as a whole has, no reason to belive heralds will have daemology)

A

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596670.page


There it is. Guy made a list for 2000 points, summoned another 2000 points. For a total of 4000 points worth of models in a 2000 point game.

How can anyone actually believe this. 3 psykers each successfully casting a wc3 summoning each turn for 6 turns cannot generate 2000 points of daemons. Factor in the variable warp charge dice each turn, potw, deny the witch, and the fact that your opponent wouldn't target the psykers for the game, and I call massive amounts of bs (not ballistic skill)

Way more than just three psykers were summoning, not only that but you can summon in more daemons to summon in even more daemons. You should have read the linkedthread before leaping to conclusions.

Again, assumes no perils, no failed casting, no deny the witch, illegal invul saves (they don't stack). A unit of ten paladins kills half the heralds first turn. Let's see this actually work an real game.

I was just pointing out that the list can be made. The effectiveness will vary. How would a ten man unit kill half of the heralds on the first turn? I wouldn't think that he would deploy them all in one place and within 1st turn assault range.

Since this is an unbound army, each paladin runs solo, generating an additional warp charge each. They can then each target a unique enemy. As I mention in another thread, 30 paladins is 1650 points. Two hundreds points for extras, an inquisitor, a librarian, upgrades, etc. So you field 17 heralds - I field 30 paladins firing 2 shots a piece at 24 in range at any target they see fit. I also generate 30 plus D6 warp charges to attempt to deny any successful casting. And as the daemons are casting to create more daemons, I'm using my 30 plus D6 warp charges to kill daemons. Tabled in 3 turns, I would guess.

Each of those is a far cry from a "ten man unit of paladins" but I do see where you're going with it. It also highlights the problems of the current rules. You need this in order to counter that. Otherwise, you're screwed.

Battle points will stop that army in its tracks. It will take too long to play and games will end on turn 2-3 and they wont be able to get many points.

But that being said I think that the psyker spam army will be interesting to say the least to play against.

We dont have enough data and I kinda wish I knew someone who played it so I could try against it.

I think the money spot for investment to returns is gonna be 6-8 mastery levels.

I'm liking 7th, it's 6th with extra stuff and better charts. Maybe its not eighty bucks better, but I don't have any problems with the rules themselves.

Jeff Tracy wrote:

Since this is an unbound army, each paladin runs solo, generating an additional warp charge each. They can then each target a unique enemy. As I mention in another thread, 30 paladins is 1650 points. Two hundreds points for extras, an inquisitor, a librarian, upgrades, etc. So you field 17 heralds - I field 30 paladins firing 2 shots a piece at 24 in range at any target they see fit. I also generate 30 plus D6 warp charges to attempt to deny any successful casting. And as the daemons are casting to create more daemons, I'm using my 30 plus D6 warp charges to kill daemons. Tabled in 3 turns, I would guess.

You don't need an unbound army. Even the pink horrors can apparently summon the daemons needed, which summons more pink horrors to summon more pink horrors. It's an infinite cycle unless you can table them faster than they hit the table. Daemons don't get perils except on double 6s and Deny the Witch receives NO bonuses against summoning, so only 6s count whereas they only need 4+ to score. Additionally, you don't need thousands of points to hit the table, only a few troops at a time is already a huge advantage.

Check out this better recap of another game...

http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-early-returns-are-not-good.html

As for anyone who wants to test this out, you don't need daemon units for that. Just proxy any units you have as the lists given, get their stats off the codex or Army Builder, then go to town with your friendly neighborhood Space Marines. Watch the carnage yourself.

I'll just say that GW won't be making a dime off me for this new edition. The effort to dollar ratio just isn't there.

 Idolator wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon factory is an invented list that we have no reason to assume is even legal (not every daemon psyker gets every table daemons as a whole has, no reason to belive heralds will have daemology)

A

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596670.page


There it is. Guy made a list for 2000 points, summoned another 2000 points. For a total of 4000 points worth of models in a 2000 point game.

How can anyone actually believe this. 3 psykers each successfully casting a wc3 summoning each turn for 6 turns cannot generate 2000 points of daemons. Factor in the variable warp charge dice each turn, potw, deny the witch, and the fact that your opponent wouldn't target the psykers for the game, and I call massive amounts of bs (not ballistic skill)

Way more than just three psykers were summoning, not only that but you can summon in more daemons to summon in even more daemons. You should have read the linkedthread before leaping to conclusions.

Again, assumes no perils, no failed casting, no deny the witch, illegal invul saves (they don't stack). A unit of ten paladins kills half the heralds first turn. Let's see this actually work an real game.

I was just pointing out that the list can be made. The effectiveness will vary. How would a ten man unit kill half of the heralds on the first turn? I wouldn't think that he would deploy them all in one place and within 1st turn assault range.

Since this is an unbound army, each paladin runs solo, generating an additional warp charge each. They can then each target a unique enemy. As I mention in another thread, 30 paladins is 1650 points. Two hundreds points for extras, an inquisitor, a librarian, upgrades, etc. So you field 17 heralds - I field 30 paladins firing 2 shots a piece at 24 in range at any target they see fit. I also generate 30 plus D6 warp charges to attempt to deny any successful casting. And as the daemons are casting to create more daemons, I'm using my 30 plus D6 warp charges to kill daemons. Tabled in 3 turns, I would guess.

Each of those is a far cry from a "ten man unit of paladins" but I do see where you're going with it. It also highlights the problems of the current rules. You need this in order to counter that. Otherwise, you're screwed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon factory is an invented list that we have no reason to assume is even legal (not every daemon psyker gets every table daemons as a whole has, no reason to belive heralds will have daemology)

A

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596670.page


There it is. Guy made a list for 2000 points, summoned another 2000 points. For a total of 4000 points worth of models in a 2000 point game.

How can anyone actually believe this. 3 psykers each successfully casting a wc3 summoning each turn for 6 turns cannot generate 2000 points of daemons. Factor in the variable warp charge dice each turn, potw, deny the witch, and the fact that your opponent wouldn't target the psykers for the game, and I call massive amounts of bs (not ballistic skill)

Way more than just three psykers were summoning, not only that but you can summon in more daemons to summon in even more daemons. You should have read the linkedthread before leaping to conclusions.

Again, assumes no perils, no failed casting, no deny the witch, illegal invul saves (they don't stack). A unit of ten paladins kills half the heralds first turn. Let's see this actually work an real game.

I was just pointing out that the list can be made. The effectiveness will vary. How would a ten man unit kill half of the heralds on the first turn? I wouldn't think that he would deploy them all in one place and within 1st turn assault range.

Since this is an unbound army, each paladin runs solo, generating an additional warp charge each. They can then each target a unique enemy. As I mention in another thread, 30 paladins is 1650 points. Two hundreds points for extras, an inquisitor, a librarian, upgrades, etc. So you field 17 heralds - I field 30 paladins firing 2 shots a piece at 24 in range at any target they see fit. I also generate 30 plus D6 warp charges to attempt to deny any successful casting. And as the daemons are casting to create more daemons, I'm using my 30 plus D6 warp charges to kill daemons. Tabled in 3 turns, I would guess.

Each of those is a far cry from a "ten man unit of paladins" but I do see where you're going with it. It also highlights the problems of the current rules. You need this in order to counter that. Otherwise, you're screwed.

Fair enough. My larger point is that people declaring they've been able to break the game a day after the book comes out with an army that could just as easily be countered with an unbound list (and I bet there are many others) doesn't help the conversation. I'm willing to give the rules a try. That means playing actual games, not rofl-mathhammering an idea and then declaring a ruleset dead. I think unbound will create some crazy fun games, while standard force org will make more balanced battles as before. And yes, I'm sure it is only days until some stupid list becomes the new meta douchebaggery.

 Kain wrote:
You'll change your mind when you fight your first daemon factory list or see a mishappen monstrosity of an Imperial Army across the table with Knights, Inquisitors, Grey Knights, and Guardsmen all in the same list.

If you still like it afterwards, sure, whatever floats your boat.

*Sigh.* The "Daemon Factory List" isn't as effective in practice as you think it will be. I know how to make that army cry... without using psychic powers.

The "misshapen monstrosity" lists won't be any different from what we have now... unless you mean Unbound, and if you're looking at that on the table, you AGREED to play against it, so you shouldn't really be complaining.

Kyutaru wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

Since this is an unbound army, each paladin runs solo, generating an additional warp charge each. They can then each target a unique enemy. As I mention in another thread, 30 paladins is 1650 points. Two hundreds points for extras, an inquisitor, a librarian, upgrades, etc. So you field 17 heralds - I field 30 paladins firing 2 shots a piece at 24 in range at any target they see fit. I also generate 30 plus D6 warp charges to attempt to deny any successful casting. And as the daemons are casting to create more daemons, I'm using my 30 plus D6 warp charges to kill daemons. Tabled in 3 turns, I would guess.

You don't need an unbound army. Even the pink horrors can apparently summon the daemons needed, which summons more pink horrors to summon more pink horrors. It's an infinite cycle unless you can table them faster than they hit the table. Daemons don't get perils except on double 6s and Deny the Witch receives NO bonuses against summoning, so only 6s count whereas they only need 4+ to score. Additionally, you don't need thousands of points to hit the table, only a few troops at a time is already a huge advantage.

Check out this better recap of another game...

http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-early-returns-are-not-good.html

As for anyone who wants to test this out, you don't need daemon units for that. Just proxy any units you have as the lists given, get their stats off the codex or Army Builder, then go to town with your friendly neighborhood Space Marines. Watch the carnage yourself.

Since you need three 4+ to cast, you'd want to roll 5 to 7 die to "guarentee" success. A certain amount will fail. Another amount will perils. And some could be denied. Since any opponent would most likely be using unbound as well, the odds of generating some type of infinite daemon loop are zero to none. Tzneetch Heralds would be popping all over the battlefield against any competent counter force.