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 Redbeard wrote:

If you're cool with tournaments being decided by random dice rolls early in the game, this may be seen as reasonable. I don't like it though. In fact, as I write this, I've got another idea for tournament play.

so you want the game determined by non random rolls early on? or later on?

shooting rolls in 1st turn alpha strikes or leaf blows, are also random, and also early on.

its no fun to see tau/eldar make some good rolls first turn and see half my army just dissapear, thats random, thats early, just like getting a lucky invis or two... but where as I can use tactics to over come invisibility (tar pit, or ignore the unit ect) I cant do anything about you randomly rolling first turn then getting to shoot up my army with impunity.

in fact, just as random as the phychic power rolls... its a game of dice for petes sake... you can loose because you rolled a 1 for your save, or the game didnt go on, or your reserves didnt show up, and so on...

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
IF someone wanted to get funny the sacrifice power in the rulebook leaves it vague enough that someone could summon Skulltaker or other named heralds.

No, not it's not.

I tried to understand your comment but not its not throws me for a loop. What did you mean?

I am ok with capping warp charges if we can cap graviton guns so that I can play a MC other than a Dakka Flyrant.

Mission Objectives (cards needed)

Instead of rolling d66, each player is given a deck of mission objective cards. Whenever the player would be required to roll a d66, instead shuffle the deck and draw a card. Immediately prior to deployment or at any time thereafter (perhaps after a certain unit got killed), players may search for, reveal to the other players and remove the following cards under the following conditions:
You may remove
-If you have no units in your army capable of shooting- Overwhelming Firepower
-If you have no units in your army capable of charging- Blood and Guts
-If you don't have any characters or if your opponent has no characters- Hungry for Glory
-If your opponent has no units capable of making/failing a morale, pinning or fear test- Psychological Warfare
-If you have no psykers in your army- Harness the Warp
-If the enemy never began the game with a warlord- Kingslayer
-If your enemy has no psykers in their army- WitchHunter
-If your enemy has no flyers/FMCs in their army- Scour the Skies
-If your enemy has no characters in their army- Assassinate
-If your enemy has no gun emplacements or buildings in their army- Demolitions
-If the enemy has no tanks, MCs (including super heavies/gargs)- Big Game Hunter


Charge through cover

If only a single model in the charging unit must force a difficult terrain test for the unit, and this could not have easily been anticipated before the unit's models had already been moved, then the model does not force the rest of the unit to take a difficult terrain test. Judge required whenever a charge is needed to determine what counts as 'easily anticipated'. (I am listing this because there might be occasions where you declare a charge, your dice roll means you 'just make it'. You move your models into position, and then discover that the last one or two models cant move into position properly without wrapping around the enemy unit and going through difficult terrain, which was only really foreseeable once all the other models in the unit had been placed. There's far too much argument to be had if you then need to remember where each model when you 'reset the whole units position').


FOC

Models from no more than 2 codexes may be included in your army.
A maximum of 2 combined arms detachments, 1 allied detachment, 1 fortification and 2 formations may be included as part of a battle-forged army.
In unbound armies, with the exception of troops choices, no unit may be selected more than 3 times per army. (An army may still include more than normal numbers of slots for each combat role; for example an unbound space marine army may include 3 thunderfire cannons and 3 predators, they may not however take 4 or more thunderfire cannons).


Psychic Abilities Out of Hand (looking at you invisibility)

The number of warp charge points needed to cast a psychic ability is equal to it's warp charge cost + 1 warp charge for each time the psychic ability has already been cast this turn.


Conjuration Shenanigans

Any force wishing to use conjuration psychic abilities must pick a selection of models (up to 1 full sized units worth, with no model mixing) that they may summon, this step follows the psychic power selection step during pregame. Any psykers wishing to conjure a unit may only use models from the selected pool. If there are not enough models available to form a unit then the psychic ability resolves without any models being placed on the table. If there are enough models to form a unit of the minimum size needed to create the unit they may come into play, even if this means 2 conjured units from the same starting selection are on the table at once as separate units.

Breng77 wrote:

Love the irony that daemon summoning needs to go, and Gw put it in the game is not a good enough reason....but that same reason is good enough for unbound armies....lol.

I was going to post this almost word for word. I found it amusing as well.

 undertow wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Love the irony that daemon summoning needs to go, and Gw put it in the game is not a good enough reason....but that same reason is good enough for unbound armies....lol.

I was going to post this almost word for word. I found it amusing as well.

You meant Yarrick and Gazghull leading a unit of guardians isn't reason enough?

niv-mizzet wrote:
Sort of. Except those armies don't actually pay any points towards it, and have no expectations of participating in the psychic phase.

But armies that have the option to pay points towards it and choose not to do so, or to do so only to a small degree should have the same capability as the armies that are geared towards being psychic-heavy?

I'm not sure summoning armies are worth tooling against in an official tournament environment, to be honest. They take far too long to accomplish things due to the rolls for summoning, deepstriking, keeping a horde style army moving, etc. An aggressive time clock limit in tournaments ought to be enough to curb the more abusive summoning lists.

 Tomb King wrote:

 undertow wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Love the irony that daemon summoning needs to go, and Gw put it in the game is not a good enough reason....but that same reason is good enough for unbound armies....lol.

I was going to post this almost word for word. I found it amusing as well.

You meant Yarrick and Gazghull leading a unit of guardians isn't reason enough?

No it's not. I really don't care too much about the fluff in this game other than knowing the bare bones of it. IMO most of the fluff in the various army books comes across like bad fan fiction to me. I've always thought that there are three parts (at least) to this hobby:

- Appreciation and knowledge of the fluff (in codex, BRB and various Black Library novels)
- Modeling, Painting and Converting
- Gameplay and List Building

I love the gameplay and listbuilding part. I love the modeling, painting and conversion stuff almost as much. However, the fluff takes a distant third place for me. I know people that will only play a given army if they can 'get behind' the fluff. They'll switch armies when a new book comes out if they don't like the changes to the fluff. For me, I won't put a model on the table if I don't like how it looks. I want to run a Nurgle Daemon army, but I can't stand the current GUO model so I'll wait until a new one comes out.

And we're talking about tournament rules here, fluff shouldn't even be a consideration.

Back to the discussion of Warp Charge caps. In 6E I ran a Tzeentch Flying Circus consisting of Fateweaver, one Nurgle Prince, two Tzeentch Princes two troops (usually 1x Horrors and 1x Plaguebearers) and added other units as needed to hit various point limits. Fatweaver was usually casting a buff (Endurance, Iron Arm or Invis) then shooting at least two PSAs per turn. The Nurgle Prince (rolling heavy Biomancy) would usually cast a buff and one or two PSAs. The two Tzeentch Princes would generally cast at least one PSA sometimes two depending on what powers they got. Not including the Horrors who didn't shoot a lot unless stuff wandered into range, thats about 13 Warp Charge worth of spells in 6E. In 7E, assuming each Tzeentch Prince and Fateweaver each cast a single WC2 Flickering Fire, that's 15 power dice to have a reasonable chance of all that going off. Those three units only generate 10 dice between them.

As has already been mentioned, for an army who's shooting is almost entirely psychic, the currently published rules are a huge nerf. Fewer powers will be going off even without the ability to deny blessings. Limiting Warp Charge just to balance out Summoning (which I still haven't seen a demonstrated need for) is like cutting off someone's hands to prevent them from smoking. If you have a problem with Summoning it should be addressed to that specific problem instead of hamstringing any other army that uses Psychic powers.

40K (even tournaments) are not serious business. We can afford to take more than a week that some have taken to decide if our tournament rules need sweeping changes.

 undertow wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 undertow wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Love the irony that daemon summoning needs to go, and Gw put it in the game is not a good enough reason....but that same reason is good enough for unbound armies....lol.

I was going to post this almost word for word. I found it amusing as well.

You meant Yarrick and Gazghull leading a unit of guardians isn't reason enough?

No it's not. I really don't care too much about the fluff in this game other than knowing the bare bones of it. IMO most of the fluff in the various army books comes across like bad fan fiction to me. I've always thought that there are three parts (at least) to this hobby:

- Appreciation and knowledge of the fluff (in codex, BRB and various Black Library novels)
- Modeling, Painting and Converting
- Gameplay and List Building

I love the gameplay and listbuilding part. I love the modeling, painting and conversion stuff almost as much. However, the fluff takes a distant third place for me. I know people that will only play a given army if they can 'get behind' the fluff. They'll switch armies when a new book comes out if they don't like the changes to the fluff. For me, I won't put a model on the table if I don't like how it looks. I want to run a Nurgle Daemon army, but I can't stand the current GUO model so I'll wait until a new one comes out.

And we're talking about tournament rules here, fluff shouldn't even be a consideration.

Back to the discussion of Warp Charge caps. In 6E I ran a Tzeentch Flying Circus consisting of Fateweaver, one Nurgle Prince, two Tzeentch Princes two troops (usually 1x Horrors and 1x Plaguebearers) and added other units as needed to hit various point limits. Fatweaver was usually casting a buff (Endurance, Iron Arm or Invis) then shooting at least two PSAs per turn. The Nurgle Prince (rolling heavy Biomancy) would usually cast a buff and one or two PSAs. The two Tzeentch Princes would generally cast at least one PSA sometimes two depending on what powers they got. Not including the Horrors who didn't shoot a lot unless stuff wandered into range, thats about 13 Warp Charge worth of spells in 6E. In 7E, assuming each Tzeentch Prince and Fateweaver each cast a single WC2 Flickering Fire, that's 15 power dice to have a reasonable chance of all that going off. Those three units only generate 10 dice between them.

As has already been mentioned, for an army who's shooting is almost entirely psychic, the currently published rules are a huge nerf. Fewer powers will be going off even without the ability to deny blessings. Limiting Warp Charge just to balance out Summoning (which I still haven't seen a demonstrated need for) is like cutting off someone's hands to prevent them from smoking. If you have a problem with Summoning it should be addressed to that specific problem instead of hamstringing any other army that uses Psychic powers.

40K (even tournaments) are not serious business. We can afford to take more than a week that some have taken to decide if our tournament rules need sweeping changes.

And your tzeetnch army also followed this thing that used to exist, it was called the foc. I'm with you, I don't want to hear about warp caps, that is, I don't want to hear about them until we know what game we're playing. FOC = Job #1

Balancing a sandbox is pretty pointless.

Most important thing I want answered is what the FOC limitations will be. It's a bit difficult to draw up lists without first having an idea of what models I can use.

For example, currently armies can take an extra detachment from their own codex, but I am skeptical of this staying around.

Especially important due to how soon the ATC/NOVA are.

Already covered. Removed.

Played a 1500 point game tonight using the maelstrom missions.

First takes:
I took 4 level 2 psykers into the game and only 3 had maelfic (I rolled very poorly on my powers though so could not really summon more units that could summon. (I summoned 1 LOC, 10 plague bearers, 10 daemonettes, 3x3 flamers, 3x2 screamers). It could of been a lot worse but I had powers 3 and 5 on every psyker after the LOC was brought in. Either way its nice to sit and camp with my IG while I send wave after wave of daemons at my opponent to keep him occupied and score objectives.

The maelstrom missions drastically slow the game down. You have to draw them and then read them and then try to think up your strategy on the fly to execute them. Are 1500pt game lasted for 4 1/2 hours.

Jink is ridiculous now unless you can ignore cover. Was facing off against necrons who dont mind snap shooting. 5 AV 13 vehicles with a 4+ to ignore damage really hurts.

I will try and post a battle report later and provide a link.

I played my first game tonight too, also with Maelstrom missions. My biggest takeaway was that Maelstrom is all about who can churn cards more efficiently. We played at 1k, and I had an unfocused eldar Biel-tan list. Swooping Hawks are awesome in Maelstrom missions because you can put them where you need, score a point, draw a new card, and repeat. Jetbikes, too, have the mobility to get places and keep churning cards.

We deliberately were not trying to break the game, just a couple of casual lists. No crazy summoning or invisibility - he had a libby, I had a farseer and a lone warlock with a jetbike unit. Doom and Guide were the powers with the most impact. Knowing you get the primaris power free if you stick to a discipline is nice.

On topic: I don't think Maelstrom has any place in a tournament. It's too easy for someone to draw into easily scored cards and just churn their objectives quickly, while the other player has to move his men to a specific place, or be stuck discarding only one card/turn.

 LValx wrote:
Most important thing I want answered is what the FOC limitations will be. It's a bit difficult to draw up lists without first having an idea of what models I can use.

For example, currently armies can take an extra detachment from their own codex, but I am skeptical of this staying around.

Especially important due to how soon the ATC/NOVA are.

This.

Personally, I agree with Hulksmash and think double CADs should be given a chance. I know there is some potential for abuse, but I think that potential is minor compared to the options it opens up for players. I was also hardcore against LoWs in 40k, but after the D-weapon Nerf, I am less concerned. However, that may change the first time I see a LoW pick up the Relic...

I think the only thing that really needs a nerf is invisibility.

It really should be a 3 warp charge power.

 Gornall wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Most important thing I want answered is what the FOC limitations will be. It's a bit difficult to draw up lists without first having an idea of what models I can use.

For example, currently armies can take an extra detachment from their own codex, but I am skeptical of this staying around.

Especially important due to how soon the ATC/NOVA are.

This.

Personally, I agree with Hulksmash and think double CADs should be given a chance. I know there is some potential for abuse, but I think that potential is minor compared to the options it opens up for players. I was also hardcore against LoWs in 40k, but after the D-weapon Nerf, I am less concerned. However, that may change the first time I see a LoW pick up the Relic...

I'm also in favor of allowing double FOC with yourself so you got 3 possibilites:

a) Use 1 FOC.

b) Use 1 FOC from your codex and take 1 allied detachment (no CtA)

c) Use 1 FOC from your codex and "ally with yourself" thus take an additional detachment from your codex

That's the absolute maximum though, no 3 detachments or more. Fortifications and Lords of War may be taken on top of each of these detachments; LoW requires explicit consent.

We have already made 7th playable for ATC, and it is a bonkers smoother of a ride. I love it. We had 4 teams threaten to quite the ATC if we did not go to 7th ed and no one was defending 6th.

maelstrom missions can be used in a tourny... TO decides on 10 cards ahead of event, player puts them in any order they want, each card achieved is worth 1 VP

This removes the random and adds a layer of strategy to the game. It also removes the dumb "blow up a building" if your opponent has no buildings... or "Kill a monstrous creature!" if your opponent has none...

As I said multiple times, heralds are very expensive and them along with horrors are extremely fragile (T3 5++). Use the other powerful thing in 7th edition, barrage, TFCs/Biovores/Wyverns etc all will pour wounds and kill them really quickly, and you can't avoid barrage under a roof anymore.

This edition is about mobility/MSU, a really all out summoning army won't have much offense for 1-2 turns. Pod armies, scouting armies, fast armies aka alpha striking armies will utterly decimate a full psychic summoning demon list.

And/or just throw a walker at them, there isn't much demons have to clear AV13 walkers easily.

Bringing down a herald or two early, or bringing horror units down a warp charge ( 15 horrors to 9 horrors -> 1 ML instead of 3), drastically reduces their power levels. With way less psykers and mastery levels, their chance at failing Malefic and/or risking perils increases a lot.

Unless they're having Godly dices, they're not gonna spawn 500 points on Turn 1.

OR, treat it as if you were fighting the old Tervigon-birthing spam army.


if you run a sit back immobile shooting army that doesn't have barrage/arty, and there are LoS-blocking terrain, that's really too bad for you especially given the changes in this edition.

I think lowering the point cost is a must. We have a new phase that at a minimum will take 30 minutes. New missions that have random objectives requires more thinking time lowering the points is a must in my opinion.

Currently working on the comp for the tournament I am running inAugust, what do you guys think of the following
1650 Pts (This is fairly standard for UK tournaments)
FOC
Armies must contain the following
1 Primary CAD detachment

Armies may include up to 1 of the following
1 Allied Detachment (all codexes may ally with themselves)
1 Supplement codex I.e Iyanden, Farsight, Crimson Slaughter.
1 Imperial Knights or Inquistion detachment
1 Formation*
1 LOW

If a formation is from the same army as the Primary CAD this does not take up your additional choice slot.

Psychic Phase
Deny the Witch dice pool - A players deny pool may never exceed more than 3 times the number of dice than their opponents warp charge pool.

A player may never have more than 25% of his original points in summoned or spawned units, on the board at any one time. (413 points rounded up)

Save modifiers
Any 2+ save can only ever be re rolled as a 4+.

LOW
Lord of Wars are never scoring.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Currently working on the comp for the tournament I am running inAugust, what do you guys think of the following
1650 Pts (This is fairly standard for UK tournaments)
FOC
Armies must contain the following
1 Primary CAD detachment

Armies may include up to 1 of the following
1 Allied Detachment (all codexes may ally with themselves)
1 Supplement codex I.e Iyanden, Farsight, Crimson Slaughter.
1 Imperial Knights or Inquistion detachment
1 Formation*
1 LOW

If a formation is from the same army as the Primary CAD this does not take up your additional choice slot.

Psychic Phase
Deny the Witch dice pool - A players deny pool may never exceed more than 3 times the number of dice than their opponents warp charge pool.

A player may never have more than 25% of his original points in summoned or spawned units, on the board at any one time. (413 points rounded up)

Save modifiers
Any 2+ save can only ever be re rolled as a 4+.

LOW
Lord of Wars are never scoring.

I think most of that sounds grand but since the 'free formation' is basically a third ally, you should just make it 3 detachments no more than 2 CAD, counting formations as a detachment. In that way your not catering to certain armies that have access to formations while others do not (well in the same way anyhow).

Conjuring should just be a unit can never have more than one summoned unit on the table at a time, doesn't really matter the points.

1500 to keep it under control and quick.

Oh yeah and feth all 'first blood', dumbest vp ever....

Just as an idea, how would escalating warp charges work for limiting summoning?

For example, the summoning powers work as written when you have no summoned units on the board. For each summoned unit you have on the board, the warp charge cost increases by one. Thus, it is normal to have a summoned unit of daemons, but increasing hordes of daemons become very difficult.

On the other hand, if your summoned daemons get banished, it's not as hard to summon more, as the 'counter' resets.

I'm not doing enough with 40K to be able to test this, but it would be a bit of a 'soft nerf' to summoning, and would leave warp charges alone otherwise. The player who summons a squad of daemons wouldn't be much affected, but the player who bases his build around summoning would need to re-evaluate his strategy (but not be forced to abandon it).

deevil wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Currently working on the comp for the tournament I am running inAugust, what do you guys think of the following
1650 Pts (This is fairly standard for UK tournaments)
FOC
Armies must contain the following
1 Primary CAD detachment

Armies may include up to 1 of the following
1 Allied Detachment (all codexes may ally with themselves)
1 Supplement codex I.e Iyanden, Farsight, Crimson Slaughter.
1 Imperial Knights or Inquistion detachment
1 Formation*
1 LOW

If a formation is from the same army as the Primary CAD this does not take up your additional choice slot.

Psychic Phase
Deny the Witch dice pool - A players deny pool may never exceed more than 3 times the number of dice than their opponents warp charge pool.

A player may never have more than 25% of his original points in summoned or spawned units, on the board at any one time. (413 points rounded up)

Save modifiers
Any 2+ save can only ever be re rolled as a 4+.

LOW
Lord of Wars are never scoring.

I think most of that sounds grand but since the 'free formation' is basically a third ally, you should just make it 3 detachments no more than 2 CAD, counting formations as a detachment. In that way your not catering to certain armies that have access to formations while others do not (well in the same way anyhow).

Conjuring should just be a unit can never have more than one summoned unit on the table at a time, doesn't really matter the points.

1500 to keep it under control and quick.

Oh yeah and feth all 'first blood', dumbest vp ever....

To be honest I'll probably go the other way and just make it one CAD plus one other thing, this makes putting Inquistion in an actual choice you have to think about. And still allows armies like Nids to either use their formations or extra FOC slots.

Yeah I'm going to be having a play around with the missions, we actually play a lot of Last Blood which works quite nicely. I'm working on some randomised secondary objectives, that players will roll at the start of the game if they achieve it at the end of the game they recieve 2Vps stuff like 'Kill the most expensive enemy unit', 'Kill the Most expensive Heavy support' etc that's all very WIP though.

Why fix summoning when we do not even know if it is broken?

Do you want to know what is broken? Wave serpent spam! How about TOs limit Eldar to only 2 wave serpents? That will help fix 7th edition.

From my experience so far I see no need to cap warp charges.

The entire psychic phase is very different and should be played as is unless at some point we'll feel it required to make some changes.
IF there is a feeling that something specific is over powered then clearly this needs to be play tested to identify any issues which I'm sure T.O's of big events are doing just that.

My belief is that we will find that although initial thought is OMG/WTF it won't be as crazy as we first thought.

Like anything armies must adapt to the new edition and that in itself will create a new meta which I think is a pretty fun ride to be on.

The FOC though needs some control.
I would imagine Tournaments will go with one FOC + one Ally or one Formation.

If we forget the rest of the FOC rules and just use page 122 which is exactly what the Throne of Skulls GW events will be using I think that will create the tournament balance we need.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Why fix summoning when we do not even know if it is broken?

Do you want to know what is broken? Wave serpent spam! How about TOs limit Eldar to only 2 wave serpents? That will help fix 7th edition.

Not to mention that there are other codices that can easily spawn free units (Spyders generating 135 pts worth of Scarabs a turn, Tervigons, respawning Gants/Gargoyles) and do it without as much of a risk to themselves/building an entire list around it.

It is very difficult to cast summonings, it'll require 7-8 warp charges to do so. It is also fairly easy to remove things like horrors and heralds, especially when they go second and you've got things such as barrage. Marines with Shrike/Khan can scout up and do early damage. I think this mass paranoia all stems from hearsay. The one battle report that Frontline put out is no evidence or proof of a broken mechanic, there was a lot of luck involved in that game. If we apply extreme circumstances to almost any mechanic we could conclude that it is broken (i.e. a game where every Serpent rolls a 5-6 for the shield, or a game with Wraithknights rolling 6's all day).

The numbers suggest that summoning isn't a particularly broken mechanic, i'll trust that more than some anecdotal evidence.

If you limit Warp Charges you will severely limit the effectiveness of Daemons as they rely on them heavily. The codex has almost no traditional shooting and limiting Warp Charges will mean that Daemons become far less survivable and far less damaging. Picking on one codex doesn't seem like a particularly good idea.

I earlier posted that the warp charges should be limited to 12 cards.
As a marine player i was wrong.
Daemons are supposed to have hordes of them coming through
part of the game.
Its what makes it fun shooting hordes of guys.
Like fighting nids and orks.
Assign kill team to go after psykers
Also part of the new rules are escalation models and lots of shooting models. New imperial armour tamk variants to shoot them with.
I have no issues.
I have big shooting phases while they may not.
Psychics is fine for now.
Invisibilty is an issue, Where are the auspecs lol?

Taking one primary detachment and not double force org makes sense

Eldercaveman wrote:
Armies may include up to 1 of the following
1 Supplement codex I.e Iyanden, Farsight, Crimson Slaughter.

This is a bad rule. Those supplement codices can be taken as primary detachments, not just allies. So you seem to be saying that if you play Farsight Tau as your primary detachment you're not allowed to take any LOW/allies/etc. Just remove this from the list, the other FOC limits already cover taking an allied detachment regardless of whether it's a "main" codex or supplement codex ally and your choice of primary detachment shouldn't have any impact on your other choices.

If a formation is from the same army as the Primary CAD this does not take up your additional choice slot.

This is a really bad rule. You shouldn't get free formations based on which codex they come from. A formation is a formation, count it the same for all armies.

Lord of Wars are never scoring.

I don't really see the point of this. I can take 3x scoring LRBTs and it will be almost as hard to kill as my scoring Baneblade, so why does my Baneblade need to be turned into a non-scoring unit when all the other durable units don't?