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So these types of lists are popping up all over the Army List forum, and I thought it deserved a YMDC thread, to preempt these people from scaring TOs into nerfing Daemons.

In Battle-Forged armies, the Primary Detachment is a single detachment (which includes your Warlord).
In Unbound armies, the Primary Detachment is comprised of all models that come from the same codex your Warlord comes from.
You get ONE Primary Detachment.

As to including all those Heralds....
The Daemon book quite clearly and simply states that "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds...." Heralds are only for the Primary detachment, as no permission is given to take them in any other type of detachment.

There's no permission to take Heralds at all unless Daemons is your Primary Detachment. Once you are Battle-Forged, and Daemons is your Primary, you may only ever take a maximum of four Heralds, since you may only have one Primary Detachment, and you are limited to four Heralds per Primary Detachment.

If you go Unbound...then you just need a Daemon model as an HQ, which makes Daemons your Primary, which means you may take up to four Heralds. STILL no permission to take more than four Heralds.

So four Heralds is the maximum amount you are ever legally allowed to include in an army.


Please note my signature: I play Tzeentch Daemons! I like playing Daemons! I have a horse in this race, and I'm trying to make sure my horse doesn't get steroids! (Which are illegal and harmful to the horse, as well as the horse-game as a whole.)

Wrong.

Heralds are listed as a legal choice in the HQ section.

What your referring to, is an additional rule allowing 4 heralds to take up 1 slot.

It in no way removes the option to take a herald from the list of hq options.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Wrong.

Heralds are listed as a legal choice in the HQ section.

What your referring to, is an additional rule allowing 4 heralds to take up 1 slot.

It in no way removes the option to take a herald from the list of hq options.

You may not do anything unless you have permission to do it. You only have permission to take a maximum of four Heralds. The little box in the Daemon codex at the start of the Herald section quite clearly states this.

BRB Unbound Armies wrote:simply use whichever units from your collection you want

Sorry, this rule pretty much shoots down any argument.
There's your permission right there.

Yeah, Elric is right. The bit about them taking up a single slot is totally separate from the bit about taking up to four of them.

 grendel083 wrote:

BRB Unbound Armies wrote:simply use whichever units from your collection you want

Sorry, this rule pretty much shoots down any argument.
There's your permission right there.

Codex trumps Rulebook when there's a conflict. There happens to be a conflict. Thus, Daemon restrictions win out.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

BRB Unbound Armies wrote:simply use whichever units from your collection you want

Sorry, this rule pretty much shoots down any argument.
There's your permission right there.

Codex trumps Rulebook when there's a conflict. There happens to be a conflict. Thus, Daemon restrictions win out.

Whats the Conflict?

All the rules in the codex are based on an Army using an FOC chart.

Unbound armies don't. No conflict.

And if there was, no unbound army could ever be created as there's no "permission" to be chosen outside the FOC, due to this believed conflict.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Wrong.

Heralds are listed as a legal choice in the HQ section.

What your referring to, is an additional rule allowing 4 heralds to take up 1 slot.

It in no way removes the option to take a herald from the list of hq options.

You may not do anything unless you have permission to do it. You only have permission to take a maximum of four Heralds. The little box in the Daemon codex at the start of the Herald section quite clearly states this.

I sugget you use the search function, and take a look at all the threads that hashed this out a year ago.

Every hq option listed in the codex is a legal choice for any detachment you have. That paragraph is not giving permission to take heralds. It tells you that in a primary detachment you may take 4 heralds counting as 1 hq slot.

 BarBoBot wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Wrong.

Heralds are listed as a legal choice in the HQ section.

What your referring to, is an additional rule allowing 4 heralds to take up 1 slot.

It in no way removes the option to take a herald from the list of hq options.

You may not do anything unless you have permission to do it. You only have permission to take a maximum of four Heralds. The little box in the Daemon codex at the start of the Herald section quite clearly states this.

I sugget you use the search function, and take a look at all the threads that hashed this out a year ago.

Every hq option listed in the codex is a legal choice for any detachment you have. That paragraph is not giving permission to take heralds. It tells you that in a primary detachment you may take 4 heralds counting as 1 hq slot.

Allied detachments in 6th for example could take a single Herald, as they were a valid HQ choice.
That's not a primary detachment after all.

 BarBoBot wrote:

Every hq option listed in the codex is a legal choice for any detachment you have.

This cannot be the case. If it were, then I could take Honour Guard without a Chapter Master, or Ghost Knights without Mordrak, or a Crisis Bodyguard Team without a Commander, or a Tyrant Guard Brood without a Hive Tyrant, or an Inquisitorial Warband (as an Elite) without an Inquisitor.
There are more things to consider than simply, "Is it in the HQ slot?" In the case of Heralds, there is a specific permission governing their choice: your Primary Detachment must be Daemons, and you may take up to four.
"Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos." There's nothing that allows you to take more than four. That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Allied detachments in 6th for example could take a single Herald, as they were a valid HQ choice.
That's not a primary detachment after all.

I don't know what "valid HQ choice" means (it's not a phrase from the rulebook), but there are specific requirements you must fulfil in order to take Heralds: Daemons must be the primary detachment. You couldn't take an allied Herald in 6e. But that's no longer the issue, since 6e is dead.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I don't know what "valid HQ choice" means (it's not a phrase from the rulebook),

That would be an HQ choice that is valid. I don't just speak in rulebook words

but there are specific requirements you must fulfil in order to take Heralds: Daemons must be the primary detachment. You couldn't take an allied Herald in 6e. But that's no longer the issue, since 6e is dead.

You could indeed. But because it wasn't a Primary, you couldn't take 4. Only select a single Herald, same as any other HQ choice.


"Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds"
Note it doesn't say "May only be taken in a Primary".
It says "Each Primary...". If it's not a Primary it doesn't apply. So in the case of Allied, you take them as normal, but can't use the rule for Primaries.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:

Every hq option listed in the codex is a legal choice for any detachment you have.

This cannot be the case. If it were, then I could take Honour Guard without a Chapter Master, or Ghost Knights without Mordrak, or a Crisis Bodyguard Team without a Commander, or a Tyrant Guard Brood without a Hive Tyrant, or an Inquisitorial Warband (as an Elite) without an Inquisitor.

Or a Command Squad without one of the listed commanders? Please tell me that's the way we're all doing it now...

Eric, it is pretty clear what the context of that rule is. Much like the Iyanden rule which allows you to take 5 Spiritseers as a single HQ choice.

 grendel083 wrote:
Only select a single Herald, same as any other HQ choice.

How do I have permission to ignore the restrictions on Heralds, stating may be included in a Primary Detachment, and not stating they may be included in any other detachment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
So in the case of Allied, you take them as normal, but can't use the rule for Primaries.

How does one take them as normal? Please give some rules quotes, because I haven't actually found ANYTHING that really explains (without heavy inferences on my part) how to select my army.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Only select a single Herald, same as any other HQ choice.

How do I have permission to ignore the restrictions on Heralds, stating may be included in a Primary Detachment, and not stating they may be included in any other detachment?

Because there isn't a restriction. It doesn't say they may only be included in Primaries.

Read it again, here it is "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds".
Where does that say they can only be included in Primaries? It doesn't.
But if they are then each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Only select a single Herald, same as any other HQ choice.

How do I have permission to ignore the restrictions on Heralds, stating may be included in a Primary Detachment, and not stating they may be included in any other detachment?

Because there isn't a restriction. It doesn't say they may only be included in Primaries.

Read it again, here it is "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds".
Where does that say they can only be included in Primaries? It doesn't.
But if they are then each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds.

I have permission to include "up to four Heralds" in my Primary Detachment. I have no permission to include Heralds in any other type of detachment. If you think I do, please quote the rules giving that permission. (Use quotations.)

If we read it your way, then you can have an Unbound Army like this:
1xFarseer, Warlord (Eldar Primary)
Infinity x Heralds (not Primary)
--but we cannot have an Unbound army like this:
Infinity x Heralds (Daemon Primary)
because I'm only allowed up to four Heralds in a Primary.

My reading doesn't create the shenanigans that yours does, and also closes a loophole, all while abiding by the letter of the rules.

I think the thread means well, but you're not going to convince anyone that their attempt at game-breaking shenanigans is illegal here, because people like justification that their list is okay.

Good comparison with Honor Guard sans captain or Ghost Knights without Modrak, sadly the first week of a new book is about people finding loopholes and trying to gain whatever advantage they can.

Unbound made this a little bit hazier, but you are correct on the primary attachment restrictions. It feels like everyone went crazy with the "zomg I can take 15 _____" as a joke, now some are trying to make that a reality.

I don't agree. The text box for the restrictions on choosing heralds is followed by the individual listing for the heralds covered by the rule. I think the OP is reading the RAW correctly in this case, with one small caveat - the text box states that "each primary detachment in your army may..." which implies that they mean something different than the new BRB. I'd probably say that the new book definition of primary detachment takes precedence here, but I'm sure others would like to take a rhetorical pickax to it just to see what happens.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I have permission to include "up to four Heralds" in my Primary Detachment. I have no permission to include Heralds in any other type of detachment.

So you're saying you have no permission to add any HQ to any non-primary detachment?

I can't add a Warboss to an Allied Ork Detachment?
If there's permission for that (there is) then there's permission to include a Herald.
But only one per slot, as it's not a Primary, so can't use the rule to take 4.

There was never a restriction saying they can't be taken in a non-primary detachment.
If you think there is, please quote it.

If we read it your way, then you can have an Unbound Army like this:
1xFarseer, Warlord (Eldar Primary)
Infinity x Heralds (not Primary)

That's valid.

--but we cannot have an Unbound army like this:
Infinity x Heralds (Daemon Primary)
because I'm only allowed up to four Heralds in a Primary.

It could be argued it's not valid.
But only by claiming a non-FAQ'd 6th ed restriction overrides the permission to "simply use whichever units from your collection you want". Not a strong argument.

My reading doesn't create the shenanigans that yours does, and also closes a loophole, all while abiding by the letter of the rules.

Yours breaks the core rule of unbound armies. The very nature of the beast. It's called unbound for a reason, it has very few rules, and you're suggesting breaking the core one: "simply use whichever units from your collection you want".

I just posted this in the Warlock thread, but ill leave it here as well.

From the rule book, 7th edition, pg 117, top right corner.

"If you use the Unbound method, then once you chose your Warlord, every model in your army that has the same Faction (pg 118) as your Warlord is considered to be part of the Primary Detachment for all rules purposes. Of course, in an Unbound army, these models are not bound by any Detachment restrictions and do not receive command benefits." -emphasis, mine

 grendel083 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

--but we cannot have an Unbound army like this:
Infinity x Heralds (Daemon Primary)
because I'm only allowed up to four Heralds in a Primary.

It could be argued it's not valid.
But only by claiming a non-FAQ'd 6th ed restriction overrides the permission to "simply use whichever units from your collection you want". Not a strong argument.

I think following the rules is, in fact, a quite strong argument.

simply use whichever units from your collection you want.

This is the only relevant rule you've quoted so far, and it is a nice one. However, there's much more to playing a game than simply plopping down whatever models/units I am holding in my hot little hand. Points limit is one. Alliance levels (for deployment, if nothing else) is another.
You still haven't got around the Daemon trumps BRB.
And I'd like someone to explain why I may take Ghosts without taking Mordrak; explain why I may take Dedicated Transports without the parent unit; explain why I may take Haemonculi without a different DE HQ.

You've got a lot of 'splainin' to do.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
I just posted this in the Warlock thread, but ill leave it here as well.

From the rule book, 7th edition, pg 117, top right corner.

"If you use the Unbound method, then once you chose your Warlord, every model in your army that has the same Faction (pg 118) as your Warlord is considered to be part of the Primary Detachment for all rules purposes. Of course, in an Unbound army, these models are not bound by any Detachment restrictions and do not receive command benefits." -emphasis, mine

Hmm. Yup, I buy that the unbound version works as spam-ily as ever, but I still think the BF version is limited to 4 heralds regardless of size.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
As to including all those Heralds....
The Daemon book quite clearly and simply states that "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds...." Heralds are only for the Primary detachment, as no permission is given to take them in any other type of detachment.

.

extremefreak17 wrote:
"If you use the Unbound method, then once you chose your Warlord, every model in your army that has the same Faction (pg 118) as your Warlord is considered to be part of the Primary Detachment for all rules purposes. Of course, in an Unbound army, these models are not bound by any Detachment restrictions and do not receive command benefits." -emphasis, mine

That settles that. You are not bound by detachment restrictions. Take as many as you want. In the Primary detachment no less.

Eric, you might want to go back and amend the incorrect info you posted in all those army list threads, so as not to mislead people.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

simply use whichever units from your collection you want.

This is the only relevant rule you've quoted so far, and it is a nice one. However, there's much more to playing a game than simply plopping down whatever models/units I am holding in my hot little hand. Points limit is one. Alliance levels (for deployment, if nothing else) is another.
You still haven't got around the Daemon trumps BRB.
And I'd like someone to explain why I may take Ghosts without taking Mordrak; explain why I may take Dedicated Transports without the parent unit; explain why I may take Haemonculi without a different DE HQ.

You've got a lot of 'splainin' to do.

Points limits is at the start of "Army Selection Methods", you still need to stick to that.
Alliance levels still apply, as per the "Faction" rules.

Let's keep it simple and stick to one example:
"Can you take a dedicated transport, without the parent unit, in an Unbound army?"

This is a bit detached from the Herald question. Honestly I want to say no, but the quote above, and the rule on not being bound by detachment restrictions would seem to indicate yes.

Back to Heralds, assuming the above two rules don't apply, and the restriction of 4 per primary does, then choose a Daemon Prince for Codex: Chaos Space Marines as your Warlord. Now the Heralds aren't in a Primary, and the restriction is irrelevant.

But also remember we're all using (at least) 6th ed Codex's that haven't been FAQ'd for 7th.
And hope that your opponent would never be dirty enough to bring the unending spawn list.
And that even GW isn't allowing unbound armies in their tournaments.

ninja'd

So, just to be clear--in an unbound list this crap sticks, but not in a Battleforged list? In that case, only Daemon-primary armies can take heralds, and then only 4?

Otherwise I CAN take a Command Squad as an HQ choice in a SM army, with no other HQs at all. Right?

 Jimsolo wrote:
So, just to be clear--in an unbound list this crap sticks, but not in a Battleforged list? In that case, only Daemon-primary armies can take heralds, and then only 4?

Assuming Combined Arms detachments being used? Currently in a Battleforged you'd be restricted to 4 in your primary (of which now you can only ever have 1) per HQ slot, and one per slot in your non-primary.

Otherwise I CAN take a Command Squad as an HQ choice in a SM army, with no other HQs at all. Right?

In unbound, it looks like, yes. Battleforged you still follow the restrictions.

 Jimsolo wrote:
So, just to be clear--in an unbound list this crap sticks, but not in a Battleforged list? In that case, only Daemon-primary armies can take heralds, and then only 4?

Otherwise I CAN take a Command Squad as an HQ choice in a SM army, with no other HQs at all. Right?

Do command squads have a restriction similar to how crisis bodyguards can only be taken if you take a commander? If so, then no, you may not take them without fulfilling the requirements.

Heralds have no such restriction. Their unit entry says nothing about being limited to certain detachments.

What is says is that instead of taking up a slot for each herald, you can take 4 in a primary detachment using only 1 slot. Nowhere in that rule is there a restriction to only ever being in primary detachments.

 BarBoBot wrote:
ave no such restriction. Their unit entry says nothing about being limited to certain detachments.

You don't need a restriction when you have a very explicit, specific permission.

For example:
My army wants some Ghost Knights. When I look at the unit entry, there is a little box on GKp82 that shows Ghost Knights at 40ppm, unit composition 1-5. There are no further restrictions in that box. "Yay!" I think. "Ghosts for me!" However, looking at a different place in the book, I see that I have permission to take Ghosts only if I have Mordrak in my army. I do not need something saying, "No Ghosts unless Mordrak" when I DO have something that says, "An army that includes Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights."

And in exactly the same vein (with the same wording, no less):
My Army wants a Tzeentch Herald. When I look at the unit entry, there is a little box on Daemonp95 that shows Tzeralds at 45ppm, unit composition 1. There are no further restrictions in that box. "Yay!" I think. "All the Tzeralds for me!" However, looking at a different place in the book, I see that I have permission to take Tzeralds only if I have a Primary Detachment of Daemons. I do not need something saying, "No Heralds unless Primary" when I DO have something that says, "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos."

These two situations are perfectly identical, even down to both units (Ghosts and Heralds) being an HQ choice.
So let's have someone try and prove that you can take Ghosts without taking Mordrak. I say you must have Mordrak in order to take Ghosts, and that you cannot take Ghosts without Mordrak. I say that you must have a Primary Detachment of Daemons in order to take any Heralds (and that you may not take more than four Heralds), and that you cannot take Heralds in a non-Primary Detachment.