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 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Changes rock, and the maelstrom of war missions rule. I'm glad the sky never fell.

Good thing i took all that salt!

Okay, I mean this not as a "hater" (hilarious term), but... have you played it yet?

I have, I enjoyed the games, still think it needs help in the assault department but it's improved. I like it so far (thankfully have had some fun people to play against). But I like it because of what I've experienced firsthand.

Reading the rules is one thing. Play some games with it, then make up your mind. Maybe you'll still feel the same, and fair game to you if you do. But maybe you change your mind a bit and temper "love" down to "like" (or somehow completely flip your opinion).

This point really applies to all the people making an opinion either way about the new edition. Try playing some games, then make an opinion.

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Changes rock, and the maelstrom of war missions rule. I'm glad the sky never fell.

Good thing i took all that salt!

Okay, I mean this not as a "hater" (hilarious term), but... have you played it yet?

I have, I enjoyed the games, still think it needs help in the assault department but it's improved. I like it so far (thankfully have had some fun people to play against). But I like it because of what I've experienced firsthand.

Reading the rules is one thing. Play some games with it, then make up your mind. Maybe you'll still feel the same, and fair game to you if you do. But maybe you change your mind a bit and temper "love" down to "like" (or somehow completely flip your opinion).

This point really applies to all the people making an opinion either way about the new edition. Try playing some games, then make an opinion.

Played it all weekend brah.

Not sure why you think challenges rock though. Theyre almost removed with the wound spillover rule. All it does its let the characters of two units duke it out on their own, but once either the challenger dies or the rest of the unit not in the challenge dies, wounds carry over both ways.

My orks love that, thats for sure lol. 3 PKs on nobs + 1 on the boss. Rarely need more than 1 to win the challenge, and he has 6 attacks on the charge. Oooh yeah! lol. Likewise, if the nobs kill the unit and have wounds left over (very, very likely) they finish the challenge for me if i didnt win somehow.

I want to see someone start a 'Who Else Hates 7th' and have it fill up with nothing but people arguing how good it is.

Well, I'm hesitating a bit.
Daemonology worries me a bit since it cries for imbalance.
I'll organize a local tourney for the store owner. Not sure what constraints to put in.

40k losing players is not a good thing for the hobby or for GW.
They've lost me as a player and I don't seem to be the only one. I'm seeing similar things on other forums. I can't say how large this percentage is, but if its even 10%, that's still not good.

Jeff Tracy wrote:

Since you need three 4+ to cast, you'd want to roll 5 to 7 die to "guarentee" success. A certain amount will fail. Another amount will perils. And some could be denied. Since any opponent would most likely be using unbound as well, the odds of generating some type of infinite daemon loop are zero to none. Tzneetch Heralds would be popping all over the battlefield against any competent counter force.

I don't think you understand... there's nothing at risk here.

1) Failure is impossible because you just throw more dice at it, or try again with a different unit if you're going for the spam approach. You can afford with this army to throw 12 or even 15 dice at the attempt. Try failing that.

2) Perils don't affect this army. You can only peril once per cast and a Brotherhood of Sorcerers (which Pink Horrors are) suffers the wound to a random model in the unit, not the entire unit. Meaning you lose 1 of your 19 Pink Horrors if you peril.

3) In order to Deny the Witch successfully, you must generate a deny for EACH warp charge success the power caster generated. Since it's conjuration, only 6s count as denies. In order to succeed in casting summoning, you had to roll AT LEAST 3 warp charges, meaning the opponent needs THREE DENIES to cancel your power. For most opponents, that means they need to roll 18 dice to have a decent chance of that. No matter how many dice we talk about, your opponent will always need to roll three times as many dice as you do to cancel your power on average. Which goes back to number 2... since Pink Horrors don't care about perils, you can roll 15 dice on your summoning check, lose a single Pink Horror to perils, then watch as your opponent tries to cancel your power with 45 dice.

4) I stated already, this is NOT an unbound list. Pink Horrors are Troop choices and make up the core summoners of any army, as well as generating warp charges. The only reason you would take Heralds at all is if you want to generate MORE charges for low cost. Be'lakor is easily the best HQ for this army as Invisibility is absolutely broken in how invincible it makes your unit.

5) You don't care about Tzeentch Heralds, so let them pop. You can flood the board with daemons JUST using a few squads of Pink Horrors, which generate more warp charges the larger the squad you field.



Again, I'm not certain you understand how this tactic works or is played, that's why you keep decrying it. All of your points are irrelevant to the playstyle, this army doesn't care about perils and can't be denied unless you have God's Luck at rolling 6s. To reliably combat this army, you not only need to be able to kill the starting force, you need to be able to kill the 1, 2, or more units of horrors that they summon each turn. On top of that, at least one of the horrors will eventually roll a Possession on the malefic chart and suddenly you're dealing with BLOODTHIRSTERS!

Heavy Psker armies seem a little powerful but over all it looks like a pretty kick ass edition. Really like the new FOC as it gives me more options for my Necrons, and I can field more things as I have some CSM that'd could add to my force.

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 Kain wrote:
You'll change your mind when you fight your first daemon factory list or see a mishappen monstrosity of an Imperial Army across the table with Knights, Inquisitors, Grey Knights, and Guardsmen all in the same list.

If you still like it afterwards, sure, whatever floats your boat.

*Sigh.* The "Daemon Factory List" isn't as effective in practice as you think it will be. I know how to make that army cry... without using psychic powers.

The "misshapen monstrosity" lists won't be any different from what we have now... unless you mean Unbound, and if you're looking at that on the table, you AGREED to play against it, so you shouldn't really be complaining.

The lists I've seen aren't unbound and have cranked out hundreds of points extra in the reports. Would you please share your ability to completely shut down what very may well be the next overpowered build to fear? Or will you just make the statement "I can win against anything" and call it a day. Because I can lift the moon.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Changes rock, and the maelstrom of war missions rule. I'm glad the sky never fell.

Good thing i took all that salt!

Okay, I mean this not as a "hater" (hilarious term), but... have you played it yet?

I have, I enjoyed the games, still think it needs help in the assault department but it's improved. I like it so far (thankfully have had some fun people to play against). But I like it because of what I've experienced firsthand.

Reading the rules is one thing. Play some games with it, then make up your mind. Maybe you'll still feel the same, and fair game to you if you do. But maybe you change your mind a bit and temper "love" down to "like" (or somehow completely flip your opinion).

This point really applies to all the people making an opinion either way about the new edition. Try playing some games, then make an opinion.

Played it all weekend brah.

Good (although you get negative points for using the word "brah").

So give more than a couple lines. Say what you like. What particularly do you feel made the game better?

This isn't a personal thing, I've just seen a lot of very short posts with comments one way or the other, and I'm certain the majority of them haven't actually played. It's hard to sort out the ones who have, because people aren't backing their opinions one way or the other with "evidence" from gameplay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Not sure why you think challenges rock though. Theyre almost removed with the wound spillover rule. All it does its let the characters of two units duke it out on their own, but once either the challenger dies or the rest of the unit not in the challenge dies, wounds carry over both ways.

My orks love that, thats for sure lol. 3 PKs on nobs + 1 on the boss. Rarely need more than 1 to win the challenge, and he has 6 attacks on the charge. Oooh yeah! lol. Likewise, if the nobs kill the unit and have wounds left over (very, very likely) they finish the challenge for me if i didnt win somehow.

It was a little odd to see my Chapter Master wipe out an entire squad (there were only four left, to be fair) while fighting a "challenge." The rest of my unit just kind of stood there feeling useless...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kyutaru wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

Since you need three 4+ to cast, you'd want to roll 5 to 7 die to "guarentee" success. A certain amount will fail. Another amount will perils. And some could be denied. Since any opponent would most likely be using unbound as well, the odds of generating some type of infinite daemon loop are zero to none. Tzneetch Heralds would be popping all over the battlefield against any competent counter force.

I don't think you understand... there's nothing at risk here.

1) Failure is impossible because you just throw more dice at it, or try again with a different unit if you're going for the spam approach. You can afford with this army to throw 12 or even 15 dice at the attempt. Try failing that.

2) Perils don't affect this army. You can only peril once per cast and a Brotherhood of Sorcerers (which Pink Horrors are) suffers the wound to a random model in the unit, not the entire unit. Meaning you lose 1 of your 19 Pink Horrors if you peril.

3) In order to Deny the Witch successfully, you must generate a deny for EACH warp charge success the power caster generated. Since it's conjuration, only 6s count as denies. In order to succeed in casting summoning, you had to roll AT LEAST 3 warp charges, meaning the opponent needs THREE DENIES to cancel your power. For most opponents, that means they need to roll 18 dice to have a decent chance of that. No matter how many dice we talk about, your opponent will always need to roll three times as many dice as you do to cancel your power on average. Which goes back to number 2... since Pink Horrors don't care about perils, you can roll 15 dice on your summoning check, lose a single Pink Horror to perils, then watch as your opponent tries to cancel your power with 45 dice.

4) I stated already, this is NOT an unbound list. Pink Horrors are Troop choices and make up the core summoners of any army, as well as generating warp charges. The only reason you would take Heralds at all is if you want to generate MORE charges for low cost. Be'lakor is easily the best HQ for this army as Invisibility is absolutely broken in how invincible it makes your unit.

5) You don't care about Tzeentch Heralds, so let them pop. You can flood the board with daemons JUST using a few squads of Pink Horrors, which generate more warp charges the larger the squad you field.



Again, I'm not certain you understand how this tactic works or is played, that's why you keep decrying it. All of your points are irrelevant to the playstyle, this army doesn't care about perils and can't be denied unless you have God's Luck at rolling 6s. To reliably combat this army, you not only need to be able to kill the starting force, you need to be able to kill the 1, 2, or more units of horrors that they summon each turn. On top of that, at least one of the horrors will eventually roll a Possession on the malefic chart and suddenly you're dealing with BLOODTHIRSTERS!

It doesn't work. You'd have to throw a good number of dice at each summoning attempt, and that limited your summoning powers to maybe 4-5 a turn, six if you're lucky. You can't guarantee you'll always have the powers you want, and the dice might still be disagreeable.

And what exactly are you summoning? Oh, more T3 5+ save units that just give you charges to generate more. If the Horrors want to actively contribute (and they're your only ranged capability at that point, and assault in such an army is laughable), they have to take dice away from the pool for summoning. So you have an army that keeps generating useless bullet magnets.

Heralds are something you care about. Horrors are only Change psychic powers. You can try pushing RAW until a FAQ tells you to stop trying to be a cheeky jerk, but the idea for Horrors was always that they have a power from the Change spells in order to have a ranged attack in the army and to represent that they're, you know, Daemons of Tzeentch. Heralds are also three dice lost from the pool every time one of them dies.

You're left with FMCs coming down from the skies (say hello to more bullets!) or MCs trying to run across the board attempting to grab objectives, as their opponent whittles them down.

The army really isn't that effective. Theoryhammer makes it sound like that, because people are theorizing the best case scenario for the army and that it's being played against no opponent (or maybe an opponent who's in a coma).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 Kain wrote:
You'll change your mind when you fight your first daemon factory list or see a mishappen monstrosity of an Imperial Army across the table with Knights, Inquisitors, Grey Knights, and Guardsmen all in the same list.

If you still like it afterwards, sure, whatever floats your boat.

*Sigh.* The "Daemon Factory List" isn't as effective in practice as you think it will be. I know how to make that army cry... without using psychic powers.

The "misshapen monstrosity" lists won't be any different from what we have now... unless you mean Unbound, and if you're looking at that on the table, you AGREED to play against it, so you shouldn't really be complaining.

The lists I've seen aren't unbound and have cranked out hundreds of points extra in the reports. Would you please share your ability to completely shut down what very may well be the next overpowered build to fear? Or will you just make the statement "I can win against anything" and call it a day. Because I can lift the moon.

*Yawn.* Stop with the boring attempts at insults. They're so bad they've passed "bad enough to be funny."

You don't have to shut down the psychic phase. It's not as effective as your Theoryhammer makes it out to be, I've already seen that (and heard the lamentations of people who relied too much on psychic powers in the past as they can't get off many of them now). The "Daemon Factory List" is a bunch of Horrors, a crapload of Heralds of Tzeentch, and some Greater Daemons or Monstrous Creatures, all just churning out new daemons. The only real offensive capability of the army is the Horrors' powers, but if they use them, that takes dice from the pool. You have to throw plenty of dice into a power to make sure you get it cast. A standard Space Marine army can stand back and use bolters to shred the Horrors and Heralds (or S6+ to insta-kill Heralds), tearing up the power dice pool while also making it very hard to claim any objectives (and they'll just move to the objectives and assault any Horrors that make it through). So while the list is trying to spam new daemons, those daemons will keep dying (and just pray it's not a mission like Purge the Alien, where you're just feeding VPs to the opposing army as they laugh), and it'll be down to the MCs to try to grab objectives, which they can't contest against Battle-Forged Troops (even if they came down out of the sky), and they'll still be subjected to whatever fire isn't ripping up Horrors and Heralds.

Yeah, it sounds scary, if you don't take the fact you have to roll dice into it, and if it's playing against a comatose opponent who is literally doing nothing.

 ErikSetzer wrote:
It doesn't work. You'd have to throw a good number of dice at each summoning attempt, and that limited your summoning powers to maybe 4-5 a turn, six if you're lucky. You can't guarantee you'll always have the powers you want, and the dice might still be disagreeable.

And what exactly are you summoning? Oh, more T3 5+ save units that just give you charges to generate more. If the Horrors want to actively contribute (and they're your only ranged capability at that point, and assault in such an army is laughable), they have to take dice away from the pool for summoning. So you have an army that keeps generating useless bullet magnets.

The army really isn't that effective. Theoryhammer makes it sound like that, because people are theorizing the best case scenario for the army and that it's being played against no opponent (or maybe an opponent who's in a coma).

I don't think you realize that's all the summoning you need. Even with just 1 or 2 troops produced each turn, the point advantage proves its effectiveness. We're talking about balanced armies going against each, not armies that have enough firepower to one-shot your army on the first turn. These aren't theories, they're generated from actual gameplay. Rather than exerting your own theories about how ineffective the army is, play the army yourself and watch the madness unfold. It's incredibly easy to proxy your space marines for daemons and play using their stats. I've already played this army against my local meta yesterday and most people surrendered after three turns. If you want a play by play of how this army steamrolls, just look here:

http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-early-returns-are-not-good.html

 ErikSetzer wrote:
Heralds are something you care about. Horrors are only Change psychic powers. You can try pushing RAW until a FAQ tells you to stop trying to be a cheeky jerk, but the idea for Horrors was always that they have a power from the Change spells in order to have a ranged attack in the army and to represent that they're, you know, Daemons of Tzeentch. Heralds are also three dice lost from the pool every time one of them dies.

By that logic, Chaos Sorcerers can only use Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telepathy. They have no access to Daemonology whatsoever. By the same token, Chaos Sorcerers should have no access to Divination either despite the fact that the Crimson Slaughter book GRANTS them access, just as the 7th edition rulebook is GRANTING Horrors access to Daemonology. Heck, every psyker in the game has a similarly limited list to Horrors so it's illegal for ANYONE to be using Malefic or Sanctic powers.

You have to realize how absurd all of that sounds. By all means, have faith in your FAQ, but it hasn't arrived yet and there's no telling what it will say.

Just so you know, even the Chaos Daemons Codex supports Horrors rolling on Daemonology. The Codex reads, and I quote:
"If the psyker is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God, they may roll up to half of their powers on the chart that corresponds to their patron."
By the rules of the codex, none of the psyker Daemons are required to roll on a specific discipline. This permits other disciplines if they have access to them, which they DO! The only way that you can forbid Pink Horrors from rolling on Daemonology is if they Codex were changed to specify they MUST take a power from Change, which currently it does not.

 ErikSetzer wrote:
You're left with FMCs coming down from the skies (say hello to more bullets!) or MCs trying to run across the board attempting to grab objectives, as their opponent whittles them down.

How exactly does one whittle down a zerg? The entire point of the Daemon Factory list is that you cannot whittle them down. They grow with every passing turn. As for FMCs and bullets... that's what Be'lakor is for, to grant invisibility to units and make them even more unkillable.

You may think decrying the effectiveness of cheap, squishy swarms will save you from them, but Tyranids once proved the whole world wrong on that note in past editions.

Before you go denouncing a proven strategy using your own Theorycrafting, either play the army/against the army or read up on its reports. What you say all makes great reasonable sense in a vacuum, it just doesn't play out that way in practice. You're trying to argue that fielding a 1500 point army of (insert faction here) is somehow in your favor against a 4000 point army of Daemons.

I think it's funny how someone can claim the Deamon Factory isn't aggressive when every battle report I've seen ends early with deamons completely covering most objectives on the board.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I think it's funny how someone can claim the Deamon Factory isn't aggressive when every battle report I've seen ends early with deamons completely covering most objectives on the board.

You wouldn't have happened to see a highly detailed battle report using the Daemon Factory list? So far the ones I've seen are generalized and tends to gloss over most of the game, a link would be greatly appreciated thanks.

I haven't seen many that go into great detail. The majority of things are glossed over because of the length of the psker phase taking one player almost an hour but ended up spawning an additional 60 units.

Kyutaru wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:

Since you need three 4+ to cast, you'd want to roll 5 to 7 die to "guarentee" success. A certain amount will fail. Another amount will perils. And some could be denied. Since any opponent would most likely be using unbound as well, the odds of generating some type of infinite daemon loop are zero to none. Tzneetch Heralds would be popping all over the battlefield against any competent counter force.

I don't think you understand... there's nothing at risk here.

1) Failure is impossible because you just throw more dice at it, or try again with a different unit if you're going for the spam approach. You can afford with this army to throw 12 or even 15 dice at the attempt. Try failing that.

2) Perils don't affect this army. You can only peril once per cast and a Brotherhood of Sorcerers (which Pink Horrors are) suffers the wound to a random model in the unit, not the entire unit. Meaning you lose 1 of your 19 Pink Horrors if you peril.

3) In order to Deny the Witch successfully, you must generate a deny for EACH warp charge success the power caster generated. Since it's conjuration, only 6s count as denies. In order to succeed in casting summoning, you had to roll AT LEAST 3 warp charges, meaning the opponent needs THREE DENIES to cancel your power. For most opponents, that means they need to roll 18 dice to have a decent chance of that. No matter how many dice we talk about, your opponent will always need to roll three times as many dice as you do to cancel your power on average. Which goes back to number 2... since Pink Horrors don't care about perils, you can roll 15 dice on your summoning check, lose a single Pink Horror to perils, then watch as your opponent tries to cancel your power with 45 dice.

4) I stated already, this is NOT an unbound list. Pink Horrors are Troop choices and make up the core summoners of any army, as well as generating warp charges. The only reason you would take Heralds at all is if you want to generate MORE charges for low cost. Be'lakor is easily the best HQ for this army as Invisibility is absolutely broken in how invincible it makes your unit.

5) You don't care about Tzeentch Heralds, so let them pop. You can flood the board with daemons JUST using a few squads of Pink Horrors, which generate more warp charges the larger the squad you field.



Again, I'm not certain you understand how this tactic works or is played, that's why you keep decrying it. All of your points are irrelevant to the playstyle, this army doesn't care about perils and can't be denied unless you have God's Luck at rolling 6s. To reliably combat this army, you not only need to be able to kill the starting force, you need to be able to kill the 1, 2, or more units of horrors that they summon each turn. On top of that, at least one of the horrors will eventually roll a Possession on the malefic chart and suddenly you're dealing with BLOODTHIRSTERS!

I find the report suspect, as you start with 22 warp charges. You roll a 6. Add +4 for Fatey, +5 for the two heralds (level 3 and 2) +3 for Be'Lakor, and then +2 for the Pink Horrors (1 each per unit). This adds up to 20 total, yet you claim 22. I'm assuming this is coming from the 11 horrors - and counting the extra horror as Iridescent, but that only changes the unit type. They are still part of the unit, which is all that counts for warp charges. So can you please explain where you are getting 22 warp charges.

i dont think there is a single completed daemon factory battle report yet. Theyve all ended by conceding or "this is ridiculous lets just stop" reactions lol

I haven't seen anyone say the changes from 6th to 7th actually required a whole new rulebook. Did it? Thats my big question, because it looks like they made a few rule changes and added two more books of purdy pictures of models and existing artwork.

I'm not dropping another $80 dollars, because there's no guarantee that another rulebook for $85+ won't be announced in 1 1/2 years this time.

GW is never going to satisfy every player. They should really consider a rulebook for "official" tourneys, and a standard rulebook. Maybe the tourney one focuses on being more streamlined (rules) and less randomness (objectives) and a standard rulebook would contain randomness (objectives) and even weaponry, that would be fun for people gaming without a time restraint.

So far i like it.

didnt have any sort of issue with daemon factory as they failed a lot of rolls.

As did i just trying to cast lv 2 ish mastery level spells.
i feel (though without mathing it out yet) that psyker phase is blown way out of proportions except for when your opponents have no ability to cast. but it was going to be a one sided psychic battle anyway.

besides from that and allies (which didnt matter to me as much since i was a imperial player anyway (except tau but they dont really need help) it plays similarly to 6th.

we needa try out the new maelstorm type but i wasn't able to get the cards and didn't feel like rolling.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Changes rock, and the maelstrom of war missions rule. I'm glad the sky never fell.

Good thing i took all that salt!

I agree, the changes all seem to be pretty good.

Tried some normal games and an apocalypse game in 7th so far(rolling the exterminates event was interesting).

The psychic phase is good, the new game types are actually fun because it rewards people for building a more balanced list(things to engage the enemy, things to take objectives, things to deny objectives). Getting to actually use my warhound titan(1989 armors cast) in standard games(not all the time and usually with forewarning to my opponent).

Jeff Tracy wrote:
I find the report suspect, as you start with 22 warp charges. You roll a 6. Add +4 for Fatey, +5 for the two heralds (level 3 and 2) +3 for Be'Lakor, and then +2 for the Pink Horrors (1 each per unit). This adds up to 20 total, yet you claim 22. I'm assuming this is coming from the 11 horrors - and counting the extra horror as Iridescent, but that only changes the unit type. They are still part of the unit, which is all that counts for warp charges. So can you please explain where you are getting 22 warp charges.

Actually it comes from the rule in the Codex that Pink Horrors have called Magic Made Manifest. A pink horror squad generates a number of warp charges based on the number of pink horrors in the squad.

1-10 Pink Horrors generate 1 Warp Charge.
11-15 Pink Horrors generate 2 Warp Charges.
16-20 Pink Horrors generate 3 Warp Charges.

This is also why some of the lists you will see have squads of 17-19 pink horrors, so they can generate the maximum 3 Warp Charges and still have enough left over to sacrifice to perils.

Kyutaru wrote:

Jeff Tracy wrote:
I find the report suspect, as you start with 22 warp charges. You roll a 6. Add +4 for Fatey, +5 for the two heralds (level 3 and 2) +3 for Be'Lakor, and then +2 for the Pink Horrors (1 each per unit). This adds up to 20 total, yet you claim 22. I'm assuming this is coming from the 11 horrors - and counting the extra horror as Iridescent, but that only changes the unit type. They are still part of the unit, which is all that counts for warp charges. So can you please explain where you are getting 22 warp charges.

Actually it comes from the rule in the Codex that Pink Horrors have called Magic Made Manifest. A pink horror squad generates a number of warp charges based on the number of pink horrors in the squad.

1-10 Pink Horrors generate 1 Warp Charge.
11-15 Pink Horrors generate 2 Warp Charges.
16-20 Pink Horrors generate 3 Warp Charges.

This is also why some of the lists you will see have squads of 17-19 pink horrors, so they can generate the maximum 3 Warp Charges and still have enough left over to sacrifice to perils.

Thanks for the explanation. I look forward to playing a list like this and seeing what happens.

Eh. Don't love it or hate it.

Maybe I'll change my mind if plastic Sisters are released.

So, nevar!

Don't have enough games under my belt to make a concrete opinion yet, and my opinion is that anyone who has is jumping the gun a bit. Book's been out for all of 48-ish hours thus far.

Even the most hardcore 40k player has, what 10 or so games under their belt (if they've been playing all long weekend, as it is here in the states) ?

Hardly enough to judge a new edition of a game on.


Cautiously optimistic. I think it cleaned up some nonsense from 6th, but very rightly shook up the meta a lot. I see a lot of potential, but there's also a lot of questions that need answers. Those questions could color my ultimate final opinion pretty significantly, but the 3 games i've played thus far of it have been a lot of fun.


-- Haight


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont think there is a single completed daemon factory battle report yet. Theyve all ended by conceding or "this is ridiculous lets just stop" reactions lol

THe one that started all the hulaballoo in the first place - the video making the rounds on the web - did complete. The Imperial Knight player, 100% unprepared for what he was going up against, managed to get a draw based on playing to objectives.

Which, if a completely unprepared list can manufacture a draw, i have a sincerely difficult time calling a list OP / BS etc, particularly as it's going to be come everyone's favorite net-list, so it will be something people prepare for.


... also, Summoning is going to get errata'd into next tuesday soon enough. A simple "this power may only be manifested once per psychic phase" pretty much shuts it down hard, and there's more elegant ways of keeping it a powerful ability, but limiting the end result.

Haight, I sure hope they give us errata. I'm not afraid of Malefic stuff in my area, but I would like to GW to give us some attention other than "Buy this" and "Just d6 it"

My favorite thing about this thread so far is how the GW defenders are saying, "it'll be fine, they'll just FAQ/errata it."

You just paid $85 for that, "brah."

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon factory is an invented list that we have no reason to assume is even legal (not every daemon psyker gets every table daemons as a whole has, no reason to belive heralds will have daemology)

As for " a mishappen monstrosity of an Imperial Army across the table with Knights, Inquisitors, Grey Knights, and Guardsmen all in the same list. ", what's exacly the problem here?
I'd love to play against that.

Agreed! I would love to play against that as well. Id also love to play against and with the Daemon factory, it would be an awesome game.

I personally don't think the maths for the factory add up enough for it to be a super broken competitive list and it's one trick IMO will easily be taken apart early by competent players. In 6 months time I almost guarantee no one will be talking about it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haight wrote:
THe one that started all the hulaballoo in the first place - the video making the rounds on the web - did complete. The Imperial Knight player, 100% unprepared for what he was going up against, managed to get a draw based on playing to objectives.

Which, if a completely unprepared list can manufacture a draw, i have a sincerely difficult time calling a list OP / BS etc, particularly as it's going to be come everyone's favorite net-list, so it will be something people prepare for.

... also, Summoning is going to get errata'd into next Tuesday soon enough. A simple "this power may only be manifested once per psychic phase" pretty much shuts it down hard, and there's more elegant ways of keeping it a powerful ability, but limiting the end result.

This get's an exalt!

Everyone focused on the ermagherd 1023828 Daemons and failed to remember that the list drew against someone who was completely newb too it with an army possibly not suited to taking it down. Play it against the big lists of 6th and see how it goes if it is apparently "broken" then it should handle them fine?

Skyblight didn't draw it's first game for instance.. it won that!

bodazoka wrote:
Everyone focused on the ermagherd 1023828 Daemons and failed to remember that the list drew against someone who was completely newb too it with an army possibly not suited to taking it down.

To turn that around, how suited was the other list for taking down knights?

The fact that a given list overpowering against an army of super heavy walkers isn't really indicative of much.

 slowthar wrote:
My favorite thing about this thread so far is how the GW defenders are saying, "it'll be fine, they'll just FAQ/errata it."

You just paid $85 for that, "brah."

I would rather get a 3-4 page document for each individual book, than have 10-20 added into the main rulebook that are invalidated when the codex is updated or that are completely unimportant for me to know.

As to insaniaks point:

With all of his summoning he had the ability to produce things that could take down knights. He chose not to do so. In addition his opponent seemed to be playing with a static more 6th edition list and one of the big things I have seen early from this edition is that being mobile is going to be very important, especially with the maelstrom missions. Second in a tournament it will not become a standard list simply because it takes so much time, and that is the only situation where you are semi-forced to play your opponent. With him taking 1 hour turns you might only get to turn two, resulting in him not being in a position to do anything. So on and so forth. I would wait and see if it even becomes a problem. I am personally not worried about it other than it being annoying to deal with all that book keeping.

I am not saying its not broken, I am just saying that the people who think it is broken are making some rules assumptions, the people who dont think its broken are making different rules assumptions. Its not even been a week, lets play some games and just go from there. Lets see what the FAQ says, which hopefully will be out within the week or two.